Accusations Of White Genocide Derail US-South Africa Meeting

Summary

Summary of "Accusations Of White Genocide Derail US-South Africa Meeting"
The NPR Politics Podcast
Release Date: May 21, 2025

In this episode of The NPR Politics Podcast, hosts Miles Parks, Jimena Bustamante, and Mara Liasson delve into the strained relationship between the United States and South Africa, focusing on President Donald Trump's recent accusations of "white genocide" against South African farmers. The discussion also explores significant shifts in U.S. immigration policy, particularly concerning the resettlement of white South African refugees, and broader implications for U.S. immigration practices.

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1. Tense Diplomatic Engagement: Trump Meets Ramaphosa

The episode begins with an analysis of the recent meeting between South African President Cyril Ramaphosa and U.S. President Donald Trump, highlighting the tense backdrop against which the discussion unfolded.

Mara Liasson explains the context:
"Donald Trump has accused the South African government of standing by while tremendous numbers of white farmers are killed, labeling it as a genocide, despite lacking evidence for such claims." [02:10]

During the meeting, Trump presented a dramatized and misleading representation of violence against white farmers by dimming the lights and displaying a video that purportedly showed thousands of white crosses symbolizing murdered farmers. Liasson emphasizes the lack of context and evidence behind these accusations:
"He seemed to suggest that these were thousands of white crosses, each one representing a white farmer who was murdered. That has no context and no evidence behind it." [02:49]

2. Ramaphosa's Response and Diplomatic Strategy

Facing Trump's unfounded allegations, President Ramaphosa maintained his composure and countered the narrative effectively.

Jimena Bustamante highlights Ramaphosa's diplomatic maneuvering:
"He said if there was an African farmers genocide, these three gentlemen, he pointed to these three white gentlemen who are either members of his government or big supporters, wouldn't be here with me today." [03:28]

Ramaphosa redirected the conversation towards collaborative efforts to combat crime, seeking U.S. investment and technological support:
"We do have a crime problem in this country. We need to work with you, our great partner on this. We need tech, we need Starlinks, we need all sorts of other crime-fighting machinery." [10:58]

This strategy underscores South Africa's focus on strengthening bilateral relations despite the contentious rhetoric.

3. U.S. Immigration Policy Shifts: Resettling White South African Refugees

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the U.S. government's recent actions to resettle white South African refugees, a move that has sparked controversy and raised questions about immigration priorities.

Jimena Bustamante details the expedited process for these refugees:
"The first code cohort of white South African refugees was brought by the U.S. Government to the United States. This happened really fast, with background checks completed within weeks or months, funded through a different pot of money within Health and Human Services." [04:17]

Contrastingly, other refugee resettlements, such as those from Afghanistan, have faced delays and funding challenges:
"Hundreds of people from all over the world, including Afghani refugees who assisted U.S. Armed Forces, had their opportunities put on pause." [06:05]

Secretary of State Marco Rubio has endorsed this selective resettlement, indicating the possibility of more white South Africans being admitted:
"More white South Africans can apply for refugee status and might be brought to the United States in the coming months." [06:05]

4. Broader Immigration Developments: Migrants Sent to South Sudan

The episode also addresses recent developments in U.S. immigration policy involving the deportation of migrants to third-party countries, specifically South Sudan.

Jimena Bustamante explains the situation:
"Several lawyers discovered their clients were potentially being sent to South Sudan within hours, including migrants from Central and South America and Asia." [12:18]

These removals bypass traditional processes, raising legal and humanitarian concerns. A federal judge has questioned the administration's adherence to court orders, emphasizing the need for due process and credible fear screenings:
"There needs to be a clearer, more time due process for people to contest their removals to these third countries." [12:18]

Liasson raises concerns about the conditions in South Sudan, noting the uncertainty surrounding the treatment of deported individuals:
"We don't really know if they'll be imprisoned or face other hardships, unlike with El Salvador where specific prisons are known destinations." [14:00]

5. Trump's White Identity Politics and Its Impact

Mara Liasson connects Trump's accusations to his broader political strategy centered on white identity politics:
"This is probably the purest form of white identity politics of which he is an expert practitioner. The idea that there was genocide of white farmers in South Africa resonates deeply with his MAGA base." [07:54]

She attributes Trump's fixation on the issue to influences from right-wing media and prominent supporters like Elon Musk:
"This story has been circulating in right-wing media for years, and Trump picked it up from shows like Tucker Carlson's. It also fits with his message of white identity politics." [09:41]

6. Implications for U.S.-South Africa Relations and Immigration Policy

The episode concludes by reflecting on the broader implications of these interactions and policies.

Liasson suggests that despite the public theatrics, behind-the-scenes dealings may continue to foster U.S.-South Africa relations based on mutual interests like investment:
"If Donald Trump thinks it's in the interest of the United States to make some business deals with South Africa, he will continue to do so, even while talking about conspiracy theories publicly." [10:58]

Bustamante and Liasson emphasize the ongoing tensions in U.S. immigration policies, highlighting the administration's attempts to bypass legal constraints and the judiciary's role in challenging these actions:
"The Trump administration is pushing the bounds of its immigration authority, using different agencies and finding new destinations to comply with court orders." [15:03]

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Notable Quotes

• Mara Liasson [02:10]:
  "Donald Trump has accused the South African government of standing by while tremendous numbers of white farmers are killed, labeling it as a genocide, despite lacking evidence for such claims."

• Jimena Bustamante [04:17]:
  "The first code cohort of white South African refugees was brought by the U.S. Government to the United States. This happened really fast, with background checks completed within weeks or months."

• Mara Liasson [07:54]:
  "This is probably the purest form of white identity politics of which he is an expert practitioner. The idea that there was genocide of white farmers in South Africa resonates deeply with his MAGA base."

• Jimena Bustamante [12:18]:
  "Several lawyers discovered their clients were potentially being sent to South Sudan within hours, including migrants from Central and South America and Asia."

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Conclusion

This episode of The NPR Politics Podcast offers a comprehensive analysis of the fraught dynamics between the U.S. and South Africa, exacerbated by President Trump's unfounded claims of "white genocide." It highlights significant shifts in U.S. immigration policy that prioritize the resettlement of white South African farmers amid broader constraints on refugee admissions. Additionally, the discussion underscores the legal and ethical challenges posed by the administration's recent actions to deport migrants to third-party countries like South Sudan. Through expert insights and detailed examination, the podcast provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of the interplay between international diplomacy and domestic immigration policies.

Transcript

[Miles Parks]

This message comes from Hometap. With a home equity investment from Hometap, you get access to your home equity in cash without monthly payments. Use it to pay off debt, pad your emergency fund and more. See if you pre qualify [e-mail] hi.

[Anna]

This is Anna from Atlanta. I am currently on my way to take two of my four cats to the vet for their annual vaccines. They are very unhappy about it and were very vocal until I turned on the NPR Politics podcast. I think Franco's voice was a calming presence and I probably need to hurry up and turn it on again.

[Miles Parks]

This podcast was recorded at 1:47pm on Wednesday, May 21, 2025.

[Anna]

Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but these two will be back in the comfort of their home. I, however, will get to make this trip again in a couple of days with my other two cats. Enjoy the show.

[Miles Parks]

A lot going on there.

[Jimena Bustu]

Poor babies. I know the Franco's voice is there for you.

[Miles Parks]

It's always there. It's always there. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.

[Jimena Bustu]

I'm Jimena Bustu, and I cover immigration.

[Mara Liasson]

And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.

[Miles Parks]

And today on the show, South Africa and another extraordinary White House visit from a world leader. Mara, South African President Cyril Ramaphosa met with President Trump today at a time when relations between the two countries are pretty strained. Can you just lay out the state of play heading into this meeting?

[Mara Liasson]

Well, heading into this meeting, Donald Trump has accused the South African government of basically standing by while tremendous numbers of white farmers are killed. Now, he doesn't have evidence for that, but he has called it a genocide. He's also at odds with the South African government over other issues like, like whether what Israel is doing is Gaza is a genocide. That's what South Africa says it is. They've actually brought a case in the International Court of Justice. Also at odds around the G20 meeting, which is going to be in South Africa. And it is unclear if the United States will attend.

[Miles Parks]

So then getting into this meeting, I would say, Mara, watching it, the first few minutes were pretty normal.

[Donald Trump]

But it is a great honor to have you and I appreciate you called. He called. I don't know where he got my number, but I picked up. He said, I want to come over and see you. That was my honor and thank you very much.

[Miles Parks]

Trump and Ramaphosa talked a little bit about what they were hoping for. And then Trump opened up to questions and there was a Question specifically on this issue that you mentioned, Mara, involving white South Africans. And we'll just play a little bit of what happened there.

[Donald Trump]

Let me see the articles, please, if you would. And excuse me. Turn the lights down. Turn the lights down. And just put this on. It's right behind you, Johan.

[Mara Liasson]

So he dimmed the lights. He started to play a video in what was obviously a plant. And the video showed leaders of a minority party in South Africa singing an apartheid era struggle song called Kill the Boer B O E R, which means farmer or Afrikaner. Part of the video were white crosses on the roadside. And he seemed to suggest that these were thousands of white crosses, each one of them representing a white farmer who was murdered. That has no context and no evidence behind it.

[Miles Parks]

But, you know, as best he could, the South African leader did push back against President Trump and some of the accusations he was making.

[Jimena Bustu]

I would say if there was Africana farmer genocide, I can bet you these three gentlemen would not be here, including my Minister of Agriculture. He would not be with me. So it will take him, President Trump, listening to their stories, to their perspective.

[Miles Parks]

We should note that there is a lot of data that shows that even though white South Africans make up a very small amount of the population, 7%, I think. Right. They have the majority of the farmland. There's all these different statistics about that. There is still wide inequality in favor of white people in South Africa. But Jimena, I want to talk about how this is playing out in American policy because there was a development where the US Government actually acted on some of these accusations to change immigration policy. Can you explain that?

[Jimena Bustu]

Right. So last week we saw the first code cohort of white South African refugees be brought by the US Government from South Africa to be resettled into the United States. And this was pretty significant for a number of reasons. The first being that the process of resettling these individuals was very different from the way that other refugees have entered the United States in terms of this happened really fast. Their background checks occurred within a matter of weeks and maybe a few months, whereas sometimes this can take years for people to go through. The way that this was funded, it was through a different pot of money within Health and Human Services, that is for case management, not regular resettlement. They were brought on a government chartered flight and then they were greeted by high ranking officials out of the Departments of Homeland Security and State, which, you know, most refugees, they arrive in the United States and they're instead greeted maybe by a refugee resettlement agency volunteer, not the Deputy Secretary of State. And so you know, this really highlighted a shift in who the United States wants to prioritize to open their doors in the United States. The second thing is this happened at a time where the rest of refugee resettlement, broadly in the United States is on pause, and refugee resettlement agencies are grappling with federal funding that has stopped mass layoffs and really strained resources.

[Miles Parks]

Has the government responded to any of this in terms of justifying why they are opening the doors to these, you know, few dozen white South Africans at a time when they're closing the doors to all these other people?

[Jimena Bustu]

Federal officials are pretty united in ignoring that question, and they're pretty united in saying that they believe that there is this alleged mass genocide, particularly to the white minority in South Africa, and that the United States stands against genocide and stands against that kind of violence and will help get those people out if they want. Secretary of State Marco Rubio has said that more white South Africans can apply for refugee status and might be brought to the United States in the coming months. Again, at a time in which you have hundreds of people from all over the world, the Afghani refugees, many of those individuals who even assisted US Armed forces in the war, and it's not safe for them to stay in Afghanistan, had plane tickets, were ready to board a plane to the United States, had often even waited years for this opportunity. And now that's been completely put on pause.

[Mara Liasson]

You know, of all the things that Trump has done, I would say this is probably the purest form of white identity politics of which he is an expert practitioner. And the idea that there was genocide of white farmers in South Africa is something that came from the kind of molten core of Trump's MAGA base. It's been around for a long time, and Trump has been quite fixated on it for a long time. So this is something that really resonates with his base. And he was sticking to his guns today. He kept on repeating over and over again that there was this tremendous amount of death among white farmers in South Africa, where the evidence shows that the majority of victims of crime in South Africa are black.

[Miles Parks]

Okay, well, we're going to take a quick break and more on this when we get back.

[Tanya Moseley]

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[Mara Liasson]

Why?

[Miles Parks]

And we're back. So it was clear to me in this meeting this is not the first time President Trump has thought about this issue. Can I just ask, do we know why or how the president became so fixated on the what he sees as the plight of white South Africans?

[Mara Liasson]

Look, this story, which is not backed by facts that white South African farmers are being killed in large numbers, has been circulating in right wing media for many years. It started, I think, for the president by watching a Tucker Carlson show where this story was repeated and the president has fixated on it and has been on it ever since. Now, he also has some prominent white South Africans around him. Elon Musk is one of them. So maybe he was also hearing this from them. Elon Musk has retweeted or reposted on his own social media platform some of these stories. But it also fits in with the bigger Trump message of white identity politics that, you know, what we just heard is that the refugee program has been shut down for people all over the world except this One exception for 59 white South African American farmers. So this is part and parcel with Trump's white identity politics that he has practiced for his whole political career.

[Miles Parks]

Well, this seemed like a pretty tough assignment for President Ramaphosa, right? I mean, this whole thing kind of unravels and you can kind of see on his face. It didn't seem to me that he expected like videos to be played and Trump to be showing him these documents and things like that. How do you feel like it Went from his perspective, Mara, I thought it.

[Mara Liasson]

Went better than it went for Zelensky. I think he was prepared for something, some kind of a Zelensky style ambush. He was very calm throughout. He didn't try to argue with the president as he said. He said if there was African farmers genocide, these three gentlemen, he pointed to these three white gentlemen who are either members of his government or big supporters or champion golfers who are Trump's friends, wouldn't be here with me today. And what I thought was really interesting about the way the South African delegation handled these charges was to say, you know what, we do have a crime problem in this country. We need to work with you, our great partner on this. We need tech, we need Starlinks, we need all sorts of other kind of crime fighting machinery that can help us here. So he kept his eye on his goal, which is to get investment from the United States in South Africa. And it's very possible that, you know, a lot of what happens in the White House is performative and theater. Then they go behind closed doors. And I think if Donald Trump thinks that it's in the interest of, of the United States to make some business deals with South Africa, he will, while publicly talking about this conspiracy theory about white farmer genocide.

[Miles Parks]

Well, Jimena, there was other immigration news overnight. I want to turn to that for a second now. It involves migrants being removed from the United States and sent to South Sudan. Can you explain what's happening there?

[Jimena Bustu]

Right. So, you know, you might remember that the Trump administration is really focusing on these so called third party countries, third countries. So, you know, taking someone that they want to deport from the United States, but their home country won't take them back, send them to an alternative location. And what occurred last night was several lawyers caught wind that their clients were potentially being sent within a matter of hours to South Sudan. And these were not South Sudanese individuals. They were in part from Central and South America, also a few Asian countries as well. So going to South Sudan would have been a drastic change. A federal judge did a few emergency hearings last night to kind of question whether or not a court order that he had issued had been violated by rapidly removing about eight migrants to South Sudan. And earlier today in a hearing, he said that the Trump administration's decision to do that did violate his court order and that there needs to be a clearer, more time due process for people to contest their removals to these third countries before they're taken there. And a part of that is what people call a credible fear screening. You know, giving someone an opportunity to say that they might face particular danger or violence by being sent to a completely different destination.

[Mara Liasson]

Well, Jimena, can I just ask you, these are people who are being sent to these countries, are they going to be imprisoned in these countries? We certainly saw that when they were sent sent to El Salvador.

[Jimena Bustu]

You know, we don't really know. And the Trump administration is also refusing to say if South Sudan is actually the final destination for these migrants. You know, we know that a flight took off and some of them had been told on paper that they might get sent to South Sudan. At one point, South Africa was almost a destination as well. We have seen the government of South Sudan and officials there say that they have not stricken a deal with the United States for this and they are not ready to serve as a third country for the US Looking to remove people to. So kind of the conditions about what people might find themselves in once they get there are really unknown, unlike some of the other deals, particularly with El Salvador, as you mentioned, where there is a primary destination, and that is the notorious Prison Secot.

[Miles Parks]

Is it fair to say that this is starting to fit into a trend of the Trump administration kind of pushing the bounds of his immigration authority when it comes to these court orders?

[Jimena Bustu]

Yes, it definitely is. You know, you are seeing individual fights happening in these district courts, you know, aiming to stop the use of various administrative powers. And then the Trump administration is trying to find ways to go about them, either by using other agencies such as the Pentagon and the Defense Department to remove people instead of Homeland Security or, you know, finding other countries or other destinations to take people to or, you know, finding the spots and the places where they're still able to do these kinds of removals. And so it really becomes a question of if they are trying to violate the court orders or not. So far, there have not been rulings of contempt, but enough judges have kind of warned that if they keep going, that might be where we end up.

[Anna]

All right.

[Miles Parks]

Well, let's leave it there for now. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.

[Jimena Bustu]

I'm Ximena Bustu, and I cover immigration.

[Mara Liasson]

And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.

[Miles Parks]

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.

[NPR]

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[Mara Liasson]

On the Indicator from Planet Money podcast. We're here to help you make sense of the economic news from Trump's tariffs.

[Miles Parks]

It's called in game theory a trigger strategy, or sometimes called grim trigger, which sort of has a cowboy esque ring.

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To it to what exactly a sovereign wealth fund is. For insight every weekday, listen to NPR's the Indicator from Planet Money.