Data Difficulty: How DOGE Could Hurt The Census And More

Summary

Summary of "Data Difficulty: How DOGE Could Hurt The Census And More"

The NPR Politics Podcast
Episode: Data Difficulty: How DOGE Could Hurt The Census And More
Release Date: June 4, 2025
Hosts: Miles Parks, Hansi Le Wang, Stephen Fowler, Adam Pratt

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Introduction

In the June 4, 2025 episode of The NPR Politics Podcast, hosted by Miles Parks alongside Hansi Le Wang and Stephen Fowler, the discussion centers around the Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) and its extensive data collection efforts. The conversation delves into how DOGE's activities, led by Elon Musk, may be undermining the accuracy and reliability of essential government statistics, including the Census.

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DOGE’s Data Collection and Its Implications

Adam Pratt introduces the topic by highlighting that DOGE, under Elon Musk’s leadership, has amassed a significant amount of government data without clear objectives for its use. This accumulation is reportedly complicating the Census Bureau’s ability to gather accurate data.

Hansi Le Wang elaborates on the longstanding issues faced by the Census Bureau, such as declining participation in federal surveys and eroding public trust. She points out that DOGE’s actions are exacerbating these problems by fueling fears about data misuse. Specifically, respondents are increasingly wary of sharing personal information due to concerns that their data might be exploited beyond statistical purposes.

"Participation in these federal surveys and trust in government has been on the decline for decades... DOGE's push to gather government records could have long-term consequences on people's trust in the government."
— Hansi Le Wang [03:52]

Concerns Over Data Misuse and Privacy

Stephen Fowler addresses the procedural safeguards in place to protect sensitive data. He notes that DOGE's access to multiple data sources across various departments is unusual and raises red flags. For instance, a DOGE staffer reportedly has access to sensitive financial data from the Social Security Administration, HR files from the Office of Personnel Management, and student loan data from the Department of Education—a combination rarely seen.

Moreover, DOGE’s lack of transparency regarding the utilization of this data has heightened suspicions. Fowler cites examples where DOGE affiliates have used combined data sets to support controversial policies, such as immigration enforcement and allegations of voter fraud.

"There hasn't been a whole lot of information about what DOGE is using this data for... They're trying to use data they've combined from different agencies for President Trump's immigration enforcement policies or to try to catch claims of people unlawfully voting."
— Stephen Fowler [05:49]

Impact on Government Statistics and Public Trust

The hosts discuss the critical role of accurate government statistics in shaping policy and economic decisions. Hansi emphasizes that unreliable data can distort the monthly jobs reports, economic assessments, and the Census results, which are essential for redistricting and federal funding allocations.

She warns that diminished public trust, particularly among marginalized communities already wary of government surveillance, could lead to significant undercounts in the Census and other surveys. This underrepresentation can have far-reaching political and economic consequences.

"If those numbers are skewed and inaccurate, that could have major economic and political ramifications... we still need monthly jobs numbers, census results for redistricting, for example."
— Hansi Le Wang [06:12]

Government Response and Expert Opinions

When questioned about the government's stance, Hansi Le Wang reveals that the White House downplays the impact of DOGE’s actions on public trust. In contrast, the Census Bureau remains steadfast in its commitment to accurate data collection, leveraging new technologies to enhance data quality.

Experts express skepticism, noting that DOGE’s opaque data practices are damaging the credibility of federal statistics. They argue that without robust privacy safeguards, the consolidation of data sets poses a threat to the integrity of government data.

"Federal agencies have been discussing data sharing and pooling... Critics say what's missing are the safeguards for protecting people's privacy, which is raising a lot of concerns and red flags."
— Hansi Le Wang [12:56]

Legal Challenges and Future Outlook

Stephen Fowler outlines the legal battles arising from DOGE’s data access initiatives. Over a dozen lawsuits are currently in progress, challenging DOGE’s authority to request and utilize data from various state agencies. While some legal motions, such as the temporary restraining order against the USDA’s data requests, are currently on hold, uncertainties remain about the legality of DOGE's actions.

Looking ahead, Fowler anticipates that the effects of DOGE’s data consolidation efforts will become more pronounced, as implementing such an extensive data merger across multiple agencies is complex and fraught with regulatory hurdles.

"We're going to see the full effects of this data consolidation... because it's not as easy as just copy and pasting something into an Excel spreadsheet when you're talking about hundreds of millions of people."
— Stephen Fowler [14:22]

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with a clear concern that DOGE's data practices, driven by unclear motives and lacking transparency, are jeopardizing the reliability of essential government statistics. This predicament not only threatens the accuracy of national data but also erodes public trust, which is crucial for effective governance and policy-making. The ongoing legal challenges and the potential for increased governmental scrutiny suggest that the implications of DOGE's actions will continue to unfold in the coming months.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Hansi Le Wang [03:52]:
  "DOGE's push to gather government records could have long-term consequences on people's trust in the government."

• Stephen Fowler [05:49]:
  "They're trying to use data they've combined from different agencies for President Trump's immigration enforcement policies or to try to catch claims of people unlawfully voting."

• Hansi Le Wang [06:12]:
  "If those numbers are skewed and inaccurate, that could have major economic and political ramifications."

• Hansi Le Wang [12:56]:
  "Critics say what's missing are the safeguards for protecting people's privacy, which is raising a lot of concerns and red flags."

• Stephen Fowler [14:22]:
  "It's not as easy as just copy and pasting something into an Excel spreadsheet when you're talking about hundreds of millions of people."

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and concerns raised in the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners who have not tuned in.

Transcript

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[Adam Pratt]

Hi, this is Adam Pratt in Lindsberg, Kansas, in the 1898 Smoky Valley Roller mills, the only historic mills of its kind in the Midwest that still operates once every year. That's the mill you're hearing in the background. This podcast was recorded at 1:19pm on Wednesday, June 4, 2025. Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but I'll still be enjoying this glorious noise. Okay, here's the show. Love a good trivia timestamp. I did not know that about the mill in Kansas, so thank you. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.

[Hansi Le Wang]

I'm Hansi Le Wang. I cover federal agencies.

[Stephen Fowler]

And I'm Stephen Fowler. I cover government restructuring.

[Adam Pratt]

And today on the show, data, Elon Musk and the team that calls itself the Department of Government Efficiency have gathered a ton of it, but without providing many answers on how or what their ultimate plans are with it. And now it seems like those efforts are actually making it harder for other parts of the government to produce accurate and reliable statistics about the country. Hansi, this is your lane. You are our government, my personal government data guru. So I'm hoping you could just get us up to speed on what you're hearing here.

[Hansi Le Wang]

Oh, my. That's quite a title. Thank you, Miles. I think I've earned it because I covered the Census Bureau. And so they're known to produce the census results as other key statistics as well. And they've had a major problem for decades, fewer people willing to answer survey questions, share their personal information for these government surveys and low levels of trust in the government. And I talked talked to current and former workers for the Census Bureau recently. You know, they conduct these interviews for these ongoing surveys, like the one that produces the monthly jobs report, for example. And some people they're trying to interview have specifically brought up Doge or Elon Musk when they declined to participate. And these workers asked, I'm sure, not to name them because they fear retaliation or they weren't given permission to speak publicly. But they're getting what? More questions about how they know information collected for the survey won't be sold or given away, for example. And the current worker told me they themselves fear the data they're collecting could be misused and the privacy Guarantees things like people's responses will only be used to produce statistics and not share with other federal agencies, including for law enforcement. Those kinds of guarantees enshrined in federal law won't be respected.

[Adam Pratt]

Wow. But as you mentioned, this is not a new problem. Exactly right. This is something that the Census Bureau has been dealing with at some level in the last few years. Can you explain that?

[Hansi Le Wang]

Yeah. You know, participation, like I said, in these federal surveys and trust in government has been on the decline for decades. So not a new problem. But a lot of data experts I talk to are concerned about this push by the DOGE team of the Trump administration to gather government records to amass them for. Really unclear to the full extent what they're trying to do. That could have some long term consequences on people's trust in the government, their perception of what the government is doing with their personal information, a potential weakening of the government's credibility as a steward of people's information. And you can't have reliable, accurate statistics without public trust. And when that takes a hit, that public trust, it can take a very long time to rebuild. In the meantime, the country still needs monthly jobs numbers, census results for redistricting, for example.

[Adam Pratt]

Yeah. I mean, Stephen, you've done a lot of reporting over the last few months on doge's efforts around data. And how real are the fears, I guess, that these people seem to be voicing?

[Stephen Fowler]

Well, Miles, there's a lot of procedures in place to assuage those fears and to make sure that the people that have access to this sensitive data only access what they need to know and why they need to know. It is a big part of this. There's things called the systems of records notice, which is this public information for an agency to say, hey, here's all the data we have, here's how we're collecting it, here's how we're storing it, here's how we're keeping it safe, and here's why we need to use this data. There's been a lot of data access by Doge and not a lot of information. For example, there are fewer than 50 people at the Social Security Administration that have access to the most sensitive financial information that it contains. And there's a Doge staffer that, according to court filings, was given access to that, but also has access to government HR files at the Office of Personnel Management and also has access to student loan data at the Department of Education. And that's not normal. The other thing about DOGE is there hasn't been a Whole lot of information about what they're using this data for. A lot of what Doge has done with this data has been done in secret. And we don't really know other than what's come out in court filings or what has come out with Doge themselves talking about what they've done. Case in point, we have seen examples of Doge and Doge affiliates sort of bragging about using data they've combined from different agencies for President Trump's immigration enforcement policies or to try to catch claims of people unlawfully voting.

[Adam Pratt]

Well, I want to come back to this idea that this broader distrust of the government that seems to be building. Hansi, is impacting how easily census staffers are able to get information. I mean, can you, can you lay out the stakes a little bit? I guess. What would the impact be if, down the road, statistics are less accurate because people are more hesitant to answer?

[Hansi Le Wang]

Well, we're talking about statistics like the monthly jobs numbers that help us understand the state of the U.S. economy, helps move markets. A lot of policy making happens based on those numbers. If those numbers are skewed and accurate, that could have major ramifications, economic ramifications, and then there are political ramifications. If we're talking about the statistics that are produced through the census, the 2030 census is coming up. Those are the numbers used to determine each state's share of congressional seats, electoral college votes. That's data that's used to redraw voting maps at every level of government across the country, not to mention used to allocate federal funding for public services. And so, again, major implications if this data that a lot of us may take for granted is skewed in some way.

[Adam Pratt]

So, Hansi, how has the government responded to this idea that people might be more hesitant to answer questions from the government?

[Hansi Le Wang]

I reached out to the White House and spokesperson Kushta Tsai said in an email that a small group of people refusing to engage with census field representatives is not a new development and that extrapolating some widespread distrust of the census because of Doge is a hard stretch. And I also reached out to the Census Bureau and its acting director, Ron Jarman said that bureau is committed to providing accurate and timely data and that there's new technology and data science helping to modernize data collection and produce and produce high quality statistics efficiently. I think the context to keep in mind is that, you know, a lot of data experts outside the bureau are still concerned that, yes, there has been this long standing issue of low public trust and declining self response rates. They're concerned that all of the controversy surrounding how the Trump administration has handled data, specifically how the Doge team has handled data, that that will have lasting impacts on the public's perception.

[Adam Pratt]

All right, we'll take a quick break, but more on all of this in just a moment.

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[Adam Pratt]

And we're back. So Stephen, I want to focus in on this idea that you brought up a minute ago about data being used potentially for immigration enforcement. You have some new reporting about Doge's request to some state level agencies. Can you talk about that?

[Stephen Fowler]

Yeah. So in recent weeks there has been a push by DOGE to use the data that it's gathered for immigration purposes. One example is doge and the US Department of Agriculture sent a request last month to states asking for data about people that apply for federal food assistance through the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or snap. And what we know through reporting that I did with NPR's Jude Joppy block, is that some of those requests were asking more about data dealing with immigration status and less about other fields like employment history and income levels and things that you would expect to be used to find examples of waste, fraud and abuse. And so this request is raising alarms from some people that may be doge. And USDA is trying to use that data for immigration purposes and trying to identify people that they would like to have removed for the country.

[Hansi Le Wang]

You know, one thing that I think we should keep in mind here is that the federal government statistics have long had problems fully reflecting certain populations in the country. You know, specifically. You know, for example, in the census, people of color have been undercounted, while white people who do not identify as Hispanic have been over counted for decades. And, you know, we see similar disparities in other government statistics. And there's a real fear here that what the Trump administration is doing, how it's handling data, could potentially have more of a chilling effect among some communities, more so than others, and specifically immigrant communities, communities of color that already have lower levels of trust in the federal government and how they might use people's personal information, misuse it, not follow federal laws that protect people's privacy levels that are lower than for people who are white and don't identify as Hispanic. You know, this is according to research that the Census Bureau has done ahead of the 2020 census, for example.

[Adam Pratt]

It's interesting. I have reported on some aspects of this as a voting reporter, and there are, when I talk to voting officials, a lot of wishes and dreams that the government wasn't so siloed that data in all of these different states and all of these different places work together a little bit better. Hansi, I guess as you talk to experts about these fears about what Doge is doing and people's kind of being a little bit more hesitant to give over their information. Are experts kind of worried about that data sharing more broadly, or is it about specifically how it's happening?

[Hansi Le Wang]

It's really about how it's happening and what's not happening. You know, data sharing and kind of a pooling of government data, that concept unto itself is not new and actually has a lot of support within the statistical community. You know, federal agencies have been discussing this. There have been bipartisan commissions and advisory committees that have recommended creating some type of national data service that helps bring together government records across across the federal government in order to produce statistics and with safeguards for protecting people's privacy. And those last bits, you know, that's what's missing, critics of what the Trump administration is doing say, and that's what is raising a lot of concerns and red flags. And it's causing some unease right now among statisticians. Who, you know are not necessarily against the concept of creating more efficiency perhaps to through combining data sets, but, you know, they're interested in it for producing more accurate, more reliable statistics. The Trump administration has not put that at the forefront of what's driving their efforts. And it's really not clear what exactly are all of their motivations are.

[Adam Pratt]

I mean, Stephen, where does this go from here? I mean, are you expecting to get more transparency from the Trump administration on what all this data is going to be used for? Or I mean, what are you watching over the next couple of weeks and months from a data perspective?

[Stephen Fowler]

Well, there are more than a dozen lawsuits that have been filed over Doge's data access at these agencies. They're in various stages of the legal process. In the US Department of Agriculture, there was a lawsuit filed and a motion for a temporary restraining order was withdrawn from the people suing because the USDA said in a statement that we haven't actually collected any data yet because we are following all of the privacy laws and procedures. And so that one is on hold for now, though there are still legal questions about if the USDA can even ask for that data. And I think we're going to see the full effects of this data consolidation, this breaking down silos executive order that the president put forth over the coming weeks and months because it's not as easy as just copy and pasting something into an Excel spreadsheet when you're talking about hundreds of millions of people and all sorts of information about them.

[Adam Pratt]

Wow. So a lot to watch there, but we can leave it there for today. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.

[Hansi Le Wang]

I'm Hansi Le Wang. I cover federal agencies.

[Stephen Fowler]

And I'm Stephen Fowler. I cover government restructuring.

[Adam Pratt]

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.

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