Friday Roundup: Trump's Efforts To Overhaul Bureaucracy, FBI

Summary

Summary of NPR Politics Podcast Episode: "Friday Roundup: Trump's Efforts To Overhaul Bureaucracy, FBI"

Release Date: February 7, 2025

The NPR Politics Podcast, hosted by Tamara Keith, delves into the significant developments surrounding the Trump administration's initiatives to restructure federal bureaucracy and the FBI. This episode provides an in-depth analysis of the controversial "Fork in the Road" directive, legal battles involving FBI agents, and the broader implications for federal employees and national security. Additionally, the episode features a lighter segment, "Can't Let It Go," offering personal anecdotes from the hosts.

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1. Trump's "Fork in the Road" Directive

Overview: The Trump administration introduced the "Fork in the Road" offer to federal employees, presenting them with the choice to resign while retaining their pay and benefits through September. This directive has sparked significant controversy and legal challenges.

Court Proceedings:

• Andrea Hsu explains that Judge George O'Toole, a Clinton appointee in Massachusetts, paused the deadline for federal workers to accept the offer until Monday. This decision allows labor unions, who filed lawsuits against the directive, more time to respond to the government's latest brief. (01:36)

  "He was basically issuing this pause on the deadline... paving the way for another hearing to address the merits of this case." – Andrea Hsu (01:39)

Union Reactions:

• Labor unions argue that the "Fork in the Road" is unlawful. They seek a suspension of the directive until the government revises it to comply with legal standards. The unions point out inconsistencies and confusion in the communication provided to federal employees. (02:43)

  "They want the judge to find that unlawful, and they want the judge to suspend this until the government comes up with a version that they say is in accordance with the law." – Andrea Hsu (02:43)

Employee Perspectives:

• Susan Davis highlights that while some federal workers view the offer favorably—especially those nearing retirement or facing new administrative requirements like mandatory office work—the lack of clarity and legal assurances causes anxiety among employees. Approximately 3% of the workforce has accepted the offer so far, falling short of the administration's goal. (03:53)

  "There are people like that who've said, yeah, this is a pretty good deal." – Andrea Hsu (03:42)

Legal Concerns:

• The directive's ambiguity, especially regarding employment status post-resignation and the possibility of holding multiple jobs, raises legal questions. Susan Davis emphasizes the potential risks of "double dipping," where employees might face repercussions despite official FAQs encouraging private sector employment. (06:31)

  "Some of the confusion around this is why I think that part of the reason why the administration hasn't hit the numbers they were hoping to hit." – Susan Davis (05:40)

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2. Tensions Between the FBI and Department of Justice (DOJ)

FBI Agents' Lawsuit:

• Carrie Johnson reports that FBI agents have sued the DOJ after the Deputy Attorney General demanded a comprehensive list of employees involved in January 6th investigations. The agents fear retaliation and potential threats against their safety, given the contentious nature of the cases they handled. The lawsuits aim to prevent the disclosure of approximately 5,000 names. (10:23)

  "These FBI agents filed lawsuits to try to prevent this list from becoming public." – Carrie Johnson (10:23)

Political Context:

• The host and correspondents discuss the broader political motives behind the DOJ's actions, suggesting an attempt to "purge the deep state" and replace federal workers with loyalists. Susan Davis connects these actions to the legacy of strengthening national security post-9/11, contrasting it with current dismantling efforts by the Republican Party. (07:11)

  "Politically speaking, it is just fascinating to me that the modern infrastructure was born out of the 911 attack... and that same party 20 years later is essentially trying to dismantle it." – Susan Davis (07:11)

Potential Consequences:

• Carrie Johnson highlights the fear among FBI agents regarding job security, especially with high-profile firings already taking place within the DOJ. The atmosphere of fear is exacerbated by President Trump's executive orders targeting government weaponization. (12:22)

  "The remaining lawyers who work with Special Counsel Jack Smith... they've been fired. Senior employees... have been reassigned or have quit." – Carrie Johnson (12:22)

FBI Director Nomination: Kash Patel:

• The episode covers the contentious nomination of Kash Patel as the FBI Director. Carrie Johnson outlines Patel's commitment to enforcing Trump's executive orders, which has raised concerns among Democrats and some Republicans about the future impartiality of the FBI. Notably, former intelligence director William Webster warned that Patel's leadership could signal the end of the FBI as traditionally known. (16:27)

  "If Kash Patel gets to run the FBI, the FBI as we know it is over." – William Webster, letter to Chuck Grassley (16:27)

  Susan Davis adds that Patel's loyalty to Trump is overshadowing his role as an independent operator, reinforcing fears that the FBI will act primarily at the president's behest. (17:25)

  "The idea that, yes, Patel has been a provocateur... it's hard for me to see him as an independent operator versus someone who is going to do exactly what Donald Trump tells him to do." – Susan Davis (17:25)

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3. "Can't Let It Go" Segment

In a departure from the intense political discourse, the hosts engage in the "Can't Let It Go" segment, sharing personal stories and humorous reflections.

Susan Davis' Anecdote:

• Susan Davis humorously connects unrelated events—Beyoncé winning Album of the Year, an Uber charge linked to her grandmother's address, and a heroic act by a young Eagles fan during a plane crash—to suggest that the universe is signaling an Eagles Super Bowl victory. (18:30 – 20:25)

  "It's the universe saying, look, you've had your share." – Susan Davis (19:18)

Tamara Keith's Story:

• Tamara Keith recounts a story about a judge who attempted to avoid jury duty by questioning the impartiality of the process, ultimately leading to his resignation. She also highlights that many town justices in New York do not hold law degrees, emphasizing the casual nature of some judicial appointments. (20:35 – 22:30)

  "In New York, for sort of lower level town justices, you are elected to this post. You need not be a lawyer." – Tamara Keith (22:00)

Carrie Johnson's Observation:

• Carrie Johnson reflects on the distraction caused by celebrities attending award ceremonies, mentioning the NFL Honors Awards and the prominent figures she observed. She humorously notes how these distractions prevent her from focusing on political matters. (22:41 – 24:00)

  "I'm just gonna do a full disclosure, but the most time I spent this morning was looking at the former New England coach Bill Belichick." – Carrie Johnson (22:54)

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4. Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with acknowledgments of the production team and sponsors. The hosts express gratitude to their listeners and encourage political engagement, wrapping up with a light-hearted nod to the Philadelphia Eagles.

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Notable Quotes:

• "They want the judge to find that unlawful, and they want the judge to suspend this until the government comes up with a version that they say is in accordance with the law." – Andrea Hsu (02:43)

• "If Kash Patel gets to run the FBI, the FBI as we know it is over." – William Webster (16:27)

• "It's hard for me to see him as an independent operator versus someone who is going to do exactly what Donald Trump tells him to do." – Susan Davis (17:25)

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This episode of the NPR Politics Podcast provides a comprehensive examination of the Trump administration's strategies to reshape federal agencies, the ensuing legal and political battles, and the implications for both federal employees and national security structures. Through expert analysis and thoughtful discussion, the hosts shed light on the evolving landscape of American politics and governance.

Transcript

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[Andre]

This is Andre from Vermont. I've just checked off one of my bucket list items by riding a motorcycle to the Arctic Circle on the world famous Dalton highway in Alaska.

[Tamara Keith]

This podcast was recorded at 12:13pm Eastern Time on Friday, February 7th.

[Andre]

Things will likely have changed when you hear this, but you can be sure that I'll be back in the saddle attacking my bucket list while driving through Alaska, the Yukon, British Columbia, and ending in Portland, Oregon in two weeks. Enjoy the show.

[Tamara Keith]

That is that is spectacular.

[Susan Davis]

Also sounds kind of cold.

[Tamara Keith]

It does sound cold. And also think, yeah, the saddle. Just thinking that I'm gonna have to suggest this.

[Susan Davis]

My brother does these long motorcycle rides and it's done down to the Keys and through Appalachia and coast to coast. He hasn't done the Circle. I'm going to text him after this pod and tell him he's got his next trip.

[Tamara Keith]

There you go. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.

[Susan Davis]

I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.

[Tamara Keith]

And today we are joined by labor correspondent Andrea Hsu. Andrea, thank you for coming on the pod.

[Andrea Hsu]

Hey, thanks for having me again.

[Tamara Keith]

Yes. Well, we have you here because there is a lot to talk about. So the Trump administration gave an offer to federal employees to resign now and keep their pay and benefits through September. That fork in the road is, at.

[Andrea Hsu]

Least for now, paused until Monday.

[Tamara Keith]

So, Andrea, tell us what happened in court yesterday.

[Andrea Hsu]

Yeah, so it was a virtual hearing. The judge, George O'Toole, he's a Clinton appointee. He was in his courtroom in Massachusetts, and he started by saying this is going to be really quick. He was basically issuing this pause on the deadline, pushing the deadline for federal workers to accept this fork in the road offer until Monday. And the reason was because the government had just filed a brief and he wanted to give the plaintiffs, the labor unions that sued to block this until today, Friday to reply. So on Monday, he scheduled another hearing at 2pm and that one's going to be in person in Boston. And he's going to hear the merits of this case. And then he did order the government to Inform all the 2.3 million federal workers that this went to, that this deadline has been paused. And those people start getting those emails around 5:00 yesterday afternoon.

[Tamara Keith]

So let's go back one step, which is These labor unions that sued the government, what do they want in the end?

[Andrea Hsu]

Yeah, what they're asking for, they want Judge O'Toole to find that this whole thing, they're calling it the Fork Directive, this offer to federal employees that you can resign from your jobs and keep your pay through the end of September. They want the judge to find that unlawful, and they want the judge to suspend this until the government comes up with a version that they say is in accordance with the law. And I'll quote from the court doc here until the defendants can provide adequate legal justification for this Fork Directive and adequate legal assurance of its terms. And that's really a nod to how much confusion there has been. There have been multiple versions that employees have gotten about what they're actually agreeing to. And then the labor unions are asking that after the government comes up with this new version that is in accordance with the law, that people are given 60 days because they said, you know, people were given originally given nine days to decide whether to leave their government jobs. And that's just a really big decision to make in a short amount of time.

[Susan Davis]

Although I think, Andrew, it's worth noting that for a lot of federal workers, this might actually be a really good deal. Eight months full pay, full benefits is about a good a buyout offer, as you can get from any American employer today.

[Andrea Hsu]

And the White House said that yesterday. I mean, I think the White House actually said, well, good, you know, now federal workers have a few extra days to decide whether to take this once in a lifetime offer. And, you know, I have heard from some people. I've talked to one person who is taking this offer because, you know, they're really close to retirement. They were not about to retire. And, you know, the offer is actually that you can do both. You can resign now and still get your full retirement. So there are people like that who've said, yeah, this is a pretty good deal. There are people who are working remotely. Maybe they were even hired to work for a remote job. You know, now Trump has ordered all federal workers to work from the office full time, and they maybe don't even live near an office. So for them, this might also be an okay option. And then there are, of course, people who, like, just don't like their jobs, and they've been looking anyway. So I think it's a really personal decision. And I think those who are willing to take some risk, you know, there's some uncertainty about what the terms are and whether the government's going to honor them. If your risk tolerance Is, you know, moderate to high. Maybe this is an okay option.

[Tamara Keith]

Yeah. I mean, it's a really great offer if you actually get what they say that you would get.

[Susan Davis]

Yeah.

[Tamara Keith]

And as you say, Andrea, there has been sort of a lack of clarity there. There have been multiple descriptions of what the deal actually is. Yeah.

[Andrea Hsu]

And even, you know, as to whether you have to work or not. The original email that went out wasn't at all clear that you, you were going to be put on leave. I think it just said you wouldn't have to come into the office. It was only when an FAQ was added to the page that said, oh, you know, there's no expectation that you're going to have to work. And then some people have gotten these sample contract agreements that now say, oh, actually you have to work until the end of February. And then IRS workers actually got something that said, no, actually you have to work through May 15. Of course, past tax filing season.

[Susan Davis]

The confusion around this is why I think that part of the reason why the administration hasn't hit the numbers they were hoping to hit. They wanted 10% of the workforce. That's 2.4 million people to take that. So it would have been 240,000. I think the best numbers we have now, about 65,000 have raised their hands.

[Andrea Hsu]

That's about 3%.

[Susan Davis]

Yeah. They're not quite there, but I think you could argue that more people might be willing to take this offer if they felt that it was legally sound. But it raises so many legal questions. And I think you can understand the worker anxiety of taking a buyout package that might be then taken away from you and then you're out the severance payments and you're out of a job.

[Andrea Hsu]

And why the unions are telling their members, like, actually, this isn't a buyout because this, nothing about this is guaranteed.

[Tamara Keith]

Yeah. And going through that Frequently Asked Questions document, there was a question, can you take another job while you're in this period? And you're like, yeah, sure.

[Andrea Hsu]

Yeah. The answer, I'll read it from the faq. Actually, the wording is absolutely. With an exclamation point. We encourage you to find a job in the private sector as soon as you would like to do so. The way to greater American prosperity is encouraging people to move from lower productivity jobs in the public sector to higher productivity jobs in the private sector.

[Susan Davis]

Although we should note that federal workers have been prosecuted in the past for doing that. For doing the exact thing that that FAQ for double dipping written by unknown legal advisors, saying, of course, you can do this thing that millions of federal workers have signed ethics pledges saying they would not double dip as a federal worker. So that is just, I think, highlights a very good example of why you might be hesitant to take an offer that might seem legally dubious.

[Tamara Keith]

Yeah. And I think the other point to make here is that a lot of the conversation about this has been focused on federal workers in Washington, D.C. who don't want to go to the office. And the reality is, is very different.

[Andrea Hsu]

Oh, yeah, something like 80% of the federal workforce is outside the D.C. maryland, Virginia area. They're all over the country. They're keeping the water safe, processing Social Security checks. There are IRS employees who are in communities. You know, they go to the library, they go to community centers to help people with their taxes. These people work all over the country.

[Susan Davis]

I also think it was very interesting that this week, so far, this has been pitched to the public as a budget saving measure. Right. We're going to reduce the size of the workforce. We're going to streamline government. But then, Tam, this week, the White House, the spokeswoman for the White House, Caroline Levitt, introduced this idea that actually the Trump administration might then rehire for some of these roles, which I think also raises questions about whether this is actually a budget saving measure or really just want to purge people out of the government that don't support the Trump administration.

[Tamara Keith]

We know for a fact that this administration wants to purge the deep state and replace federal workers with people who will not resist Trump's plans and policies. But we don't actually know if this is part of that plan or not.

[Andrea Hsu]

And I, I will note in the original OPM Fork in the road email that went out to people, they laid out, you know, all the changes that were going to come to the federal government. And one of them is enhanced standards of conduct. And in this section, they have this language that says the federal workforce should be comprised of employees who are reliable, loyal, trustworthy. And the word loyal in particular there has some people really troubled because federal workers take an oath to be loyal to the U.S. constitution, not to any president or administration.

[Susan Davis]

I also think we should note that, yes, this buyout severance offers happening, but the White House has also made clear that firings are on the horizon. And there's a lot of classes of federal workers that you can fire without recourse, thinking specifically of people who are hired and are on one or two year probationary periods, which is pretty typical across the federal government. And those folks can be fired and they don't have union protections or recourse. So I also think that's one thing that we're all watching.

[Tamara Keith]

And Andrea, we are going to let you go. Thank you so much for bringing your reporting to the pod.

[Andrea Hsu]

Oh, thanks for having me.

[Tamara Keith]

And we're going to take a quick break. When we get back, what's going on over at the FBI and Justice Department.

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[Tamara Keith]

And we are joined now by justice correspondent Carrie Johnson. Hey, Kerry.

[Carrie Johnson]

Hey, Tam.

[Tamara Keith]

All right. You've been busy.

[Carrie Johnson]

It's been a crazy period. Yeah.

[Tamara Keith]

FBI agents have sued their bosses at the Department of Justice. That sounds surprising. But, Kerry, what's going on there?

[Carrie Johnson]

Yes. Certainly doesn't happen every day. What's been going on is the second in command at the Justice Department demanded from the FBI a list of employees who worked on all those January 6th cases. We think the list includes like 5,000 people. These are agents, investigators, intelligence analysts and other people. And the acting director of the FBI did not want to turn it over. You know, there's a lot of concern about safety to these agents and employees because the January six people have been pardoned. Many of them had been making threats on social media and elsewhere against the people who investigated them. And it got so rough that two sets of FBI agents filed lawsuits to try to prevent this list from becoming public. Those lawsuits are getting hearing in court almost as we speak. Nothing's been resolved yet. But the fear is that somehow those names could become public and it could result in really bad consequences for the employees.

[Susan Davis]

I also think it's a point worth making, especially for our listeners to understand that FBI agents don't get to decide the cases they work on. This is like so many professions. Your boss tells you to do something and you do it. And then suggesting that you could be fired or punished for that seems kind of crazy.

[Carrie Johnson]

Absolutely. And in fact, things got so hot that the number two at the Justice Department actually sent out a memo saying no FBI employees would be fired or punished for following orders. But hasn't given many of those agents much comfort, in part because They've seen so many people get fired at the Justice Department already. The remaining lawyers who work with Special Counsel Jack Smith, many of them were fired. Other lawyers who worked at the U.S. attorney's office on January 6th cases and had still been on probationary status, they've been fired. And then senior employees who worked on things like the environment and national security and extraditions at the Justice Department, they've been reassigned to a sanctuary city office, and some of them have quit. So it's been just two and a half weeks of real turmoil and upheaval at the doj.

[Tamara Keith]

I mean, is some of this just like, you know, new priorities?

[Carrie Johnson]

Some of it is new priorities, but we've had an example, and this is according to the FBI Agents association, where one FBI employee actually left the recovery operation on the Potomac river for the people who died in the collision between the airplane and the helicopter. This employee had been working all day on recovery efforts, and he had to go back to the office to fill out this survey. The Justice Department demanded the FBI agents complete about what their role was on January 6th. And, you know, was that a good use of people's time? I'm not sure. The FBI didn't think so.

[Tamara Keith]

Well, and the fact of this list, the fact of this survey, certainly it would seem like this could lead to consequences for them.

[Carrie Johnson]

This is all in the context of President Trump's executive order about weaponization of the government. And we know that the new Attorney General, Pam Bondi, who's just been on the job for a couple of days, she signed a weaponization memo, too. And she has pledged to basically investigate the people who investigated Trump. People in New York City, people in Georgia, and people in Washington, D.C. and so there's really a climate of fear. It's gotten so rough that I talked this week with a lawyer named Stacey young. She spent 18 years at the Justice Department. She just left last month to create a group called Justice Connection to try to help people who are in bad situations in the DOJ and the FBI.

[Susan Davis]

Now, I think that what's happening at FBI unto itself is pretty spectacular, but it's not happening in a vacuum. Like, if you step back and look at collectively, the actions that the Trump administration is taking, offering buyouts to everybody that works at the CIA, the nsa, and the dni, the director of National Intelligence Office, there's been hiring freezes on people that do cybersecurity efforts. There is this sense of that the national security apparatus writ large is rotten to the core. Right. That there's something in this that needs to be rooted out and dramatically changed. But politically speaking, it is just fascinating to me that the modern infrastructure was born out of the 911 attack. Right. And legislation was passed and government was reorganized. And that was an organization led by the Republican Party. And the same party 20 years later is essentially trying to dismantle it. And I will say, like, it's. Some of it is with cause. There has been a lot of criticism of the national security apparatus, from conservative to liberal thinkers. There's been reforms. There's not that there's nothing there there. But it is pretty profound what is happening now, especially when you think of counterterrorism and how dangerous the world still is.

[Tamara Keith]

I mean, literally, there was just a terror inspired incident in New Orleans on, on January 1st. Like, these are real threats that exist. But I do think, sue, that what you're talking about is rooted in how President Trump feels about the intelligence apparatus, how he feels about the FBI. And all of that is based on how he feels. He was treated very early in the. In his first administration. He was saying that he was being spied on by Obama. He believes that all of this has been weaponized against him going back years. His supporters believe this. And all of this is, as you say, rooted in, like, getting rid of all of this that they believe is corrupt.

[Carrie Johnson]

Two points. One, he was not, in fact, spied on by Obama. And two, okay, you want to repopulate these agencies, that's fine. But to hire and train a new FBI agent and a new intelligence officer will take a really long time. And in the meantime, in this high threat environment from overseas and even domestically, who's gonna be doing that job protecting the American people? That's the question on a lot of people's minds these days.

[Tamara Keith]

Well, let's turn to the FBI director. While all of this was going on, Democrats on Capitol Hill have been raising alarms about President Trump's pick to be FBI Director Kash Patel. He already had a Senate hearing. They wanted another one after new information came to light. The chairman of that committee, Chuck Grassley, said, not gonna do that. And we're expecting Kash Patel to get a vote soon, right?

[Susan Davis]

Yeah.

[Carrie Johnson]

Kash Patel's scheduled for a vote in the Senate Judiciary Committee next week, Thursday. The issue here is that at his hearing, he pledged to look forward and not backward. He talked about not wanting to engage in vengeance or being vindictive. And in his answers, his written answers to senators after his hearing, he basically said, listen, I'm gonna take steps to follow up Trump's executive order to root out corrupt elements of the government. And I'm full bore in on this weaponization effort that is a kind of a conflict. And so many Democrats and even some Republicans outside the Congress want to know more. In fact, this week, William Webster, who's the only person to have run both the FBI and the CIA, sent Chuck Grassley a letter saying if Kash Patel gets to run the FBI, the FBI as we know it is over. And we're going to find, find out next week where the Senate stands on this.

[Susan Davis]

The thing I think is interesting about Patel, and I think this goes across Donald Trump's nominees, is he's clearly made loyalty a number one litmus test for all these appointees. But also I'd say this, it does kind of tell you that they are in somewhat figureheads because all of this upheaval at the CIA and at the FBI, a lot of this is happening before Cash Patel's even in place. Like if they're not even allowing their people to get in place to make it look like they're in charge. And I think that's important for people to remember that this is all being driven by Donald Trump and the Cash Patel, Patel's and everybody else are there to execute the whims of the White House. And so the idea that, yes, Patel has been a provocateur, many of his opponents raised legitimate questions. But I still, it's hard for me to see him as an independent operator versus someone who is going to do exactly what Donald Trump tells him to do.

[Tamara Keith]

Yeah. All right. Well, we are going to take one more break and then it's time for Can't Let It Go. And we're back. And it's time for Can't Let It Go. That's the part of the show where we talk about the things from the week that we just cannot stop thinking about politics or other otherwise. Sue, let's start with you.

[Susan Davis]

The thing I can't let go is I think that the universe has been speaking to me in the past week about the Eagles winning the Super Bowl. Oh, hear me, hear me. I have three completely unrelated points to prove it, to prove my thesis. The first being that Beyonce won album of the year for Cowboy Carter. What does that have to do with anything you might ask? Reasonable question.

[Tamara Keith]

I do ask.

[Susan Davis]

Yes, I think consider in that category, she was up against Taylor Swift, who lost for Tortured Poets Department, which arguably was a better album. And I'm a Beyonce, Stan. But Calboe Carter was not her best work. But she had never won that before. We'll set that aside. That's a different. Can't let it go. I think that tells me that the universe is shifting away from Taylor Swift and everything going her way. Eras tour's over, her boyfriend's in for the Super Bowl. The universe is saying, look, you've had your share.

[Tamara Keith]

And she is from Pennsylvania.

[Susan Davis]

And she's also from Pennsylvania and was originally an Eagles fan. Second point, I took an Uber this week.

[Tamara Keith]

Okay.

[Susan Davis]

When I got out of the Uber and they send you the notification, it was for $33.33. Do you know what that is? The street address of my grandmother's house in the city of Philadelphia.

[Tamara Keith]

Okay.

[Susan Davis]

The third thing, and we all know the universe speaks to you in threes, the third thing I would point to is there was a tragic plane crash in the city of Philadelphia this past week. And as part of that, there was a 10 year old boy who was in the car with his family. And when the plane crashed, shrapnel, you know, flew into the air and came into the car and he dove and covered his little sister up and saved her life. And metal went into his head and he had to go to children's hospital and they had to have a surgery and they thought he might not make it. And he woke up and he was like, dad, did I miss the Super Bowl?

[Tamara Keith]

Oh, my God.

[Susan Davis]

And he's a huge Eagles fan. How does the universe not want that kid to have a Super bowl win? So look, it's not me. I just report the facts, you decide. But I think that the universe is making a very good case that the universe wants the Eagles to win the Super Bowl.

[Tamara Keith]

I'm not gonna argue with a Philly fan because I know that's dangerous. Well, the great part is next week we can come back on the pod and find out, did I put it.

[Susan Davis]

All on the line? Look, there's also a lot of Philly fans out there who probably wanna throw their phones listening to me because Philly fans are notorious about Jinx. Like, you never get too confident about a win. But look, I need a little optimism in this world and every team needs people who believe. So I'm just going in. I'm Tam.

[Carrie Johnson]

What's your clique?

[Tamara Keith]

Well, my can't let it go is there is a man who was a judge and he was called for jury duty to be on a grand jury and he did not want to do jury duty.

[Susan Davis]

Understood.

[Tamara Keith]

And so he said he could not be impartial. He said, I know they are guilty. They would not be in front of me if they weren't guilty.

[Carrie Johnson]

Not good. Not good. My heart's racing.

[Tamara Keith]

But what I've learned through this. Oh, he was dismissed from jury duty. He got out of that, and then a disciplinary panel was notified, and then he basically resigned. He was taken off the bench forever. Yes.

[Susan Davis]

Like, cost his entire career over there.

[Tamara Keith]

Yeah. In his efforts to get out of jury duty, he got himself out of a job as a judge. To be clear, he is a town justice in the tiny town of Petersburg, New York. It turns out. I had no idea about this, but in New York, for sort of lower level town justices, you are elected to this post. You need not be a lawyer.

[Susan Davis]

I was gonna say. Did he actually go to law school?

[Tamara Keith]

No, no. This man said when he was put on the bench, he was looking forward to learning about the law.

[Susan Davis]

So good.

[Tamara Keith]

So good. And it turns out, according to the New York Times, in 2019, only about 700 of New York's roughly 1830 town and village judges had attended law school.

[Susan Davis]

That's amazing. That's actually the better part of that story, that there's all these judges who never have no legal experience. He can just tell if they're guilty by looking at them. What do you need a law degree for?

[Tamara Keith]

Yeah, I mean, if they were brought to him, they must be guilty.

[Carrie Johnson]

That's some rough justice. Let's not. Let's not do that. Yeah.

[Susan Davis]

Rough justice is a good name for a podcast.

[Tamara Keith]

Carrie. What can't you let go?

[Carrie Johnson]

Okay, so we're all working long hours, right?

[Tamara Keith]

We are.

[Carrie Johnson]

One of the things I like to do when I'm not working is look at people who are attending award ceremonies. I'm like, thinking about pictures of people who went to the Grammys.

[Tamara Keith]

Oh, yeah.

[Carrie Johnson]

Or the Golden Globes. And this week, in fact, just yesterday, was the NFL Honors Awards. So I spent part of this morning before coming to work looking at pictures of the Buffalo Bills quarterback Josh Allen and his fiance, the actress Hailee Steinfeld. I spent part of this morning looking at pictures of Joe Burrow, the Cincinnati Bengals quarterback. I spend a lot of time looking at pictures of Joe Burrow. I'm just gonna do a full disclosure, but the most time I spent this morning was looking at pictures of the former New England coach Bill Belichick.

[Susan Davis]

Oh, I know where you're going.

[Carrie Johnson]

And his very young girlfriend, Jordan Hudson. And Jordan Hudson is wearing a very fashion forward outfit. And Bill Belichick is wearing a jacket that doesn't fit so well. And everyone should go when they're done listening to the pod look at this photo because you, too, may be diverted from whatever is on your mind into that new universe.

[Tamara Keith]

Also, Total Flex. He just, like, has a fistful of.

[Carrie Johnson]

Super bowl rings, as one does.

[Susan Davis]

Yeah, I would, too, if I was him.

[Tamara Keith]

All right. Well, that is it for today's episode. Our executive producer is Mathani Muturi. Casey Morell edits the podcast. Our producers are Bria Suggs and Kelly Wessinger. Special thanks to Krishnadev Kalamer. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.

[Susan Davis]

I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.

[Carrie Johnson]

And I'm Carrie Johnson. I cover the Justice Department.

[Tamara Keith]

And thank you for listening to the NPR politics podcast, Go Birds.

[Ron Rutson]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Sadva Founder and CEO Ron Rutson shares the story of how he got started Creating.

[Andre]

Saatva in 2007, 2008, I went out and I bought the most popular luxury mattresses. I tore them apart and I realized based on the raw materials, cost and the analysis that I had done, that I was able to sell that level mattress, but with a very affordable price.

[Ron Rutson]

To learn more, go to saatva.com NPR.

[Susan Davis]

Are evergreen trees are Pacific Northwest icons in journalism. An evergreen story isn't tied to one news cycle. It goes deep and helps you understand the world. The Evergreen is also a podcast from OPB about the Northwest.

[Tamara Keith]

I'm Jen Chavez. Listen to the Evergreen podcast from OPB.

[Susan Davis]

Every Monday, part of the NPR Network.