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- [00:01]
NPR Narrator
Sources and Methods, the crown jewels of the intelligence community. Shorthand for how do we know what's real? Who told us? If you have those answers, you're on the inside and NPR wants to bring you there. From the Pentagon to the State Department to spy agencies, listen to understand what's really happening and what it means for you. Sources and Methods, the new National Security Podcast from npr.
- [00:24]
Andrew (Audiobook Narrator)
Hi there. This is Andrew, an audiobook narrator in Los Angeles, California. Yes, this podcast was recorded at 109.
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Ashley Lopez
Eastern Time on Thursday, September 11, 2025.
- [00:36]
Andrew (Audiobook Narrator)
Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but I'll still be sweating inside my closet that I converted into a sound booth, looking forward to the cooler months to come. Here's the show.
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Elena Moore
Oh, my God, what an amazing voice.
- [00:52]
Ashley Lopez
Yeah. I would say if you weren't an audiobook narrator, you should be.
- [00:56]
Elena Moore
Oh, my God.
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Domenico Montanaro
It's an amazing job.
- [00:58]
Ashley Lopez
Yeah.
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Domenico Montanaro
Seems like people from radio would be interested in that position.
- [01:02]
Ashley Lopez
A second act, right? Hey there. It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover politics.
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Elena Moore
I'm Elena Moore. I also cover politics.
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Domenico Montanaro
And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.
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Ashley Lopez
And today on the show, we're talking about conservative activist Charlie Kirk, who was fatally shot yesterday during an event at Utah Valley University. His death has become a political flashpoint in the last 24 hours, and we want to talk about what that means. Elena, let's start with you. I want you to talk a little bit about who Charlie Kirk was.
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Elena Moore
We should say he was only 31 when he was assassinated. This guy has been in the public eye in the national political scene for more than a dozen years. He started Turning Point USA when he was just 18. That was 2012. In the midst of former President Obama's second campaign. He decided to start a group that was kind of meant to counter some of those progressive, college focused liberal groups and provide a space, almost a counterculture type space for someone who wasn't a progressive young person. And that exploded, I mean, in the more than a decade since it's turned into multiple nonprofits connected to Turning Point usa. He had an advocacy wing that worked on campaigns. And we saw him morph into a really close ally of President Trump and the Trump family.
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Domenico Montanaro
Yeah. I mean, this is somebody who would go around campuses. This was a big piece of what he did, trying to argue with people literally to say, prove me wrong.
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Arnold (Bodybuilder turned actor turned governor turned actor)
Right.
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Domenico Montanaro
He would have people step up to microphones. He would answer whatever they would throw back at him. But he was very combative. You know And a lot of the things that he said were controversial and became really a lightning rod for a lot of liberals. He was ubiquitous on TikTok and Instagram, more than 8 million followers on each of those platforms. For him and his podcast, he was really effective at what he did with young men in particular and getting a lot of young men to become Trump voters. But a lot of his thoughts, again, on women, Dee, transgender people, there were things that made a lot of liberals upset with what he was doing on these college campuses.
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Elena Moore
I think his entire MO Was free speech should mean free speech. And so that's what this Prove Me Wrong campaign was, and that's what he was doing when he was fatally shot. Free speech was center. And obviously, we can talk more about what that meant for him and what that looked like in his views. But that was kind of key here of fostering a space where, for lack of a better phrase, like, you wouldn't get canceled for sharing your more far right, conservative, firebrand opinions.
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Domenico Montanaro
He felt like, say the outrageous thing and be allowed to do that and challenge the politically correct environment on campuses. And a lot of times, the things that he said were absolutely politically incorrect.
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Ashley Lopez
Yeah. From my understanding, this was, like, the beginning of what was gonna be a college tour, and he was sort of in the middle of a conversation about gun policy. Can you fill in more about, like, how this happened?
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Elena Moore
Yeah. So, obviously, there are a lot of really disturbing videos that capture this moment online. It appears that the question that Kir was being asked and debating was about gun violence and shooters. There's obviously been a lot of rhetoric on the right. They argue that there's a large number of school shooters that are transgender. That's something that's disputed, and it's a very small number of people. But that's the conversation they were having. They were talking about numbers of how many people who identify as trans participate in gun violence and how common that is. And he was in the middle of talking about this horrible thing, being shot at school, and then he was shot. And like Domenico said, he's never shied away from topics. And so the conversation itself isn't surprising, but the timing is certainly horrible.
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Domenico Montanaro
There's a difference, though, obviously, between having disagreements, being able to have those, you know, verbal sparring matches and not have that turn into something violent. And I think that's where a lot of people in this country are very concerned about the political moment that we're in, because this violence is not relegated to one party or the other. There have been targets from people who are in both parties, just over the last year, year and a half, that you can add up, you know, more than half a dozen of those. From firebombings of a governor's mansion in Pennsylvania to Tesla EV stations, electric charging stations being set on fire, to the state senator in Minnesota. There's a lot of this that goes around. The problem is how do people respond to it? And, you know, I think social media is one of those things that has made things worse in many ways because it has really moved people to their corners and there isn't a lot of coming together.
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Ashley Lopez
You know, I think conservatives for a long time had been trying to figure out a way to effectively communicate with young people on conservative issues. Why was Kirk so effective at it.
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Elena Moore
On top of just having a big social media platform? I think his central message was a fairly simple one and one that aligned with what Trump was pitching to young people, which is, you know, we see you. We see the struggles that you feel financially, we see the othering that some have argued they've felt in social settings for feeling more conservative. And more than anything, I heard him say, you know, both when I've interviewed him and publicly, you know, speaking at the Republican National Convention. The Republican Party, he would argue, wants you to have a better life than your parents. And that is a simple message that I think we're hearing from politicians on both sides of the aisle. But I actually talked to Charlie Kirk on the phone the morning after President Trump won reelection in November, and I asked him, like, what is Trump's draw with young people?
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Unidentified Guest
They don't look at it as economic or social. There's one above. They just want to live in the same country as their parents. I don't know that's a social issue or an economic issue. That's just they want a nice life and they feel it slipping away. They feel as if insanity is creeping into their institutions.
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Elena Moore
I think that that's a message that people are gonna keep emulating.
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Domenico Montanaro
Yeah. I mean, it really speaks to the populism that's been so popular, frankly, in the age of Trump, on both the left and right.
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Ashley Lopez
Yeah. All right, we're going to take a quick break.
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Throughline Podcast Host
More in a moment on the Throughline podcast from npr. Immigration enforcement might be more visible now, but this moment didn't begin with President Trump's second inauguration or even his first, a series from Throughline about how immigration became political and a cash cow. Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Ian (How to Do Everything Podcast Host)
Hey, everybody, it's Ian and Mike, the hosts of how to Do Everything.
- [07:36]
Mike (How to Do Everything Podcast Host)
That's the show where we take your questions and find overqualified experts to answer them.
- [07:41]
Ian (How to Do Everything Podcast Host)
Alex asked us to write his out of office email message, but we don't.
- [07:45]
Mike (How to Do Everything Podcast Host)
Know how to write, so we called up US Poet Laureate Ada Limon.
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Elena Moore
Is this National Public Radio?
- [07:51]
Andrew (Audiobook Narrator)
Sort of.
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Mike (How to Do Everything Podcast Host)
Technically, yes.
- [07:53]
Ian (How to Do Everything Podcast Host)
Season two just dropped. Listen to the how to Do Everything podcast from NPR on How to do Everything. We take your questions and find phenomenal experts to answer them.
- [08:03]
Mike (How to Do Everything Podcast Host)
Because we love you.
- [08:04]
Ian (How to Do Everything Podcast Host)
Elizabeth asked us, how do I exercise while I'm in my car?
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Mike (How to Do Everything Podcast Host)
And because we love Elizabeth, we rang up our favorite bodybuilder turned actor turned governor turned actor. Hello, Arnold.
- [08:14]
Arnold (Bodybuilder turned actor turned governor turned actor)
Hello.
- [08:15]
Mike (How to Do Everything Podcast Host)
We're here to talk to you today from npr.
- [08:17]
Arnold (Bodybuilder turned actor turned governor turned actor)
Very nice.
- [08:18]
Mike (How to Do Everything Podcast Host)
Season two just dropped. Listen to how to Do Everything from npr.
- [08:23]
Ashley Lopez
And we're back. And we've been talking about conservative activist Charlie Kirk, who was killed yesterday. The response to Kirk's death has been markedly partisan, even though, as of taping this, we don't know the motive for the shooting. Domenico, I do want you to talk about some of the responses and reactions. We've been getting to this from the media and social media. What have you seen so far?
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Domenico Montanaro
Yeah, it's been interesting because, you know, some Democratic leaders, former Presidents Obama and Biden, you know, said that they were really calling for calm, saying that this was, you know, a moment when people have to come together and, you know, think about the family that Charlie Kirk has left behind here and that violence is never acceptable. I thought it was a very powerful statement from Spencer Cox, the governor of Utah, where this happened, by the way. And, you know, Cox really also called for people to come together. And he also mentioned some of the violence against, against Democrats in the country, whether it was Minnesota or elsewhere. And he was really trying to push back against those who might feel good that Charlie Kirk is no longer here and saying kind of try to be more human than that. Put your pens down, step away from the computer. And I thought it was a really powerful statement.
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Ashley Lopez
Yeah. President Trump made comments on a video last night in response to Kirk's death. Actually, here is some of what he said.
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Arnold (Bodybuilder turned actor turned governor turned actor)
It's a long past time for all Americans and the media to confront the fact that violence and murder are the tragic consequence of demonizing those with whom you disagree day after day, year after year, in the most hateful and despicable way possible. For years, those on the radical left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis and the world's worst mass murderers and criminals. This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we're seeing in our country today, and it must stop right now.
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Ashley Lopez
Domenico, what do you make of this response?
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Domenico Montanaro
Well, you know, experts will say that it's not helpful when it comes to trying to tamp down political violence. Now, I do understand that this is personal for President Trump. You know, he's someone who considered Charlie Kirk to be like a son. He was very close to his son, don Donald Trump Jr. Who said he considered him to be like a little brother. And of course, Trump was targeted himself in a political assassination attempt. And I do think, though, we have to put in context the fact that we don't know the motivations of this shooter at this point. And the person who attacked President Trump in Butler, Pennsylvania, was someone who was not necessarily politically motivated, but wanted to have a large scale event, was also scouting out where President Biden was gonna be. But, you know, sometimes the conclusions get far out beyond the facts, because it fits people's narratives very conveniently. But what Trump was saying there, just talking about radical left wing rhetoric, is obviously very different than what we heard from Spencer Cox. And I think that's more what people would say would help tamp down this kind of political violence and take the temperature down.
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Elena Moore
Yeah. And I mean, we should emphasize here, like, Kirk was a controversial figure. He definitely had a lot of people who disagreed with him. But I think that what's really kind of shaken a lot of young conservatives is like, this was a man who, his entire message was free speech, free speech. You should be able to say what you want. And he was killed. And we don't know why he was killed. But I cannot imagine how that sits with a lot of students who were kind of feeling empowered by him being so kind of open about his views like that.
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Domenico Montanaro
Yeah. And, you know, when you watch or listen to a lot of conservative media, which I did yesterday, you had some people like Jesse Watters on Fox saying that this is war, that they're waged war, and how are we going to respond? You know, it's the kind of thing that is. It kind of makes for good tv. Right. Because outrage makes for good tv, but it's not necessarily something that helps in these situations.
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Ashley Lopez
Yeah. I do wonder, though, where the movement that Charlie Kirk sort of shepherded into a big win for Trump last year, where it goes from here. First of all, can we get a sense of the scale of how effective that operation was?
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Elena Moore
Yeah, well, like, you know, like we've said, this man was a huge, like, media personality, but he was an Organizer and in many ways, a recruiter. I mean, Turning Point USA, like we said, started in 2012. Its website now says it has over 800 college chapters. Last year, the group and its, you know, nonprofits linked to the organization reported roughly an annual revenue of $100 million. This is a massive organization that he started. It's also brought in a lot of conservative fire brands to the mainstream. I mean, I think about, you know, Florida Congresswoman Anna Polina Luna, who's one of the youngest members of Congress. She worked for Turning Point. She was supported by Kirk, and I actually spoke with her this morning, and she's obviously devastated. She credits a lot of her career to him. I think there are a lot of people like that who. Who felt awakened and inspired because there was this big organization they could kind of be a part of and rise up in. And not to mention, you know, Turning Point Action, the advocacy wing of Turning Point USA, played a role alongside the Trump campaign in the 2024 election. They were tasked with helping mobilize voters in key sw like Arizona and Michigan and Wisconsin, all states Trump won. We don't know the extent that Turning Point directly contributed, but we do know that young voters, especially, you know, shifted. Right. And I think in some way, shape or form, part of that conversation includes Charlie Kirk.
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Domenico Montanaro
You know, Kirk was quite effective. I mean, there aren't a lot of people who are willing to do what he did in saying, hey, ask me anything, and then argue his point. He had an agenda, clearly, and he was willing to do it in a way that was, you know, provocative. But he didn't mind that. Right. And he was willing to have that debate, have that argument, try to convince people of his views. There's a real question on who can really step in to do that, because not a lot of people really want to be able to or are able, frankly, to do that at all.
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Elena Moore
Yeah. And, you know, I will say I don't think it's gonna be one person. And like we've said, this man was a controversial figure. He said a lot of things a lot of people didn't like. But for the folks who did agree with him, I think there will be a mobilization because of it. Even in the last, you know, less than 24 hours while we're taping this pod, there have been, you know, conservative influencers, content creators, organizers who have developed followings over the last few years who have come out and reflected on how Kirk influenced them. And so, you know, there's a lot of questions about how the Republican Party can sustain and potentially even build on their youth coalition after the 2024 election. It remains to be seen how this affects that. Does it rally people? Does it, you know, bring people together? We'll have to see, but I'll definitely be watching it. All right.
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Ashley Lopez
Well, let's leave it there for today. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover politics.
- [15:43]
Elena Moore
I'm Elena Moore. I also cover politics.
- [15:45]
Domenico Montanaro
And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.
- [15:47]
Ashley Lopez
And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.
- [16:00]
NPR Narrator
Military commanders, intelligence officials, diplomatic power players, they know things you may not about where the world is headed. And we will pull back the curtain on what they're thinking on sources and methods. NPR's new National Security podcast, Our team will help you understand America's shifting role in the world. Listen to sources and methods from npr.
- [16:23]
Domenico Montanaro
Immigration raids, masked ICE agents, Operation Patriot. Our podcast Here and Now Anytime is looking at Trump's agenda of mass deportation through the eyes of one state.
- [16:35]
Mike (How to Do Everything Podcast Host)
I'm coming to Boston. I'm bringing hell with me.
- [16:38]
Domenico Montanaro
Listen to the podcast here and now Anytime from NPR and wbur.
- [16:49]
Elena Moore
Shortwave thinks of science as an invisible force showing up in your everyday life, powering the food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. It Science is approachable because it's already part of your life. Come explore these connections on the Shortwave podcast from NPR.