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NPR Host
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Sarah McCammon
Learn more at plus.npr.org hey, it's Sarah McCammon. It's almost the end of the year, and it's that time when npr, which is a nonprofit news organization, asks for support. Maybe you're already an NPR supporter, and if so, thank you so much. But if you've never given to public media before, or maybe you haven't in a while, please consider doing so now. NPR's mission is to create a more informed public for the Politics Podcast. That means sorting through all the noise coming out of Washington to focus on the news that matters. It means breaking down proposals and policies so you understand what they do and who's affected. It also means holding institutions and people in power accountable. In 2025, as a new administration takes over, we can keep doing this work with your help. The easiest way to support the Politics Podcast and NPR is to sign up for npr. A small recurring donation gets you special perks for more than 25 NPR podcasts, like sponsor free listening, bonus episodes, and even discounted items from the NPR shop. It only takes a few minutes to sign up, and you can do right now@plus.NPR.org and thank you.
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Susan Davis
Hey, there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.
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Don Gonyea
I'm Don Gonyea, national Political Correspondent.
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Mara Liasson
And I'm Mara Liasson, senior National Political Correspondent.
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Susan Davis
I see you and I raise you there. Today on the show, we're gonna talk about how Donald Trump reshaped the Republican Party and where the party might go in his second. Don I always think that every time we start to engage in this conversation, we need to begin it with a little bit of humility because the rise of Donald Trump was really something that I think it's fair to say the press didn't see coming. But most importantly, the Republican Party didn't see coming.
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Don Gonyea
That's absolutely true. Let's flashback for a moment to Mitt Romney's loss to Barack Obama in that election. Right. The sense of the Republican Party was that they, they needed to rethink everything about what they were. I mean, the core principles were still good strong on foreign policy, low taxes, all of that, but they were losing the votes of women, they were losing the votes of minorities, and they were generally seen as A party that was out of step. So what the Republican Party did after that election was convene with a bunch of leaders and a bunch of their kind of wisest heads, and they kind of sequestered themselves away. And then they released something called the Republican Party autopsy. And the sense was we need to diagnose the problem. Autopsy, a very strong word. Right. But they needed to diagnose the problem before they could go forward. And the point was that they needed to take a softer tone to women, minorities, the LGBTQ community community. They needed to back comprehensive immigration reform and generally to be more inclusive. So that was. That was right after the 2012 election. And in 2016, along comes Donald Trump.
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Susan Davis
Mara, it's such a good reminder that in our field of politics, there really is no such thing as experts, because the smartest people in the room in the party can still be completely wrong about the moment.
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Mara Liasson
Well, you know, you've heard me say this a hundred times. Covering politics is an exercise in humility, because every day we get to wake up and find out all the ways we were wrong. And one thing that happened back in 2016 is the Republican establishment thought that if they just took two aspirin and lay down when they got up, Donald Trump would be gone. And it just didn't happen. You know, the question now is, are we in the midst of a realignment? Well, guess what? You can't. You don't know that till the realignment has happened. You can't tell while you're in the middle of it. And we don't know. Donald Trump ran as a populist. He beat two women and he lost to one man. Now, how much of that is the reason he won? How much of it was worldwide inflation? How much of it was his unique, kind of shameless celebrity, strongman brand? We don't know how much of it is unique to him and how much of it is unique to the party, but we're just going to have to wait and find out.
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Susan Davis
I do think, though, Don, that Donald Trump, and this is one of the many ironies of him, this wealthy New York Wall street candidate, really captured the hearts and minds of a lot of working class people in this country. And while he expanded the tent in the 2024 election, back in 2016, like, he really tapped into white working class anger in this country. And I think that that's where a lot of the realignment started to come from. A group of people that, frankly, the elite of the Republican Party didn't think that much about.
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Don Gonyea
It is fascinating to Kind of look back at that now. He kind of did what they said they were trying to do with the autopsy, but he just did it in a way that they couldn't even begin to imagine. The Republican Party, when they did that autopsy, didn't think, we're going to become the party of working class people in America. Reagan had made some inroads with autoworkers and the Reagan Democrats in Macomb county. But that was always kind of seen as a measure of race, Reagan's special appeal, and those workers do want lower taxes and all of that. So there were issues that were appealing to them, but Trump did all of that. But he also, despite being, you know, the billionaire, found a way to speak their language. And I was talking to a lot of auto workers during the 2016 campaign. And I will not sit here today, you know, eight years later and say, oh, I predicted the result of 2016 based on my conversations with, with Michigan autoworkers. But I did have conversations with editors saying, I'm hearing things I haven't heard before. I'm hearing these workers talk about Republicans and talk about a Republican candidate as though not the way they talked about Mitt Romney or whatever. They talked about Donald Trump as though he was one of them, that he understood them, that he was on their side. And that has proven to be a very enduring thing.
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Susan Davis
The difference to me, to Mara, of how much the party itself has changed in such a relative short period of time, because if you think back to Trump when he won the first time, which was a surprise, like Donald Trump himself wasn't confident he was going to win that election. So much of the party was still defined by sort of Reagan, Bush era Republicans on Capitol Hill. Paul Ryan was the speaker of the House, Mitch McConnell was the Senate Majority Leader. There was this sense that there would still be this like establishment check on Trump. And I think it's fair to say that, that that opposition has completely folded. It's almost non existent at this point.
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Mara Liasson
I agree with that. But not because the party has gone through some ideological shift. It's because it's become the party that stands for whatever Trump wants on a given moment. And what to me is so interesting, if we're going to talk about has the Republican Party changed permanently into a kind of isolationist, multi ethnic working class party that gives billionaires tax cuts? You know, this is what we're waiting to see. If he's, if they're going to really be a multiethnic working class party, are they going to raise the minimum wage? Are they going to pass bills that favor workers over corporate power. We don't know, we don't even know if Trump is going to follow through on a lot of his threats this time. We certainly think this time he has the ability and the, and the experience to do what he wants more, more than he did in the first term.
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Susan Davis
Don. It's also kind of amazing because it wasn't that the Republican Party had a lack of talent or a lack of ambition. And there was, I mean, remember how crowded the stage was back in 2016.
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Don Gonyea
Yeah.
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Susan Davis
But Trump, in a way, is sort of single handedly ended the political careers of so many other Republicans who wanted to be president. And it's hard to see a path in 2020 for America, for Chris Christie or Jeb Bush. Right.
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Don Gonyea
Like the, remember, remember Scott Walker? Remember Governor Walker of Wisconsin? Yeah. He was the next big thing. He was from Wisconsin, a neighboring state to Iowa. He wowed people in his first very early campaign appearances in 2015. It was when he was running for president and he didn't even make it to caucus day because he had been so swamped. And yeah, you mentioned Chris Christie, Jeb Bush, Christie. Todd Whitman was seen as a future of the Republican Party at one point. And now I think we can add Nikki Haley. Maybe it's a little premature. She's still young, she's still in the game, but it feels like she's also kind of part of that list. And even Governor DeSantis in Florida. And Marco Rubio has found a way because he's still in the Senate and is secretary of state nominee. But this whole kind of core group of GOP talent that was kind of collectively seen as the future of the party. They're, they're, they're not even in the discussion anymore. And that is because Donald Trump tipped the cart over.
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Susan Davis
All right, let's take a quick break and we'll talk more about this when we get back. And we're back. And Mara, I do think there's a point worth making now as we shift to the next Trump term, that if Trump was not ready on day one when he first entered office in 2017, but everything about the way that this transition is operating seems that they have a very clear idea of what they want to do in Trump 2.0.
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Mara Liasson
Yeah, absolutely. He certainly had his list of people he knew what jobs he wanted to give them. The big question is he's more ready to do what he wants.
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Susan Davis
Yeah.
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Mara Liasson
Are the voters ready to support him in all those things? We know that they voted for lower prices and a secure border. We don't know if they voted for him, hoping that he would pardon the January 6th prisoners convicted felons, that he would start a trade war, that he would fire tens of thousands of federal workers. We don't know if that's what they voted for. And we're going to find out because he says he's ready to do all of those things on day one.
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Susan Davis
I also think when I'm thinking about the next Trump administration, I think one of the things we have to acknowledge is sort of the norms, the way that we've expected presidents to conduct themselves historically. And I think that Trump has sort of blown that all up. And in some ways, I think the lesson to me of the 2024 election is that America's okay with that. I mean, Trump had so much baggage in the reelection campaign. He was a convicted felon. All of the events around January 6th in which he attempted to overturn the 2020 election, the fact that he never fully IGN acknowledge that he lost that election, this was not unknown to the country, and they reelected him. And I think that there's a lesson for a lot of people, including us, that maybe obsessing about the norms of what we should expect of politicians, the country might not care as much as we think that they do.
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Mara Liasson
The other thing that I think is important about norms is the difference between norms about personal behavior and then the norms about accepting democratic institutions and checks and balances. And I don't think that voters have really thought that one through.
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Susan Davis
Really?
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Mara Liasson
Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't think they said, oh, we want a president who's an authoritarian, and we, we hope that he governs, you know, like, like a dictator. I don't think they thought that. I think they said, he seems strong. We want lower prices and a secure border.
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Susan Davis
You know, I, I think I would disagree with you a little bit there, Mara, because I think that Trump campaigned on this stuff so out loud and so articulately about how much how he wanted to govern, and that I think that a lot of vot see that Washington is. They think it's too big, it's too corrupt, and you just need a disruptor. You need someone to smash the system.
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Mara Liasson
I agree with the change candidate part of that, but I don't think that they specifically thought it would be a good idea if there were no more checks and balances. It would be good idea if he weaponizes the Justice Department against his enemies, because as you and I know you were in the Philadelphia suburbs, voters kept on Saying Republicans, he's just kidding, he's being sarcastic. He won't really do this. And. And they discounted a lot of the extreme stuff.
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Susan Davis
Yeah. But also, Don, I mean, Donald Trump enters office the second time you could make the case, arguably the most powerful president in American history. When you consider the recent Supreme Court rulings that really expanded the notion that the president kind of is above the law.
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Don Gonyea
Oh, absolutely. And again, what we know about him is he will always push it. Right. He'll push it not just to the limits, but. But beyond the limits. And again, I do talk to a lot of voters, and it's not at all unusual for me to encounter a Trump voter who says, well, I didn't vote for that, but I still support the direction he's taking the country. Or, no, I don't necessarily approve of that, but let's not forget that. Blah, blah, blah, you know, and they ultimately stick with him. So there's this elasticity to his support and what he can get away with. But it is very important to note that because of that recent Supreme Court ruling that did expand protections from prosecution for, not just for Trump, for any president, he's the beneficiary right now, is that the president can do a lot more. And it brings to mind that old Richard Nixon line. If the president does it, it's not illegal. Well, now, we may be in a place where that is much closer to reality of this Supreme Court ruling.
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Susan Davis
And Mara Trump is very clear and the Trump administration staff around him is very clear that they want to push the power of executive authority. They want to see how far it can go. And there's a lot of ideology around that that says that, hey, maybe the president should be more powerful.
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Mara Liasson
Oh, well, that's been around for years and years. That predates Trump, the idea that we need a strong executive and that there shouldn't be, quote, independent executive branch agencies. But look, the founders created a system of checks and balances, broadly distributed power, because they knew that they couldn't stop someone with authoritarian, or they would have said monarchical tendencies from being elected, but they hoped that they could set up a system that would prevent that person from doing too much damage if he did get elected. So we're now going to find out, especially because the Supreme Court seems to be tinkering around the edges in our system to make the executive much more powerful with fewer checks and balances. We're going to see how that system that our founders created holds up against a president like Trump.
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Susan Davis
I also think we're going to find out pretty quickly because the sense I get talking to Republicans on Capitol Hill in their conversations with the administration is that they want to blow the walls out in the first year of the, of his second term. One we he's already a lame duck, so he's only has four more years in office. And I think they're acutely aware from Trump 1.0 that the midterms could have consequences. It's a razor thin House majority. He might only have full republic in control for the first two years in office. And they want to, they want to go big.
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Mara Liasson
Yeah, but you're talking about legislation. There's so many things Trump can do even if he did lose one house or both of Congress in a midterm. Sure. I think Trump is very focused on executive action.
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Susan Davis
Do you think, Mara? And you said, and you're right, like we just don't know because we're living this in real time. But how, how lasting do you think Donald Trump's effect on the Republican Party is in that? I think of my whole life, for most of my life, we always viewed the Republic Party in the shadow of Ronald Reagan.
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Mara Liasson
Yeah.
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Susan Davis
And I have to think that like my kids will grow up seeing a Republican Party that rises out of the shadow of Donald Trump.
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Mara Liasson
I think that the party is changing for sure and changing probably, probably permanently to a more isolationist, anti immigrant party and they're no longer the small government, strong defense, culturally conservative party that they were during Reagan. The question is, can another Trump like candidate win? We've seen a lot of Republicans try to emulate his style and fail. Yeah, he is a very unusual, unique figure. So to me, the contradictions in the Trump Republican Party are so profound. How can you be a multi ethnic working class party that gives tax breaks to billionaires and every time you have a choice between billionaires or corporations over, over workers, you choose the corporations. I think that is a, is a deep contradiction that the Democrats will try to exploit.
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Susan Davis
Don, what's you talk to a lot of voters, what's your sense of how they view J.D. vance?
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Don Gonyea
They don't think a lot about J.D. vance, frankly. He doesn't come up and you know, because Ohio was not considered a battleground state this year, that wasn't really in play. I wasn't talking to Ohio voters once we got to the general, that's the place where Vance is best known. But hardcore Democrats, committed Democratic voters were the ones who brought up JD Vance as someone they worry about as the, the kind of heir to whatever it is that Trump, Trump leaves us all with after.
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Susan Davis
Yeah. Although I am glad it is worth probably bringing up the notion of Democrats because I also think following this election, it's a little bit like their 2012 moment. I think that the Democratic Party is asking itself, who are we? What do we stand for? How do we win? Trump might benefit from having an opposition party that is trying to find its own North Star right now.
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Don Gonyea
I think you're right.
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Mara Liasson
Yeah. That's for another podcast, obviously. But it was a profound loss, but it was a sweep, not a wave. He didn't have a lot of coattails. That tells you something about how unique he is.
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Don Gonyea
And whatever they, whatever they come up with, I suspect they won't call it an autopsy. All right.
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Susan Davis
We'll leave it there and we'll have more of that conversation, I'm sure. In terms 2025, I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.
- [19:25]
Don Gonyea
I'm Don Gonyea, national political correspondent.
- [19:27]
Mara Liasson
And I'm Mara Liason, senior national political correspondent.
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Susan Davis
And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.