How President Trump Is Reshaping The Justice Department - The NPR Politics Podcast

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[00:01]
Ryan Lucas
Imagine, if you will, a show from NPR that's not like npr, a show that focuses not on the important, but the stupid, which features stories about people smuggling animals in their pants, incompetent criminals, and ridiculous science studies. And call it Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, because the good names were taken. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. Yes, that is what it is called. Wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:25]
Tamara Keith
Hi, I'm Maya. And I'm Clara. And we're on our way to Santa Fe, New Mexico.
[00:31]
Susan Davis
This podcast, Casper's Recording at 12:19pm on Tuesday, May 6th.
[00:36]
Tamara Keith
Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but hopefully we'll still be enjoying some delicious food in Santa Fe. Okay, here's the show.
[00:49]
Susan Davis
That was lovely, but I'm like, are two 10 year olds on a road trip alone together? They sounded quite young to me.
[00:54]
Tamara Keith
It sounds to me like they were forced to listen to the NPR Politics podcast long enough on that road trip that then they were like, you guys should do a timestamp.
[01:01]
Susan Davis
Santa Fe is a lovely town. I don't know if either of you have been, but it's beautiful.
[01:05]
Ryan Lucas
I've been to Santa Fe. It's lovely.
[01:06]
Susan Davis
Yes, it is lovely. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.
[01:11]
Tamara Keith
I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.
[01:13]
Ryan Lucas
And I'm Ryan Lucas. I cover the Justice Department.
[01:15]
Susan Davis
And today, how President Trump is reshaping the Justice Department and what it might mean for the rule of law. Ryan Attorney General Pam Bondi pledged at her confirmation hearing that she would end what Donald Trump has called the, quote, weaponization of the Justice Department. How has that played out in real terms?
[01:31]
Ryan Lucas
So in Bondi's own telling, and certainly in the view of Trump supporters, she has taken steps to end the purported weaponization of the Justice Department. They point to, for example, cases that they've dropped against anti abortion protesters that were brought under the Biden administration. And of course, one of the reasons that Bondi and Trump feel so strongly that the department was weaponized is because of the prosecutions of Trump himself, which of course are no longer ongoing. But critics, including department veterans, say that despite all of Bondi's talk of ending the weaponization of the Justice Department, what in fact is going on is she is weaponizing it herself. And to give you an example of where some of this criticism is coming from, I spoke to the former pardon attorney of the Justice Department, a woman by the name of Liz Oyer.
[02:15]
Susan Davis
The attorney general has made it clear that directions are coming from the very top, from the president, and she is there to do his bidding. That means the pursuing enemies of the President. That means doing favors for friends of the president. The Department of Justice is essentially whatever the President wants it to be right now. Ryan, I also think one of the most high profile actions of this Justice Department was essentially ordering the case against New York City Mayor Eric Adams to basically just be thrown out.
[02:42]
Ryan Lucas
That's right. This is the corruption case against Adams last year. And in the direction that was given to prosecutors in New York to drop that case, the then deputy acting Deputy Attorney General basically said, this isn't based on the evidence in this case or the facts in this case. We've come to it as decision that this needs to be made. And there was a suggestion that it got in the way of Eric Adams helping out this administration with its immigration enforcement. And so we saw mass resignations from prosecutors in New York. We saw the, the Justice Department leadership push this case on the Public Integrity section in Washington. We saw mass resignations there because people thought that this is not the proper grounds for dismissing a case. It isn't based on the facts and the law. It's based on politics.
[03:22]
Susan Davis
And you know this, Ryan. But I think that one of the perceptions sometimes of these departments or lawyers is that they are political actors. But so much, if not nearly all, the career force of the Justice Department are nonpartisan career officials who generally just had expertise in the area of law that they were a part of.
[03:41]
Ryan Lucas
That's right. And this is something I spoke to a former senior Justice Department official from Trump's first administration. And what this individual told me was that the current leadership came in viewing themselves as in a hostile environment, and they essentially went to war with the career folks. And we've seen that with firings, reassignments, this sort of hostile attitude towards the career staff that, as Oyer told me, has expertise in all these various different aspects of law. And this administration, I've been told by multiple people, is just not engaging with them. And it appears, and this is what the former official told me as well, is that basically the directions appear to be coming from the White House and then they're being pushed down.
[04:24]
Tamara Keith
And Ryan, to be clear, this is happening at the State Department. It is happening at the Department of Energy or the Department of Education. It's happening all over the government. The idea of sort of a hostile takeover where career officials, career civil servants are looked upon with suspicion by Trump and his allies.
[04:43]
Susan Davis
The president was asked directly about his involvement in the doj. In an interview just this past weekend on Meet the Press last month, you directed your Attorney General, Pam Bondi, to review two people who you perceive to be your political adversaries. And yet you told me in December that you would not direct the Justice Department to investigate your political foes. What changed?
[05:04]
Ryan Lucas
Well, no, I just look at people, and I'm not directing anybody. They looked at these two people. They might have known it or they might have heard it from two years ago.
[05:14]
Susan Davis
Tam, what do you make of that?
[05:15]
Tamara Keith
It's pretty hard to put an arm's length between yourself and an executive order that you literally signed. And he did sign an executive order urging the Justice Department to look at two people. Chris Krebs, who was in the first Trump administration and, and said that the 2020 election was not stolen. And also Miles Taylor, who was known as Anonymous and, and wrote a book about his experience in the Trump administration. I mean, these are people who President Trump is very clearly asking Attorney General Pam Bondi to, to look into. And I think another thing that's just worth noting here is also in that interview, President Trump talked about the Justice Department, talked about Pam Bondi, essentially, as his lawyers.
[06:02]
Ryan Lucas
I will also note on this line that he had about not directing anybody, that when Pam Bondi introduced Trump for his speech in the great hall of the Justice Department earlier this year, this is what she said.
[06:13]
Susan Davis
And we all work for the greatest president in the history of our country. We are so proud to work at the directive of Donald Trump.
[06:22]
Ryan Lucas
So we have Trump himself talking about directing people, and we have the attorney general herself saying that we work at the direction of Donald Trump.
[06:30]
Susan Davis
Certainly not subtle. Ryan, there's other details in your reporting that I want to get to before we take a break, but there are some examples that are showing how much the Justice Department has changed or things that have happened in big and small ways. I think of one of the smaller things, but notable to me, Mel Gibson, what happened there?
[06:45]
Ryan Lucas
Right. So the, the attorney general basically directed the, the pardon attorney's office to start looking at restoring gun rights to people who had lost them because of criminal convictions. One of these individuals is Mel Gibson, who is a very prominent supporter of Donald Trump. Mel Gibson from Lethal Weapon, among other films. And what the pardon attorney, what Liz Oyer told me, is that she had concerns about restoring Gibson's gun rights because he had a domestic violence conviction. And there's evidence that people who have domestic violence convictions can return to violence. And so this was a public safety issue for her. And so she recommended that Gibson not have his gun rights restored. Hours later, she was fired. She was not told exactly why, but the timing here.
[07:28]
Susan Davis
And Mel Gibson's gun rights were restored.
[07:30]
Ryan Lucas
Right. And for her, this is an example of one, what we talked about earlier about the, the political leadership of the Justice Department not listening to career staff and the advice that they give. And then the second one is it points to bigger concerns about what is driving decision making at the Justice Department. And in her view, that's it's politics.
[07:50]
Susan Davis
In one of the bigger ways. There's also been a ton of disruption in the Civil Rights Division, which is one of the crown jewels of the Justice Department. What has happened there?
[07:58]
Ryan Lucas
One, there's been a mass exodus of attorneys from the division, people leaving of their own accord, people taking the fork in the road. And then you also have people being reassigned, kind of pushed out to other things. One official who I spoke to described this to me as complete insanity, said that they're essentially the new administration has taken an axe to the Civil Rights Division and said that it's unrecognizable what's happening and who knows what is going to be left of it. Also, it's important to say that, look, there are frequently shifts in priorities from administration to administration. We saw that from Obama to Trump won in terms of what their focus is going to be. And that's normal. That is not what is going on. Now, I am told this is a complete upending of the traditional role of the Civil Rights division. And it's been described to me as essentially abandoning the traditional role, the historic mission which would be protecting the vulnerable, the marginalized, particularly the rights of minorities. We're talking about voting rights, civil rights, constitutional policing, housing, education, all those things. That's out, I'm told. And the focus now is primarily on enforcing Trump's executive orders on anti Semitism, gender, so anti trans stuff. This is a massive change and it's going to have an impact for a long time to come.
[09:12]
Susan Davis
All right. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. This message comes from Saatva. Saatva luxury mattresses are made in America by expert craftsmen using the highest quality materials so that your mattress will provide comfortable sleep for years and years. Saatva mattresses are always delivered to your home and set up in the room of your choice. They're never fold squeezed into a small box. Visit swatva.com NPR where NPR listeners save an additional $200.
[09:45]
Tamara Keith
You may have heard that President Trump has issued an executive order seeking to block all federal funding to npr. This is the latest in a series of threats to media organizations across the country. Millions of people depend on the NPR network now more than ever. We're depending on you. Please donate today@donate.NPR.org this message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify.
[10:11]
Ryan Lucas
Start selling with Shopify today. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO.
[10:15]
Susan Davis
Ready, Shopify is the only tool you.
[10:17]
Ryan Lucas
Need to start, run and grow your.
[10:19]
Susan Davis
Business without the struggle. Go to shopify.com NPR and we're back. And Tim, as you noted, Trump taking greater control of the Justice Department certainly falls in line with his more expansive view of the executive branch, that the executive branch should be more responsive to the whims of the executive. But we should also note that these guard rails at the Justice Department were specifically put in place to restrain the executive.
[10:46]
Tamara Keith
Yes. And this all goes back to the Nixon era, which I feel like I'm a broken record on, because many of the norms, laws and other guardrails that President Trump is blowing past in this second term were put into place after the Nixon administration, after Nixon resigned because of his weaponization of the government against his political enemies. And although there are exceptions here, attorneys general in, in recent times have done what they can to, to make it clear that they are not working at the direction of the president of the United States. They have taken great pains. And, in fact, Merrick Garland, the attorney general under President Biden, it was widely reported that President Biden was not happy with Merrick Garland and the fact that, you know, the investigations into his son Hunter Biden, continued the way they did. But that desire to maintain separation is just completely gone. I mean, I multiple times now, Pam Bondi has done cable news, TV hits from the lawn of the White House, which I just don't know that you would have seen other AGs doing.
[11:57]
Susan Davis
I'd also note that Donald Trump firing the inspectors general across the government is also one of those those offices that were also created by Congress as a response to Watergate. So it's not just at the Justice Department where he's sort of trying to unshackle the restraints that have been put on the presidency.
[12:13]
Ryan Lucas
And I'll just toss something in here because I think it's important to note that the Justice Department is kind of unique in the sense that, yes, it's a part of an administration and they are entitled to help the president with his policy agenda on many things. But when it comes to prosecutions in particular, that's where there definitely needs to be an arm's length, that's been the norm, so that you don't have a president directing investigations against perceived political enemies, using the vast power of the Justice Department to punish people who he or she does not like.
[12:44]
Susan Davis
Although, Ryan, that just reminds me of the related, but separate from the doj, how involved the president has been in personally targeting private law firms and trying to play a hand in how they operate.
[12:58]
Ryan Lucas
Well, this is, this has been a big thing that's really cut at the foundations of kind of the, the rule of law in this country. And it's Trump's use of executive orders. This is what you're talking about, use of executive orders to go after these, these, these private law firms imposing all sorts of punitive measures against them. And in essence, for representing people or causes that the president doesn't like, or for employing attorneys at one point who he didn't like, who he has political beef with. So we have seen some law firms challenge these executive orders in court. We've seen some law firms cut deals with the president. We had actually a development just at the end of last week where a court permanently blocked Trump's executive order against the law firm Perkins Coie, ruling that it was unconstitutional. Really a very strongly worded order condemning the president's use of basically the powers of the White House to go after a private law firm for doing what law firms are supposed to do, that zealously advocate on behalf of their clients, and warning that this really is something that if these things stay in place, could undermine the whole judicial system and rule of law in this country.
[14:13]
Tamara Keith
Well, and a fundamental part of democracy is believing in the rule of law. Because if you don't believe in the rule of law, if you don't believe that the justice system is going to be fair, then why will regular people follow the law?
[14:31]
Susan Davis
I mean, Ryan, this to me, is one of those podcasts where we talk about something that is very, very serious. And it's almost like our words cannot do justice, pun intended, to how fundamental and transformational this administration could be to the question of the rule of law.
[14:48]
Ryan Lucas
They could. And where this is going to ultimately land. This has been, what, 105, 106 days.
[14:57]
Susan Davis
A long way to go.
[14:59]
Ryan Lucas
We just don't know. But a lot of people who I talk to, and we're talking attorneys at big law firms, attorneys at small civil rights outfits inside and outside the Justice Department, constitutional scholars are watching all of this with a lot of concern. We've seen attacks directed at the federal judiciary coming from the president and his supporters, calls for impeachment of federal judges who rule against them. We've seen pushback from the judiciary. We've seen law firms, as we just talked about, pushing back. But where ultimately we're going to land on this spectrum, I think we just don't know yet. But there's certainly a lot of concern from people I'm talking to, in the.
[15:35]
Susan Davis
Words of Mar Lyson, a rolling constitutional confrontation for the next four years. All right. We're going to leave it there for today. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.
[15:43]
Tamara Keith
I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.
[15:45]
Ryan Lucas
And I'm Ryan Lucas. I cover the Justice Department.
[15:47]
Susan Davis
And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.
[15:59]
Tamara Keith
Know that fizzy feeling you get when you read something really good? Watch the movie everyone's been talking about or catch the show that the Internet can't get over. At the Pop Culture Happy Hour Podcast, we chase that feeling four times a week. We'll serve you recommendations and commentary on the buzziest movies, tv, music and more, from lowbrow to highbrow to the stuff in between. Catch the Pop Culture Happy hour podcast from NPR.
[16:24]
Ryan Lucas
When Malcolm Gladwell presented NPR's Throughline podcast with a Peabody Award, he praised it for its historical and moral clarity. On Throughline, we take you back in time to the origins of what's in the news, like presidential power, aging and evangelicalism. Time travel with us every week on the Throughline podcast from NPR.

Summary6 min read

The NPR Politics Podcast: “How President Trump Is Reshaping The Justice Department”

Release Date: May 6, 2025

Introduction

In the episode titled “How President Trump Is Reshaping The Justice Department,” hosts Susan Davis, Tamara Keith, and Ryan Lucas delve into the profound transformations occurring within the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) under President Donald Trump's administration. The discussion centers on Attorney General Pam Bondi's initiatives, the alleged weaponization of the DOJ, and the broader implications for the rule of law in America.

Attorney General Pam Bondi's Mission to End DOJ Weaponization

Susan Davis opens the dialogue by highlighting Attorney General Pam Bondi's pledge during her confirmation hearing to end what Trump has described as the "weaponization of the Justice Department."

Susan Davis [01:14]: "Attorney General Pam Bondi pledged at her confirmation hearing that she would end what Donald Trump has called the, quote, weaponization of the Justice Department."

Ryan Lucas elaborates on Bondi's actions, noting that Trump supporters view her steps as fulfillment of this pledge. He references the dropping of cases against anti-abortion protesters initiated under the Biden administration and the cessation of prosecutions against Trump himself.

Ryan Lucas [01:31]: "They point to, for example, cases that they've dropped against anti abortion protesters that were brought under the Biden administration... critics, including department veterans, say that despite all of Bondi's talk of ending the weaponization of the Justice Department, what in fact is going on is she is weaponizing it herself."

Criticism and Allegations of DOJ Weaponization

The hosts discuss critical perspectives regarding the DOJ's direction under Bondi, emphasizing allegations that the department is being manipulated for political purposes. Susan Davis mentions her conversation with Liz Oyer, the former pardon attorney, who asserts that the DOJ is acting under presidential directives to pursue Trump's adversaries.

Susan Davis [02:15]: "The attorney general has made it clear that directions are coming from the very top, from the president, and she is there to do his bidding... The Department of Justice is essentially whatever the President wants it to be right now."

Ryan Lucas supports this by citing the decision to drop the corruption case against New York City Mayor Eric Adams. He describes how the DOJ leadership overruled evidence-based prosecutions, leading to mass resignations and internal turmoil.

Ryan Lucas [02:42]: "The corruption case against Adams last year... there was a suggestion that it got in the way of Eric Adams helping out this administration with its immigration enforcement... it is based on politics."

Internal Conflict Within the DOJ

The episode highlights significant internal conflict within the DOJ, particularly between new leadership and longtime career officials. Ryan Lucas references a former senior DOJ official who described the current administration’s approach as hostile, characterized by firings and reassignments that undermine the department’s expertise.

Ryan Lucas [03:41]: "The current leadership came in viewing themselves as in a hostile environment, and they essentially went to war with the career folks."

Susan Davis counters by acknowledging that while perceptions of political bias exist, the majority of DOJ staff are dedicated nonpartisan professionals. However, the actions under Bondi’s leadership seem to contradict this commitment.

Susan Davis [03:22]: "The career force of the Justice Department are nonpartisan career officials who generally just had expertise in the area of law that they were a part of."

Notable Cases Under Scrutiny

Eric Adams Corruption Case

The decision to drop charges against Mayor Eric Adams serves as a primary example of the DOJ's alleged politicization. Ryan Lucas details how pressure from higher-ups led to the dismissal of the case, disregarding legal standards and evidence.

Ryan Lucas [03:22]: "...this is not the proper grounds for dismissing a case. It isn't based on the facts and the law. It's based on politics."

Mel Gibson’s Gun Rights Restoration

Another significant case discussed is the DOJ’s handling of Mel Gibson’s attempt to restore his gun rights. Ryan Lucas explains that Liz Oyer opposed this move due to Gibson’s domestic violence conviction, prioritizing public safety over political favoritism. Her subsequent firing underscores the DOJ's shift away from evidence-based decision-making.

Ryan Lucas [06:45]: "Liz Oyer had concerns about restoring Gibson's gun rights because he had a domestic violence conviction... Hours later, she was fired. She was not told exactly why, but the timing here."

Disruption in the Civil Rights Division

The podcast addresses the upheaval within the DOJ's Civil Rights Division, historically a cornerstone of justice in protecting vulnerable populations. Ryan Lucas describes a mass exodus of attorneys and a significant shift in the division's focus from traditional civil rights issues to enforcing Trump-era executive orders on topics like antisemitism and gender policies.

Ryan Lucas [07:57]: "The new administration has taken an axe to the Civil Rights Division and said that it's unrecognizable what's happening and who knows what is going to be left of it."

Susan Davis emphasizes the long-term impact of these changes, noting the abandonment of the division’s historic mission to protect minorities and enforce constitutional rights.

Ryan Lucas [08:00]: "...there are frequently shifts in priorities from administration to administration... This is being described as abandoning the traditional role, the historic mission..."

Broader Implications for the Rule of Law

The discussion broadens to consider how these DOJ changes align with President Trump’s expansive view of executive power. Tamara Keith connects current actions to historical precedents set post-Watergate, highlighting the erosion of institutional safeguards designed to prevent executive overreach.

Tamara Keith [10:46]: "These guard rails at the Justice Department were specifically put in place to restrain the executive... The norms, laws and other guardrails that President Trump is blowing past..."

Ryan Lucas underscores the critical role of the DOJ in maintaining the rule of law, particularly in prosecutions, which traditionally require independence from presidential influence to ensure fairness and impartiality.

Ryan Lucas [12:13]: "...when it comes to prosecutions in particular, that's where there definitely needs to be an arm's length, that's been the norm, so that you don't have a president directing investigations against perceived political enemies."

Judiciary and Legal Challenges

The hosts highlight increased tensions between the executive branch and the judiciary, including attempts to target private law firms through executive orders. Ryan Lucas cites the court's permanent block of Trump's executive order against the law firm Perkins Coie as a pivotal moment protecting judicial independence.

Ryan Lucas [12:57]: "...a court permanently blocked Trump's executive order against the law firm Perkins Coie, ruling that it was unconstitutional."

Tamara Keith and Susan Davis discuss the broader implications of undermining the legal system, emphasizing that the belief in a fair and impartial judiciary is fundamental to democracy.

Tamara Keith [14:12]: "A fundamental part of democracy is believing in the rule of law... if you don't believe that the justice system is going to be fair, then why will regular people follow the law?"

Conclusion

Susan Davis summarizes the gravity of the DOJ's transformation under President Trump, labeling it a “rolling constitutional confrontation” with lasting effects on the American legal landscape.

Susan Davis [15:35]: "Words of a rolling constitutional confrontation for the next four years."

The episode concludes with an acknowledgment of the significant challenges facing the DOJ and the broader implications for democratic governance and the rule of law in the United States.

Key Takeaways

Weaponization Allegations: While AG Pam Bondi claims to end the DOJ's weaponization, critics argue she is perpetuating it for political gains.
Internal DOJ Turmoil: There is significant internal conflict within the DOJ, with career officials feeling undermined by political directives.
Case Examples: High-profile cases like that of Eric Adams and Mel Gibson illustrate the DOJ’s shift towards politicized decision-making.
Civil Rights Division Overhaul: The division, once a protector of minority rights, is now being repurposed to enforce administration-specific policies.
Rule of Law at Risk: The erosion of DOJ independence threatens the foundational principle of an impartial and fair justice system.
Judiciary Pushback: Courts are actively resisting executive attempts to influence judicial processes and private law firms.
Democratic Foundations: The integrity of the rule of law is crucial for maintaining public trust and democratic governance.

This detailed exploration by The NPR Politics Podcast underscores the significant and potentially transformational impact of President Trump's administration on the Department of Justice, raising urgent questions about the future of the American legal system and the preservation of democratic norms.

Loading summary

Transcript53 lines

[00:01]
Ryan Lucas
Imagine, if you will, a show from NPR that's not like npr, a show that focuses not on the important, but the stupid, which features stories about people smuggling animals in their pants, incompetent criminals, and ridiculous science studies. And call it Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, because the good names were taken. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. Yes, that is what it is called. Wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:25]
Tamara Keith
Hi, I'm Maya. And I'm Clara. And we're on our way to Santa Fe, New Mexico.
[00:31]
Susan Davis
This podcast, Casper's Recording at 12:19pm on Tuesday, May 6th.
[00:36]
Tamara Keith
Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but hopefully we'll still be enjoying some delicious food in Santa Fe. Okay, here's the show.
[00:49]
Susan Davis
That was lovely, but I'm like, are two 10 year olds on a road trip alone together? They sounded quite young to me.
[00:54]
Tamara Keith
It sounds to me like they were forced to listen to the NPR Politics podcast long enough on that road trip that then they were like, you guys should do a timestamp.
[01:01]
Susan Davis
Santa Fe is a lovely town. I don't know if either of you have been, but it's beautiful.
[01:05]
Ryan Lucas
I've been to Santa Fe. It's lovely.
[01:06]
Susan Davis
Yes, it is lovely. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.
[01:11]
Tamara Keith
I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.
[01:13]
Ryan Lucas
And I'm Ryan Lucas. I cover the Justice Department.
[01:15]
Susan Davis
And today, how President Trump is reshaping the Justice Department and what it might mean for the rule of law. Ryan Attorney General Pam Bondi pledged at her confirmation hearing that she would end what Donald Trump has called the, quote, weaponization of the Justice Department. How has that played out in real terms?
[01:31]
Ryan Lucas
So in Bondi's own telling, and certainly in the view of Trump supporters, she has taken steps to end the purported weaponization of the Justice Department. They point to, for example, cases that they've dropped against anti abortion protesters that were brought under the Biden administration. And of course, one of the reasons that Bondi and Trump feel so strongly that the department was weaponized is because of the prosecutions of Trump himself, which of course are no longer ongoing. But critics, including department veterans, say that despite all of Bondi's talk of ending the weaponization of the Justice Department, what in fact is going on is she is weaponizing it herself. And to give you an example of where some of this criticism is coming from, I spoke to the former pardon attorney of the Justice Department, a woman by the name of Liz Oyer.
[02:15]
Susan Davis
The attorney general has made it clear that directions are coming from the very top, from the president, and she is there to do his bidding. That means the pursuing enemies of the President. That means doing favors for friends of the president. The Department of Justice is essentially whatever the President wants it to be right now. Ryan, I also think one of the most high profile actions of this Justice Department was essentially ordering the case against New York City Mayor Eric Adams to basically just be thrown out.
[02:42]
Ryan Lucas
That's right. This is the corruption case against Adams last year. And in the direction that was given to prosecutors in New York to drop that case, the then deputy acting Deputy Attorney General basically said, this isn't based on the evidence in this case or the facts in this case. We've come to it as decision that this needs to be made. And there was a suggestion that it got in the way of Eric Adams helping out this administration with its immigration enforcement. And so we saw mass resignations from prosecutors in New York. We saw the, the Justice Department leadership push this case on the Public Integrity section in Washington. We saw mass resignations there because people thought that this is not the proper grounds for dismissing a case. It isn't based on the facts and the law. It's based on politics.
[03:22]
Susan Davis
And you know this, Ryan. But I think that one of the perceptions sometimes of these departments or lawyers is that they are political actors. But so much, if not nearly all, the career force of the Justice Department are nonpartisan career officials who generally just had expertise in the area of law that they were a part of.
[03:41]
Ryan Lucas
That's right. And this is something I spoke to a former senior Justice Department official from Trump's first administration. And what this individual told me was that the current leadership came in viewing themselves as in a hostile environment, and they essentially went to war with the career folks. And we've seen that with firings, reassignments, this sort of hostile attitude towards the career staff that, as Oyer told me, has expertise in all these various different aspects of law. And this administration, I've been told by multiple people, is just not engaging with them. And it appears, and this is what the former official told me as well, is that basically the directions appear to be coming from the White House and then they're being pushed down.
[04:24]
Tamara Keith
And Ryan, to be clear, this is happening at the State Department. It is happening at the Department of Energy or the Department of Education. It's happening all over the government. The idea of sort of a hostile takeover where career officials, career civil servants are looked upon with suspicion by Trump and his allies.
[04:43]
Susan Davis
The president was asked directly about his involvement in the doj. In an interview just this past weekend on Meet the Press last month, you directed your Attorney General, Pam Bondi, to review two people who you perceive to be your political adversaries. And yet you told me in December that you would not direct the Justice Department to investigate your political foes. What changed?
[05:04]
Ryan Lucas
Well, no, I just look at people, and I'm not directing anybody. They looked at these two people. They might have known it or they might have heard it from two years ago.
[05:14]
Susan Davis
Tam, what do you make of that?
[05:15]
Tamara Keith
It's pretty hard to put an arm's length between yourself and an executive order that you literally signed. And he did sign an executive order urging the Justice Department to look at two people. Chris Krebs, who was in the first Trump administration and, and said that the 2020 election was not stolen. And also Miles Taylor, who was known as Anonymous and, and wrote a book about his experience in the Trump administration. I mean, these are people who President Trump is very clearly asking Attorney General Pam Bondi to, to look into. And I think another thing that's just worth noting here is also in that interview, President Trump talked about the Justice Department, talked about Pam Bondi, essentially, as his lawyers.
[06:02]
Ryan Lucas
I will also note on this line that he had about not directing anybody, that when Pam Bondi introduced Trump for his speech in the great hall of the Justice Department earlier this year, this is what she said.
[06:13]
Susan Davis
And we all work for the greatest president in the history of our country. We are so proud to work at the directive of Donald Trump.
[06:22]
Ryan Lucas
So we have Trump himself talking about directing people, and we have the attorney general herself saying that we work at the direction of Donald Trump.
[06:30]
Susan Davis
Certainly not subtle. Ryan, there's other details in your reporting that I want to get to before we take a break, but there are some examples that are showing how much the Justice Department has changed or things that have happened in big and small ways. I think of one of the smaller things, but notable to me, Mel Gibson, what happened there?
[06:45]
Ryan Lucas
Right. So the, the attorney general basically directed the, the pardon attorney's office to start looking at restoring gun rights to people who had lost them because of criminal convictions. One of these individuals is Mel Gibson, who is a very prominent supporter of Donald Trump. Mel Gibson from Lethal Weapon, among other films. And what the pardon attorney, what Liz Oyer told me, is that she had concerns about restoring Gibson's gun rights because he had a domestic violence conviction. And there's evidence that people who have domestic violence convictions can return to violence. And so this was a public safety issue for her. And so she recommended that Gibson not have his gun rights restored. Hours later, she was fired. She was not told exactly why, but the timing here.
[07:28]
Susan Davis
And Mel Gibson's gun rights were restored.
[07:30]
Ryan Lucas
Right. And for her, this is an example of one, what we talked about earlier about the, the political leadership of the Justice Department not listening to career staff and the advice that they give. And then the second one is it points to bigger concerns about what is driving decision making at the Justice Department. And in her view, that's it's politics.
[07:50]
Susan Davis
In one of the bigger ways. There's also been a ton of disruption in the Civil Rights Division, which is one of the crown jewels of the Justice Department. What has happened there?
[07:58]
Ryan Lucas
One, there's been a mass exodus of attorneys from the division, people leaving of their own accord, people taking the fork in the road. And then you also have people being reassigned, kind of pushed out to other things. One official who I spoke to described this to me as complete insanity, said that they're essentially the new administration has taken an axe to the Civil Rights Division and said that it's unrecognizable what's happening and who knows what is going to be left of it. Also, it's important to say that, look, there are frequently shifts in priorities from administration to administration. We saw that from Obama to Trump won in terms of what their focus is going to be. And that's normal. That is not what is going on. Now, I am told this is a complete upending of the traditional role of the Civil Rights division. And it's been described to me as essentially abandoning the traditional role, the historic mission which would be protecting the vulnerable, the marginalized, particularly the rights of minorities. We're talking about voting rights, civil rights, constitutional policing, housing, education, all those things. That's out, I'm told. And the focus now is primarily on enforcing Trump's executive orders on anti Semitism, gender, so anti trans stuff. This is a massive change and it's going to have an impact for a long time to come.
[09:12]
Susan Davis
All right. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. This message comes from Saatva. Saatva luxury mattresses are made in America by expert craftsmen using the highest quality materials so that your mattress will provide comfortable sleep for years and years. Saatva mattresses are always delivered to your home and set up in the room of your choice. They're never fold squeezed into a small box. Visit swatva.com NPR where NPR listeners save an additional $200.
[09:45]
Tamara Keith
You may have heard that President Trump has issued an executive order seeking to block all federal funding to npr. This is the latest in a series of threats to media organizations across the country. Millions of people depend on the NPR network now more than ever. We're depending on you. Please donate today@donate.NPR.org this message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify.
[10:11]
Ryan Lucas
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[10:15]
Susan Davis
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[10:17]
Ryan Lucas
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[10:19]
Susan Davis
Business without the struggle. Go to shopify.com NPR and we're back. And Tim, as you noted, Trump taking greater control of the Justice Department certainly falls in line with his more expansive view of the executive branch, that the executive branch should be more responsive to the whims of the executive. But we should also note that these guard rails at the Justice Department were specifically put in place to restrain the executive.
[10:46]
Tamara Keith
Yes. And this all goes back to the Nixon era, which I feel like I'm a broken record on, because many of the norms, laws and other guardrails that President Trump is blowing past in this second term were put into place after the Nixon administration, after Nixon resigned because of his weaponization of the government against his political enemies. And although there are exceptions here, attorneys general in, in recent times have done what they can to, to make it clear that they are not working at the direction of the president of the United States. They have taken great pains. And, in fact, Merrick Garland, the attorney general under President Biden, it was widely reported that President Biden was not happy with Merrick Garland and the fact that, you know, the investigations into his son Hunter Biden, continued the way they did. But that desire to maintain separation is just completely gone. I mean, I multiple times now, Pam Bondi has done cable news, TV hits from the lawn of the White House, which I just don't know that you would have seen other AGs doing.
[11:57]
Susan Davis
I'd also note that Donald Trump firing the inspectors general across the government is also one of those those offices that were also created by Congress as a response to Watergate. So it's not just at the Justice Department where he's sort of trying to unshackle the restraints that have been put on the presidency.
[12:13]
Ryan Lucas
And I'll just toss something in here because I think it's important to note that the Justice Department is kind of unique in the sense that, yes, it's a part of an administration and they are entitled to help the president with his policy agenda on many things. But when it comes to prosecutions in particular, that's where there definitely needs to be an arm's length, that's been the norm, so that you don't have a president directing investigations against perceived political enemies, using the vast power of the Justice Department to punish people who he or she does not like.
[12:44]
Susan Davis
Although, Ryan, that just reminds me of the related, but separate from the doj, how involved the president has been in personally targeting private law firms and trying to play a hand in how they operate.
[12:58]
Ryan Lucas
Well, this is, this has been a big thing that's really cut at the foundations of kind of the, the rule of law in this country. And it's Trump's use of executive orders. This is what you're talking about, use of executive orders to go after these, these, these private law firms imposing all sorts of punitive measures against them. And in essence, for representing people or causes that the president doesn't like, or for employing attorneys at one point who he didn't like, who he has political beef with. So we have seen some law firms challenge these executive orders in court. We've seen some law firms cut deals with the president. We had actually a development just at the end of last week where a court permanently blocked Trump's executive order against the law firm Perkins Coie, ruling that it was unconstitutional. Really a very strongly worded order condemning the president's use of basically the powers of the White House to go after a private law firm for doing what law firms are supposed to do, that zealously advocate on behalf of their clients, and warning that this really is something that if these things stay in place, could undermine the whole judicial system and rule of law in this country.
[14:13]
Tamara Keith
Well, and a fundamental part of democracy is believing in the rule of law. Because if you don't believe in the rule of law, if you don't believe that the justice system is going to be fair, then why will regular people follow the law?
[14:31]
Susan Davis
I mean, Ryan, this to me, is one of those podcasts where we talk about something that is very, very serious. And it's almost like our words cannot do justice, pun intended, to how fundamental and transformational this administration could be to the question of the rule of law.
[14:48]
Ryan Lucas
They could. And where this is going to ultimately land. This has been, what, 105, 106 days.
[14:57]
Susan Davis
A long way to go.
[14:59]
Ryan Lucas
We just don't know. But a lot of people who I talk to, and we're talking attorneys at big law firms, attorneys at small civil rights outfits inside and outside the Justice Department, constitutional scholars are watching all of this with a lot of concern. We've seen attacks directed at the federal judiciary coming from the president and his supporters, calls for impeachment of federal judges who rule against them. We've seen pushback from the judiciary. We've seen law firms, as we just talked about, pushing back. But where ultimately we're going to land on this spectrum, I think we just don't know yet. But there's certainly a lot of concern from people I'm talking to, in the.
[15:35]
Susan Davis
Words of Mar Lyson, a rolling constitutional confrontation for the next four years. All right. We're going to leave it there for today. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.
[15:43]
Tamara Keith
I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.
[15:45]
Ryan Lucas
And I'm Ryan Lucas. I cover the Justice Department.
[15:47]
Susan Davis
And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.
[15:59]
Tamara Keith
Know that fizzy feeling you get when you read something really good? Watch the movie everyone's been talking about or catch the show that the Internet can't get over. At the Pop Culture Happy Hour Podcast, we chase that feeling four times a week. We'll serve you recommendations and commentary on the buzziest movies, tv, music and more, from lowbrow to highbrow to the stuff in between. Catch the Pop Culture Happy hour podcast from NPR.
[16:24]
Ryan Lucas
When Malcolm Gladwell presented NPR's Throughline podcast with a Peabody Award, he praised it for its historical and moral clarity. On Throughline, we take you back in time to the origins of what's in the news, like presidential power, aging and evangelicalism. Time travel with us every week on the Throughline podcast from NPR.