How Trump Is Governing In His Second Term

Summary

The NPR Politics Podcast: "How Trump Is Governing In His Second Term"

Release Date: January 27, 2025

In this episode of The NPR Politics Podcast, NPR’s seasoned political reporters—Deepa Shivaram, Tamara Keith, and Domenico Montanaro—delve into President Donald Trump’s governance strategies during his second term. The discussion centers on unprecedented moves within the administration, implications for governmental checks and balances, and the ongoing reshaping of Trump’s cabinet. The episode, recorded on Monday, January 27, 2025, provides a comprehensive analysis of Trump’s actions and their broader impact on American politics.

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1. Mass Dismissal of Independent Inspectors General

Timestamp: 01:06

The episode opens with a significant development: President Trump’s decision to fire approximately 17 independent inspectors general (IGs) within the White House. These IGs are crucial for investigating government operations, ensuring accountability, and preventing waste, fraud, and abuse within various federal agencies.

Deepa Shivaram begins by highlighting the unprecedented nature of this move:

"On Friday night, the White House fired about 17 independent inspectors general. That was first reported by the Washington Post." (01:06)

Tamara Keith elaborates on the abruptness and method of the dismissals:

"These inspectors general got an email from the White House saying, today's your last day. You're done... One of the inspectors general was interviewed on MSNBC and said he was out to dinner with friends, started getting calls from other inspectors general and was like, oh, I'm so sorry that happened to you." (01:28)

The reporters emphasize that inspectors general are intended to be apolitical and serve long terms to maintain independence from presidential influence:

"These are supposed to be apolitical. They serve long terms, but their terms do not coincide with a president's term." (02:11)

Domenico Montanaro adds context by noting that many of these IGs were initially appointed by Trump, implying that their dismissal may be a strategic move to gain a "clean slate":

"Trump wants a clean slate. And this shows that they're really gonna go deep on who they think is with them or not." (02:26)

2. Legal and Political Implications

The discussion shifts to the legal framework governing the removal of inspectors general. A 2022 law mandates that the President must provide 30 days' notice to Congress before dismissing an IG, a requirement Trump seemingly bypassed.

Domenico Montanaro points out the possible legal violations:

"He didn't do that. Do you think he violated the law?" (04:38)

Lindsey Graham, Senator from South Carolina, weighs in, minimizing the legal breach:

"Technically, yeah, but he has the authority to do it." (04:44)

The hosts discuss the broader implications for checks and balances, expressing concern over the erosion of independent oversight:

"What oversight looks like, what checks and balances even turn into in this era that we're living in." (08:18)

Tamara Keith highlights the lack of robust enforcement mechanisms due to Congressional alignment with Trump’s policies:

"If Congress, and particularly Republicans in Congress are not going to push back hard on this, then there really isn't much of an enforcement mechanism." (06:22)

3. Threatening a Trade War Over Deportation Flights to Colombia

Timestamp: 09:06

The podcast transitions to another controversial action by Trump: threatening a trade war over deportation flights to Colombia. This incident involves two military transport planes carrying Colombian citizens facing rejection by Colombian authorities.

Tamara Keith outlines the sequence of events:

"President Trump threatened to start a trade war over deportation flights to Colombia... Trump went on Truth Social and said that there would be tariffs, there would be other sanctions." (09:25)

Domenico Montanaro contextualizes the incident within Trump's broader foreign policy approach:

"This is not unexpected because Trump had promised that he was going to use tariffs to leverage allies." (10:54)

He further explains the implications for U.S.-Colombia relations and contrasts it with typical diplomatic practices:

"In a typical administration, arranging for flights... would be handled through diplomatic channels. But this is the Trump administration, and Trump wants to send a message." (10:13)

Tamara Keith notes that despite the public confrontation, the issue was resolved with Colombia agreeing to resume flight operations:

"Colombia is going to resume accepting flights. Trump asserted dominance, and that was the point." (12:15)

4. Upcoming Hearings for Trump’s Cabinet Picks

Timestamp: 12:37

The episode concludes by previewing upcoming hearings for Trump’s controversial cabinet nominees: RFK Jr., Tulsi Gabbard, and Kash Patel. These hearings are pivotal in shaping the administration’s future policies and strategies.

Domenico Montanaro provides an overview of the nominees and the challenges they face:

"RFK Jr. is going to be testifying... Tulsi Gabbard might be the most vulnerable of these three... Cash Patel has talked about his enemies list and who he intends to target if confirmed." (12:50)

He expresses particular concern over Tulsi Gabbard’s past associations and how they may be scrutinized:

"There are a lot of Republicans who have questions for her on those things." (12:50)

Deepa Shivaram and Tamara Keith underscore the significance of these hearings in determining the effectiveness and direction of Trump’s second-term governance.

5. Conclusion

The hosts wrap up the episode by reiterating the critical nature of Trump’s actions and their far-reaching consequences for American governance and international relations. They emphasize the potential for increased executive power and the diminishing role of traditional checks and balances.

Domenico Montanaro concludes:

"It really signals, though, that there won't be a lot of checks and balances, that what we're looking at is Trump funneling power and wanting to have more power than maybe we've seen a president have previously." (08:36)

Deepa Shivaram and Tamara Keith thank listeners and encourage them to stay informed through NPR's comprehensive coverage.

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This episode provides an in-depth exploration of President Trump’s governance tactics, highlighting significant shifts in administrative practices, legal boundaries, and the interplay between executive actions and legislative oversight. Through expert analysis and informative discussions, the podcast paints a nuanced picture of the evolving political landscape under Trump’s leadership.

Transcript

[Deepa Shivaram]

This message comes from Carvana. Sell your car the convenient way, Enter your license plate or vin, answer a few questions, and get a real offer in seconds. Go to Carvana.com today.

[Tamara Keith]

Hi, this is Virag in Washington, DC. It's my first day in town after moving across the Atlantic.

[Deepa Shivaram]

This show was recorded at 1:06pm on Monday, January 27, 2025.

[Tamara Keith]

Things may have changed by the time you hear this. All right, here's the show. Welcome.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Wait, what? That just feels like a teaser. What is she doing?

[Deepa Shivaram]

I want to know her whole backstory.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Is this part of the Trump administration? Is this totally unrelated?

[Deepa Shivaram]

I mean, moving across the Atlantic, but, like, from where? That's a big, large swath of options.

[Tamara Keith]

Why is she so calm about moving.

[Deepa Shivaram]

To D.C. yeah, of all things. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover the White House.

[Tamara Keith]

I'm Tamara Keith. I also cover the White House.

[Domenico Montanaro]

And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.

[Deepa Shivaram]

And today we're talking about how President Trump made a show of how he plans to govern in his second term. On Friday night, the White house fired about 17 independent inspectors general. That was first reported by the Washington Post. Tam, a lot to get into, so I'm gonna start with you. There are a lot of questions I have, but I just kind of wanna start at the beginning here. What do we know about what happened?

[Tamara Keith]

Right, so what we know is that these inspectors general got an email from the White House saying, today's your last day. You're done. One of the inspectors general was interviewed on MSNBC and said he was out to dinner with friends, started getting calls from other inspectors general and was like, oh, I'm so sorry that happened to you. Opens his email and learns, oh, I, too, was fired.

[Deepa Shivaram]

The group chat was popping.

[Tamara Keith]

The group chat was, in fact, popping. These are people who investigate the government. Essentially, they are looking for waste, fraud, and abus. They are the ones that investigate the agencies and find out if the agencies are doing what the agencies should be doing.

[Deepa Shivaram]

Right. And. And, you know, to your point, these are jobs that are not political in nature.

[Tamara Keith]

That's right. These are supposed to be apolitical. They serve long terms, but their terms do not coincide with a president's term. There are inspectors general who have served for literally decades, you know, and some.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Of these people were appointed by President Trump himself the first time. But I guess their sin is that they served the following four years, which they're, like you said, supposed to be nonpartisan. But Trump wants A clean slate. And this shows that they're really gonna go deep on who they think is with them or not.

[Deepa Shivaram]

Right. And so what has the President said? Have we heard from him?

[Tamara Keith]

Yes, we have. He came back to the press cabin on Air Force One and talked to reporters at length, and he said, oh, this is just a very common thing to do. It's like replacing the US Attorn attorneys. That's not actually true. Replacing the US Attorneys is a very common thing to do. Replacing the inspectors general is not. When Ronald Reagan did it back in 1981, when he came into office, people were scandalized, Members of Congress were scandalized, and ultimately, many of them were hired back. But what Trump said is that some people thought that some of them were unfair or were not doing the job. And so he said, let's get rid of them. As for who he would put in their place, he was asked, oh, are you going to put your people in there? And Trump said, they're not my people, but we'll put people in there. That will be very good. So he was very casual about it. But certainly this is a stress test, to be clear.

[Deepa Shivaram]

This is not something that every president kind of comes in is just like, okay, clean house. We're going to start from scratch.

[Tamara Keith]

No.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Right. They usually don't do that. I mean, Tam noted that Ronald Reagan did this in the early 1980s when he first came in. But this does appear to violate a 2022 law that Congress passed that said that the President has to give 30 days notice to Congress to say what his reasons are and who the inspectors general would be that would be fired rather than just being able to do it overnight. But that hasn't appeared to matter to Trump here, obviously, because he feels he has the authority to do it. And, you know, on Meet the Press, Lindsey Graham, the senator from South Carolina, was asked about whether or not Trump violated the law.

[Lindsey Graham]

I'm not overly worried about that. It's not the first time people have come in and put their team in. When you win an election, you need people in your administration that reflect your views. So I'm not really worried about that.

[Domenico Montanaro]

But very quickly, the law says he's supposed to give 30 days notice. He didn't do that. Do you think he violated the law?

[Lindsey Graham]

Well, technically, yeah, but he has the authority to do it. So I'm not, you know, losing a whole lot of sleep that he wants to change the personnel out.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Yeah. So technically, yeah, violated the law. But I guess the law in this case, Lindsey Graham feels, is just a Technicality. And, you know, the fact is the Supreme Court has pretty much allowed presidents now going forward to do what they want as long as there there are official acts that they are doing. And this certainly is an official act. So a president has presumed immunity. So nothing in particular of consequence would happen to President Trump anyway. We don't how this is going to shake out as far as what the inspectors general who were fired are going to do. But even so, it would just be a 30 day difference. So I think a lot of Republicans are saying, look, he's getting the people he wants.

[Tamara Keith]

The whole idea of inspectors general to look into agencies came about after the Nixon administration, during this period of government reform in the late 1970s. And they're kind of a quirky thing, Right? They're supposed to be independent, but they are technically part of the executive branch and the President is the head of the executive branch. Congress, with this 2022 law, was saying, yeah, but we want you to give us notice because we actually really care about the independence of inspectors general. We want to know if they're being fired and why. But if Congress, and particularly Republicans in Congress are not going to push back hard on this, then there really isn't much of an enforcement mechanism.

[Deepa Shivaram]

Yeah, big question on the checks and balances of all of this. Someone like Lindsey Graham saying, like, technically, yeah, not making a big deal out of it. He is, you know, someone who was an ally of President Trump. Are there other members of Congress that are, you know, speaking out and maybe taking this in a different way?

[Tamara Keith]

Chuck Grassley, he's a Republican from Iowa, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee. He loves inspectors general, feels that their role is really important. He said in a statement that was obtained by CNN, there may be good reason the IGs were fired. We need to know that. If so, I'd like further explanation from President Trump. Regardless, the 30 day detailed notice of removal that the law demands was not provided to Congress. You know, he, his hair was not on fire about this. Democrats, on the other hand, their hair is on fire, but there isn't much that they can do given that Republicans control the House and the Senate and the White House. I think that the bigger issue then becomes who replaces these inspectors general.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Yeah. And I think that it goes to the bigger picture of the fact that we are supposed to have three independent branches of the government that are supposed to be checks and balances on each other when it comes to the executive branch, which the President runs Congress, which Lindsey Graham is a part of, and the judiciary, which, you know, of course, President Trump appointed three of the Supreme Court justices who are on the court now. And there's a much more of a symbiosis between those three branches than there has been at many times in the past. And it even goes to things that are as small as who the chairman on committees are going to be. Usually that kind of thing is reserved for seniority, people who are playing the inside game pretty well. And the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, demoted Mike Turner, who was the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, but because President Trump said he didn't want him to be there because he doesn't feel he's Trumpy enough.

[Deepa Shivaram]

Yeah, it really leaves a lot of question about what oversight looks like, what checks and balances even turn into in this era that we're living in.

[Domenico Montanaro]

I think it really signals, though, that there won't be a lot of checks and balances, that what we're looking at is Trump funneling power and wanting to have more power than maybe we've seen a president have previously.

[Deepa Shivaram]

Yeah. All right. We're gonna take a quick break and we'll be back in a moment.

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[Deepa Shivaram]

And another piece of news from the weekend. President Trump threatened to start a trade war over deportation flights to Colombia. Once again, Tam, a lot to get into, but I want to start at the beginning. Talk to me about what these flights were. I mean, who were on these flights? Where were they supposed to be going? And then we can get into like, why it got complicated.

[Tamara Keith]

There were two military transport planes with Colombian citizens being deported from the US and basically the president of Colombia said, no, you can't land here. And so then Trump went on Truth Social and was like, said that there would be tariffs, there would be other sanctions, that this is a national security issue and how dare you? And then there were like 12 hours of back and forth of escalating threats. And then it was resolved and Columbia is going to resume accepting flights. And the White House says that President Trump got everything he wants and he won't sign those tariffs as long as Columbia complies.

[Deepa Shivaram]

Okay. So like a lot of maybe back channeling diplomacy that happened, like out loud.

[Tamara Keith]

Yeah. Let's just say that In a typical administration, arranging for flights, US Military flights to enter the airspace of another country is the kind of thing that would be handled through diplomatic channels. We would never have known that it was happening, and it certainly would not have been an escalating war of words on social media. But this is the Trump administration, and Trump wants to send a message, and other countries are trying to just figure out how to exist in Trump's world.

[Deepa Shivaram]

And Domenico, I mean, put this in context for us. I mean, like, how does this really contradict what a quote, unquote, typical president would do when it comes to foreign policy?

[Domenico Montanaro]

Definitely. And I think that it's not unexpected because Trump had promise that he was going to use tariffs to leverage allies. Right. I mean, he'd been talking about imports and wanting to rebalance trade deficits with other countries with US Allies, as opposed to really how he treats a lot of adversaries of the United States, strong men in other countries, people like mbs, Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia, who he feels the US Needs to be able to win over a little bit, to be able to, you know, what he feels is key to the Middle east in bringing peace there. But with a country like Colombia, which is a non NATO ally, the US Usually doesn't take this kind of hardball tack. I will say, though, that it is a win for Trump because these were Colombians who were being sent back to Colombia. They were in the United States without permanent legal status. It'd be different. And I am gonna be very curious to see what happens if, let's say there are Venezuelans in the United States, which we know there are many who are in the. In the country without permanent legal status who are then sent to Colombia because the United States doesn't have relations in the same way with a country like Venezuela. And they're not going to accept planes of Venezuelans back. How Trump is going to deal with that as opposed to dealing with ostensibly what is really an ally?

[Tamara Keith]

Well, and Colombia had accepted flights of Colombians before. It's not like this is the first time a flight of Colombians were deported back to Colombia and the plane was accepted. This is just a new administration, and it turned into a fight. But the fact is, Trump asserted dominance, and I think that was the point.

[Deepa Shivaram]

Yeah. And one more thing I wanted to get to. There are more hearings this week for Trump's pick for his cabinet, including some pretty controversial ones. RFK junior Tulsi Gabbard, Kash Patel. What can we expect? What are you guys watching for this week?

[Domenico Montanaro]

Yeah, I mean, RFK Jr. Is going to be testifying, you know, in his hearing to be HHS secretary, Health and Human Services Secretary, Tulsi Gabbard for director of National Intelligence, Kash Patel for FBI director. And I thought it was really notable that Republicans, John Thune, the majority leader, decided to put these all on one day together because that is flooding the zone. Right. And it's gonna make it really difficult for any news from those to break through for what senators should focus on who might be opposed to them. And then I'm really gonna be curious to see how specifically Tulsi Gabbard does, because I think that she might be the most vulnerable of these three, as controversial and as conspir conspiratorial as all three have been in the past. I do think Gabbard, with her background as remember, she was a Democratic member of Congress, but she has some real issues when it comes to her travels to Syria during the Obama administration, echoing some of the talking points of Russia and Vladimir Putin. I think that there are gonna be a lot of Republicans who have questions for her on those things. And I think substantively, we're gonna learn a lot, too, from these three because, you know, the likelihood is that RFK Jr and Cash Patel are both gonna be confirmed four very important positions in the US government. We know how RFK Jr has felt about things like vaccines, but we also know that there's a lot of Republicans opposed to him because of his pro abortion rights positions. And Cash Patel, who has talked of this enemies list and who he winds up going after if he does that at the FBI. Really some very consequential things that both men could do.

[Deepa Shivaram]

All right. We're going to leave it there for today. I'm I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover the White House.

[Tamara Keith]

I'm Tamara Keith. I also cover the White House.

[Domenico Montanaro]

And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.

[Deepa Shivaram]

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Listen to this podcast sponsor, free on.

[Deepa Shivaram]

Amazon Music with a Prime membership or any podcast app by subscribing to NPR [e-mail] that's plus.NPR.org.