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- [00:01]
Peter Sagal
Imagine, if you will, a show from NPR that's not like npr, a show that focuses not on the important but the stupid, which features stories about people smuggling animals in their pants, incompetent criminals and ridiculous science studies. And call it Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, because the good names were taken. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. Yes, that is what it is called. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:26]
Nick
Hey, this is Nick from Baton Rouge, and we just finished boiling up 120 pounds of crawfish and tons of fish on this beautiful Louisiana day.
- [00:35]
Susan Davis
This podcast was recorded at 1:21pm on Wednesday, May 7.
- [00:39]
Nick
Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but we're hoping to have enough leftover tales for a nice etouffee and maybe enough potatoes for some potato salad. Enjoy the show.
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Susan Davis
I love a crawfish pull.
- [00:54]
Asma Khalid
I love to send us these like timestamps that are so of the crawfish boil in Louisiana.
- [01:00]
Susan Davis
It's a good day. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.
- [01:05]
Asma Khalid
And I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House.
- [01:07]
Susan Davis
And NPR international affairs correspondent Jackie Northam joins us today because we're talking about U.S. canada relations. Hey, Jackie, thanks for coming back on the pod.
- [01:16]
Jackie Northam
Thanks very much.
- [01:17]
Susan Davis
So newly elected Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney made his inaugural visit to the White House on Tuesday. This comes at a time where relations between our two generally friendly countries have been unusually tense. We're going to talk about what happened in that meeting in a moment. But first, Jackie, can you tell us more about who Mark Carney is and how he came to win this election?
- [01:37]
Jackie Northam
Yeah. It's a remarkable story. Mark Carney, 60 years old, comes from the world of finance. You know, he's a complete political newcomer. He was on Wall Street. He was the head of the bank of England during all the turmoil following Brexit. He was also the governor of the bank of Canada during the 2008 economic crisis. So he really has never held political office before now. And the thing is, he probably wouldn' in office except that President Trump entered into Canada's political arena. For all intents and purposes, the Liberal Party, which Mark Carney is the head of, it was doing terrible in the polls. It was down for more than a year. And the other party, the Conservatives, were doing very well. Their leader was considered sort of a Trump light. They call him the Maple Maga. Pierre Poliev. He was riding high in the polls until President Trump came back into office and all of a sudden, President Trump starts throwing tariffs on Canada, 25% tariffs on his closest neighbor and ally, and then started talking about turning Canada into the 51st state. And I cannot stress enough how annoying that was to Canadians. You know, the reaction was almost visceral. More than anything else, the elections in Canada were seen as who was the best person to tackle President Donald Trump. That was the number one thing. There were economic issues, there was housing, there was immigration, everything else like that. But it all boiled down to Trump. And that's who Mark Carney is seen as, as the guy who can take on Trump.
- [03:11]
Susan Davis
Aswa. It is a testament to the role that the US Plays in the world that any American president, but in this case Donald Trump, can be such an influencing factor in another country's elections. I'd also note that Trump played a similar but not exact same role in Australia's recent elections, also boosting the center left party to victory over the conserv.
- [03:30]
Asma Khalid
I think a lot of other countries are trying to figure out how to navigate not just a world leader who is different than Joe Biden. Right. But a world leader who is so fundamentally different in the United States. I think a lot of other nations realize that Donald Trump is a complete 180 from conventional bipartisan foreign policy, and they need to figure out how to navigate and deal with him, particularly as it relates to economic policy and Trump's central economic tool, which is tariffs.
- [04:00]
Susan Davis
Okay, so with all this in mind, we come to yesterday's White House meeting. And I think one of the most notable moments was when Carney addressed the President's continued interest in making Canada the 51st state.
- [04:12]
Donald Trump
As you know from real estate, there are some places that are never for sale.
- [04:16]
Jackie Northam
That's true.
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Donald Trump
We're sitting in one right now. You know, Buckingham palace, you visited as well.
- [04:21]
Malcolm Gladwell
That's true.
- [04:22]
Donald Trump
And having met with the owners of Canada over the course of the campaign last several months, it's not for sale, won't be for sale ever.
- [04:31]
Susan Davis
Congressman, what did you make of that moment?
- [04:32]
Asma Khalid
I thought it was extremely deftly handled. And the reason I say this is a number of reporters in different ways brought up this question of Trump wanting to make Canada the 51st state. And every time it was brought up, Trump sort of said, yes, you know, I think this would be good for Canada. Here's why I want to do it. And every time it was brought up, the Canadian Prime Minister had to kind of shoot it down. Both, I think, because he needed to show that he does not endorse this idea. But he's also speaking to a domestic Canadian population at home. And he, to me, spoke in terms that Trump understood. He said, you know, you're a real estate man. You understand that some things are not up for sale. And you heard Trump, he sort of acknowledged. He chuckled at one point. You know, I think that after the very famous Oval Office meeting between Ukraine's leader, Volodymyr Zelensky, and Donald Trump that went so south, a number of other foreign leaders have had to try to figure out how to navigate Trump in a way that they can stand up for their own nation, but also publicly not end up in a shouting match with the president.
- [05:37]
Susan Davis
Jackie, I'm curious what your read was on that meeting and how you saw Carney's approach to Trump, especially from sort of the Canadian viewpoint of how this was expected to go.
- [05:45]
Jackie Northam
Yeah, I think Asma's right. You know, I mean, he had to play to two audiences, the Canadians who, you know, they freshly voted him in, and certainly President Trump as well. I cannot imagine how this meeting would have gone if it would have been the former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and President Trump sitting in that office together. We would have been looking at a whole different story. Carney, you know, he's very measured, he's authoritative. He used flattery, a little bit of humor in that, but you never got the sense that he was going to be rolled over by the president at all. He was very firm in what he said. He was succinct, and it made its mark. And it was remarkable, if you actually saw the video of that, not just listen to it, when Carney was saying all these things about your real estate man, everything else. And you could watch the president's face, and he's just lapping it up, essentially. Yeah, I am pretty good at this sort of stuff. Yeah, I've been to Buckingham palace and that. And I think Carney just hit the right tone, but at the same time, he hit the bullseye as well. And that is it is not for sale. Simple as that.
- [06:54]
Asma Khalid
Jackie, you mentioned the former Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau. Trump has been needling him, calling him Governor Trudeau. He doesn't use that same language when he talks about this new Canadian prime minister. He has said multiple times that he is a, quote, very nice man. And so, you know, I think Carney has been able thus far, we'll see how it plays out over the long run. But thus far, he has been able to understand how to deal with Donald Trump. And the other, you know, point I mentioned here is, I think Keir Starmer of the UK has also figured that there are certain world leaders who fundamentally, philosophically have wildly different opinions than President Trump. But I think they have understood to some degree how to navigate the man, the President Trump.
- [07:40]
Susan Davis
All right, let's take a quick break and we'll talk more about this when we get back.
- [07:43]
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- [08:14]
Peter Sagal
On the indicator from Planet Money podcast. We're here to help you make sense of the economic news from Trump's tariffs.
- [08:22]
Sponsor
It's called in game theory a trigger strategy, or sometimes called grim trigger, which.
- [08:26]
Donald Trump
Sort of has a cowboy esque ring.
- [08:29]
Peter Sagal
To it to what exactly a sovereign wealth fund is. For insight every weekday, listen to NPR's the Indicator from Planet Money.
- [08:40]
Malcolm Gladwell
On the next through line from npr.
- [08:43]
Peter Sagal
For the presidency, I'm indebted to Almighty God. I'm in charge of the country and I need to serve all the American people and not just the political machine.
- [08:53]
Malcolm Gladwell
The origins of the modern civil service. Listen to throughline wherever you get your podcasts.
- [09:03]
Susan Davis
And we're back. And Jackie, Trump's personal attacks on Canada were clearly a defining issue in their election. But there's also really serious economic politics and policies at play here. Can you talk about the latest on the tariffs and what the impacts have been in Canada?
- [09:19]
Jackie Northam
Well, there's still tariffs on Canada. They have changed a lot, though. President Trump has done some exemptions and carve outs for certain things. At the beginning there were 25% tariffs, which was really devastating to Canadians, and they responded in kind. Some of those are still in place, but not a lot of them. President Trump turned around and said anything that is part of the usmca, which is this free trade agreement that replaced nafta. All of those are exempt right now. It doesn't mean they're gone away exactly, because the president is still holding it out there that they could be reimposed at any time. There are still tariffs on aluminum and steel, which is really hurting Canadian steel and aluminum makers. There's also tariffs on potash and on energy. Potash is used for fertilizer, widely used here in the United States. So it's harming the farmers Here as well. So those are still on there. Again, some of them have been exempted right now. But the thing is, they're always just hanging over the heads of businessmen and farmers and that type of thing. And it's hard. You can't plan ahead for your business if you have these in the background all the time.
- [10:29]
Susan Davis
Asma, to Jackie's point, the usmca, it's still in effect, and it seems like the deal, while it may seemed undermined, still fundamentally holds that the US And Canada do have a trade agreement. And it still largely holds a trade.
- [10:42]
Asma Khalid
Deal that we should remind folks, was actually put in place, crafted, signed by Donald Trump himself during his first term. So this is something that, when he put it in place, really, he championed it as ending his words, the NAFTA nightmare and putting in place a much better deal. In fact, even touted this deal as recently as on the campaign trail, just this last fall. And so, yes, it holds in theory at this moment in time. But I will also say that the deal itself is pretty clear, the existing deal, usmca, that there's not supposed to be any new widespread tariffs. It does allow exceptions for national security. And so in theory, that is President Trump's justification for these new tariffs. But, you know, I've done some reporting on this. The question I've heard from both Mexicans and Canadians is, well, what's the point of having this deal then if you're just gonna use national security to put a whole bunch of other new tariff in place? The deal is supposed to come under review next year, and if they can't reach the terms of a deal, it could just be extended. Extended. So it's not like it's gonna expire on day one. But I think there's a lot of questions about what's the point of this deal if you're just gonna put tariffs on top of it.
- [11:53]
Susan Davis
Jackie, how much of Carney's political fate do you think relies on improving, or at least the perception of improving U.S. canada relations? Do you see this? As we've used the word mandate in our election, Donald Trump has claimed to have a mandate to. Do you think that is his mandate from Canada?
- [12:09]
Jackie Northam
Oh, certainly, absolutely. Again, he was a guy who was voted in because he was seen as being able to handle Trump, to tangle with Trump if he has to. So it's huge. But at the same time, I think there's two things going on. One is that kind of the expectations are a little bit low on this, because in Canada, which I go to often, Trump is seen as just so erratic, so wily that nobody really knows how to tangle with him. The other thing is that Canadians are just so angry. And I don't know if there's anything that's gonna be able to patch it back together again. Yes, they wanna make sure that the economy is okay and everything like that, but when all this is said and done, you know, four years from now, whatever like that, as Carney himself said, the relationship will not be the same as it has been for decades. It's over.
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Susan Davis
Asma, it also made me think about when you referenced the Zelenskyy meeting that went sideways really quick. But then at the same, these are weeks later, Trump huddled with Zelensky in Rome. Right. They have that famous picture of the two of them meeting while they were attending the Pope's funeral. And after that, both leaders gave a very positive readout of that exchange. And it seemed to sort of turn the page on the disastrous Oval Office meeting. Maybe it's just a reminder that, like, nothing's permanent with Trump. Right. Like, you can have as world leaders, you can have a horrible day and then a good day. And maybe the Zelensky model is sort of the lesson of how people will engage with the president.
- [13:34]
Asma Khalid
I think there's a lot of questions about how other world leaders are navigating and trying to figure out how to navigate President Trump. What I will also say, though, is he sees tariffs and has long seen tariffs as the primary economic tool for what he believes are unfair trade practices. He believes that the US Is getting ripped off, and friend or foe, he believes ought to pay tariffs. You know, the example I give is he thinks India has long. He calls them the biggest abuser of tariffs. And yet he's very cozy with Prime Minister Modi. Right. When he comes to the United States. And so I don't think it matters whether or not he sort of likes an individual leader. He fundamentally believes in tariffs, and it's not clear to me always if he believes in them as a negotiation tool or if he believes in them to sort of equalize trade deficits. And he is not shy about essentially accusing Canada of being a freeloader. He says the US has been subsidizing Canada for too long. And so I imagine that we will continue to hear a lot more about some of these trade tensions.
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Susan Davis
All right, that is it for us today. Jackie, thank you for joining us. And thank you for introducing me to the term Maple maga.
- [14:44]
Jackie Northam
You're most welcome. Thanks.
- [14:46]
Susan Davis
And I'm Susan Davis.
- [14:47]
Asma Khalid
I cover politics and I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House.
- [14:50]
Susan Davis
And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.
- [15:02]
Malcolm Gladwell
When Malcolm Gladwell presented NPR's Throughline podcast with a Peabody Award, he praised it for its historical and moral clarity. On Throughline, we take you back in time to the origins of what's in the news, like presidential power, aging, and evangelicalism. Time travel with us every week on the Throughline Podcast from npr.
- [15:25]
Pop Culture Happy Hour Host
Know that fizzy feeling you get when you read something really good? Watch the movie everyone's been talking about, or catch the show that the Internet can't get over. At the Pop Culture Happy Hour Podcast, we chase that feeling four times a week. We'll serve you recommendations and commentary on the buzziest movies, tv, music, and more, from low brow to highbrow to the stuff in between. Catch the Pop Culture Happy Hour Podcast from NPR.