Hunter Biden Pardoned

Summary

Summary of "Hunter Biden Pardoned" Episode of The NPR Politics Podcast

Release Date: December 2, 2024
Host/Author: NPR
Duration: Approximately 15 minutes

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Introduction

In the December 2, 2024 episode of The NPR Politics Podcast, hosts Ashley Lopez, Ryan Lucas, and Mara Liasson delve into the significant political event of President Joe Biden issuing a pardon to his son, Hunter Biden. The conversation explores the constitutional implications, the specifics of the pardon, historical precedents, and the broader impact on the Justice Department and political norms in the United States.

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Understanding Presidential Pardons

Ashley Lopez opens the discussion by seeking clarity on the nature of presidential pardons and the extent of the president's authority in this domain.

Ryan Lucas provides a comprehensive explanation:

"So the presidential pardon power is rooted in the Constitution. It's a core presidential power. It only applies to federal crimes, not crimes at the state level..." (02:00)

He further distinguishes between pardons and commutations, emphasizing that pardons offer full and unconditional forgiveness, removing associated penalties like voting prohibitions. Specifically, President Biden's pardon of Hunter Biden covers offenses committed between January 1, 2014, and the day before the pardon.

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Details of Hunter Biden's Offenses

The hosts examine the specific legal issues addressed by the pardon.

Ryan Lucas outlines the cases:

"One of them is a gun case in Delaware in which a jury convicted Hunter of lying on a federal background check form about his addiction to crack cocaine when he bought a gun in 2018..." (02:54)

He continues to describe a second case involving tax evasion:

"Hunter pleaded guilty to three felony and six misdemeanor counts... failing to pay $1.4 million in taxes." (03:38)

The pardon effectively erases these federal offenses from Hunter Biden's record.

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Potential Consequences Without the Pardon

The discussion shifts to the ramifications Hunter Biden might have faced absent the pardon.

Ryan Lucas explains:

"In the gun case, the max sentence was 25 years. But he was not going to face 25 years in prison..." (03:42)

Similarly, for the tax case, the maximum sentence could have been 17 years, though outcomes like probation were possible. The pardon precludes any sentencing or further legal consequences from these specific federal charges.

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Unusual Aspects of the Pardon

Mara Liasson probes the atypical nature of this presidential pardon, questioning its potential motivations and implications.

"It's trying to protect his son against future actions by the Justice Department." (04:44)

Ryan Lucas adds that the pardon might be a strategic move by President Biden to shield Hunter Biden from possible future scrutiny under different administrations:

"There's no reason to believe it will stop here. And that may be a nod to concerns that Hunter could face some sort of legal action from a future Trump justice." (05:21)

This raises concerns about the pardon serving as a preemptive shield against politically motivated prosecutions.

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Historical Context and Comparison to Other Presidencies

The hosts draw parallels between President Biden's actions and those of former President Donald Trump, who also exercised the pardon power extensively.

Ryan Lucas enumerates Trump's pardons:

"Roger Stone, Paul Manafort, Michael Flynn... Charles Kushner..." (09:04)

Mara Liasson contextualizes this behavior historically:

"Bill Clinton pardoned his half brother, Roger Clinton..." (10:10)

She notes that while presidential pardons are not uncommon, the frequency and nature of Trump’s pardons, often favoring close associates and political allies, is distinctive.

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Implications for the Justice Department and Political Norms

The conversation addresses the broader implications of such pardons on the perception of the Justice Department's impartiality and the adherence to democratic norms.

Mara Liasson remarks on the balance between upholding the rule of law and preventing the misuse of prosecutorial power for political ends:

"We have two competing equities in our system. One is no one is above the law..." (06:16)

Ryan Lucas highlights ongoing cases involving high-level Democrats, suggesting that the politicization of the Justice Department is not limited to one party:

"There are three other cases of high level Democrats who have been indicted..." (11:14)

Ashley Lopez questions the voters' concern over these issues, to which Mara Liasson responds:

"America just elected a felon as president. And I think you're absolutely right. Why do people care about Democratic norms or even in some cases, breaking the law?" (11:59)

This segment underscores a perceived erosion of trust in impartial justice, exacerbated by political maneuvering.

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Impact on President Biden's Legacy

The hosts consider the long-term effects of the pardon on President Biden's reputation and democratic principles.

Ashley Lopez asks:

"Is there a risk that Biden is damaging his legacy on his way out by going back on his, quote, word as a Biden that he wouldn't pardon Hunter?" (14:07)

Mara Liasson responds by discussing internal Democratic concerns and the potential perception of hypocrisy:

"He insisted over and over... he believed in the justice system. He wouldn't pardon Hunter. And he said that even after Trump had won." (14:17)

The paradox between Biden's earlier stance and the eventual pardon may lead to friction within his party and affect historical judgments of his administration.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes by highlighting the complex interplay between presidential powers, legal processes, and political strategies. The pardon of Hunter Biden by President Joe Biden not only affects individual legal outcomes but also serves as a touchstone for ongoing debates about the integrity of the Justice Department and the preservation of democratic norms in the face of partisan pressures.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ryan Lucas on the nature of presidential pardons:
  “This is a full and unconditional pardon, and it applies to any offenses he committed or may have committed between January 1, 2014, and yesterday.” (02:00)

• Ryan Lucas on potential future consequences without the pardon:
  “He had not been sentenced yet... the max sentence in the gun case was 25 years.” (03:42)

• Mara Liasson on the balance of equities in the justice system:
  “One is no one is above the law. The second is we don't want presidents to use the Department of Justice to persecute or prosecute their political opponents.” (06:16)

• Mara Liasson on Democratic norms and Trump's impact:
  “This stuff is complicated.” (13:20)

• Mara Liasson on Biden's legacy and internal party concerns:
  “He insisted over and over... he believed in the justice system. He wouldn't pardon Hunter.” (14:17)

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This episode provides a thorough examination of the implications surrounding President Biden’s pardon of Hunter Biden, offering listeners an in-depth understanding of its legal, political, and ethical dimensions.

Transcript

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Hi, this is Katherine from Arlington, Virginia. After over 200 hours of study, many late nights, and countless milligrams of caffeine, I'm about to take my environmental PE exam as the last step in the years long process of getting licensed as a professional engineer.

[Ashley Lopez]

This podcast was recorded at 1:08pm Eastern Time on Monday, December 2, 2024.

[Katherine]

Things may have changed by the time you listen, but hopefully I will have passed and will never have to take another eight hour exam again. Enjoy the show.

[Ashley Lopez]

Congratulations.

[Mara Liasson]

Eight hours is a long exam.

[Ashley Lopez]

Yeah, what a nice coda to the year. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover voting.

[Ryan Lucas]

I'm Ryan Lucas. I cover the Justice Department.

[Mara Liasson]

And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.

[Ashley Lopez]

And today on the show, outgoing President Joe Biden has issued a pardon to his son, Hunter Biden. Ryan, before we get into what happens next and what this all means, I wonder if you can just walk us through. First of all, what is a pardon and why is it that presidents have the ability to do this?

[Ryan Lucas]

So the presidential pardon power is rooted in the Constitution. It's a core presidential power. It only applies to federal crimes, not crimes at the at the state level. And there are several forms of presidential clemency, but two are the most common. One of them is commutation. That's when a president reduces a sentence partially, could also wipe it out totally, but doesn't erase the criminal conviction from the books. The other is the one that we're talking about here, and that's a pardon. It's basically presidential forgiveness. They can be full and unconditional. It also removes things that can accompany a federal criminal conviction. For example, barring the right to vote, prohibiting that in the case that we're talking about here. And President Biden's pardon for his son, Hunter. This is a full and unconditional pardon, and it applies to any offenses he committed or may have committed between January 1, 2014, and yesterday.

[Ashley Lopez]

Yeah. And what specific offenses are we talking about here in Hunter's case?

[Ryan Lucas]

Well, there are two things, two cases in particular that are mentioned in the, in the White House statement. One of them is a gun case in Delaware in which a jury convicted Hunter of lying on a federal background check form about his addiction to crack cocaine when he bought a gun in 2018. There were three counts in that case, two false statements, statements, counts about his drug use, and one count of illegal possession of a firearm by a drug user. And then the second case is for failing to pay $1.4 million in taxes. Hunter pleaded guilty to three felony and six misdemeanor counts in that case in California. So those two specifically are wiped off the books.

[Ashley Lopez]

Yeah. What kind of punishment could he have been facing if he wasn't pardoned?

[Ryan Lucas]

So in both of those cases, he had not been sentenced yet. Sentencing actually was scheduled for later this month. But the max sentence in the gun case was 25 years. But it is really important to make clear here that he was not going to face 25 years in prison. There are a whole bunch of things that, that factor into a judge's decision on what the sentence ultimately will be. A lot of experts thought he could face maybe a little bit of prison time, although probation was definitely a possibility. In the tax case, the max possible sentence would have been 17 years. But again, the same thing factors in. And there was the possibility, again, that he might ultimately have faced no prison time there either.

[Mara Liasson]

Well, Ryan, what is unusual about this pardon? I mean, you said it's a constitutional prerogative of the president, but the fact that this is kind of retroactive and proactive. In other words, it's trying to. It sounds like Joe Biden is trying to protect his son against future actions by the Justice Department.

[Ryan Lucas]

Well, that's certainly one way that you could read into this. And there's been, obviously, a lot of talk about what the future Trump, Justice Department and FBI might do. Trump talked, and you know this better than anyone, Trump talked a lot on the campaign about vengeance and perhaps going after what he calls the Biden crime family. And there's actually one line in the statement that the president issued accompanying this pardon where he says, in trying to break Hunter, they've tried to break me, and there's no reason to believe it will stop here. And that may be a nod to concerns that Hunter could face some sort of legal action from a future Trump justice. Right.

[Mara Liasson]

And even if it doesn't end up in conviction or prison time, you can bankrupt somebody, you can ruin their lives. I mean, the law and prosecution is tremendous power and that's why it needs to be wielded judiciously.

[Ryan Lucas]

I was talking to a former federal prosecutor about this last night. And one thing that, that he mentioned is there could also be a concern not necessarily about future prosecution, but about would you want to entrust Hunter to the Bureau of Prisons, Federal Bureau of Prisons in a future Trump Justice Department and any future decisions that they might make if he's already into the system? And that could have been a concern that was factoring into this decision as.

[Ashley Lopez]

Well, which I guess is why President Biden made a note in his pardon statement that Hunter was being singled out because he was the president's son. I mean, Mara, how does that pardon like sort of impact the characterization of all this?

[Mara Liasson]

Well, the problem is that we have two competing equities in our system. One is no one is above the law. The second is we don't want presidents to use the Department of Justice to persecute or prosecute their political opponents, their political enemies. And we have to find the right balance between those things. You know, Joe Biden is now saying he believes his his son was investigated and by the Trump administration for political reasons. Donald Trump believes that the January 6th investigation that alleged that he encouraged a mob to go to the Capitol to overturn a free and fair election was persecution, not prosecution. It was unfair. He believes the same thing for the classified documents case where he refused to turn over classified documents after he left office the first time. So, you know, I believe that the era of Donald Trump can be defined by a huge stress test on democratic institutions. And this is just another example.

[Ashley Lopez]

Okay. Well, we'll talk more about that in a bit. Let's take a quick break. More in a moment.

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[Ashley Lopez]

And we're back. Ryan, many presidents exercise their pardon power, right? Particularly on their way out of office. I mean, Trump pardoned a bunch of folks in the last days of his first term too, right? Remind us of who some of these people were and what they had been charged with doing.

[Ryan Lucas]

It's a long list. We can start with Republican political operative Roger Stone, a longtime Trump ally. He was convicted of lying to Congress, witnessed tampering, obstruction revolving around the Russia investigation. He was pardoned. Trump's former campaign manager for 2016, Paul Manafort. He was convicted of bank and tax fraud. There's his first national security advisor, Michael Flynn. He pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI. George Papadopoulos, he was a low level aide, also wrapped up in the Russia investigation. He lied to the FBI. There are also a number of politicians, Chris Collins, Duncan Hunter. But one that stands out in particular now in light of this Biden pardon for his son is Trump's decision to pardon Charles Kushner, Ivanka, Trump's father in law. He was sentenced to two years in prison for tax evasion and other crimes. He received a pardon from Trump. And most recently, just this past weekend, Trump announced that he would be his pick for ambassador to France in his incoming administration.

[Ashley Lopez]

Mara, what should we make of the fact that now two outgoing presidents have pardoned not just people close to them? You know, in some cases this is family and for political reasons now.

[Mara Liasson]

Well, and it just isn't just Trump and Biden. Bill Clinton pardoned his half brother, Roger Clinton. And I think up until now people would have said, you know, this is a family matter. And especially in Joe Biden's case, Hunter has suffered a lot. He's Biden's only surviving son. But as Ryan just explained, Donald Trump has used the pardon power very widely and maybe perhaps pardoned more of his close associates and allies than any other president. And he'll continue to do that because I think he has a certain view of the Justice Department. He's been very explicit about it, that a president should be able to direct the Justice Department to go after his political enemies and opponents and protect his allies and associates. That's how he sees the world.

[Ryan Lucas]

The idea of the Justice Department being weaponized and certainly a line that we've heard a lot from Trump and we've heard from his Republican allies. I think that it's important to point out that, yes, the case against Hunter, the investigation started under the Trump administration, but it continued and was fulfilled. Went to trial under the Biden administration.

[Mara Liasson]

Because Biden wanted to show that he believed in the justice system and he was going to let the chips fall where they may, and he believed that the justice system was fair. That was his previous position. Now, it turns out in this statement, which many people are going to say is a. Is an example of hypocrisy, that he didn't believe that, that he always felt that Hunter was being investigated just because he was his son.

[Ashley Lopez]

Is that the case, or has the world changed a little bit since he said that? I mean, the voters did elect a felon to be the president elect. Things are different.

[Mara Liasson]

Yes, America just elected a felon as president. And I think you're absolutely right. Why do people care about Democratic norms or even in some cases, breaking the law?

[Ryan Lucas]

I just want to come back to the question of politicization of the Justice Department, because, yes, there's Hunter Biden is one case, but there are three other cases of high level Democrats who have been indicted and in one instance, even gone to trial and been convicted. That would be powerful Democratic Senator from New Jersey, Bob Menendez. You also have Democratic Congressman Henry Cuellar, and most recently, the Democratic mayor of New York, Eric Adams was indicted.

[Mara Liasson]

Yes. And the thing that's so important about this is that that's because Democratic administrations tend to believe that justice is impartial and they are willing to countenance the investigation of Democratic politicians, that according to Donald Trump's view of the world, those people are suckers. You know, I think we're in the midst of a big sea change where he has said explicitly the Department of Justice should be basically run by the president and execute the president's wishes and go after his political enemies.

[Ashley Lopez]

Yeah, I guess. I wonder how useful an argument from Democrats about the rule of law is considering all this. Like, is this something that voters even care about? I mean, you could look at the.

[Mara Liasson]

Results of this, they didn't seem to.

[Ashley Lopez]

They didn't seem to.

[Mara Liasson]

Right.

[Ryan Lucas]

I think the only thing that I would would question is whether a president exercising the pardon power undermines the justice system when it is a central part of the Constitution.

[Mara Liasson]

No, I don't think it undermines the justice system. I think the only thing that helps Donald Trump transform the justice system is the fact that Biden changed his mind. He first, for many, many years was a staunch defender of the justice system and its impartiality. Now he's saying it was all political. Well, guess who that sounds like Donald Trump. That's the problem here. I mean, I do think that Donald Trump, who is an incredible disruptor, he challenged the justice system to decide, do you believe no one is above the law or do you want to have all of the complications that come with looking like one president is using the justice system to investigate his predecessor? I mean, this stuff is complicated.

[Ashley Lopez]

Mara, is there a risk that Biden is damaging his legacy on his way out by going back on his, quote, word as a Biden that he wouldn't pardon Hunter?

[Mara Liasson]

I don't know how much that will figure in his legacy when all is said and done, but I can tell you that it's causing tremendous angst among Democrats right now. Not so much that he pardoned Hunter. He has every right to do that. And many presidents before him have done similar things. It's that he insisted over and over and over again that he believed in the justice system. He wouldn't pardon Hunter. He wouldn't commute his sentence. And he said that even after Trump had won.

[Ashley Lopez]

All right. Let's leave it there for today. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover voting.

[Ryan Lucas]

I'm Ryan Lucas. I cover the Justice Department.

[Mara Liasson]

And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.

[Ashley Lopez]

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.

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