Sergio Martinez Beltran (1:45)

Yeah. Yeah. So Gilman Abrego Garcia was born in El Salvador and came to the US illegally when he was 16 years old. He says he was escaping gang death threats and since then he's lived in Maryland. He got married to a US Citizen and is raising three children. He was also working as a sheet metal worker. But in March, he was pulled over and eventually arrested and detained by immigration authorities. And three days later, just like that, he was deported to El Salvador and detained at a notorious maximum security prison there called secot. It's meant to hold terrorists and alleged gang members. The thing is, stipa, that he was not supposed to be deported there because of a 2019 immigration court order that found there was a well founded fear of gang persecution if he returned to his home country. Now, the Trump administration conceded it had made an administrative error, but refused to bring him back. Eventually, after months of back and forth between the Trump administration and the courts, Abrego Garcia was returned to the US to face a new, unrelated case on criminal charges. Now, Abrego Garcia was indicted on two counts related to human trafficking, these federal charges that stem from a traffic stop in Tennessee in 2022. His attorneys have said those charges are retaliatory.

Deepa Shivaram (3:04)

I see. Okay. And so that has all happened. And this week with this check in in Baltimore, you know, what were the latest developments? What happened?

Sergio Martinez Beltran (3:12)

Yeah, I mean, you mentioned the check in, and, you know, that is the reason why we're talking about this. Right. Because this week, Abreu Garcia had a mandatory check in with ICE in Baltimore, and he showed up. He was taken into immigration custody again. Again, he was in the country without legal status. So there was always a possibility he could be deported. And the Trump administration has vowed to do just that. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem has said he will be sent to Uganda. Now, this is a country he has no connection to, but the administration has settled for that country, it seems like it. And there is this question, Deepa, of why Uganda if he has no connection to it? Right. And what we know is that according to Abrego Garcia's lawyers and court documents, the Trump administration had offered Abrego Garcia a plead guilty to all the human smuggling charges and served the imposed sentence, and you'll be deported to Costa Rica. There he was going to be given illegal status, but Abrego Garcia refused the plea deal. So the Trump administration has decided to.

Domenico Montanaro (4:17)

Send him to Uganda, which is really quite something. I mean, sending someone to Uganda when they're from El Salvador originally and had been sent to the Salvadoran prison. And now they're sort of threatening this idea that you'll be sent to a country in Africa across the globe, or you could go to somewhere that's relatively close if you only plead guilty. It's certainly, you know, par for the course with the Trump administration trying to show, you know, this sort of tough guy approach on immigration. Find something to wave the victory flag, say they were right, say, see, he pleaded guilty, and then use that as deterrence and fear for others who might come to the United States.

Deepa Shivaram (5:02)

Well, Sergio, I wanna clarify one point here. You know, there's this question for him about whether or not he'll plead guilty. And he doesn't want to. But what are these charges that, you know, he's saying he doesn't wanna plead guilty to?

Sergio Martinez Beltran (5:15)

Yeah. So what we're talking Deepa is about two federal charges that stem from a traffic stop in Tennessee in 2022. Based on body cam footage, we could see that the law enforcement agents who stopped Abreu Garcia saw that there were about nine people in the car, and they said they were all going to Maryland from Tennessee. Now, there were some skepticism there from the law enforcement agents, but they decided to let him go. But the Trump administration decided to revive that traffic stop from 2022 and bring charges against Abrego Garcia. Now, it's important to note that his attorneys have said those charges are retaliatory and vindictive.

Deepa Shivaram (5:54)

Interesting. Okay. And for both of you, I mean, as you're tracking this story and what's happening to Abrego Garcia, what is next? What are the next steps here?

Sergio Martinez Beltran (6:03)

Well, I mean, for now, he can't be deported. Abrego Garcia challenged his deportation to Uganda and detention. And a federal judge in Maryland has decided to extend, for now, the paus his removal until he gets a chance to contest it. And we know we are expecting to see some movement on the new case this week.

Domenico Montanaro (6:22)

And the sort of revival of this whole controversy just shows once again how much Trump would rather be talking about immigration than anything else. Immigration, crime deals, those are sort of the big things he wants to talk about. Compared to the economy, which, of course, the tariffs that he's put in place have been leading to an increase in some prices in some sectors. It's less fertile ground for him to feel like he has something politically that he can, you know, be able to talk about in a strong way. But he's never been somebody who thought that the economy was really the main issue. He's said repeatedly since he became president that he always felt it was immigration.

Deepa Shivaram (7:01)

All right, we're going to take a quick break, and we'll be back in a moment.

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Deepa Shivaram (8:25)

And we're back. So, Sergio, I want to ask, what can Abrego Garcia's case tell us about how the Trump administration is approaching these immigration cases?

Sergio Martinez Beltran (8:36)

Yeah. You know, the reason why this case is so important and why we're talking about it so much is because at the core of it are questions about due process. Again, he was arrested and detained despite not being convicted of any crimes. He was sent to El Salvador despite a standing court order prohibiting exactly that. And then the Trump administration revived that 2022 traffic stop to bring federal charges against him. So there are questions about due process and whether the Trump administration has decided to ignore it. And we know the administration is willing to push the envelope on these issues of immigration. I know we've said the word revival over and over and over, but we are see that more and more. We're seeing that people are being arrested for minor infractions and that's enough for them to be detained and potentially deported. We also know that the Trump administration has sent migrants to countries they have no connection to. Like, you know, it has sent folks to Guantanamo in Cuba and the secot in El Salvador. We have also seen the Trump administration's proclivity to slow walk court processes or even sidestep some orders. And yesterday, Deepa, the judge seeing Abrego Garcia's deportation case in Maryland kept asking the Department of Justice lawyer whether he understood that Abreu Garcia could not be deported. She wanted to make sure it was clear and on the record he could not be deported. And that's again, because of the Trump administration's track record.

Deepa Shivaram (10:01)

So has there been any pushback to that?

Sergio Martinez Beltran (10:03)

Yeah. I mean, at times there have been conservative judges who have admonished Trump for pushing the envelope on immigration issues. But again, the administration is willing to do whatever to fulfill this promise of deporting hundreds of thousands of people from the country.

Deepa Shivaram (10:21)

Yeah, but I also wonder, I mean, is Abreco Garcia's case, you know, a one of one or is this Something that's been happening with other people as well.

Sergio Martinez Beltran (10:31)

I mean, I mean, yeah, I think there are a lot of concerns from immigration attorneys and immigration activists about the due process of these folks. Again, from either those sent to Guantanamo to SECO to those arrested in the streets of Washington, D.C. by ICE or other immigration agencies, you know, there have been concerns about due process. So it's not unique at this point.

Domenico Montanaro (10:51)

And beyond due process, it's the kinds of people that the administration said that it would be going after versus who they are going after. You know, they continue to say that they're going after the, quote, worst of the worst. But we've seen cases that are far less murky than Abrego Garcia's, where you have people with no criminal records at all, no allegations of anything untoward, just people who were, you know, riding their moped, making a delivery and getting wrapped up by ice. And beyond that, people of all walks of life, landscapers, farm workers, all of that. And we've heard the Trump administration, we heard Trump himself say that there were gonna be some exceptions, some carve outs, but it seemed to be not much more than public relations, because to this point, there still hasn't been any of that. Trump really wants to keep that kind of narrative, that kind of storyline that non criminals are getting wrapped up out of the news headlines, and as long as they're out of the news headline, seems to be willing to let ICE do whatever it wants.

Deepa Shivaram (11:49)

Well, I will also note that you're talking about the public relations element of this. All of this happening, everything with Abrego Garcia, other arrests that have happened that are a little bit more high profile are things that the White House has been celebrating and posting on social media, making memes out of it. This is something that is really critical almost to the administration's immigration agenda. Is that right, Domenico?

Domenico Montanaro (12:12)

Absolutely. That's exactly what they want to be able to do. We've heard Stephen Miller, adviser to the President Trump, who's really been sort of a mastermind of the immigration policies from everything that we've seen, you know, really sort of tout this. He wants to be able to kind of, you know, take it back to Democrats and say, oh, you're defending a gang member. Even if there's little to no credible evidence that that's true, they're looking to muddy the waters, make it seem like these are the worst of the worst, quote, unquote. And the people who are wrapped up in these detentions, who have no criminal records are not the ones they want to talk about. Instead, they want to be able to use these examples that are murky, muddy, to be able to use that as something that occupies the space in the public relations, TV optics realm that really Trump is obsessed with.

Deepa Shivaram (13:01)

I want to ask both of you, too, as we kind of wrap this up here. Domenico, like from polling, I'm curious how the public feels about immigration enforcement, about Trump's immigration agenda. And Sergio, if you want to jump in on anything you've seen from the public on the ground, I'm curious what that looks like.

Domenico Montanaro (13:16)

Well, there was always the risk from Trump for going too far on immigration. You know, it happened in the first term as well when you saw those child separation policies and that instinct to be sort of hard line, hard nosed, tough guy image of all of this and how this is playing out. It does appear to have gone too far for a lot of Americans. Polling has certainly showed that, not with Republicans or the Republican base per se, but certainly with independents and overwhelming numbers of Democrats as well. So I think that it's something that the Republican Party has to be careful on, especially in this new political landscape where, you know, it's been really volatile politically in 2024. You know, Trump had a fairly diverse coalition that included Latinos. And there are a lot of Latino Republican members of Congress who have spoken out against some of these harsher deportation policies and saying that they just don't think that this is the right approach.

Sergio Martinez Beltran (14:14)

And I think these tactics and policies from the Trump administration, I mean, they are having an impact on the ground. When we're talking about immigrant communities, we are starting to see more and more people making the decision of voluntarily leaving the country because they are too scared of exactly what's happening here, of being sent to a third country or to being sent somewhere else like the SECOT or Guantanamo. They're really scared of being ripped away from their families to a place that they have no connection to, to. We're also seeing more and more people making the decision of whether to leave their houses or ask people to buy groceries for them or even go to work. I mean, we have talked to a bunch of folks who do deliveries, and they are really worried about being in the road for so long and being stopped by the police. So these policies are definitely having an impact in immigrant communities across the country.

Deepa Shivaram (15:11)

All right, we're going to have to leave it there for 10 today. Thank you, Sergio, for your reporting and for bringing it to the pod.

Sergio Martinez Beltran (15:16)

You're welcome. So good to be with you all.

Deepa Shivaram (15:18)

I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover the White House.

Domenico Montanaro (15:20)

And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.

Deepa Shivaram (15:23)

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.

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