Mara Liasson (2:15)

My family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump, but we couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way. We will not live on our knees, and you shouldn't either. My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system and I'm innocent. So let's have a trial and keep the faith.

Danielle Kurtzleben (2:41)

So, Kerry, if all of this stems from something he said five years ago. Why is this happening now?

Carrie Johnson (2:47)

Simple answer. The statute of limitations was about to expire within just a few days. A five year statute of limitations. And the Justice Department was under the gun from the White House to get this done in fast. The reason we know that is because over the weekend, President Trump actually posted about it on social media, advising Attorney General Pam Bondi to hurry up and bring this case.

Danielle Kurtzleben (3:09)

All right, Mara, let me turn to you. Why is this specific indictment significant? It feels like a big deal.

Mara Liasson (3:15)

It is a big deal. And many people feel it's a tipping point, that it marks the end of the post Watergate reforms, which enshrined a whole bunch of norms, not laws, but norms to make sure that presidents could not interfere in the affairs of the Justice Department. In other words, the rule of law, which means there's a level playing field. Facts and evidence drive the decision to prosecute or not, not whether you are an enemy or a friend of the president. Now, there is the sense that that's over. And Donald Trump ran on this. He said he wanted the Department of Justice to be his personal revenge agency, and that's what he's doing. And today, he did talk to report outside the White House. And here's a little bit of what he had to say. It's about justice, really.

Carrie Johnson (4:01)

It's not revenge. It's about justice. It's also about the fact that you can't let this go on. They are sick, radical left people, and.

Mara Liasson (4:12)

They can't get away with it.

Carrie Johnson (4:13)

And Comey, Comey was one of the people. He wasn't the biggest, but he's a dirty cop.

Mara Liasson (4:19)

You know, he's been talking about sick, radical left people for years. That's not new. But a minute earlier, he did say something that was very revealing about his true motives for wanting this case to be broke.

Carrie Johnson (4:29)

For four years, they went after me. They went after me for four years. And that doesn't include the four great.

Mara Liasson (4:35)

Years that we had in the White House. And that's really what he's talking about. They went after me. I want to go after them. I want to get revenge.

Danielle Kurtzleben (4:43)

All right, so, Kerry, what do we know about the lawyers who are bringing this case?

Carrie Johnson (4:46)

This is also a very unusual situation. What happened here is that there was a longtime prosecutor in the Eastern District of Virginia, and he thought the evidence against Comey was weak. He did not want to proceed. And at the end of last week, the White House forced him out of his job. He actually was forced to leave that job. And instead, this guy was replaced by a woman named Lindsey Halligan. She is an insurance lawyer. She was part of Trump's circle around Mar A Lago in Florida, and most recently the president had put her in charge of scrubbing what Trump calls woke ideology from the Smithsonian museums. Lindsey Halligan has no experience as a prosecutor, none at all. And yet it was her name on this Comey indictment when it came down last night from the grand jury.

Danielle Kurtzleben (5:37)

Wait, so why would Trump pick someone so inexperienced?

Carrie Johnson (5:41)

This is a person who helped defend him in his Mar A Lago classified documents case, and she's a trusted member of his orbit. It may also be that people with less experience as federal prosecutors and less judgment in some of these cases may be more willing to do what the White House and Attorney General Pam Bondi want to see happen.

Mara Liasson (6:04)

And don't forget the way this, his whole acrimony with Comey started was when Comey said Trump asked him for loyalty. Remember, he said I want loyalty. And Comey said I can give you honesty. And he has a prosecutor now who's going to give him loyalty.

Carrie Johnson (6:22)

And it's worth noting that on the other side of this case is Jim Comey, who himself was the deputy attorney general, the second in command inside the Justice Department in the George W. Bush years, is a good lawyer and his attorney is his longtime friend and former prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, who was the U.S. attorney in Chicago and also prosecuted the leak of a CIA operative's name in the Bush here. So this has quite a lot of legal firepower on the other side.

Mara Liasson (6:49)

Although we should say that Trump doesn't really care if he wins this case.

Danielle Kurtzleben (6:53)

Wait, what?

Mara Liasson (6:53)

In other words, a conviction is not necessarily the goal. James Comey has lots of money, he has great lawyer, so he can defend himself. But this sends a message to other people. Don't cross me. I'll come after you. I'll bankrupt you. I'll ruin your career even if I can't send you to jail.

Danielle Kurtzleben (7:08)

All right, we are going to take a quick break. More in a moment. This message comes from NPR sponsor Adobe introducing the all new Adobe Acrobat studio. Now with AI powered PDF spaces need to turn 100 pages of market research into 5 insights with the click templates for a sales proposal that'll close that deal or an AI specialist to tailor the tone of your market report. You can do all that with the all new Adobe Acrobat Studio. Learn more@adobe.com do that with Acrobat this week on Consider this Covid vaccines Tylenol as The government makes massive changes in its approach to public health.

Carrie Johnson (7:51)

We hear from doctors trying to keep up.

Mara Liasson (7:53)

If you hear something and you have a question about it, that's the time.

Danielle Kurtzleben (7:57)

To have a conversation with the person who knows your health best. This week on Consider this on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Throughline podcast from npr, immigration enforcement might be more visible now, but.

Carrie Johnson (8:13)

This, this moment didn't begin with President.

Mara Liasson (8:15)

Trump's second inauguration or even his first.

Carrie Johnson (8:19)

A series from Throughline about how immigration.

Danielle Kurtzleben (8:22)

Became political and a cash cow.

Mara Liasson (8:25)

Listen to Throughline in the NPR app.

Carrie Johnson (8:28)

Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Danielle Kurtzleben (8:31)

And we are back. We've been discussing a new indictment of former FBI Director James Comey. Now, this fits into a broader effort by the Trump administration to remake the Justice Department. Kerry, you watch the Justice Department closely. What should we know about what he has changed?

Carrie Johnson (8:48)

There's been a wholesale reordering of the Justice Department in just something like eight months. Three in four lawyers in the Civil Rights division have left. Prosecutors who worked to investigate Donald Trump in the years when he was out of office were fired early on. Other people were fired or quit their jobs as career prosecutors because they say they were asked to do things they thought were unethical or to make misrepresentations to courts about stuff like the deal, deportation of migrants, for instance. And so it's been a very rocky time over at justice, and there's a lot of concern that the long traditions of treating people the same, no matter who they are and who they know, that those things are now out the window.

Danielle Kurtzleben (9:32)

This is a thing that I have been wondering, watching people leave. Of those people who have left of their own volition, do you know, have any spoken to you? Are they conflicted, as in choosing between stay and try to do the job the way that I think it should be done, or leave and let someone who might do the job differently take over.

Carrie Johnson (9:49)

Yeah, there's been a lot of soul searching about that very issue. Some people are trying to stay as long as they can until a red line in their mind is crossed by this administration until they specifically are asked to do something they believe is lawless. Other people think that line has already been crossed and you can't really continue to serve in this DOJ and, and maintain your sense of self and integrity and the traditions you were taught as a prosecutor a long time ago.

Danielle Kurtzleben (10:16)

So the new people in the Justice Department, practically speaking, how have they changed the agency's work, its focus?

Carrie Johnson (10:22)

Well, the priorities have changed a lot in this administration, and that's not all that unusual. And it seems totally fine in terms of the president has a lot of prerogative here to transfer FBI agents and ATF agents, say, to do immigration enforcement or do federal surges in places like D.C. and Los Angeles. The question is some. Some of the lawyers who are in court day to day defending some of Trump's executive orders and other policies, they're so cut to the bone, they're so overworked, and some of them are so concerned about keeping their integrity with the courts that those teams are very, very understaffed. They're making mistakes, and it's been a real challenge for them.

Danielle Kurtzleben (11:04)

Now, Mara, on the campaign trail, we both know Trump talked about revenge a lot. He talked about the justice system being weaponized against him a lot. How much of what he's doing now stems from his campaign posts?

Mara Liasson (11:15)

Well, I think it's exactly what he promised to do. He said he wanted the Department of Justice to carry out his program of revenge. He talked about how Article 2 gives him the right to do anything he wants. Article two, of course, is the one establishing the executive branch. And don't forget, this isn't just Trump being transparent and doing what he said he would do during the campaign. The Supreme Court did something very important when they gave him immunity. So there are no criminal legal consequences for him to break these norms that have governed every other president. Other presidents could have done this. There wasn't a law against it, but they didn't. They wanted the public to believe and to have faith in the Justice Department that there was rule of law, that there would be a level playing field, that everyone would be treated the same even if they were a friend or an enemy of the president's, because they feel that in a democracy, people have to have faith in institutions, that they're not corrupt. The opposite of the rule of law is corruption. And Donald Trump really doesn't care what people think about him. First of all, he has immunity, but also he's not gonna run for another term.

Danielle Kurtzleben (12:19)

Yeah. And congruently, it strikes me that maybe this fits into what he's doing in other areas of government, like trying to influence the Federal Reserve, which is an independent entity, because he believes that Article.

Mara Liasson (12:32)

2 gives him the right to do anything he wants, that he should have complete control, not just over the executive branch, but also over the other two branches.

Danielle Kurtzleben (12:39)

Gotcha.

Mara Liasson (12:40)

That's what authoritarianism is. It's not the rule of law. It's the rule of one guy.

Danielle Kurtzleben (12:45)

So this all might feel far removed To a lot of people, to a lot of our listeners, when might people start feeling the effects of these changes in the Justice Department? Will people ever feel these effects?

Carrie Johnson (12:54)

I think there is some evidence that's already occurring, Danielle. And we have some evidence here in D.C. that grand juries have actually refused to indict people caught up in this federal surge in the city. Something like 11 times I talk with old time lawyers, guys who spent 25, 30 years, 35 years in that office. That almost never happened. And it happened 11 times in D.C. in the last month. The other thing is that judges are no longer taking the Justice Department's word for things. They're demanding more evidence. And that's a sign, too, that some of the credibility the DOJ has built up in these places has now been lost.

Mara Liasson (13:30)

The Comey grand jury refused one of the counts, which is interesting. And, you know, the old adage is that a grand jury will indict even a ham sandwich. They're kind of putty in the hands of the prosecutors. Well, guess what? They refused to indict the guy who threw a sandwich at a federal agent.

Danielle Kurtzleben (13:44)

Okay, so Comey indicted now, but Trump may not stop there. Who could be next?

Carrie Johnson (13:50)

Yeah, the president has been pretty blatant about this. He talked about New York Attorney General Tish James. He's talked about California Democratic Senator Adam Schiff. There's an entire group in the Justice Department that's been set up to what they say is root out weaponization inside the doj. But instead, they appear to be pursuing a list of people who have run afoula Donald Trump. The president even talked about that today outside of the White House. It's not a list, but I think there'll be others. I mean, they're corrupt.

Danielle Kurtzleben (14:20)

All right, so we should expect more.

Carrie Johnson (14:22)

In short, I think we should expect more possibly as soon as this afternoon. So we're all going to be kind of busy for a long time.

Danielle Kurtzleben (14:29)

Final question. What is next in the Comey indictment? When is he arraigned?

Carrie Johnson (14:33)

Comey is scheduled to be in court Oct. 9, along with his lawyer, Pat Fitzgerald. They have a number of defenses at their disposal. One is that because President Trump has been so upfront about wanting to get revenge against Jim Comey that Comey may decide to file a motion that he's being prosecuted vindictively and to get the judge to throw out the case before it ever gets to a jury. Interestingly enough, this judge is a longtime former public defender who also served as a magistrate. He's got a lot of experience in the courts.

Danielle Kurtzleben (15:07)

All right. We're going to take a quick break, and when we get back, it's time for Can't Let It Go.

Carrie Johnson (15:12)

Military commanders, intelligence officials, diplomatic power players. They know things you may not about where the world is headed. And we will pull back the curtain.

Mara Liasson (15:21)

On what they're thinking.

Carrie Johnson (15:22)

On sources and methods, NPR's new national security podcast. Our team will help you understand America's shifting role in the world. Listen to Sources and Methods from npr. Sources and Methods, the crown jewels of the intelligence community, shorthand for how do we know what's real? Who told us? If you have those answers, you're on the inside and NPR wants to bring you there. From the Pentagon to the State Department to spying agencies, listen to understand what's really happening and what it means for you.

Mara Liasson (15:56)

Sources and Methods, the new national Security podcast from npr.

Danielle Kurtzleben (16:00)

What's made you happy as of late.

Carrie Johnson (16:02)

On Pop Culture Happy Hour, we've been.

Mara Liasson (16:04)

Talking about the things that have made.

Carrie Johnson (16:05)

Us happy in the pop culture universe.

Danielle Kurtzleben (16:07)

For the past 15 years. Whether it's a blockbuster or deliciously bad.

Carrie Johnson (16:12)

Reality TV, the newest shows, dramas and.

Danielle Kurtzleben (16:15)

Reboots, we're here to keep your spirits high. Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. And we are back. And it's time to end the show like we do every Friday with Can't Let It Go. This is the part of the show where we talk about the things from the week that we just can't stop thinking about, politics or otherwise. Carrie Johnson, you are up first. What can't you let go of?

Carrie Johnson (16:39)

Okay, I'm embracing my Gen X status and I'm gonna pick the idea that legendary skateboarder Tony Hawk, one of his boards just sold for over $1 million. This is a board that he rode in the x Games in 1999. Uh huh. He did the first ever 900 trick. What? That is two and a half turns, which is like a really big and dangerous thing to do. And he succeeded. And happily enough. I love Tony Hawk also because his son married Kurt Cobain's daughter and now they have a family together, Francis Bee. So it makes me so happy to see that loving couple and something very good to have come out of their relationship.

Danielle Kurtzleben (17:25)

That is an excellent 90s themed can't let it Go. I love it. Mara Liasson, how about you? What can't you let it go?

Mara Liasson (17:31)

Okay. Well, today we were talking about the rule of law. My Can't Let it Go this week is the rule of the jungle or the urban jungle because there was an aggressive squirrel. It's attacked two people in California in the San Francisco area. It sent both of them to the hospital. We don't know if this was a deranged squirrel or a starving squirrel or a diseased squirrel. More than five people have been attacked by him. He's very mean and comes out of nowhere. So this is, to me, extraordinary. Squirrels have been coexisting with humans in cities for hundreds and hundreds of years. And I just wonder if this is another example about how we just can't get along anymore with other people or species and how everything these days is us versus them, even with small, furry, urban wildlife.

Danielle Kurtzleben (18:18)

You mentioned that he might be deranged or diseased. What if he has a motive?

Mara Liasson (18:21)

What if he has a motive?

Danielle Kurtzleben (18:23)

Yeah, maybe this is a rational squirrel.

Mara Liasson (18:25)

One woman was walking in her neighborhood, and the squirrel seemingly came out of nowhere and attacked her leg. The other time, the squirrel launched itself and went up to a woman's face, but then landed on her leg. I'm sorry. It went up to it, launched itself from the ground to her face and wound up on her arm. They're rodents, and they're all these flyers, they've been posted warning residents. This is no joke. That the squirrel is very mean and he comes out of nowhere.

Danielle Kurtzleben (18:54)

Listeners, you can't see this, but Carrie and I both kind of flapped our hands and discussed about this whole thing.

Carrie Johnson (19:01)

I'm very. I'm very alarmed.

Danielle Kurtzleben (19:03)

No, this is upsetting. I. I'm not gonna let this go for a while. It's nightmare fuel. All right, I will go last here. Let me tell you guys what I can't let go of. It is a. It's become a trend on TikTok. It was kicked off by a woman named Phoebe Adams. Have you guys ever shopped at Anthropologie?

Carrie Johnson (19:17)

Oh, hell, yeah.

Danielle Kurtzleben (19:18)

Okay. Absolutely. So you are aware of their expensive home goods?

Carrie Johnson (19:22)

Expensive, yeah.

Danielle Kurtzleben (19:24)

Yeah. Understatement. Right? So a woman named Phoebe Adams posted a TikTok, where she opens a. A box, ostensibly, that has been sent to her house and pulls out a rock and tells her boyfriend, my rock from anthropology just arrived.

Carrie Johnson (19:38)

Isn't it beautiful?

Danielle Kurtzleben (19:39)

And he's like, how much did it cost? She goes, $150. It was on sale. And this has ballooned. She made a sequel where the anthropology store got in on it. Oh, she brought him into the store, and there was a rock display, and it said, 50% off. She picks up a rock, and she's like, it's only a thousand dollars. And her, her boyfriend, meanwhile, is going bonkers, losing his mind over the idiocy of this. But I have seen multiple kind of copycat videos where people pull this on their relatives. And first of all, it's funny. But second of all, the fact that anthropology got in on it, I don't know how to feel about this. Like, yeah, so you're aware that you are overpricing your various candles and stuff and you're playing it. It just feels, it feels like anthropology saying, you're welcome, America, come get $75 candles. We're doing great. Yeah. That said, I still covet half the stuff that they sell. So what can I say?

Carrie Johnson (20:32)

They have nice dresses. Oh, yeah.

Danielle Kurtzleben (20:34)

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. That is a wrap for today. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Our editor is Rachel Bay. Our producers are Casey Morell and Bria Suggs. Thank you to Kelsey Snell and Krishnadev Kalimur. I am Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover the White Paper House.

Carrie Johnson (20:50)

I'm Carrie Johnson. I cover the Justice Department.

Mara Liasson (20:52)

And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.

Danielle Kurtzleben (20:56)

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast. Here at Life Kit, we take advice seriously. We bring you evidence based recommendations. And to do that, we talk with researchers and experts on all sorts of topics because we have the same questions you do, like what's really in my shampoo? Or should I let my kid quit soccer? Or what should I do with my savings in uncertain economic times? You can listen to NPR's Life Kit in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Short Wave thinks of science as an invisible force showing up in your everyday life, powering the food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. It science is approachable because it's already part of your life.

Carrie Johnson (21:49)

Come explore these connections on the shortwave podcast from NPR.