Looking At Reproductive Rights In 2024

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Looking At Reproductive Rights In 2024" – The NPR Politics Podcast

Release Date: December 17, 2024
Host: Sarah McCammon
Contributors: Mara Liasson, Senior National Political Correspondent; Alyssa Nadworny, Reproductive Rights Correspondent

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Introduction

In the December 17, 2024 episode of The NPR Politics Podcast, host Sarah McCammon engages in an in-depth discussion on the state of reproductive rights in the United States amidst the 2024 election cycle. Joining her are Mara Liasson and Alyssa Nadworny, who provide expert insights into the evolving political landscape surrounding abortion rights, the implications of President-elect Donald Trump's stance, and the outcomes of recent state-level ballot measures.

President-Elect Donald Trump's Stance on Abortion

The episode opens with an exploration of President-elect Donald Trump's ambiguous positioning on abortion rights. Sarah McCammon prompts Alyssa Nadworny to clarify Trump's mixed messages:

“Trump has actually accomplished that by, as you said, boasting about appointing the conservative Supreme Court justices that overturned Roe. But he's also spent the entire campaign saying it's now up to the states. He wouldn't sign a national abortion ban and you don't have anything to worry about” ([01:58]).

Alyssa highlights that while Trump's Cabinet nominations, such as Health and Human Services nominee Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., show support for abortion rights, the overarching policy direction may predominantly reflect Trump's personal stance. Mara Liasson adds:

“Trump controls the Republican Party lock, stock and barrel... I can't imagine that some kind of a federal law or regulation that would in effect ban abortion will be able to happen during the Trump administration” ([07:18]).

Rising Abortion Rates Post-Dobbs Decision

Contrary to expectations that the overturning of Roe v. Wade would decrease the number of abortions, Alyssa reveals an increase in abortion rates since the Dobbs decision, attributing this rise primarily to advancements in telehealth:

“Since Dobbs, the number of abortions has grown and that's mostly due to the rise of telehealth” ([03:09]).

She further explains that the expansion of telehealth services during the pandemic has facilitated easier access to abortion medication, contributing significantly to the uptick.

State Ballot Measures: Successes and Failures

The discussion transitions to the outcomes of various state ballot measures concerning abortion rights in the 2024 elections. Alyssa provides a breakdown:

“Most states that considered abortion rights amendments approved them, seven either expanded or cemented abortion access into their state constitutions. It failed in three places... Florida, South Dakota, and Nebraska” ([10:15]).

• Florida: The amendment narrowly failed, achieving 57% approval against the required 60% threshold.
• South Dakota: A proposed amendment to allow first-trimester abortions did not pass.
• Nebraska: Confusion arose from competing initiatives, resulting in the rejection of an amendment protecting abortion up to viability while another attempting to prohibit abortion after the first trimester was approved.

Voter Behavior and Compartmentalization

A salient point of analysis is the apparent disconnect between voters' support for abortion rights measures and their presidential vote for Trump. Mara Liasson articulates this phenomenon:

“Voters, including many suburban women, could have it both ways. They could vote for him, and they could vote for abortion rights” ([12:25]).

This compartmentalization indicates that voters may prioritize certain issues independently, rather than aligning their choices across different political dimensions.

Future Legislative Actions and State-Level Developments

Looking ahead, the podcast examines potential legislative moves and state-level initiatives that could further shape the landscape of reproductive rights:

1. Missouri’s Constitutional Amendment: Alyssa notes the state's recent approval of an amendment expanding abortion access is being challenged by existing restrictive laws, leading to proposed votes to overturn the amendment ([14:00]).

2. Travel Restrictions: States like Idaho and Tennessee have enacted laws preventing minors from traveling across state lines for abortion services, which Alyssa identifies as a critical area to monitor ([14:30]).

3. Personhood Movement in Alabama: A judge’s ruling classifying embryos as persons has wrought significant turmoil in reproductive technologies, such as IVF, eliciting substantial backlash ([14:50]).

Patchwork of Abortion Access in America

Concluding the episode, Mara Liasson and Alyssa Nadworny emphasize the fragmented nature of abortion access across the United States:

“That's what abortion access is like in America right now. It's a patchwork. One state is near total ban. 15 minutes across the state border has access up to 24 weeks” ([15:15]).

This disparity underscores the ongoing battle over reproductive rights, with significant variation in access depending on geographic location.

Conclusion

The episode of The NPR Politics Podcast provides a comprehensive analysis of the current state and future trajectory of reproductive rights in the U.S. It highlights the complexities introduced by political maneuvers at both the federal and state levels, voter behavior nuances, and the pivotal role of telehealth in shaping abortion access. As the nation moves into 2025, the interplay between political strategies, legislative actions, and public sentiment will continue to define the landscape of reproductive rights.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Alyssa Nadworny on Trump’s mixed messages:

  “Trump has actually accomplished that by, as you said, boasting about appointing the conservative Supreme Court justices that overturned Roe...” ([01:58]).

• Mara Liasson on the improbability of a federal abortion ban under Trump:

  “I can't imagine that some kind of a federal law or regulation that would in effect ban abortion will be able to happen during the Trump administration” ([07:18]).

• Alyssa Nadworny on the rise of telehealth affecting abortion rates:

  “Since Dobbs, the number of abortions has grown and that's mostly due to the rise of telehealth” ([03:09]).

• Mara Liasson on voter compartmentalization:

  “Voters, including many suburban women, could have it both ways. They could vote for him, and they could vote for abortion rights” ([12:25]).

• Alyssa Nadworny on Missouri's legislative challenges:

  “They actually haven't been able to even implement that amendment in the sense that abortions aren't really happening in the state until a judge says, hey, you can't enforce those laws currently on the books” ([14:00]).

• Mara Liasson on the patchwork of abortion access:

  “That's what abortion access is like in America right now. It's a patchwork...” ([15:15]).

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This summary encapsulates the critical discussions and insights presented in the episode, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of reproductive rights' current state and future prospects in the United States.

Transcript

[Carvana]

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[Mateo]

Hello, this is Mateo. I'm watching the sunrise from the summit of Mount Whitney, the highest point in the contiguous United States.

[Sarah McCammon]

This podcast was recorded at 1:05pm Eastern Time on Tuesday, December 17, 2024.

[Mateo]

Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but I will hopefully be down the mountain after five days in the backcountry. Here's the show.

[Mara Liasson]

Wow. Congratulations.

[Sarah McCammon]

Sounds beautiful. Get home safe. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover politics.

[Mara Liasson]

And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.

[Sarah McCammon]

And Alyssa Nadworny is with us. She covers reproductive rights for npr. Welcome back, Alyssa.

[Alyssa Nadworny]

Happy to be here.

[Sarah McCammon]

On today's show, we're talking about reproductive rights, what happened in 2024 and what could be coming in 2025. Alyssa, I want to start with President elect Donald Trump. One of the things we've reported on a lot this year was his mixed messages on abortion. Remind us, what has he said he wants to do?

[Alyssa Nadworny]

Well, I mean, I think a lot of people in the abortion space are kind of looking at what Trump did last presidency and kind of less about what he's actually said he's gonna do in this next one.

[Sarah McCammon]

Yeah. And you know, Mara, on the campaign trail, Trump, he said he wants to leave abortion to the states, but he also bragged about being the person who got Roe v. Wade overturned by appointing those conservative Supreme Court justices. He also, in his first administration, enacted policies that reduced funding for reproductive healthcare for groups like Planned Parenthood, who abortions. What can we learn so far from Trump's Cabinet nominations for his second term about how he might handle abortion this time?

[Mara Liasson]

Well, I actually think that his Cabinet is much less important than him because everything in a Trump administration is very Trump centric. But yes, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. The Health and Human Services nominee, supports abortion rights, but I think that the policy on abortion will be coming from the president himself. And the political trick for anybody dealing with a difficult issue is to convince two groups holding diametrically opposite views that you're with both of them. And Trump has actually accomplished that by, as you said, boasting about appointing the conservative Supreme Court justices that overturned Roe. But he's also spent the entire campaign saying it's now up to the states. He wouldn't sign a national abortion ban and you don't have anything to worry about. All of the changes on abortion have basically been completed. If that will hold, we don't know.

[Sarah McCammon]

It seems like such a strange and interesting time for the anti abortion rights movement. On the one hand, in the last few years they've seen these enormous victories, the overturning of Roe v. Wade. At the same time, I mean, Alyssa, the number of abortions in the US Is actually higher, right?

[Alyssa Nadworny]

That's right. Since Dobbs, since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, the number of abortions has grown and that's mostly due to the rise of telehealth.

[Carvana]

So.

[Alyssa Nadworny]

So you can now access doctors on the Internet over text message to get abortion pills sent to your home. I think the rise in the number of abortions has really made anti abortion groups kind of stand up and put together plans and roadmaps for President Trump on kind of like what to do next. You know, this fight isn't over. Like Dobbs wasn't the end for the anti abortion movement.

[Mara Liasson]

Well, Alyssa, how much of the rise in abortion is not just telehealth and mailing things through the mail, but the prevalence of chemical abortions or medical abortions overall? In other words, abortions are more and more performed by taking a pill or a set of pills than they are with some kind of a procedure in a doctor's office. Is that correct?

[Alyssa Nadworny]

So, yeah, the majority of abortions happen through medication. But I would say that the rise from Dobbs is probably some, in part due to the expansion of medication, but mostly just due to the way that you can get medication. I mean, the experts that I've talked to who are tracking this stuff say really telehealth is huge because that was expanded during the pandemic. That's kind of how we're seeing this number tick up. Even with, you know, places like Florida where the number of abortions in state has gone way, way down.

[Sarah McCammon]

I mean, this is a place where the new administration could take some action, is it not, Alyssa?

[Alyssa Nadworny]

Yes, absolutely, Sarah. I think this is really going to be kind of the next frontier for the anti abortion movement. This is where the administration could come in with kind of rolling back some of the FDA guidelines that expanded sending medication through the mail. But it's also a place where states are starting to like pass telehealth bans or pass restrictions against the medication.

[Sarah McCammon]

And Alyssa, remind us, I mean, there was that high profile litigation that started in Texas that I know I covered and I think you and some of our Other colleagues have covered different pieces of it that worked its way to the Supreme Court. This was the anti abortion group that was trying to essentially reverse the approval of the abortion pill mifepristone. They didn't succeed. But as you said, many of these groups still have their eye on this medication because it is such a dominant method for abortion in this country. What are some of the levers that the new administration could pull? What are some of the ways they could restrict access in theory?

[Alyssa Nadworny]

Well, the big one, of course, is through Health and Human Services and the fda. The FDA could essentially roll back some of their expanded access to medication. The other way that they could do that is through something called the Comstock act, which and 1800s Anti Obscenity Law that essentially could stop the flow of things used in an abortion. So that would include things like medication, that would include things like medical supplies for even a surgical abortion. The main thing that the administration can do is interpret kind of current laws and current regulations on the books. The Biden administration basically chose not to enforce those laws and a new Trump administration could change their stance.

[Sarah McCammon]

And Mara, I'm curious. It seems that President Elect Trump will have pressure from a variety of opposing directions on this issue. On the one hand, anti abortion activists are well aware that they have been crucial to both of his elections. At the same time, he seems to be well aware that this is not a popular issue for Republicans at this point. After the overturning of Roe v. Wade.

[Mara Liasson]

No, not at all. As a matter of fact, he's blamed the anti abortion movement for losses in the midterms. He considered it a big political headache and that's why he sent the message to the anti abortion forces, stand down. Stop advocating publicly for a national ban. He had to go so far as to say he wouldn't sign one if it came to his desk. So I think that they're going to have to step aside. Trump controls the Republican Party lock, stock and barrel. They can focus their attentions on the states. But I can't imagine that some kind of a federal law or regulation that would, that would in effect ban abortion will be able to happen during the Trump administration.

[Sarah McCammon]

It's time for a break. We'll have more in just a moment.

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[Sarah McCammon]

And we're back. During the campaign, Trump repeatedly, as we've said, tried to avoid the abortion issue by stressing that he would leave it to the states. And that is where a lot of regulation of abortion happens. You know, Republicans will control Congress, but likely not by a large enough margin to pass an national abortion ban. And as we said, Trump has said he wouldn't sign one. Alyssa voters in several states in the 2024 election did have a chance to weigh in directly on the abortion issue. There were multiple ballot measures on the subject this year. Remind us if you could just how did those turn out?

[Alyssa Nadworny]

Well, you know, most states that considered abortion rights amendments approved them, seven either expanded or cemented abortion access into their state constitutions. It failed in three places. First was Florida. That was when a lot of folks were watching because they had to reach a 60% threshold in order to pass. They had a big majority, 57%, but not quite that 60%. And so that failed there. In South Dakota, which has a near total abortion ban, their proposed amendment would have allowed abortions in the first trimester, about 12 weeks. And, you know, abortion rights group said that it didn't go far enough. They didn't really fund it. It failed there. And then in Nebraska, there was an initiative to essentially expand access up to viability, and that failed. Nebraska's kind of a little weird. There were two competing initiatives there. So voters actually did approve an amendment that prohibited abortion after the first trimester. And then the one that failed was the one that protected it up to viability. So a little confusing for voters to.

[Sarah McCammon]

Have two, but still big picture. Most of them passed. And that was a continuation, really, of the pattern we'd been seeing since the Dobbs decision in one of the most interesting results of this election. On that note, I thought, was the gap between Vice President Kamala Harris's performance in many of these states and the performance of the abortion rights measures. So in other words, in a lot of cases, voters were voting for abortion rights while also voting for Trump. Mara, what does that suggest about how voters are thinking about all of these issues, you know, that they have to think about when they cast a ballot for the president?

[Mara Liasson]

Well, they're compartmentalizing them. The theory of the case of the Harris campaign was that these pro choice referenda would bring out voters who would vote for Kamala Harris. Well, guess what? They. Most of them won. Some of them won by curvature of the earth. So they won almost everywhere and helped Kamala Harris almost nowhere. They just didn't turn around and vote for her. Trump convinced them that they could. That voters, including many suburban women, could have it both ways. They could vote for him and they could vote for abortion rights.

[Sarah McCammon]

Yeah, but Democrats banked on this issue in a way that, as you said, it clearly didn't pan out for them in the election.

[Mara Liasson]

No, the referenda won. They were right that these were popular initiatives, but it didn't carry over. It didn't bring out voters that otherwise would vote for Kamala Harris. They thought that all those suburban pro choice women would come out and they would understand that Kamala Harris was the pro choice candidate. But Trump convinced them that they could have it both ways. They could vote for him, and they didn't. Have to worry about abortion rights being endangered because then they could turn around and vote for the referenda in their state.

[Sarah McCammon]

I mean, we've talked about how this issue has shifted for Republicans, putting them on the defensive in many cases. But it seems like Democrats can't bank on this the way that they have been. How might this shift the way that they navigate the politics around abortion going forward?

[Mara Liasson]

Well, they were right about one thing, that a majority of voters support abortion rights. And the thing they were wrong about was that getting voters out who support abortion rights would help their candidate. It just didn't carry over to Kamala Harris. But they certainly are on the winning side of abortion rights. Almost everywhere it was on the ballot, it won. And I don't think that they shift their stance on abortion rights at all going forward, but they have to figure out why it didn't help her.

[Sarah McCammon]

As we continue to talk about the states and the role the states play in this issue, what else will you be watching for as many states reconvene their legislative sessions in the new year?

[Alyssa Nadworny]

Well, one of the things I'm going to be watching is whether state lawmakers try and ask this question of abortion rights on the ballot again. So Missouri is a great example. I was just there. They passed a constitutional amendment expanding abortion access. You know, they're still waiting to see if that's gonna actually translate to clinics. There's several laws on the books there that include a near total abortion ban, plus waiting periods and other restrictions. So they actually haven't been able to even implement that amendment in the sense that abortions aren't really happening in the state until a judge says, hey, you can't enforce those laws currently on the books. And Republic lawmakers I talked to there are actually already proposing a vote for next year. So they want to ask that question to voters again and see if they can get that amendment overturned. So I'm going to be watching that. The other thing I'm going to be watching is how states are restricting things like travel. So Idaho, Tennessee, they passed laws prohibiting minors from crossing state lines to access abortion care. I'm going to be watching the personhood movement. You know, in Alabama, a judge there essentially said an embryo should be treated as a person, and that kind of really deregulated and kind of messed up IVF and had a big backlash in that state. So I'm going to be watching for specific things like that.

[Mara Liasson]

Sarah, Alyssa, are we seeing what people were predicting when Roe was overturned, that you're going to have two different Americas, you're going to have states where abortion is effectively banned completely and states where it's not.

[Alyssa Nadworny]

Absolutely. That's what abortion access is like in America right now. It's a patchwork. One state is near total ban. 15 minutes across the state border has access up to 24 weeks.

[Sarah McCammon]

We are going to leave it there for today. Alyssa Nadworny, thanks for being here.

[Alyssa Nadworny]

You bet.

[Sarah McCammon]

I'm Sarah McCammon, I cover politics.

[Mara Liasson]

And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.

[Sarah McCammon]

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.

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