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- [00:00]
Domenico Montanaro
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Judy from Mound, Minnesota
Hey, this is Judy from Mound, Minnesota.
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Odette Youssef
David and I just finished a year long camping tour of the national parks.
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Judy from Mound, Minnesota
This podcast was recorded on Wednesday, September.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
24Th at 1:07pm Eastern.
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Jason DeRose
Things may have changed by the time.
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Judy from Mound, Minnesota
You hear this, but I will still.
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Jason DeRose
Be reflecting on our beautiful country filled with beautiful people. Okay, enjoy the show.
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Domenico Montanaro
Aw. Here's a free idea for 2026.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
Yeah.
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Domenico Montanaro
An NPR Politics podcast, slash national parks calendar. What do we think?
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Danielle Kurtzleben
Okay, so are there photos, are there photos of us in like Yosemite or something?
- [00:58]
Domenico Montanaro
I don't know, maybe our listeners. Why us? It's about them.
- [01:02]
Danielle Kurtzleben
I don't know. I'm uncomfortable for some reason. Hey, there it is, the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover the White House.
- [01:11]
Domenico Montanaro
And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
And we have a special guest, NPR religion correspondent Jason derose. Hey, Jason.
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Jason DeRose
Hello.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
Today on the show, we are talking about Charlie Kirk's memorial service this past weekend and specifically what part Kirk's Christian faith played in his politics and vice versa. So, Domenico, let's start with you. You watched that service. It reflected Charlie Kirk's evangelical Christian faith. So let's just start with the basics. What happened at that service.
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Domenico Montanaro
Yeah. And where it took place was important, too, because it was in Arizona and, you know, Turning Point usa, which is what Charlie Kirk had founded, is based there. And they held this massive event in a football stadium with, you know, I mean, you're talking tens of thousands of people. And it felt, you know, part religious ceremony, remembering Charlie Kirk's life and all of that, and part political rally. TPA Turning Point action. President Trump was there. You had a whole slew of administration officials who were there, not just eulogizing and memorializing Charlie Kirk as his wife, Erica Kirk said she forgave the shooter in a very emotional moment in that service. But then you have President Trump get up there and say he hates his, his opponents, that he can't agree with Erica Kirk and maybe she can convince him, but he doesn't feel that way. So it was a very unusual kind of event, especially for someone who wasn't really, you know, a pastor or someone of the cloth to have such a religious overtone for this kind of an event. But Kirk's Christianity really was infused throughout his Politics. There was even a Turning Point faith piece of things that be became more popular in recent years. And it was always, you know, Bible passages and the like were laced throughout his events on campuses. And his political action as it, you know, has also now influenced the Trump government.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
And, Jason, we have politics and religion butting up against each other or alternately overlapping here. How did this service reflect evangelical Christian symbols and what we would typically see at a religious memorial service?
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Jason DeRose
Well, I would say it was really a hybrid of the two, a hybrid of a political rally and a memorial service in the Christian tradition, although I think it tended a lot more toward a political rally. And, you know, I've never before heard a memorial service that talked about vengeance in the way this one did. I mean, that was really striking. I mean, another thing that really struck me was the central imagery on the stage was the Turning Point USA logo sort of floating around on those screens, not the Christian cross, which, you know, is a surprising thing to not have at a memorial service. While there was an overlay of religion, the central iconography, I think, was the Turning Point USA logo and a very large portrait of Charlie Kirk there on the stage. Also a lot of flags, military flags, the US Flag, which, you know, is not an uncomplicated thing to have at a worship service. Lots of clergy would say, I don't want a US Flag in a worship service because God is God of all the nations, not just of this nation. So I really saw this fusing of the two, and I call it a hybrid, because they weren't bumping up against each other. They were working in concert to, I think, reinforce each other as the people who put the memorial service together were trying to do.
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Domenico Montanaro
And in person, I mean, there was a very large cross there. I mean, there was a man who brought a cross with him that was, you know, 10 plus feet tall, but it wasn't like hanging in the middle of the church, you know, in this case, in the football stadium. Yeah, right.
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Jason DeRose
Well. And, you know, that guy actually shows up at a lot of different events. When I was covering the shooting at the church in Minneapolis just a few weeks ago, he was standing in front of that church, too. So that was not really part of the service. That was a guy who shows up with that cross at things like this.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
Well, there's a big question after this service that I really have been noodling that I can't get over. And it's this. It's that Erica Kirk, as Domenico said, she got up and said, I forgive him, of the man who allegedly killed her husband. Now, forgiveness is central to Christianity, but it's also very not central to the MAGA movement. As you guys have pointed out, Donald Trump got up and talked about his opponents and how he hates them. But also, Jason, you've said that Christianity and MAGA Republicanism really were in concert here. So how do those two things come together? Is there a conflict, or does this logic work?
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Jason DeRose
Well, it seemed like there was a conflict between what Erica Kirk was saying, I forgive him. I mean, she's essentially quoting Jesus, hanging on the cross, forgiving the people who crucified him in the Gospels, and then having Donald Trump just moments later come out and say, I hate my enemies. I don't want what's best for them. And that's what I meant by sort of a talk of vengeance at a memorial service is really stunning to me, and not stunning, because I think we're used to it from Donald Trump, but stunning at a memorial service, which rarely have I. I don't think I've ever heard one that talks about vengeance in that way.
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Domenico Montanaro
Yeah, I mean, there's an inherent tension between what, you know, you normally hear from religious people and any religion, the mainstream of those religions, talking about peace and patience and forgiveness. Those are key tenets. Right. For Trump, it's very different. And he kind of gives the crowd a permission structure to not have to feel like they have to forgive, but you gotta get on your horse, so to speak, and get to work politically.
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Jason DeRose
But, you know, it's a very different kind of Christianity that he's talking about, because he's not talking about the love and forgive. You know, one of the critiques of the MAGA movement by Christians who are not, say, white evangelical Christians, but the many other kinds of Christians in the United States and around the world is that they focus on the teachings of Jesus to do things like feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to welcome the stranger, to house the homeless, to heal the sick. And they think that is the central message of Christianity, not the power of God, but the care for the neighbor. And that critique is central to people who disagree with this version of Trump's understanding of Christianity.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
Right. So the intertwining of white evangelical Christianity and modern Republican politics that goes back decades, but this does not feel the way it felt in the 90s in the George W. Bush 2000s. Domenico, what has changed?
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Domenico Montanaro
Well, I think it's different type of Christianity also. I mean, different types of wings of this. Right. Just because you hear Bible passages, you know, put on TikTok, doesn't necessarily mean that the agenda or the goals are the same. Right. And there's a difference here, because this style of what we're talking about that's infused with Trump's politics is really about guiding government and being in power, you know, over other religions. Certainly. This is how this, you know, kind of Christian nationalism sort of feels about it. I mean, Christianity and evangelical Christianity has been something that really kind of came on the rise in politics in the 1970s. Jimmy Carter, Democrat, became really the first self avowed, born again white Christian evangelical to win the presidency. Then we saw that again with George W. Bush. He really rode what had been this movement that had started in the 1980s with Pat Robertson. And we see it every four years on the campaign trail in Republican politics, especially in places like Iowa, as you know. Well, Danielle, but George W. Bush and the way that he tried to frame what Republicans are based on his Christianity was about compassionate concerns. And I think that was very much rooted in his religion. That's not what we're seeing right now.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
Yeah. I would ask you this, Jason. This connection between Christianity and the MAGA movement escalated in some ways following the assassination attempt on Donald Trump's life in July 2024 in Butler, Pennsylvania. And I can tell you I was there, and then I was there at his second Butler rally where many people in the crowd talked to me about God. They said that God saved Trump that day. And, and now this assassination has happened. And I'm wondering, how does this religious political connection change when you have this kind of very present, terrifying, deadly threat?
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Jason DeRose
Well, I think what you saw after the attempt on his life in July of 2024 was almost immediately pastors who support him and other political people who supported him started saying God saved Donald Trump's life in order for him to be president, in order for him to be the leader of the country. That is a unique way of talking, you know, assassination attempts. But the idea that God saved Trump for this specific thing, it became very quickly the rhetoric of the day and, you know, has really, I would say, kicked into high gear there and has maybe reached its apotheosis this past weekend in this memorial service that aligning Trump's agenda with what God wants, which is very different from, you know, traditionally politicians try to say, I'm trying to be on God's side, rather than saying, God is on my side. This was very much a, a God is on my side kind of rally this past weekend. And I would say, you know, going back, really kicking into high gear at that first assassination attempt in Pennsylvania.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
Okay. Well, we're gonna have to leave it on that note. Jason, thank you so much for joining us.
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Jason DeRose
You're welcome.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
And we're going to have more on the connection between politics and evangelical Christianity in a moment.
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Judy from Mound, Minnesota
Sources and Methods, the crown jewels of the intelligence community, shorthand for how do we know what's real? Who told us? If you have those answers, you're on the inside and NPR wants to bring you there. From the Pentagon to the State Department to spy agencies, listen to understand what's really happening and what it means for you. Sources and Methods, the new National Security podcast from npr.
- [11:22]
Domenico Montanaro
On the Throughline podcast from npr, immigration enforcement might be more visible now, but this moment didn't begin with President Trump's second inauguration or even his first, a series from Throughline about how immigration became political and a cash cow. Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [11:47]
Judy from Mound, Minnesota
Military commanders, intelligence officials, diplomatic power players. They know things you may not about where the world is headed. And we will pull back the curtain on what they're thinking on sources and methods. NPR's new National Security podcast. Our team will help you understand America's shifting role in the world. Listen to Sources and Methods from npr.
- [12:10]
Odette Youssef
It's fall, so maybe you're figuring out your Halloween costume or where to get a pumpkin spice latte. And if you want to know what buzzy movies and TV shows to check out this fall, we've got you covered. Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [12:28]
Danielle Kurtzleben
And we are back with NPR's domestic extremism correspondent, Odette Youssef. Hi, Odette.
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Odette Youssef
Hey, Danielle.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
I want to start by asking you about Christian nationalism, because I know it's going to come up in this conversation. So give us a quick definition. What exactly is it?
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Odette Youssef
Yeah. So Christian nationalism is a worldview that believes that America was founded as a Christian nation and, and where people believe that America must return to being a Christian nation. And one of the important things about this worldview is that, you know, we've always sort of held a sort of a principle in America, the separation of church and state. Well, what you frequently hear from Christian nationalists is that that has historically been misapplied and misinterpreted and that, you know, it's been incorrectly, they would say, used to keep the church out of the state when they say it was always intended to keep the state out of the church. And it was really, Danielle, during the COVID years that this became sort of turbocharged when you saw states sort of barring religious groups from holding, you know, large services, particularly indoors, you know, that was really seasoned upon as an example of the state interfering in church affairs. It really galvanized this movement and the argument that they've long made that really, that separation of church and state was always really only intended to keep the state out of church.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
So how is this brand of white evangelical Christianity influencing politics? What exactly is happening here?
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Odette Youssef
You know, there has been this alignment of this administration with a particular component of the, you know, mostly of the evangelical movement that sees America as deeply sinful in this moment, and deeply sinful because of policies that exist. You know, access to abortion, LGBTQ rights, limits on prayers in school. I think it was very visible on January 6th. Right. You'll remember from images that day, there were certain symbols, some iconography that day, including crosses, including what's called the appeal to heaven flag. This is a white flag with the image of a green tree on it. And it has become one of the symbols that you'll frequently see at Christian nationalist type gatherings. And I actually saw this, Danielle, like about a year ago in the run up to the election, I went to D.C. where there were a couple of large gatherings put on either as worship rallies or Christian concerts from people that sort of run within these particular circles. And the alignment, the overlap between politics and their religious faith was 100%. I really wanted to do a gut check of, you know, what my impression was of this memorial service. So I called up Matthew Taylor. He's a scholar at the Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies in Baltimore. And I asked him, you know, how he interpreted what he saw.
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Jason DeRose
I would argue that the memorial service.
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Domenico Montanaro
Was a dramatic capstone on a long.
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Jason DeRose
Running merger between charismatic spirituality and MAGA politics.
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Odette Youssef
And so, you know, Taylor, who's been watching this merger between these two things for, you know, over a decade now, you know, he says this sort of alignment between the MAGA movement and. And this kind of charismatic spirituality, he calls it MAGA Christianity. And he says that this was really the high point of it.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
Fascinating. Well, I want to ask you guys, what has led us to this point where Christian nationalism is ascended the way it is. After all, plenty of white evangelicals love George W. Bush. So, Domenico, let me start with you. What's changed since then?
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Domenico Montanaro
Well, I mean, this is a very different type of Christianity, as Odette is noting here. And, yeah, we've seen religion and politics mixed, you know, quite a bit throughout history. I mean, you've seen people like the Reverend Billy Graham who was perpetually at president's side, whether they were Republicans or Democrats. Often presidents would say that he gave them a lot of sense of patience and themselves and to try to think about what the right thing would be to do, not necessarily what the Christian thing is to do. And there's a fine line because we're all infused with whatever our beliefs and upbringings are, and sometimes those can come through in our policies. But there has been a firm belief, as Odette talks about the separation of church and state, that religion should stay out of politics when it comes to overtly saying that Christianity or Islam or Judaism is the national religion, and the rules of that religion are then going to be administered to the rest of the country. That seems like something that a lot of the founding fathers have talked about, about not wanting to have. Of course, as Adet notes, some of the Christian national obviously disagree with that. And, you know, people could argue that what we're seeing is an outgrowth of that rise in white Christian evangelicalism. But the types of people who are in the president's ear now, and we see them at the White House, we see them on the campaign trail with them, they had been on the fringes of Christian politics, the idea that Christianity should be the religion at the exclusion of other religions. It's really interesting to see this group of people who believe this, who are now front and center with Trump. It really comes from this place where Trump politically needed to have white evangelical Christians on his side. But there are a lot of things to not necessarily like about Trump from a religious standpoint, whether his divorces or how, as Jason was noting in the earlier segment, how he views immigrants or any other list of number of things.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
Right. I remember when he first came on the scene, various evangelical Christians, when I was out reporting, would tell me they had misgivings about him. And those misgivings, I haven't heard about them in years.
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Domenico Montanaro
Right. And part of that is because he gets cover from these pastors and people within this movement who had previously been on the fringe, who he elevated, who he became sort of not obsessed with, but he really started to like how they were able to convince their flock, convince their followers. And he started to sort of learn a little bit of the way that this operates. And you see this through polling that white Christian evangelicals are the highest in supporting Trump almost more than any other group. And that's not everybody within white evangelical Christianity, obviously, is Christian nationalists, but they are certainly within that group and are firmly in Trump's camp.
- [19:24]
Danielle Kurtzleben
And now that he's had more than one term in office. Domenico Trump has delivered on a lot of policy goals that those evangelical Christians have had.
- [19:32]
Domenico Montanaro
Definitely. I mean, if you think about things like abortion rights, the Dobbs ruling of course, reversed Roe v. Wade. Think about things like religious liberty, quote unquote, in terms of, you know, speech and health care, greater access to government relief programs and resources, and even think about curriculum in schools and being able to get rid of what they find to be objectionable books like teaching about gender or LGBTQ issues.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
Odette, let's ask you what's changed?
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Odette Youssef
There's a lot that's changed. You know, I think the thing that's really important to understand about this experience, expression of Christian political activism versus, you know, what Domenico was referencing, is that, you know, previously, if we're talking about like the Moral Majority, you know, the, the activism was still situated within a democratic framework. You know, the thinking was if we just get more Christians to vote, or if Christians would just lobby their politicians or if Christians ran for office and achieved office, like that was the way to change things. But now this is a movement that is actually centered around a different theology than that. And it's that theology that is fundamentally anti democratic. And if you don't mind indulging me, I do want to get a little bit into the weeds on that.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
Let's hear it.
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Odette Youssef
So there's a concept known as Dominionist theology that was really born in the last century, mid century, and it started gaining uptake back in the 1980s and has really grown since then. And the gist of it is that, you know, they believe that Christians have a religious imperative to take dominion, to take authority over every aspect of society, not just in the U.S. actually, also in every country. We've seen in different sort of religious circles. This has been expressed in different ways. You may have heard, Danielle, about something called the Seven Mountains Mandate, which Kirk himself has spoken about. This is the idea that you can sort of break down society into seven different spheres of influence. Family, religion, education, government, media, entertainment, and business. And that Christians have a responsibility to gain authority over every one of those mountains and assert their interpretation of biblical government. So this is a top down approach to fundamentally reforming society. And that is not achieved through voting. It's not achieved through running for office necessarily. Like that is achieved with seizing power.
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Danielle Kurtzleben
I see. I want to bring this back to Charlie Kirk, where we started this episode and that display of Christianity and MAGA Republicanism that we saw this past weekend. I've been wondering how to think about this. Is it that white evangelical Christianity has changed the Republican Party? Is it that the MAGA movement in the GOP has changed evangelical Christianity? Or is it just that the two are becoming more fused? Because that kind of seems like what you're saying, Odette.
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Odette Youssef
I think it's kind of all of the above, frankly. You know, what Domenico was saying earlier about the evangelical leaders from the fringes sort of now being at the center? I mean, this is correct. We saw that in 2015, many evangelical leaders didn't want to endorse Trump initially. He was, however, given sort of the stamp of approval by a figure named C. Peter Wagner, who was a central figure in sort of assembling a network of what was called the New Apostolic Reformation. These are church leaders of, you know, really large churches across the US who are non denominational, mostly Pentecostal church figures who have really sort of galvanized their congregations and grown to be firmly behind President Trump. And so, you know, that has greatly influenced the imprint of that particular wing of evangelical Christianity on Republican politics. And at the same time, he has opened the door for them to be at the center of his sphere of influence. And so it's a reciprocal relationship, I would say.
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Domenico Montanaro
I was just gonna say they found use for each other. Right? I mean, this is a group that was seen as a fringe sect of Christianity that wasn't getting enough attention. And Trump himself was seen as kind of a fringe candidate who needed the stamp of approval from a Christian group to be able to win over an important piece of the Republican base. And they were able to marry each other and be able to really kind of elevate each other's platform and gain more significance and more prominence and more power based on that merger.
- [24:25]
Danielle Kurtzleben
All right, we're going to have to leave it there for today. Until tomorrow. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover the White House.
- [24:30]
Odette Youssef
I'm Odette Youssef. I cover domestic extremism.
- [24:32]
Domenico Montanaro
And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.
- [24:36]
Danielle Kurtzleben
And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.
- [24:46]
Odette Youssef
The Trump administration has canceled billions in federal research funding at major universities.
- [24:51]
Domenico Montanaro
We feel like collateral damage.
- [24:53]
Odette Youssef
They've also clamped down on visas for international students.
- [24:57]
Danielle Kurtzleben
Was the visa process hard?
- [24:58]
Domenico Montanaro
No.
- [24:59]
Danielle Kurtzleben
Don't ask me about was awful.
- [25:03]
Odette Youssef
Trump's war on higher ed. Listen now to the Sunday story on the up first podcast from npr.
- [25:10]
Danielle Kurtzleben
Here at Life Kit, we take advice seriously. We bring you evidence based recommendations. And to do that, we talk with researchers and experts on all sorts of topics because we have the same questions you do. Like what's really in my shampoo? Or should I let my kid quit soccer? Or what should I do with my savings in uncertain economic times? You can listen to NPR's Life Kit in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.