MAGA Turns On Trump Over Handling Of Jeffrey Epstein Files

Summary

Summary of "MAGA Turns On Trump Over Handling Of Jeffrey Epstein Files"

Podcast: The NPR Politics Podcast
Host: NPR
Episode Title: MAGA Turns On Trump Over Handling Of Jeffrey Epstein Files
Release Date: July 15, 2025

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Introduction

In the July 15, 2025 episode of The NPR Politics Podcast, hosts Tamara Keith, Stephen Fowler, and Domenico Montanaro delve into the escalating tensions within the MAGA movement concerning former President Donald Trump's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files. The discussion highlights how internal conflicts are emerging among Trump’s staunch supporters, challenging the unity traditionally seen within the MAGA base.

Background on Jeffrey Epstein

Tamara Keith sets the stage by revisiting who Jeffrey Epstein was and why his case remains a focal point for conspiracy theories. [01:17] Epstein, a registered sex offender, died by suicide in prison in 2019 while awaiting trial on sex trafficking charges. His associations with powerful individuals across various spectrums have fueled numerous conspiracy theories, including claims that Epstein was murdered or that his "black book" exposed high-profile clients involved in unspeakable activities.

Trump’s Involvement and Conspiracy Theories

Stephen Fowler elaborates on Epstein's role in shaping Trump’s second campaign, stating, "Epstein and the conspiracies around somebody being in a position of power and using it to hide unspeakable things was kind of part of the rallying cry and part of the DNA of Trump 2.0's call to dismantle the deep state." Trump himself had suggested the possible release of Epstein files during his campaign, promising transparency that gave his supporters hope for uncovering hidden truths.

Administration's Actions and Responses

Domenico Montanaro discusses how Trump and his administration members, such as Dan Bongino and Pam Bondi, amplified interest in the Epstein conspiracy both before and during Trump's presidency. Bongino, now the deputy FBI director, frequently discussed the Epstein files on his podcast, reinforcing the narrative of a deep state conspiracy. However, efforts to release the files have led to significant backlash within the MAGA base when the Department of Justice and FBI stated there are no Epstein client lists and confirmed Epstein's suicide. For instance, Pam Bondi’s statement at [04:49] about reviewing JFK and MLK files as directed by Trump was later retracted, causing further friction.

MAGA Base's Reaction and Internal Divisions

As tensions rose, MAGA influencers like Pam Bondi, Dan Bongino, and FBI Director Cash Patel faced criticism from within their own ranks. Stephen Fowler notes, "There have been a lot of things about Trump's return to Washington that have been a little bit like the dog catching the mailman." This metaphor underscores the unexpected backlash Trump is receiving from his supporters regarding the Epstein files.

The situation reached a tipping point when President Trump publicly dismissed the Epstein controversy, urging his supporters to move past it. At [07:08], Tamara Keith highlights Trump’s call on Truth Social for his followers to stop focusing on Epstein: "Don't waste time and energy on Jeffrey Epstein." This has led to divisions, with some influencers like Charlie Kirk initially emphasizing the issue but later aligning with Trump’s stance to maintain favor and support, as mentioned by Domenico Montanaro.

Political Implications

The hosts explore the broader political ramifications of this internal conflict. Domenico Montanaro posits that the struggle within the MAGA movement showcases a lack of emerging leaders who can sustain the movement's momentum without Trump. [14:00] He states, "I think it's going to be a big test in next year's midterm elections to see if Republicans can be able to do well, even though Trump is not going to be on the ballot and he's not running in 2028." This scenario presents a critical juncture for the Republican Party as it questions whether the MAGA movement can maintain its influence without Trump's direct leadership.

Conclusions

The episode concludes by emphasizing the significance of the Epstein files controversy in revealing fissures within the MAGA base. The inability of Trump and his close allies to effectively manage and quell the internal disputes signifies potential vulnerabilities for the Republican Party in future elections. As the movement grapples with these challenges, the episode underscores the evolving dynamics and the critical need for new leadership to navigate these internal conflicts.

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Notable Quotes:

• Stephen Fowler ([02:37]): "He gave his supporters hope that the truth would come out if he was elected."

• Domenico Montanaro ([03:32]): "As we know, Trump was asked about it and talked about it in that interview, giving hope to his, his supporters that he would release these files."

• Tamara Keith ([07:37]): "This is something that I think is a little bit different than the wide latitude Trump's base has given on a lot of other issues over the years."

• Domenico Montanaro ([11:34]): "I'm going to trust my friends, Cash Patel, Dan Bongino, my friend Pam Bondi, all these guys, I'm going to Todd Blanche. I'm going to trust them to solve it."

• Domenico Montanaro ([14:00]): "I think it's going to be a big test in next year's midterm elections to see if Republicans can be able to do well, even though Trump is not going to be on the ballot and he's not running in 2028."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a clear understanding of the internal conflicts within the MAGA movement related to Donald Trump's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files.

Transcript

[Tamara Keith]

The House of Representatives has approved a White House request to claw back two years of previously approved funding for public media. The rescissions package now moves on to the Senate. This move poses a serious threat to local stations and public media as we know it. Please take a stand for public media [e-mail] thank you. Hi, this is Katherine coming to you from the Detroit airport where I am treating myself after after having taken and passed the National Social Work Board exam this morning. Congratulations. This podcast was recorded at 1:21pm on Tuesday, July 15, 2025. Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but I will still be celebrating being one step closer to being a fully licensed clinical social worker. Cheers. Congratulations. Another person out there to make the world a better place, which is a very good thing.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Definitely.

[Tamara Keith]

Hey, there. It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.

[Stephen Fowler]

I'm Stephen Fowler. I cover politics.

[Domenico Montanaro]

And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.

[Tamara Keith]

Today on the show, we're talking about the backlash President Trump has gotten recently over the FBI's investigation into disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein died by suicide in prison in 2019. Stephen, let's back up for a moment and talk about who he was. Who was Jeffrey Epstein and why has he become a focal point of so many conspiracy theories?

[Stephen Fowler]

He was a registered sex offender. He died by suicide while awaiting trial on charges of sex trafficking. He had a lot of associations with a lot of powerful people across the political and ideological spectrum. And after he died, there were a lot of conspiracies that Epstein didn't actually die by suicide, that somebody murdered him, or that there was a black book, so to speak, of all of the clients that he took to his island and that did nasty, horrible, unspeakable things. And so we got to a point in Trump's second campaign where Epstein and the conspiracies around somebody being in a position of power and using it to hide unspeakable things was, was kind of part of the rallying cry and part of the DNA of Trump 2.0's call to dismantle the deep state. And Trump himself said on the campaign trail that he would probably release the Epstein files, as they're known.

[Tamara Keith]

He, he definitely gave his supporters hope that the truth would come out if he was elected. Domenico, how did Trump and others in his administration fuel interest in this conspiracy both before he took office and, frankly, once they were in office as well?

[Domenico Montanaro]

During the campaign, it was talked a lot about on the right you know, Dan Bongino, who's now the deputy FBI director, was really known as a podcaster. He's a former Secret Service agent, very pro Trump. And he talked a lot about the Epstein files on his podcast. You know, as we know, Trump was asked about it and talked about it in that interview, giving hope to his, his supporters that he would release these files. And it all has roots in this idea going back to QAnon, this other conspiracy theory that cropped up on the right, that there were people deep in the government running child pedophile rings.

[Tamara Keith]

That's sort of the stew in which all of these people then came into the government and attempted to explain that there was nothing to see here. So, Stephen, can you just catch us up on why this has become such a big deal right now in MAGA world?

[Stephen Fowler]

Yeah. So, Tam, there have been a lot of things about Trump's return to Washington that have been a little bit like the dog catching the mailman. And this is one of the more prominent ones here because in the last few months you've had Attorney General Pam Bondi and Dan Bongino and then Cash Patel, the FBI director, all who have had various stages of conversations about revealing the truth of the Epstein files, kind of step on a bunch of rakes of their own creating. Pam Bondi, for example, held an event with right wing influencers at the White House where they were handed binders that said Epstein files part one. And the part one is just a lot of redacted documents that were mostly already public. And you have her speaking on a Fox News interview where she was asked about the Department of Justice maybe releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein clients. And they're like, is this going to happen, happen?

[Tamara Keith]

It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing that. I'm reviewing JFK files, MLK files. That's all in the process of being reviewed because that was done at the directive of the President.

[Stephen Fowler]

And that's something that she had to walk back later, especially when the FBI and the DOJ released a two page memo saying there are no Epstein files client list and Jeffrey Epstein did in fact kill himself. And you know, it's not just Bondi that took a lot of heat for this. Patel and Bongino had to do this sit down, joint interview on Sunday morning Futures with Maria Bartiromo on Fox Business Network back in May to tamp down a lot of attacks that they were getting from the MAGA base for this. You said Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide.

[Tamara Keith]

People don't believe it.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Well, I mean, listen, they have a right to their opinion.

[Stephen Fowler]

But as someone who has worked as.

[Domenico Montanaro]

A public defender, as a prosecutor, who's been in that prison system, who's been.

[Stephen Fowler]

In the Metropolitan Detention center, who's been in segregated housing, you know a suicide.

[Domenico Montanaro]

When you see one, and that's what that was.

[Stephen Fowler]

He killed himself. Again, you want me to. I've seen the whole file. He killed himself. So, Tam, there's this central tenet of Trumpism right now where he was telling people, and his allies have been telling people that there's this shadowy cabal of figures protecting pedophiles and unsavory people. They run the government and they hinder Trump's policy, and that they're gonna root them all out, and that there's people who use their power to cover up misconduct and tell the public not to worry. Now you have Trump administration officials and President Trump using their power to tell the public not to worry about something that they previously said was a pretty big deal. So that's a little bit of the abbreviated long and short of this situation.

[Tamara Keith]

And there was a lot of BLOWBack on that DOJ FBI report from within Trump's base. So President Trump ended up getting asked about it in his Cabinet meeting last week, and President Trump was kind of like, make this go away.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? This guy's been talked about for years. You're asking. We have Texas. We have this.

[Stephen Fowler]

We have all of the things.

[Domenico Montanaro]

And are people still talking about this guy, this creep? That is unbelievable.

[Tamara Keith]

Over the weekend, after the controversy blew up even more on Friday night into Saturday, President Trump went on Truth Social, and he called for his supporters to not waste time and energy on Jeffrey Epstein. So does it seem like Trump supporters have accepted his calls to let it go or not really.

[Stephen Fowler]

This is something that I think is a little bit different than the wide latitude Trump's base has given on a lot of other issues over the years that he has changed his mind on or said something that's different from the typical conservative stance.

[Domenico Montanaro]

I do think, though, that it's really something that people in that base, in this sort of influencer sphere of the MAGA movement, are most obsessed with. They know it's something that's driven a lot of the numbers in their podcasts. Conspiracy has driven a lot of what the right has, you know, been obsessed with over the last decade as Trump has come up. But what we have seen is this sort of threading of the needle that some of them are trying to do to not necessarily blame Trump, but blame people in his administration much more. So, for example, someone like Pam Bondi. So we've seen some of that where they're trying to thread this needle and point the finger at Bondi and allay some of the blame from Trump. But, you know, clearly Trump doesn't want to be having to talk about this anymore with all the other things that are going on in the world.

[Tamara Keith]

All right, we're going to take a quick break and we will have more on the political implications of this in a moment.

[Stephen Fowler]

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[Domenico Montanaro]

We're getting into the nitty gritty of.

[Stephen Fowler]

What government does with things like trade.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Taxes, immigration and health care. So politics and economics, which are taught separately, they shouldn't be separated at all. I think you have to understand one to really appreciate the other. So what is the right amount of.

[Stephen Fowler]

Government in our lives?

[Domenico Montanaro]

Tune into Planet Money Summer School from npr. Wherever you get your podcasts, you know those things you shout at the radio or maybe even at this very NPR podcast. On NPR's Wait, Wait, don't tell me we actually say those things on the radio and on the podcast. We're rude across all media. We think the news can take it. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, don't tell me. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tamara Keith]

And we're back. And today Democrats in the House of Representatives are trying to get a vote on on a bill that would require the preservation and release of the Epstein files. So, Domenico, what is up with this?

[Domenico Montanaro]

Well, clearly Democrats want to be able to keep this in the news and troll Republicans, troll the president in particular, and bring up the fact that President Trump had an association with Jeffrey Epstein himself. There have been these videos and pictures of them partying together. That's all that we have ever seen of that. There's no evidence that he's tied to something grander or something like that. But Democrats are perfect Publicly happy to have this continue to be front and center, especially because it's been something that's been dividing the MAGA movement.

[Tamara Keith]

Yeah. And I. I do want to talk a little bit more about something that Steven mentioned before, which is the evolution, the movement from absolute outrage over the weekend to now. The. The outrage is becoming tamed among the MAGA influencer crowd. People like Charlie Kirk, who over the weekend was saying this was a really big deal and now is saying something more like this.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Everyone knows my opinion about the Epstein thing, the messaging fumble. I would love to see the DOJ move to unseal the grand jury testimony.

[Stephen Fowler]

I think that would be a big win.

[Domenico Montanaro]

And I'm going to trust my friends, Cash Patel, Dan Bongino, my friend Pam Bondi, all these guys, I'm going to Todd Blanche. I'm going to trust them to solve it. Balls in their court.

[Stephen Fowler]

I think that there was plenty of, let's say, speeches that were directed towards this topic this last weekend, so we.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Don'T need to spend our valuable time on this program re litigating it. And that, of course, came though after Trump called him. And you know, clearly this is. Trump is the center of the universe of the MAGA movement. Charlie Kirk is somebody who's had deep ties to the Trump family. He was Don Jr. S assistant during the first Trump campaign. He's somebody who's benefited financially from the Trump Republican National Committee, which has helped funnel millions of dollars to his group, Turning Point usa, to try to get turnout, to try to turn out voters. So, you know, there are direct ties that a lot of these folks have to Trump, that they need to stay in his good graces. And Trump is clearly making a lobbying effort to get these influencers to kind of back down off of this because Kirk had said something very different. You know, a little bit earlier in talking Megyn Kelly, the former Fox News host, who was essentially saying that she felt it was Pam Bondi's fault, and the entire crowd saying that they believed more Dan Bongino in this than Pam Bondi. So really kind of creating this internal conflict, setting the two of them up as these two characters and making Bondi be the fall person. But clearly here, Kirk, after talking to Trump, says he's gonna let it go.

[Stephen Fowler]

And this comes after Turning Point had an event in Florida over the weekend. It's the Student Action Summit that Domenico was talking about. Even in those speeches, there was a difference between the Capital G government and the head of said government, Donald Trump. And so it's a situation right now where even when Trump is saying something that they don't agree with, it's not Trump saying that, it's insert person here or insert institution here or insert deep states or Democrats made me do it here, rather than occasionally saying, hey, you know what, Donald Trump maybe not right on this one.

[Tamara Keith]

Yeah. Or as they were saying over the weekend, Donald Trump probably just doesn't realize how important this is to his base. This is the NPR Politics podcast, of course. So if you could, can you walk us through what you think the political implications might be for President Trump, his base and for Republicans from this whole thing.

[Domenico Montanaro]

You know, in 2018 and 2022, when Trump wasn't on the ballot, Republicans struggled in the midterms. And I think it's always been a question who would be the person, is there somebody who could pick up the flame, who could carry the torch forward of the MAGA movement to be as central as someone like Trump? Because so far it doesn't appear to be that there's anybody in particular who can really do that. And I think it's going to be a big test in next year's midterm elections to see if Republicans can, you know, be able to do well, even though Trump is not going to be on the ballot and he's not running in 2028.

[Tamara Keith]

All right. Well, we are going to get into more of that later. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.

[Stephen Fowler]

I'm Stephen Fowler. I cover politics.

[Domenico Montanaro]

And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.

[Tamara Keith]

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.

[Stephen Fowler]

You're listening to NPR because you're curious. You want to know what the world is like beyond the surface. NPR feeds that curiosity with stories from real people, with real experiences and all the perspectives that come with them. It's our right to be curious and our prerogative to listen. So keep your curiosity alive. Hear the bigger picture every day on npr.

[Domenico Montanaro]

At Planet Money, we know that economic jargon can sometimes feel like speaking another language.

[Stephen Fowler]

Yeah, like arbitrage, Alpha, otarchy. That's just what's in the news these days. There's also absolute advantage, aggregate demand, aggregate supply.

[Tamara Keith]

And this is just the A's.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Oh, animal spirits.

[Tamara Keith]

That's a pretty good one. Planet Money from npr, we help you translate the economy so you can understand the world. Wherever you get your podcasts. There have been many Supermans, super men. And now, after much anticipation, there is another. And the new Superman movie is pretty great. And it's bringing exactly what we are looking for. Hope we'll tell you why on Pop Culture Happy Hour. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.