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- [00:00]
Catherine Marr
When you walk into NPR headquarters, one of the first things you see is a big map of the country covered with little blue dots. Each dot represents a local public radio station. That's the NPR Network. I'm Catherine Marr, CEO of npr. With federal funding for public media eliminated, your network is under serious threat. Help us plan for the road ahead@donate.NPR.org.
- [00:25]
Yuki
Hi, this is Yuki from Santa Fe, New Mexico, where my 19 year old son Ren just found out that he was accepted at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. So after living in Tanzania for two years attending the United World College East Africa, he will head off again for more education and adventure abroad. This podcast was recorded at 12:54pm on.
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Deepa Shivaram
Wednesday, July 30, 2025.
- [00:54]
Yuki
Things may have changed by the time you listen to this podcast, but I'll hopefully be able to control my motherly blubbering when my son leaves for university. Okay, here's the show.
- [01:09]
Deepa Shivaram
Franco has some Scotland rags for you.
- [01:12]
Frank Ordonez
Congrats. Congrats to Wren. I was just there. It is gorgeous. And Mama Yuki will have a great time. Going to visit.
- [01:18]
Deepa Shivaram
There you go. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover the White House.
- [01:23]
Frank Ordonez
I'm Frank Gordonez. I also cover the White House.
- [01:25]
Deepa Shivaram
And joining us today is NPR Middle east correspondent Aya Bachrawy. Welcome to the Politics podcast. Aya.
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Aya Batrawi
Hi. Hi.
- [01:31]
Deepa Shivaram
All right, so today on the show, we're talking about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. We have all seen horrific pictures of people struggling to get food, access to aid in Gaza. And let's just start there. I mean, why has it been so difficult to get food and aid to people who are in the Gaza Strip?
- [01:52]
Aya Batrawi
It really comes down to political will. I mean, there are, you know, tons of food aid waiting just across the border from Gaza. This is not a place that is remote, difficult to get to. It has borders with Egypt, borders with Israel, and borders with the Mediterranean Sea. There's tons of food aid sitting in warehouses in Jordan and in Egypt just across the border waiting to get into Gaza. Now, you know, we did see for two months earlier this year when there was a ceasefire that aid is able to flow into Gaza pretty quickly and easily. But what we've seen for two months after that ceasefire was a total and complete blockade by Israel, a political decision to pressure Hamas, they said in order to try to get them to agree to their terms of a ceasefire, a temporary deal, and nothing entered Gaza. And, you know, aid groups and countries around the world describe this as collective Punishment. So what we're seeing now on the ground has been a long time coming. And even though Israel did slightly ease some of those restrictions by allowing in some aid, you know, the United nations describes this as a trickle and they say an ocean is needed.
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Deepa Shivaram
And talk to me a little bit about what the US Role has been here.
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Aya Batrawi
This idea of restricting aid into Gaza has been the case since the October 7th attack by Hamas on Israel that killed 1200 people there and you know, sparked this current round of the conflict. And you know, it was the first words I think that we heard from the Defense minister saying no food, no fuel, you know, all of this would be cut off to Gaza. So there have been restrictions since the beginning and those continued under Biden, but they've really ramped up under Trump since the ceasefire broke down.
- [03:21]
Deepa Shivaram
And Aya, I mean, there's this organization called the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. What role have they been playing here and are their efforts working?
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Aya Batrawi
So this speaks again to the US Role in all of this. This is an American and Israeli backed organization that is its CEO or its chairman. The guy who runs it is an American evangelical pastor with close ties to President Trump. And it is manned by armed American contractors. This organization has four distribution sites in Gaza compared to the United nations which had 400 distribution sites basically meeting people where they are. These four sites, they're not always operational. Every day they operate at erratic hours. And so thousands of people are really unable to reach these sites. And they're all in military red zones where Israel has told Palestinians not to be. And so you're finding hundreds of people have been killed trying to reach these sites that are supposed to be providing food aid as the main sort of replacement for the United nations on the ground. And it's just not working. Food isn't reaching people.
- [04:23]
Deepa Shivaram
Yeah. So efforts there, even if there is food, it's hard to get to. And Franco, I want to bring you in here because this is not a new situation. This was happening under the Biden administration. Like a mentioned remind us what some of the efforts were under President Biden to also bring more aid into Gaza and whether that worked.
- [04:41]
Frank Ordonez
Yeah, I mean it is a long time effort. I mean former President Biden made many efforts including remember that pier that they constructed with the idea that it would bring food but had limited success. I mean there have been so many efforts to do this, but it's just been so difficult and kind of a, was kind of, kind of describing the situation and the challenge is that Israel has put up so many roadblocks it did with Biden and it's doing it now with Trump, but perhaps in an even higher and more strategic level. And Trump has been very resistant to push back against Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu. And Biden was also. But particularly Trump and his close relationship with Israel. Netanyahu has been very resistant to push and pressure Israel in almost any way.
- [05:32]
Deepa Shivaram
Hey, I want to ask you one other question. I mean, there's a UN backed panel that has said a famine is unfolding in Gaza right now. And I want to ask what makes the famine there different from other famines around the world? Why is this different?
- [05:45]
Aya Batrawi
This UN backed group of independent experts who say that there is now a famine unfolding in Gaza. They gave this warning back in May and they said this would happen if conditions on the ground didn't change. And they didn't change enough. And so now we are seeing everybody across the Gaza Strip unable to find food. That includes our own producer in Gaza, other journalists, that includes doctors and patients at hospitals. That includes aid workers. There are no privileged Palestinians in Gaza who are able to find more food than others. Now there may be some people who have the ability to still get cash, but the markets are so bare. You know, our producer Anas Baba was telling me that he was trying to just find what he could in the markets yesterday and he found some stolen apples. So apples that had been brought in and were stolen off of these trucks for a hundred and $80 for two pounds. That is just an. Yeah, that's just something people in Gaza cannot afford. And the World Food Program is the main independent international aid organization that is bringing food into Gaza outside of that, you know, Gaza Humanitarian Foundation Mechanism and the director of emergencies there, Rick Ross yesterday really laid out that they need more aid. He says that their bare minimum ask is 100 trucks a day. And he says they're only getting about half of that cleared by Israel. Have a listen to what he said.
- [07:03]
Rick Ross
We need significant surge of humanitarian supplies to alleviate the suffering right now. It cannot simply be symbolic measures that may look good or make for good press, but we need sustained effort at scale for weeks at a time.
- [07:21]
Aya Batrawi
Yeah. So this is what we've been hearing over and over again from UN agencies that just much more food needs to flood into Gaza So that those 50 trucks or whatever when they enter aren't immediately looted either by armed gangs or by just people who are so desperate and hungry. Because none of the aid that has come in for the United Nations, UNICEF from the Egyptians or others that have come in since Sunday when there's been an ease of restrictions, has actually made it to any warehouses for distribution.
- [07:47]
Deepa Shivaram
Ea, you mentioned some of the mounting global criticism. I'm curious, how has Israel responded to that?
- [07:53]
Aya Batrawi
Well, Israel's dug in its heels. You know, Prime Minister Netanyahu and members of, you know, the military who are speaking to the press deny that there is starvation. They say there is no starvation in Gaza. Now, we did see a slave slight shift in tone yesterday from Prime Minister Netanyahu saying that there is suffering in Gaza, but he blames it entirely on Hamas. He says Hamas is stealing the aid, although United nations reports have said, and aid groups have told us that this is not the case, that the widespread looting is actually by armed gangs who Israel has openly admitted to backing some of them to undermine Hamas. So that's one thing. But Israel also says that the UN Is to blame, that they're not doing their job picking up that aid. But as you just heard from Rick Ross there, they want to see assurances and they want to see more aid coming in so that they can safely deliver that aid to warehouses and then to people.
- [08:41]
Deepa Shivaram
Franco, I mean, Netanyahu is saying one thing. The president has also started to weigh in on this as well. You were traveling with him recently in Scotland. What did you hear from President Trump?
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Frank Ordonez
Yeah, I mean, his language that did absolutely shift during the trip and he acknowledged that kids were hungry and that there was, quote, real starvation happening in Gaza. And that was significant because it was a break from Netanyahu who had earlier this week been saying that kids were not starving. So it was very significant that Trump's doing this. And he talked a bit about it on the way back from Scotland on Air Force One. Here it is. I think everybody, unless they're pretty cold.
- [09:21]
Aya Batrawi
Hearted or worse than that, nuts.
- [09:25]
Rick Ross
There's nothing you can say other than.
- [09:27]
Frank Ordonez
It'S terrible when you see the kids.
- [09:29]
Rick Ross
And those are kids, you know, whether.
- [09:30]
Frank Ordonez
They talk starvation or not, those are.
- [09:33]
Rick Ross
Kids that are starving.
- [09:36]
Frank Ordonez
Now, Trump would not go so far, though, to, you know, put much responsibility on Israel. He would not criticize Netanyahu for his role and Israel's role for blocking aid from getting into Gaza. Instead, he's putting all the blame on Hamas for stealing the food.
- [09:54]
Deepa Shivaram
Franco, at this point, is there any sign that the US Will follow up those words with any kind of actions or policy changes?
- [10:01]
Frank Ordonez
Trump did say that he is going to work with European allies to get more food to Gaza. He actually announced a new plan to open up food centers where people in Gaza could get to without being blocked by fences and blocked by other barriers at the same time. He also said that Israel is going to manage these food centers, and that is very questionable considering all the things that we have been talking about with EA and the restrictions that Israel has put on to Gaza.
- [10:36]
Deepa Shivaram
All right. We are going to talk more about that after the break. And we'll be back in a moment.
- [10:41]
Catherine Marr
Hi, it's Catherine Marr, CEO of npr. Federal funding for public media has been eliminated. That means that the NPR network is moving forward in an uncharted future. But our commitment to you will never waver. Please give today to support the kind of journalism that democracy relies upon. Make your gift@donate.NPR.org thank you.
- [11:05]
Frank Ordonez
This summer on Planet Money Summer School, we're learning about political economy. We're getting into the nitty gritty of what government does with things like trade, taxes, immigration and healthcare. So politics and economics, which are taught.
- [11:17]
Aya Batrawi
Separately, they shouldn't be separated at all. I think you have to understand one.
- [11:20]
Frank Ordonez
To really appreciate the other. So what is the right amount of government in our lives? Tune into Planet Money Summer School from npr. Wherever you get your podcasts, you're listening.
- [11:30]
Rick Ross
To NPR because you're curious. You want to know what the world is like beyond the surface. NPR feeds that curiosity with stories from real people, with real experiences and all the perspectives that come with them. It's our right to be curious and our prerogative to listen. So keep your curiosity alive. Hear the bigger picture every day on npr.
- [11:54]
Deepa Shivaram
Hey, it's Deepa Shivaram. Are you that friend, the one who's constantly recommending podcast episodes to anyone who will Listen? Subscribe to NPR's pod club newsletter and nerd out with us. You'll get fresh podcast recommendations every week, handpicked by the people that live for this stuff. Subscribe@npr.org podclub. You can also find the link in the description for this episode. Okay, here's the show. And we're back. We just heard some comments that President Trump made this week. And Franco, you were talking about some of the shifts in the president's tone. I was wondering what political pressures might be behind that.
- [12:31]
Frank Ordonez
Yeah, I mean, Trump says he's going to work with European allies to get more food to Gaza. And that has a lot to do with kind of global pressures. European leaders are putting more pressure European citizens are putting more pressure on their leaders to do it. It's also a greater in the United States, there's a new Gallup poll that just came out that shows that more Americans are less supportive of Israel's military actions in Gaza and I think particularly the European pressure. Now, for example, Keir Starmer, the prime minister of the UK Just announced that he is going to recognize a Palestinian state if there is no ceasefire or if there's not significant progress on getting aid to Gaza, which follows France, which follows as France. So these are significant steps. I think those kind of things is one of the reasons why you're hearing more from Trump. At the same time, Trump is not willing to go that far. When he was asked about Keir Starmer's comments on Air Force One, he said he was not going to play that game. And he said doing that would essentially reward Hamas, and he said he would not go that far.
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Deepa Shivaram
There are some potential fissures happening amongst the Republicans who support Trump, too. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene, congresswoman from Georgia, made some comments earlier this week and called what's happening in Gaza a genocide. How is that potentially factoring into Trump's rhetoric?
- [14:01]
Frank Ordonez
I mean, I do think it's another example of why Trump is kind of walking this tightrope and being so careful with every single measure. Because among some Republicans, they are continuing to support Israel and want more action. But then on other, as you point out, the Marjorie Taylor Greens, the Steve Bannon, his former chief advisor, they are being more critical of Israel and pushing the United States not to get more involved. They think it is not in the US Interest. So it is kind of a balancing act. At the same time, I don't necessarily see Trump shifting that much, considering among Republicans, there is still quite a bit of support for Israel. Yes, there are fewer Americans who support Israel's actions, but the number specifically among Republicans has remained pretty steady at around 70%. 70%. And I think until you see those kind of numbers change, I wouldn't anticipate a significant change.
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Aya Batrawi
For the first time in the war, two Israeli organizations also describe what's happening as a genocide. One of them is the group B'Tselem, and they called it our genocide. So that is a significant shift also happening in Israel. And there were also five university presidents, including Tel Aviv University, the Weizmann Institute, and Hebrew University. So major universities wrote an open letter to Netanyahu saying, as, as you know, people of the Holocaust, we cannot do this to the people in Gaza, and you must ease the suffering, end the famine, and condemn your own ministers who've been calling for the destruction of Gaza and for the displacement of its people from there. So we're even seeing kind of a shift in tone among the Israeli Public who are also, for the first time in the war, seeing on TV some of the images coming out of Gaza of the people there.
- [15:53]
Deepa Shivaram
Oh, wow. I wonder from both of you if you could answer this. I mean, we're coming up on two years almost of this war since the October 7th attack happened. @ this point, is there any kind of red line that Israel could cross where the US Might change their policy or might, you know, act differently here?
- [16:14]
Aya Batrawi
Well, first, of course, Israel vehemently denies that it is committing genocide in Gaza and, you know, says that its war is moral and just. But, you know, this question of red lines is one I've constantly been asking, too, throughout the war, because the death toll just from Israeli airstrikes, gunfire and attack has surpassed 60,000 people killed a third of them. So we're Talking about nearly 19,000 of them are children. And you also have these increasing number of deaths from malnutrition. So to put it into context, for the first six months of the year, there were 11 deaths recorded in Gaza from malnutrition. In July, we're already at more than 85 deaths from malnutrition.
- [16:53]
Frank Ordonez
It's hard to say what a red line would be that has to be crossed for the US to take more action. I think it more has to do with what is going to be the political atmosphere. Not the red line necessarily for the US but what is the red line for the American public. What is the red line for the global public that they will take more action. I think you are seeing that more now with the images that are coming out of Gaza and the push, obviously in the UK a red line was being pushed and it led for the prime minister to make this very strong statement of supporting a Palestinian state. Trump is not near that yet. But if the American public start kind of speaking out, if that number, as I said earlier, of Republicans starts to change and the voices of Marjorie Taylor Greene and Steve Bannon take a little more hold, maybe you could, but I'm not seeing that groundswell here in the United States, at least how you're seeing it in European and other parts of the world, where it could actually push Trump and the US Government to take more action. But that could absolutely change because the images coming out of Gaza are just incredibly horrible.
- [18:04]
Deepa Shivaram
All right, we're going to have to leave it there for today. Aya Batrawi, thank you so much for bringing your reporting to the podcast.
- [18:09]
Aya Batrawi
Thank you.
- [18:10]
Deepa Shivaram
I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover the White House.
- [18:12]
Frank Ordonez
And I'm Franco Ordonez. I also cover the White House.
- [18:14]
Deepa Shivaram
And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.
- [18:26]
Rick Ross
Federal funding for public media has been eliminated. That means decades of bipartisan support for public radio and television is ending. To be clear, NPR isn't going anywhere. But we do need your support. Please give today to help keep rigorous, independent and irreplaceable news coverage available to everybody free of charge. You can make your gift@donate.NPR.org and thank you. At Planet Money, we know that economic jargon can sometimes feel like speaking another language.
- [18:55]
Aya Batrawi
Yeah, like arbitrage, alpha, odarchy.
- [18:59]
Rick Ross
That's just what's in the news these days. There's also absolute advantage. Aggregate demand, aggregate supply.
- [19:05]
Aya Batrawi
And this is just the A's. Oh, animal spirits. That's a pretty good one. Planet Money from npr. We help you translate the economy so you can understand the world wherever you get your podcasts.
- [19:15]
Rick Ross
The Fantastic Four are back again in a new movie and it's an eye popping good time. We've seen the story before, but this time the vibe is different. It's brighter, set in a retro future with flying cars. Plus, it stars Pedro Pascal and works for casual viewers and nerds alike. We'll tell you why on Pop Culture Happy Hour. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.