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- [00:00]
Susan Davis
This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. Start selling with Shopify today. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Go to shopify.com NPR support for NPR.
- [00:16]
Jarl and Pamela Mone
And the following message come from Jarl and Pamela Mon, thanking the people who make public radio great every day and also those who listen.
- [00:25]
Susan Davis
A quick note before we start today's show. You may have heard that President Trump has issued an executive order seeking to block all federal funding to npr. This is the latest in a series of threats to media organizations across the country. Whatever changes this action brings, NPR's commitment to serving an engaged public will never change. Even as paywalls rise elsewhere, we offer this vital resource to everyone, regardless of their ability to pay. This is a pivotal moment. It's more important than ever that every supporter who can contribute comes together to pitch in as much as they are able. Support the news and program you and millions rely on by visiting donate.NPR.org and if you already support us via NPR or another means, thank you. Your support means so much to us. Now more than ever, you help make NPR shows freely available to everyone. We are proud to do this work for you and with you. Okay, here's the show. Hi, I'm Kristen. Hi, I'm Rachel. Hey, I'm Steven. I'm Mary Catherine.
- [01:33]
Ximena Bustillo
I'm Griffin. And I'm Amanda.
- [01:35]
Susan Davis
And we just won bar trivia again. This is Nick. Oh, Nick, the host. The only thing we're more competitive about than winning is learning. This podcast was recorded at 11:21am on Friday, May 9. Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but we'll continue to study our presidents and state capitals. Enjoy the show. Love a good bar trivia.
- [01:58]
Tamara Keith
Yeah, congratulations, guys. I hope that we have imparted something that helped you win, but I kind of doubt it.
- [02:05]
Susan Davis
Hey there. It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.
- [02:08]
Ximena Bustillo
I'm Ximena Bustillo, and I cover immigration policy.
- [02:10]
Tamara Keith
And I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.
- [02:13]
Susan Davis
And it's time for our Friday roundup. And we're going to start by unpacking some of the developments this week on immigration, including news the U.S. is planning to deport some migrants to Libya, among other places. Jimena, explain this new third country policy.
- [02:27]
Ximena Bustillo
Right. So the idea of a third country is that you already have migrants here in the United States. You're trying to deport them back home, wherever it is that they're originally from. But for some reason the United States can't. There are several countries that have said that they won't take their people back. There are also countries that have limits on how many flights they'll take in or how many people they'll take in. So then that means those people, if the United States wants to remove them, they need to go to a third country. And so we've seen the Trump administration really utilize this in brokering deals with various countries. Of course, El Salvador is the biggest example of this. That 6 million doll deal to send people there. We saw this earlier in the administration with Panama as well. Mexico has been a third country, but now we're really seeing this spread across to other continents beyond Central and South America. You know, Libya being the latest, Olivia.
- [03:19]
Susan Davis
To me is striking because I also think of sending people to places or countries that are not exactly known for their own stable governments or ability to handle human rights issues or anything that might go along with taking in new.
- [03:32]
Tamara Keith
Groups of people or even necessarily a shared language.
- [03:36]
Ximena Bustillo
Right. So there were lawyers that filed a lawsuit in Massachusetts to stop the potential flights to Libya. They said that their clients were Vietnamese and Filipino and those are obviously people who might not normally go through Libya for any sort of migratory pattern. And Libya is notoriously known for, you know, having a poor human rights record, particularly when it comes to migrants who are trying to pass through it to get to European countries, for example.
- [04:03]
Susan Davis
Tim, how is the White House justifying, Obviously they've been focused on these deportation flights, but sending people to these new countries?
- [04:10]
Tamara Keith
Well, President Trump was asked about that this week and he said, ask dhs. So that's to say that the President is not defending this or otherwise advocating for it in any sort of full throated way. More broadly, the administration has made it very clear that they want to get people out of the United States who don't belong here.
- [04:36]
Susan Davis
Any means necessary.
- [04:37]
Tamara Keith
By any means necessary. And Secretary of State Marco Rubio has said that, you know, when you're dealing with criminals and people who are dangerous, we want them as far away from America as possible. Well, Libya is pretty far away, but it is remarkable to me that the President just punted on it.
- [04:55]
Ximena Bustillo
And he did say, ask dhs. And I'm a DHS reporter, so I did ask dhs.
- [05:00]
Susan Davis
And they were like, ask the White House.
- [05:01]
Ximena Bustillo
I heard nothing back, emailed a few times, didn't hear any response to these plans. And so, you know, I think that there are moments in which we are kind of seeing the different parts of the executive Branch trying to play a little bit of a hot potato with these different plans.
- [05:16]
Susan Davis
Ximena, do you know if the end goal, if say they take a group of migrants to Libya is the end goal to ultimately get them back to their home countries, or does the US Just get them to Libya and sort of wipe their hands of it?
- [05:27]
Ximena Bustillo
I think they kind of get them to Libya and then wipe their hands of it. You know, I think we've definitely seen that attitude with folks who are sent to El Salvador, for example. Now they're in the hands of another nation. And I think it would be logistically really difficult for any agency to send dozens of people, hundreds of people, thousands of people around the world, and then somehow keep track of them. The goal is removal from US Borders. And once that's accomplished, all bets are off.
- [05:58]
Susan Davis
I don't have the word for it, and I don't know what the word should be, but these are one of those moments where I feel like our existing terms don't always describe the moment because to me, deportation doesn't seem to capture what this is. By sending a migrant to a country that's not their home country, you know, you're starting to. Removal. Yeah. You're hearing this word more. Maybe removal is the right way to put it because deportation is legal process, all these things. And we're in this sort of gray area now.
- [06:23]
Tamara Keith
Yeah. And I think that part of what's going on here is that the White House is looking for a deterrent effect. We've seen this in the way they talk about immigration, the way they talk about deportation, the dangers to the people who are here now, that we will find you, we will scare. They want people to be afraid. They want people to be so afraid that they will self deport or not come or even try to come here in the first place, which obviously border crossings are way down. The deterrent effect is working, but the idea of sending people to a very unstable country all the way across the world, well, that's one heck of a deterrent.
- [06:57]
Susan Davis
Ximena. There's also news that the administration is trying to speed up. People, quote, unquote, self deporting. What are they doing there?
- [07:03]
Ximena Bustillo
Right. So this week the administration announced that they will give a $1,000 reward to anyone that announces on the CBP Home app that they are going to, quote, unquote, self deport and then actually does. So once they get to their home country, they will allegedly get this $1,000. DHS didn't respond to my questions about, you know, how they're going to get the money? How are we sending this money to them? How can they track, you know, whether or not people do this? And then also the most important thing is they say once people return, they can come back the legal way. But, you know, if you mark that you've been in the country without authorization, that is a stain on your immigration record. And it be over a decade before you're even allowed to try and come back into the United States. And so there really is not a lot of clarity into the true incentive to believe or trust what the administration is doing. But on the other hand, the administration isn't necessarily worried about that. They want the stick to be harder than the carrot here. So the stick is if you don't leave, we will find you, we will arrest you, we will detain you, we might deport you to another country altogether. We might throw you into Guantanamo, a naval base, might send you to El Salvador. And so they're banking that the fear of that encounter with ice, that potentially really bad moment that could be scarring for you, your children, your family, and then potentially be worse, you might not even get home, is what allows people to ultimately leave. Now, tracking self deportation is really hard. There are very few ways to actually guarantee that someone has left the country versus moved to a different part of this very vast nation. And, you know, when you kind of think about the estimates of people who are in the country without authorization, you know, that's in the millions. You know, 11 million people is the most credible recent statistic. You know, they say that about 7,000 people have signed up on the app. That's a drop in the bucket.
- [09:04]
Susan Davis
Yeah. All right. Jimena, thank you so much for your reporting.
- [09:06]
Ximena Bustillo
Thank you.
- [09:07]
Susan Davis
We're going to take a quick break. More when we get back.
- [09:10]
Jarl and Pamela Mone
This message comes from Saatva, the first company to sell luxury mattresses online without the hassle or expense of tradition traditional mattress stores. So Satva customers have always paid about 50% less than retail. Visit swatva.com NPR today, where NPR listeners save an additional $200.
- [09:33]
Will Stone
When Malcolm Gladwell presented NPR's Throughline podcast with a Peabody Award, he praised it for its historical and moral clarity. On Throughline, we take you back in time to the origins of what's in the news, like like presidential power, aging and evangelicalism. Time travel with us every week on the Throughline podcast from npr.
- [09:57]
Susan Davis
On the Indicator from Planet Money podcast.
- [09:59]
Tamara Keith
We're here to help you make sense.
- [10:01]
Susan Davis
Of the economic news from Trump's tariffs. It's called in Game Theory, a trigger.
- [10:06]
Jarl and Pamela Mone
Strategy or sometimes called grim trigger, which.
- [10:09]
Susan Davis
Sort of has a cowboy esque ring to it to what exactly a sovereign wealth fund is.
- [10:15]
Tamara Keith
For Insight, every Weekday Listen to NPR's.
- [10:18]
Susan Davis
The Indicator from Planet Money.
- [10:21]
Jarl and Pamela Mone
Support for NPR. And the following message come from Jarl and Pamela Mone thanking the people who make public radio great every day and also those who listen.
- [10:33]
Susan Davis
And we're back. And NPR science correspondent Will Stone joins us now. Hello, Will you.
- [10:38]
Will Stone
Hey there.
- [10:39]
Susan Davis
So President Trump withdrew his first pick for surgeon general and has named a new nominee. Before we get to who these nominees are, Will, briefly, can you explain exactly what the job of surgeon general is and why it's important?
- [10:53]
Will Stone
Sure. So the surgeon general, you know, we usually refer to it as the nation's doctor top doctor. They oversee the U.S. public Health Services Commission Corps. So that's about 6,000 uniformed public health professionals. And interestingly, I learned that when the position was first created, the surgeon general actually had some real power to issue, to issue federal public health orders. But over time, that has changed. And, you know, nowadays the position really functions like a health communicator in chief. We saw that with the last surgeon general, Vivek Murthy. He issued reports on loneliness being an epidemic. He called for health warnings on social media. So I'd say the power of the position really lies in, you know, the person's ability to champion certain issues and bring exposure.
- [11:47]
Susan Davis
So who did President Trump withdraw?
- [11:50]
Will Stone
So Trump had initially tapped Dr. Jeanette Neshawat. She was a FOX News contributor. Now she's a former contributor. She had come under fire recently partially because of a pattern of misrepresenting her medical credentials, including where she had gone to medical school. This was reported out first by an independent journalist named Anthony Clark. At the same time, she'd also come under fire from the far right, namely Laura Loomer and others who did not like her past positions, especially on COVID policy, her support of vaccination and encouraging masking. And what exactly tipped the scales? You know, the White House didn't say. But, you know, this week we learned that Trump had decided to pivot and he has picked Dr. Casey Means instead.
- [12:42]
Susan Davis
She's actually someone who I'm familiar with in part because I have seen her in recent years a lot in my Instagram feed.
- [12:50]
Tamara Keith
Can you tell me everything about your Instagram feed?
- [12:53]
Susan Davis
Can you explain more about who Casey Means is?
- [12:56]
Will Stone
Yeah. Well, maybe not surprising you've seen her because she's really, I'd say, catapulted into the, into the wellness scene, you know, online kind of sphere around nutrition, lifestyle. What really brought her, you know, into the mainstream area is that she published a bestselling book called Good Energy, Kind of a self help diet book about chronic disease and the problems with our western style of health care and its lack of focus on root causes. And she actually published this with her brother, Kali Means. He is an advisor to Secretary Kennedy and he was a big player, it seems, in the Make America Healthy Again coalition that emerged around Trump, you know, leading up to the election. So Casey Means herself is a Stanford trained physician. She went to undergrad and medical school there. She then went on to surgical residency, but ultimately dropped out of that residency before finishing it. In her book, she talks about being disillusioned with, you know, medicine's focus on surgery and drugs and not, not paying attention to lifestyle. This really kind of forms her narrative. But I will say it is unusual for someone to drop out of surgical residency, especially when they're getting close to finishing up.
- [14:18]
Susan Davis
Tim, how did the White House explain why they picked her?
- [14:22]
Tamara Keith
Well, this was like the week of President Trump, just saying, like, yeah, I don't know, man. Ask somebody else. So he, he was, he was asked in the Oval Office yesterday about concerns about her credential because she did drop out of that residency program. She doesn't have an active medic medical license. And you know, typically the Surgeon General has an active medical license and has actually practiced medicine in a robust fashion before going into the role. And, and here's how he responded because.
- [14:54]
Susan Davis
Bobby thought she was fantastic. She's highly, she's a brilliant woman who went through Stanford. And as I understand it, she basically wanted to do, she wanted to be an academic as opposed to a surgeon. I think she graduated first in her class at Stanford and Bobbi really thought she was great. I don't know her. I listened to the recommendation of Bobbi. I met her yesterday and once before. She's a very outstanding person, a great academic, actually. Bobby, of course, being Health and Human Services Secretary, RFK junior Robert F. Kennedy.
- [15:25]
Tamara Keith
Junior Robert F. Kennedy, junior Yep. You know, the interesting thing is that he has not withdrawn that many nominations at this point. Obviously there was Matt Gaetz and there have been just a handful of others. But, you know, often, as often as the case when a nomination is withdrawn, there's something going on under the surface or maybe senators quietly making it clear that they are not going to give the support that this person needs. I don't know the exact scuttlebutt that led to where we are, but based on Will's reporting this may not be an easy confirmation either.
- [16:05]
Susan Davis
Yeah, well, I do think something else you said really stuck out to me because I think you're right that, like being in the surgeon general in, in the modern era is like a communications job. And in that regard, I can see why she has appealed. She's very poised. She's a very strong communicator. But as someone who has seen her a bunch on social media, I do think we should note that, like, she does kind of embrace positions that are not backed up by robust medical studies. For instance, she has been a proponent of drinking raw milk. She's questioned hormonal birth control and how that might affect women's health. She also owns a glucose monitoring company and she advocates for people to continually monitor their glucose, even though there's not much science that suggests you should do that if you don't have blood sugar issues. As someone, as if you were diabetic, she seems very well versed in sort of the wellness industry, more so than potentially the medical industry. Yeah.
- [17:03]
Will Stone
And interesting, Trump is talking about her being an academic. That is not, if you asked most academics, that is not what they would, how they would define an academic. And she also, if you look back at some of her newsletters, she kind of gets pretty woo and she even uses that word to describe herself. I mean, talking about speaking to trees and spiritual mediums and full moon ceremonies, plant medicine. And also, let's just not forget vaccines. Right. She has not been kind of as outspoken, I would say, about vaccines as Secretary Kennedy, but she has repeatedly brought up concerns about their safety, about the vaccine schedule, and, you know, things along those lines.
- [17:47]
Susan Davis
All right, well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was great to talk to you.
- [17:51]
Will Stone
Sure thing.
- [17:51]
Susan Davis
Okay, one more break and then it's time for Can't Let It Go.
- [17:55]
Tamara Keith
Know that fizzy feeling you get when you read something really good. Watch the movie everyone's been talking about or catch the show that the Internet can't get over. At the Pop Culture Happy Hour Podcast, we chase that feeling four times a week. We'll serve you recommendations and commentary on the buzziest movies, tv, music and more, from low brow to highbrow to the stuff in between. Catch the Pop Culture Happy Hour Pop podcast from npr. Imagine, if you will, a show from NPR that's not like npr, a show that focuses not on the important, but the stupid, which features stories about people smuggling animals in their pants, incompetent criminals, and ridiculous science studies. And call it, Wait, wait, don't tell me, because of the good names were taken. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, don't tell me.
- [18:38]
Susan Davis
Yes, that is what it is called.
- [18:40]
Tamara Keith
Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:46]
Susan Davis
Tariffs, recessions, how Colombian drug cartels gave us blueberries all year long. That's the kind of thing the Planet Money podcast explains. I'm Sarah Gonzalez, and on Planet Money, we help you understand the economy and how things all around you came to be the way they are. Para que sepas. So, you know, listen to the Planet Money podcast from npr. And we're back, and NPR White House correspondent Asma Khalid is with us. Hello, friend.
- [19:13]
Asma Khalid
Hey there.
- [19:14]
Susan Davis
And, Asmaa, we're having you on for a very special episode of Can't Let It Go because you have some news to share.
- [19:20]
Asma Khalid
I do. Folks, this is so long. I'm gonna be stepping away from the podcast, which feels so strange because it has been so many years with you all. But I'm gonna be filling in as a guest host on NPR and WBUR's midday new show called Here and Now. It's something I've long wanted to do. I love anchoring. And as much as I love politics, there are so many other things that I would also love to talk about from time to time, and this is an opportunity to do that.
- [19:52]
Susan Davis
And, you know, normally we would go around and talk about the thing we can't let go of the week, but I think this week, the thing we can't let go of, Asma, is you. We're really gonna miss you. And I'm gonna miss you guys, too. I just feel like I was thinking about, you know, we've been covering the news together for the better part, or at least the entire last decade, and it's like, man, we have lived some lives together.
- [20:11]
Tamara Keith
I don't like doing that math.
- [20:12]
Susan Davis
But.
- [20:12]
Tamara Keith
But the podcast started in November of 2015. And, Asma, you were part of the original crew.
- [20:21]
Asma Khalid
I was in the studio with you all. Yes, I remember that.
- [20:24]
Tamara Keith
And we actually found the first episode that you appeared on Intersect.
- [20:30]
Will Stone
First, some introductions.
- [20:31]
Susan Davis
I'm Sam Sanders, campaign reporter here at npr.
- [20:34]
Ximena Bustillo
And I'm Asma Khalid.
- [20:35]
Asma Khalid
Cover demographics and politics.
- [20:36]
Susan Davis
I'm Domenico. Demographics and political politics.
- [20:39]
Asma Khalid
Do I sound like a little baby then? I know. I'm so.
- [20:41]
Tamara Keith
We were all. We were so innocent then, you know.
- [20:44]
Asma Khalid
When you're like, oh, my God, I've birthed children, and I have lived lives during this time. So much has happened since then.
- [20:50]
Susan Davis
I mean, three elections, two impeachments, a pandemic, any number of insane political events in between those Years. And you have also, you know, you. You left us once before, and you came back. So this may not be goodbye forever.
- [21:02]
Tamara Keith
We never know. So the thing, Asma, about you that I just cannot let go of is your can't let it goes, which are often, you know, this is the part of the show where we talk about the things, politics or otherwise, that we just can't stop thinking about, and we're supposed to have fun.
- [21:20]
Asma Khalid
And Asma's like, let me bring it down.
- [21:23]
Tamara Keith
Let me tell you, the thing I can't let go of is deadly serious.
- [21:30]
Susan Davis
I want to put a cloud over the rest of your weekend, folks, by the thing I can't let go. I was actually thinking, if I have one regret, I regret not keeping a list of all the things Asma wanted to be. I can't let it go. That were Nicks, because that list would probably be epic. Because I do feel like you always wanted to bring sort of like the darkest thought to the end of the show. Genocides, pandemics, death rates, something terrible happening in the world. Asma wanted to talk about it.
- [22:01]
Tamara Keith
I don't think technically those were any of her Catlett jokes.
- [22:04]
Asma Khalid
No, those were not. But look, you know, the world is ahead, and sometimes it's like, you know, I think people are like, I want to end on a light note. And this is how much I will say our camaraderie, our friendship has meant that, like, sometimes bringing those heavy things to you all is a chance to, like, talk it through and be like, all right, it's not that bad. So in my defense, guys, it is a sign of how much I have endeared and enjoyed talking to you all over the years.
- [22:29]
Tamara Keith
And sometimes it is that bad. It's okay. Like, life can be a downer. Things are difficult in this world, and.
- [22:38]
Asma Khalid
You talk it through with your friends.
- [22:39]
Tamara Keith
Yes, exactly.
- [22:40]
Asma Khalid
It feels a little bit better.
- [22:42]
Susan Davis
I'm also gonna miss you. Because before I knew that this was gonna be the Asma farewell, my can't let it go for this week was going to be about Rihanna at the Met Gala. And I also would say that the other segments I always liked being in with you was when you either brought death or fashion, and I think in between. And very few in between, to be fair.
- [23:02]
Asma Khalid
Even on our White House, like, group chat this week, I was send a picture of the former vice president who attended the Met gala. And, you know, I had to offer my fashion take on her outfit. So, yes, that is another deep, deep love of mine, which. Hey, folks, when you cover a broad big radio show you might be able to talk about sometimes. So for the fashion hot takes, I'll say join me from midday news on NPR now.
- [23:26]
Susan Davis
And we did joke, our producer Casey Morrell did joke you could do a whole segment called Death or Fashion now that you're a host.
- [23:33]
Tamara Keith
Yeah. So we will be tuning in for that segment on here. And I'm sure everyone there will be glad to have that segment.
- [23:41]
Asma Khalid
I love that. I love that. But no, really, guys, in all sincerity, it has been a ride. We've been through a lot together. And I was just thinking you mentioned pandemic. I think one of the things about covering elections with people is that you really form a deep bond. And I was thinking about the fact that when we got Covid as a family early on, Tam, you were here and you dropped off an entire goodie bag of stuff for our food family. And that meant a lot. And I just think that there are experiences you live through when you're in the trenches covering campaigns with people that bond you forever. So, guys, even though I'm leaving, you're stuck with me forever.
- [24:17]
Susan Davis
Forever. I will also say one of the things I will never forget about you is how you covered the pandemic. Pregnant. And I always just remember being like, this is like some of the bravest things I've seen. People, you were out on the road.
- [24:28]
Tamara Keith
It wasn't the pandemic. She covered the campaign in a pandemic.
- [24:32]
Susan Davis
Pregnant.
- [24:32]
Tamara Keith
Yes.
- [24:33]
Susan Davis
Like you really. And I remember, like when a lot of people weren't going out on the road, you were very pregnant, going out and telling stories. And I was like, she is committed to this when you are willing to go out there. So we love you. We'll miss you. And the good thing is we still get to hear you all the time. You'll be on Monday to Friday. So if you miss Asma's voice, you will know where to find her. Good luck, friend.
- [24:52]
Asma Khalid
Thank you, guys.
- [24:54]
Susan Davis
Okay. That is it for Asma and that is it for us today. Our executive producer is Muthoni Matori. Casey Morell edits the podcast. Our producer are Lexi Schapitl, Bria Suggs and Kelly Wessinger. Special thanks to Christian Ed of Kalamer. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.
- [25:09]
Tamara Keith
I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.
- [25:11]
Asma Khalid
Oh, my gosh, guys. And one last time, I must makhalid. I cover the White House.
- [25:14]
Susan Davis
And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast. You're listening to the NPR Network, live from NPR News. I'm Lakshmi A living breathing record of your neighborhood, the country, the world, told by thousands of local journalists who live in the places where stories unfold, backed by a national newsroom that puts it all in perspective. Hear the whole country's story. Hear ways of thinking that challenge your own. Hear the bigger picture with npr.
- [25:49]
Jarl and Pamela Mone
Support for NPR and the following message come from Jarl and Pamela Mone, thanking the people who make public radio great every day and also those who listen.