Sources & Methods: Navy cartel strike, China's power flex

Summary

The NPR Politics Podcast: "Sources & Methods"

Episode: Navy cartel strike, China's power flex
Date: September 6, 2025
Host: Mary Louise Kelly with Tom Bowman (Pentagon Correspondent) & Anthony Kuhn (Asia Correspondent, based in Seoul)

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Overview of Main Theme

This episode delves into two of the week's most pressing national security stories: the dramatic U.S. Navy strike on a Venezuelan drug boat and the powerful display of unity and military might at a Beijing parade attended by China's Xi Jinping, Russia's Vladimir Putin, and North Korea's Kim Jong Un. The hosts unpack the implications of U.S. military action in South America, the legal and strategic questions it raises, and the broader context of rising tensions and posturing between global powers. The episode also includes reflections from Asia, spotlighting China's perspectives and ambitions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The U.S. Navy Strike on a Venezuelan Drug Boat

Timestamps: 01:00–09:20

• Background and Details of the Strike
  • President Trump released a video showing a U.S. Navy strike that obliterated a small motorboat, claiming it was carrying a large Venezuelan drug shipment—everyone aboard was reportedly killed ([02:22]).
  • Congressional leaders were not briefed ahead of time, which Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman calls "highly unusual" ([03:17]).
  • Usual protocol involves the Coast Guard disabling suspected drug boats and arresting the crew, not destroying them:

    “Generally, if you suspect a vessel having drugs… you can just disable the engine… In this case, Secretary of State Marco Rubio said, we could have stopped it, but the President said, blow it up.”
    – Tom Bowman ([03:17])

• Legal and Policy Questions Raised
  • Bowman underscores the lack of transparency:

    “You sure as hell should share it with Congress. That has not happened.”
    – Tom Bowman ([04:43])

  • Rubio justifies the action based on "established intelligence mechanisms with maybe a higher focus" ([04:20]—Rubio).
• Escalation and New Policy Direction
  • Bowman’s sources describe this as a “new way ahead,” likening it to the U.S. campaign against the Houthis in Yemen ([05:13]).
  • Suggests a significant escalation, with potential for continued or expanded military actions against cartels.
• Global Implications and Perceptions
  • From Asia, Anthony Kuhn observes China sees this as a form of renewed “gunboat diplomacy,” reminiscent of imperial-era Western intervention ([06:24]).
  • The U.S. has also used the fentanyl crisis and Chinese precursor chemicals to justify further tariffs and security steps ([07:00]).

2. Venezuela–US Relations and Regional Intimidation

Timestamps: 07:57–09:20

• Recent weeks have seen increased U.S. confrontational posturing towards President Maduro’s government, including doubling the bounty for his capture and deploying eight U.S. warships to the region ([07:57]–[08:29]).
• Bowman: Doubts the U.S. will invade but emphasizes the show of force is designed to pressure Maduro ([08:29]–[09:09]).
• Mary Louise Kelly notes the symbolism of U.S. National Guard troops being used domestically as another kind of visible show of force ([09:09]).

3. China's Military Parade and Power Projection

Timestamps: 09:37–14:32

• Historical Spectacle with Contemporary Significance
  • The parade, commemorating the end of WWII, saw Xi, Putin, and Kim Jong Un standing together—an unmistakable geopolitical message ([09:37]).
• Showcasing Advanced Military Capability
  • New ICBMs capable of reaching the continental U.S., laser weapons, AI drones displayed ([10:20]).
  • Tom Bowman: Pentagon is not surprised; in areas like hypersonics, China may be ahead of the U.S. ([11:24]).
• Strategic Context
  • China builds “anti-access/area denial” capabilities to keep U.S. forces at bay, leveraging geography and willingness to absorb casualties ([12:37]).
  • Bowman: “If you really want to go after your enemy… you blind them, you take out their satellites. That’s something the U.S. is going to focus on…” ([12:56])
  • China has not fought a major war since 1979—calls into question real battle effectiveness ([13:45]).

4. Global Order and Symbolism

Timestamps: 14:32–16:26

• Xi Jinping’s speech casts China as a proponent of peace and “win-win cooperation,” blaming the West for zero-sum politics ([14:32]).
• Anthony Kuhn observes the guest list—Russia, North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Vietnam—highlights a rising authoritarian bloc positioning itself against the West ([15:06]).
• The mere presence of Xi, Putin, and Kim together sends a message; Kuhn:

  “They did not need to sit down for a meeting because just the image… was as effective a message as they could send.” ([15:58])

• Tom Bowman: China’s narrative is stability and predictability, contrasting with Trump administration’s unpredictability ([16:02]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tom Bowman, on naval escalation:

  “This is a new way ahead. And he said he likened it to fighting the Houthis in Yemen… This is the new normal.” ([05:13])

• Anthony Kuhn, on Chinese perceptions:

  “It reminds them of gunboat diplomacy, of the sort that imperialist powers used on China in the late 19th century.” ([06:24])

• Tom Bowman, on Chinese technology advances:

  “China in some respects is moving ahead of the U.S. on some of these armaments, like hypersonic missiles which can go five times the speed of sound.” ([11:24])

• Anthony Kuhn, on symbolism:

  “The image of Kim, Putin, and Xi standing up there was as effective a message as they could send.” ([16:02])

• Tom Bowman, on U.S. vs. China military culture:

  “…we don’t put on shows, we fight.” ([14:26])

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Listener Letters & OSINT Segment

Timestamps: 16:26–22:01

• Listener Letters:
  • Jonathan (former Air Force intelligence coordinator) and Peter (Ohio State) write in, prompting a brief history of the Department of Defense (and its evolution from the Department of War under the National Security Act of 1947) ([17:36]).
• OSINT (Open Source Intelligence):
  • Anthony Kuhn: Describes China’s “Red Flag” parade limousines, including their foreign-sourced engines and the backup limo—both a symbol and a practical insurance due to reliability concerns ([18:38]).
  • Tom Bowman: Reports that as Voice of America retracts globally, China is acquiring radio licenses in places like São Tomé and Príncipe to expand influence ([19:45]).
  • Mary Louise Kelly: Shares an anecdote about encountering Nigel Farage at the launch of GB News’ Washington bureau, prepping for coverage of Trump’s upcoming state visit to the UK ([20:32]).

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• Navy cartel strike discussion: 01:00–09:20
• China’s military parade and significance: 09:37–14:32
• Xi Jinping’s rhetoric & bloc symbolism: 14:32–16:26
• Listener mail & history segment: 16:26–18:38
• OSINT/“open source intelligence” roundtable: 18:38–22:01

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Conclusion and Tone

The episode is brisk, analytical, and lightly irreverent—balancing policy depth with accessible conversation. The panel ponders Washington’s increasingly aggressive posture toward Venezuela, China’s calculated power flex, and the “new normal” in global security, offering rare inside perspectives flavored with wariness, a touch of cynicism, and dry wit.

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For more national security reporting, listeners are encouraged to follow "Sources and Methods" and submit questions or feedback via email, as highlighted in the closing minutes ([16:26]).

Transcript

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[Tamara Keith]

I'm Tamara Keith here with a Saturday bonus episode for you. It's the most recent episode of NPR's National Security Podcast, Sources and Methods, where NPR reporters who cover the military, State Department and spy agencies break down the biggest natsec news of the week. We're going to share these episodes each Saturday for a couple of weeks because their show is a lot like ours and we think you'll like it. You might even hear us on there from time to time. New episodes drop every Thursday, and you can follow the show wherever you listen to this one. So here you go, Sources and Methods, the new national security podcast from npr.

[Tom Bowman]

So I was talking to this US Official I've known for years, and he said, this is a new way ahead. And I said, you guys aren't going to shoot on the land in Venezuela, are you? He wouldn't answer, but he said, this will continue.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

The might of the US Military trained against South American drug cartels as three men, the leaders of US Adversaries, rivals China, Russia and North Korea, stand shoulder to shoulder for the very first time is Sources and Methods from npr. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Every Thursday, we discuss the biggest national security stories of the week. I do that with my colleagues from NPR's NATSAC team covering the military, the State Department, the intelligence community, and also with NPR international correspondents stationed around the world today. That is Anthony Kuhn. He's here in the middle of the night for him, 13 hours ahead of us in Seoul, South Korea, his home base, reporting on the region. Anthony, good evening. Good morning. I'm not sure. Hello. How are you?

[Anthony Kuhn]

Wee hours of the morning. Good morning. Good wee hours to you.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Good wee hours to you. And here with me happily in the same time zone, indeed, the very same studio here in Washington on a Thursday workday. Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. Hey there, Tom.

[Tom Bowman]

Hey, Mary Louise.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Hi. So it has been a short work week for many of us here in the US because of the Labor Day holiday, but there's been no shortage of national security news. So let's dive in. I wanna start on Tuesday, which is when President Trump posted a black and white video, a grainy video. It showed a small motorboat obliterated by what President Trump said was a strike from the US Navy. In that boat, he said, was a big Venezuelan drug shipment. He said 11 people were in the boat. They were all killed. Tom Bowman. Tensions between the US And Venezuela were already high. Now they are really high.

[Tom Bowman]

No, very high. And, you know, that's pretty much. Mar. Louise, all we know about this. We don't know what kind of drugs are on board. Were these people actually narco terrorists? Where did they come from? And I talked to a couple of sources.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Because it's all blown up so.

[Tom Bowman]

Exactly. It just blew it out of the water. I talked to a couple of sources on Capitol Hill, one in the Senate, one in the House. They have not been briefed on this yet, which is highly unusual. And they also raised the question, what was the legal authority for doing this? Because generally, if you suspect a vessel having drugs on it, the Coast Guard shows up, they communicate with the crew. And if the boat takes off, they can shoot one across the bow, or they can just disable the engine. They could just shoot a.50 caliber round right through the engine block and stop it dead in the water. In this case, Secretary of State Marco Rubio said, we could have stopped it, but the President said, blow it up. And as we see in the video, just big flash and that boat is gone.

[Marco Rubio]

And it'll happen again. Maybe it's happening right now, I don't know. But the point is, yeah, this was.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

We'll note that Marco Rubio has been traveling in Latin America this week, not in Venezuela, but he did, as you say, he weighed in on this boat attack from Mexico City. I just want to play a little bit of it because he did answer that question on my mind. Why didn't they just search the boat? Why did they have to blow it up? Let's listen.

[Marco Rubio]

The United States has long, for many, many years, established intelligence that allow us to interdict and stop drug boats. So the same information and the same intelligence mechanisms with maybe a higher focus was used to determine that a drug boat was headed towards, eventually, the United.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

States, using the same intelligence mechanisms with maybe a higher focus. Do we have any idea what that means?

[Tom Bowman]

Well, we don't. It could be satellites keeping an eye on some of the ports here. It could be human intelligence with these guys loading the boat. And it could be voice intercepts, communications intercepts, as, you know, covering the intelligence community. They're pretty easy to gather. It would tell you, you know, what they're doing, what they're talking about. But the big thing is, okay, if that's the case, why don't you share it with the public, and you sure as hell should share it with Congress. That has not happened.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

This is what people in Congress are telling you, right?

[Tom Bowman]

So I was talking to this US Official I've known for years. It's like, come on, man, why don't you give us some information? What's going on? And he's privy to kind of the way ahead on this. And he said, get this, this is a new way ahead. And he said he likened it to fighting the Houthis in Yemen. He said, this is not gonna end anytime soon. And I said, wait a minute, the Houthis in Yemen, you're hitting land sites, you're hitting radar facilities, headquarters. You guys aren't gonna shoot on the land in Venezuela, are you? He wouldn't answer, but he said, this will continue. This is the new normal.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

He said, anthony Kuhn, hop in on this. You're watching all this from a different continent. And you're watching, just to recap, you know, this boat destroyed by the US Navy. Meanwhile, I'm sure you're also tracking the armed National Guard troops patrolling the streets here in was D.C. we're hearing from President Trump more about the idea of sending troops to other cities. He's floated Chicago this week. He added New Orleans maybe to the list of where he may want to send federal troops. From your perch there in Asia, what does this look like? What are people telling you? Military might, military theater, What?

[Anthony Kuhn]

Well, China has kept pretty quiet on this, but I have an idea of what they're thinking, and that is that it reminds them of gunboat diplomacy, of the sort that imperialist powers used on China in the late 19th century. At the same time, this has a big connection with them, and that is that the US has indicated that it could use the military to go after drug production such as fentanyl, including in Mexico. And the precursors, the ingredients for that come from China. And of course, the US has levied tariffs on China that are related to that. Fentanyl.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Yeah. Just to spell some of this out, this is the Trump administration, which for a while now has said, look, a lot of the illegal drugs that come into the US Come from China. They've pointed to fentanyl. As you just noted, they've used fentanyl to justify tariffs. Tom Bowman.

[Tom Bowman]

Well, first of all, this boat that they blew up, the drugs on board were likely cocaine, which comes from Colombia, through Venezuela, and then on into the Caribbean to the United States. Now, if that's the case, are you going after cocaine, which is, you know, obviously huge amounts going through the Caribbean? If you're going after fentanyl, it doesn't Come in in this route. It comes in through Mexico on Chinese ships, either the fentanyl or the precursor to chemicals. I was talking to an administration official earlier this year and he said one of the things we're talking about, work with the Mexicans at the docks. Now, we don't know if they're doing that. It would make a lot of sense, a lot more sense in blowing up this fast boat in the Caribbean.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

One thing we do know, just to round out this portion of our discussion, the Trump administration has been increasingly confrontational toward Venezuela. This week being the latest manifestation. They accused President Nicolas Maduro of Venezuela of leading a drug cartel. They just doubled the bounty on his head to $50 million with now multiple warships, U.S. warships deployed. The Pentagon has confirmed eight warships including. How worried should Caracas be?

[Tom Bowman]

Well, I don't think they'll probably invade Venezuela. They're clearly putting a lot more pressure on Maduro. There was an indictment against him five years ago during the first Trump administration. He denies any involvement in the narco terrorism world.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Are you hearing, though, as you walk Pentagon hallways, any idea of what those warships are doing? Is it just a show of force?

[Tom Bowman]

Yeah, pretty much a show of force. And also, you don't need eight warships, including three destroyers to take out a small motorboat. You could do that with a Coast Guard. So, yeah, clearly a lot of this is a show of force, frankly, just like the National Guard on the streets of Washington, D.C. it's a show of force. What do those guys know about police?

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Doesn't mean it's not effective.

[Tom Bowman]

Correct. It's also good pictures.

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[Mary Louise Kelly]

Now to Beijing, where, Anthony, we witnessed some history this week. China's President Xi Jinping, Russia's President Vladimir Putin and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un with a couple of dozen other world leaders were all there watching thousands of soldiers goose stepping through Tiananmen Square. This huge military parade, it was officially to commemorate the 80th anniversary of the end of World War II, the defeat of Imperial Japan. But it sent a lot of signals that are a lot more contemporary than that. Anthony, unpack the significance for us.

[Anthony Kuhn]

So there was a military message and there was a political message. The military message was that they have some serious new weaponry and chief among those were some new ICBMs that can hit anywhere in the continental US and that are part of a bigger expansion that includes building new missile silo fields in China and also tripling the stockpile of their nuclear warheads. There were also new high tech gadgets such as directed energy weapons or lasers, AI drones. Now, these things, the US and China may both say they have them first, but they're all sort of emerging technologies, all not completely deployed or proven yet. So that's unclear.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And for those who haven't seen the video, I will note, Anthony, when you say they were rolling them out this week, they were literally rolling them on these giant flatbed trucks down the streets. Tom Bowman, did the Pentagon, did the US Military know China has all this stuff? Was there any huge revelation?

[Tom Bowman]

Oh, sure. No, no, they know. And China in some respects is moving ahead of the US on some of these armaments, like hypersonic missiles which can go five times the speed of sound. They have them, the US Is going to deploy them later this year. So that's a concern for the US in particular. Also with cyber, with robotics, some space assets, the Chinese are either on par or moving ahead. I'll note too that one of the concerns China has is the US working with other countries in the region, training bases and exercises with Filipino troops, with Australian troops. Singapore is quietly working with the U.S. even Vietnam is closer to the U.S. so people tell me, listen, the U.S. has allies, China has customers.

[Anthony Kuhn]

Tom, you know, we, we brought this up before that the US feels it's a generation or multiple generations ahead of China in terms of certain technology. But you can't discount other factors like distance, like willingness to absorb costs and casualties and asymmetrical approaches that sort of, you know, nullify technological advantages. Right.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Spell out what you mean with some of that when you talk about distance.

[Anthony Kuhn]

The home field advantage that China enjoys in its own backyard, where the US is, you know, deploying a lot of military hardware, positioning missiles around China. But what China does is called anti access and area denial. And that means using their weapons to make it impossible for America to get to the fight.

[Tom Bowman]

No, that's absolutely a big part of this also. And here's the thing. If China ever goes to war with the United States and people think that's unlikely, they're not sure if they're going to try to take Taiwan. They'll have a capability in two years. If you really want to go after your enemy in this day and age, you blind them, you take out their satellites. That's something that I think the US is going to focus on more and sending more troops over to the region. And you're absolutely right. There's a tyranny of distance getting the US Forces there. But US Officials say to me also, listen, China might have a huge army, they might have more ships. They haven't fought a battle since 1979, and they got their heads kicked in by Vietnam, a border battle. It's one thing to have a lot of really good hardware. What happens when the bullets start flying? Can you fight just one more on hardware?

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Before we move on from the whole spectacle on Tiananmen Square this week, how did it measure up to the big military parade here in Washington this summer that President Trump. It was on his actual birthday. He was excited about it. Tom Bowman, you were reporting on that.

[Tom Bowman]

It was completely different. Now, they sent tanks and Bradley fighting Vehicles down the streets. In Washington, I'm told President Trump was kind of upset. He wanted something that looked like the Chinese parade, where they're all squared away, they're all the same height, they're all the same.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

There was no goose stepping here.

[Tom Bowman]

No goose stepping, none of that. Apparently, he was upset because, you know, they were waving at the crowd. They didn't look mean and tough like the Chinese or the Russians do.

[Anthony Kuhn]

Too relaxed, right?

[Tom Bowman]

So relaxed. And people tell me tomorrow we don't put on shows, we fight.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay, so let's go to the big symbolism or the message that may have been intended here, Anthony, because I was struck by something from President Xi's. I think it was his opening speech where he said, humanity, again has to choose between peace and war, dialogue and confrontation. Win, win, cooperation, or zero sum game. That's President Xi of China apparently making the case that China is the peace, dialogue and cooperation side of this equation.

[Anthony Kuhn]

Yes, that's right. I mean, that's his message, that, you know, China is supposed to be learning the lessons of World War II. You know, you can't have these law of the jungle and zero sum games. People have got to cooperate. Well, that's a great message, but look at the people around him. Not just Russia and North Korea, but Iran and Belarus and Vietnam and Cuba and basically a lot of authoritarian nations. But basically Xi's message is that we are entering a new global order in which the west is declining, and China and the countries there at the parade, including Russia and North Korea, are on the ascent. And he says that this process is accelerating with, you know, the populism that is besetting Western democracies and all these three men did not need to sit down for a meeting because just the image of the three of them, Kim, Putin, and Xi standing up there was as a effective a message as they could send.

[Tom Bowman]

And they're basically putting out the message of stability and predictability as opposed to chaos with the Trump administration. Unpredictability again, getting back to the tariffs, sticking it to your allies with tariffs. He's trying to portray them as this is the new way forward.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay. As we wrap the show, a quick note that you can email us at sourcesandmethodspr.org, sources and methods, all spelled out, no spaces. And that link is in our episode notes. We would love to hear your feedback, your ideas for what we should be talking about, your reaction to anything you hear us talking about here. And with thanks to those who have already written to us in these first couple weeks of the show, we thought we would share a note or two among the many of you who've written. We heard from Jonathan. He wrote that he is a former Air Force intelligence coordinator and said I missed the Department of War story and the fire hose of this week. Great work. Well, thank you, John. He was referring to a story that I mentioned last week that President Trump thinks he would like to rename the Department of Defense the Department of War. Tom Bowman, just quickly, any movement on that this week or is this just.

[Tom Bowman]

I have not heard anything about that yet. I would not be surprised. It would be highly unusual. The Department of War, by the way, when they created it, it was only about the Army. And then they created Department of the Navy. One of the reasons they put together the Department of Defense was it embraced all of the services, including the new Air Force, the National security act of 1947.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Well, this brings me to the next letter I wanted to share. This was we heard from Peter, who is at the Ohio State University. He wrote us and said, yes, President Truman oversaw changing the name from Department of War to Department of Defense. That was indeed the national security Act of 1947 that did it. And it also established the CIA, the National Security Council and Peter Wrotas. The reason was, and I'm quoting him, to centralize security and intelligence to avoid future calamities on the scale Pearl harbor and to safeguard the country against rising communist influence. So, Peter, thank you. Tom Bowman, thank you for the history lesson this week. That brings us to the end of our show and to my favorite part of the show, if I'm allowed to say that our regular segment, osint, that OSINT is open source intelligence, meaning it's out there, it's in the open. It's valuable information that is publicly available to one and all. But that you might miss if you are not looking for it. Anthony, anything you want to offer up this week?

[Anthony Kuhn]

Sure. A little visual detail from China's military parade. So I've been to a lot of these things, and one area of continuity I saw was this. If you look at Xi Jinping's limousine as he goes down through Tiananmen Square with his head sticking out of the vehicle, reviewing the troops, you notice there's an empty limousine behind him. And these limousines are made by China's own factory. They're called red flag limousines, and they started making them shortly after the revolution. And I once spoke to an engineer who made these things and he said, you know, this is really embarrassing. These are Chinese made things and they have to have this empty limousine as a backup in case the thing breaks down in the middle of the street.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Oh, I thought you were going to tell me it was a decoy. It's in case the first one breaks down.

[Anthony Kuhn]

Yes. Even though it's China's homemade limousine, inside that thing are engines made by Chrysler and Nissan and Audi. A little embarrassing. And yes, there is also a security element involved, but it's a slightly embarrassing holdover for the automotive engineers.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

There you go. Tom Bowman, can you top it?

[Tom Bowman]

Well, I was having a couple of pints with two sources of mine. My favorite way to talk with sources, one from the State Department. And he, as we all know, VOA has been gutted. The voice of America, Right? So as a result, all these broadcast licenses around the world are open. And this guy told me that in the island nation off the west coast of Africa, it's so Tome and Principe. Their licenses, these radio licenses, are up for grabs because VOA basically said, we don't need these anymore. Guess who is interested in picking them up.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I have a feeling you're about to tie together this whole episode. Are we back to China?

[Tom Bowman]

We are indeed.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

What's in your pint glass, by the way? Are you a lager guy? No, no.

[Tom Bowman]

IPA all the way.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Well, I can top you. So my OSINT involves me drinking champagne here in Washington. Last night, the hot ticket party was headlined by British politician and MP Nigel Farage. He was in town, among other things, he was on Capitol Hill. But last night he was headlining a launch party to open the D.C. bureau of GB News. This is conservative news outlet, Upstart news channel in Britain. So they had a few hundred people, journalists, politicians, quite a few members of the Trump cabinet to a private club down the block from the White House. Farage was holding court himself in this bright blue suit. He had just tweeted out a picture of himself with Donald Trump in the Oval Office, same suit. I was there. I was working. I went to ask Nigel Farage for an interview, asked him for it. I am interested, among other things, in his immigration policies and how the immigration debate in Britain tracks or does not track the conversation here. So, Nigel, Nigel Farage, if you're listening, I hope you will take our questions. We're going to take this podcast to London in a couple of weeks because President Trump is going over there to make his second state visit. And we'll be hoping to bring you a lot of voices from that. That is it for today's episode of Sources and Methods. Anthony Kew and Tom Bowman, thank you so much for being here.

[Tom Bowman]

You're welcome.

[Anthony Kuhn]

Thank you, Mary Louise.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Before we go, a plug for npr. NPR supporters hear every episode without sponsor messages, which means more national security news, more natsec analysis in less time. And you get to unlock access to our complete archive, which means the four most most recent episodes of this show will always be free and available. After that, they go into our archive where our supporters can hear them anytime. So sign up for NPR. You get a lot more [e-mail] that link is in our Episode notes. We are back next Thursday. We'll have another new episode for you. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Thanks for listening to Sources and Methods from npr.

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