Sources & Methods: Two wars escalate abroad, political violence at home

Summary

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The NPR Politics Podcast

Episode: Sources & Methods: Two wars escalate abroad, political violence at home
Date: September 13, 2025

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Episode Overview

This special episode guest-features NPR’s new national security podcast "Sources and Methods." Host Mary Louise Kelly and national security correspondents Odette Youssef and Greg Myre unpack urgent global and domestic security developments: dramatic escalations in the Israel-Hamas and Russia-Ukraine wars, and the assassination of U.S. conservative activist Charlie Kirk in Utah. The episode reflects on the lasting shadow of 9/11 on U.S. institutions and the national security apparatus, the politicization of intelligence under President Trump’s second term, and the evolving and complex landscape of political violence at home.

The show is rounded out with an interview featuring Senator Alyssa Slotkin, a former CIA analyst and White House official profoundly shaped by 9/11, who discusses the current state of American institutions, intelligence, and the persistent threat of division within the country.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Assassination of Charlie Kirk and Rising Political Violence (02:40 – 04:05)

• Charlie Kirk, a prominent conservative activist, was shot and killed during a speech on a Utah college campus—an event amplifying national concern over growing political violence in the U.S.

• Reporting Uncertainty: As of recording, no suspect was in custody. Two individuals had been arrested and released.

• Risks of Rumor and Rhetoric: The vacuum of information led to rampant online speculation and finger-pointing, increasing incendiary rhetoric and polarization.

  “I’m so concerned that the longer we go, some of this really incendiary rhetoric that we’ve been seeing on social media and elsewhere is just going to keep on churning."
  — Odette Youssef [03:17]

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2. Escalating Wars Abroad: Israel, Hamas, Qatar and Russia-Ukraine-NATO (04:05 – 06:21)

• Middle East: Israel targeted Hamas leaders in an airstrike on Doha, Qatar—a U.S. ally and venue for ceasefire negotiations.

  • This is a major violation of Qatari sovereignty and undermines U.S.-backed peace efforts.
  • Israeli action perceived as defiance against President Trump's wish for de-escalation.

• Europe: Russian drones violated Polish (NATO) airspace; NATO scrambled fighter jets in response.

  • Seen as Russia testing NATO and U.S. resolve.
  • So far, reactions have been muted, with no significant repercussions.

  “It’s a clear escalation... carried out by leaders who are going directly against the wishes of President Trump, seemingly because they think they can and there won’t be any repercussions.”
  — Greg Myre [04:48]

  “Qatar is sort of the Switzerland of the Middle East — no mountains, no snow, but it’s a safe space where people can get together and talk.”
  — Greg Myre [06:11]

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3. Reflecting on 9/11: Intelligence Failures and Institutional Changes (06:21 – 12:06)

• Greg Myre recalls pre-9/11 reporting: Noteworthy is the early identification of Ramzi Yousef (1993 WTC bomber) and his links to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (9/11 mastermind).

  • The CIA had ample clues about targets, methods (using airliners as weapons), and individuals involved before 9/11, but failed to "connect the dots."
  • Seizure of Yousef’s computer in 1995 revealed plots eerily similar to what would later occur.

  “Here in 1995, we knew the potential target... the method... and the family... who would go on to mastermind the 9/11 attack six years later.”
  — Greg Myre [08:04]

• Post-9/11 Institutional Responses:

  • Creation of Department of Homeland Security, Director of National Intelligence, and the Counterterrorism Center.
  • Shift of the CIA from purely intelligence work to paramilitary operations.
  • Initially, focus was on foreign terrorist organizations, but the U.S. also faced major domestic extremist threats (e.g., Oklahoma City Bombing, Timothy McVeigh).
  • Today, the “most lethal and persistent threat” on U.S. soil is white supremacist extremism, per the FBI.

  “The threat landscape here in the homeland today is vastly more complex than it was 24 years ago.”
  — Odette Youssef [11:38]

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4. The Politicization and Restructuring of Intelligence (12:54 – 15:48)

• Widespread reshuffling and cuts: Under President Trump, the intelligence community faces abrupt leadership changes, the slashing of staff by nearly half at the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, and frequent dismissals of top officials whose estimates contradict the administration’s public stances.

• Dilemma for career officials: Intelligence staffers face pressure to align resources and even threat definitions with Trump’s political agenda, complicating objective analysis.

  “As a career official in intelligence, do you really want to put your whole career and reputation on the line by writing something you may believe, but it’s at odds with something that President Trump has stated publicly?”
  — Greg Myre [14:07]

• Changing definitions: Trump’s administration expands the official definition of terrorism to include drug cartels and others—shifting counterterrorism resources and priorities.

  “There’s a lot of questions right now from the counterterrorism world on this sort of reorientation of the definition of terrorism that we’re seeing from the administration.”
  — Odette Youssef [15:12]

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5. OSINT (Open Source Intelligence) Roundtable (15:48 – 18:30)

• Greg Myre on Tom Hanks and "Woke" Backlash:
  Tom Hanks, known for his advocacy for veterans, had a West Point award cancelled after President Trump criticized him as “too woke.”

  “President Trump got wind of this, complained publicly and loudly … West Point Alumni association announced… cancelling the ceremony.”
  — Greg Myre [16:13]

• Odette Youssef on Violent Extremism in Pop Culture:
  Fashion brand Shein modeled a T-shirt with accused murderer Luigi Mangioni, possibly through an AI-generated image. Mangioni’s image and persona have become a bizarre pop culture fixture, including musicals and bumper stickers.

  "I continue to be fascinated by the ways that Mangioni seems to have kind of captured the culture.”
  — Odette Youssef [17:36]

• Mary Louise Kelly on NATO Article 4:
  Poland invoked Article 4 after Russian drones entered its airspace. Unlike Article 5 (the bedrock of NATO’s collective defense), Article 4 is about urgent consultations, signaling a heightened seriousness among NATO members.

  “…it conveys a seriousness of concern about what the response should be…”
  — Mary Louise Kelly [18:30]

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6. Interview: Senator Alyssa Slotkin

(21:25 – 29:06)

Slotkin’s Background and Perspective

• Personal Impact of 9/11: Slotkin was a 25-year-old student seven miles from the World Trade Center when the attacks occurred, later joining the CIA and serving at the White House and Pentagon.

  “It completely changed my life. I mean, top to bottom, that is.”
  — Alyssa Slotkin [21:34]

• On current institutional upheaval:
  Expresses grave concern over the politicization of intelligence and the “slashing and burning” of agencies under Trump.

  “I can’t tell you how dangerous I think it is to politicize intelligence… it’s very hard to see some of these moves as anything other than attempting to shape the intelligence community to the will of Donald Trump.”
  — Alyssa Slotkin [23:57]

• On the need for reform:
  Advocates for rethinking and improving the U.S. intelligence and defense institutions instead of simply reverting to pre-Trump status quo.

  “The status quo was not working.”
  — Alyssa Slotkin [25:13]

Slotkin’s View of the Biggest National Security Threat

• Primary threat is domestic, not foreign:
  Cites the decline of the middle class and resulting social instability as the greatest threat to U.S. security—driving polarization, resentment, and ultimately violence.

  “The existential threat to the country is not coming from abroad. It’s the shrinking middle class at home and what that does to our stability here.”
  — Alyssa Slotkin [25:44]

• On opportunity for change:
  Emphasizes the need for rapid Defense Department innovation and the dangers of bureaucratic inertia compared to China’s agility.

On the Loss and Hope Since 9/11

• Loss of unity:
  Slotkin mourns the loss of national unity and decency evident after 9/11, contrasting it with today’s fractured political climate.

  “We were all on the same team. And I’m so glad that I got to be there in that moment to see that. And I’m so concerned with how far we feel from that moment.”
  — Alyssa Slotkin [27:56]

• Enduring hope:
  Finds optimism in the “80% middle” of ordinary Americans (“Team Normal”) who wish to escape the grip of political extremes.

  “They just want Team Normal… that gives me hope.”
  — Alyssa Slotkin [28:30]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Here in 1995, we knew the potential target... the method... and the family... who would go on to mastermind the 9/11 attack six years later."
  — Greg Myre [08:04]

• "The most lethal and persistent threat on the homeland, according to former FBI Director Christopher Wray, has been violent white supremacists."
  — Odette Youssef [11:38]

• "As a career official in intelligence, do you really want to put your whole career and reputation on the line by writing something... at odds with something that President Trump has stated publicly?"
  — Greg Myre [14:07]

• "Oftentimes I think Trump has the wrong answer to the right question. It's the way he goes about it."
  — Alyssa Slotkin [24:53]

• "I really believe that the existential threat to the country is not coming from abroad. It's the shrinking middle class at home and what that does to our stability here."
  — Alyssa Slotkin [25:44]

• "They just want Team Normal... and that gives me hope."
  — Alyssa Slotkin [28:30]

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Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment/Event | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------| | 02:40 | Discussion of Charlie Kirk shooting | | 04:05 | Escalation in Israel-Hamas and Russia-Ukraine wars | | 06:21 | 9/11’s legacy and intelligence failures | | 12:54 | Cuts and politicization in U.S. intelligence | | 15:48 | OSINT (Open Source Intelligence) segment | | 21:25 | Senator Alyssa Slotkin interview begins | | 25:44 | Slotkin outlines domestic threats | | 27:56 | Reflections on unity and hope since 9/11 |

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Overall Tone

The conversation is urgent, clear-headed, and realistic, confronting dangerous trends at home and abroad while reflecting a deep sense of institutional memory and concern for the future. Senator Slotkin’s interview is personal yet analytically sharp, echoing the podcast’s theme of grappling with complex threats amid upheaval and uncertainty.

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Listeners come away with an understanding of:

• The fast-developing crises in U.S. foreign policy arenas
• The disturbing rise in political violence domestically
• The profound shifts in U.S. intelligence and national security since 9/11
• The dangers of politicized intelligence and threats to objectivity
• Why the stability of the American middle class is, according to experts, the foundational security challenge of our time

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For questions, feedback, or topics, listeners are encouraged to contact the show at [e-mail].

Transcript

[Greg Myre]

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[Odette Youssef]

It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith here with a Saturday bonus episode for you. It's the most recent episode of NPR's new National Security podcast, sources and Methods, where NPR reporters who cover the military, State Department and spy agencies break down the biggest natsec news of the week. We're going to share these shows each Saturday for a couple of weeks because their show is a lot like ours. We think you'll like it, and you might even hear us on there from time to time. New episodes drop every Thursday, and you can follow the show wherever you listen to this one. So here you go. It's Sources and Methods, the new national security podcast from npr.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Being in New York on that day, even in a place as cynical as New York City, people had their flags out. They were decent to each other. We were all on the same team. And I'm so concerned with how far we feel from that moment.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

An Israeli airstrike inside US Ally Qatar, Russian drones in NATO airspace, meaning big escalations in the two big wars that have dominated U.S. foreign policy and resources lately. Very different wars than the one that arguably began 24 years ago today with the attacks of September 11th. This is Sources and Methods from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Every Thursday, we discuss the biggest national security stories of the week. Later this episode, we will do that with Senator Alyssa Slotkin, who sits on the Armed Services Committee. But first, our regular roundtable with my colleagues from NPR's NATSAC, covering the military, the State Department, the intel community. Today we have Odette Youssef on the extremism beat for npr. Odette, welcome. This is your debut on the pod.

[Odette Youssef]

I'm glad to be here. Thanks.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And back with us again just recently and very happily safely returned from your latest tour in our Ukraine bureau. Greg Myre, welcome back. Welcome home.

[Greg Myre]

Good to be back.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I will note your regular beat is the intel community, which has been in all kinds of upheaval since you left. Security clearance is yanked, people fired. I'm sure it will calm down completely now that you're home.

[Greg Myre]

Sources are telling me that I'm a little skeptical.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I would be, too. Well, this week had already served up half a dozen significant NAT sex stories to discuss. And then Wednesday night, the conservative activist Charlie Kirk was shot and killed while Speaking on a college campus in Utah. So, Odette, I wanna start there because domestic extremism is your beat. There's still a lot we don't know at this hour on Thursday afternoon. We are taping now at just past noon. We do know we're l a country where political violence represents a growing threat to national security. So what questions are on your mind as you track what just happened in Utah?

[Odette Youssef]

So obviously the question is, who did it? You know, we are at this time of taping still without a suspect in custody. There were two arrests yesterday, but both of those individuals were released. And so we're really still in the dark about who's responsible and any motivation that there may have been. And I think what's been very concerning to see is that in this time that's elapsed, this vacuum of any knowledge, there's been a lot of finger pointing and a lot of assumptions made about who's responsible for the political violence. And so I'm just very concerned that the longer we go, some of this really incendiary rhetoric that we've been seeing on social media and elsewhere is just going to keep on churning.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Let's head overseas because I mentioned escalations in two wars. To recap, on Tuesday, Israel attempted to kill Hamas leaders in an airstrike in Doha, Qatar. Qatar, again, a US Ally that has been hosting for years now cease fire negotiations between Israel and Hamas. That's war number one. Then Wednesday, NATO announced it had scrambled fighter jets to take down Russian drones that were violating Polish airspace. Russia, of course, is actively attacking Ukraine, which is just across the border from Poland. Greg Myre, you have been reporting on both these wars on the ground in recent months. Middle east and Ukraine, a top line takeaway or two on this week's news.

[Greg Myre]

Yeah, it's a clear escalation carried out by leaders who are going directly against the wishes of President Trump, seemingly because they think they can and there won't be any repercussions. Russia's Vladimir Putin has stepped up attacks on Ukraine. I saw that firsthand when I was in Ukraine. Now he's sent at least nine drones into Poland. Seemingly is a way to see how the US And NATO might respond. And so far they just say they're.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Assessing testing the waters or testing the airspace, as the case may be. Move.

[Greg Myre]

That's what it seems so far. And in the Middle East, Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahu unleashed this airstrike in Qatar as Hamas leaders gather to discuss a peace plan backed by the Trump White House. Trump says he wants to end both these wars. But leaders are stepping up, expanding attacks, and so far they're not facing any consequences.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Still, a lot of things we don't know about both. I'll inject a little on the ground reporting. Our colleague EA Batrawi is in Doha. In Qatar, she went to try to see the Hamas residents and the locations that Israel hit. She couldn't get there because it's all cordoned off. But she said, I'm looking around, and it's right in the middle of a neighborhood and embassies and schools. Speaks to the real violation this was of Qatar and, as you say, of how President Trump appears to have hoped that things would go.

[Greg Myre]

Yeah, and Qatar is sort of the Switzerland of the Middle East. No mountains, no snow, but it's a safe space where people can get together and talk. That's sort of been Qatar's deal.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And we'll see whether they want to continue hosting those talks and where that goes in the days to come. So let me spin both of us. These wars in Ukraine and Gaza are the international national security crises du jour. But the three of us are sitting here speaking on the anniversary of 9 11. And so I want to spend our time today looking at the long shadow of those attacks, how we got here, and I want to back us up. Greg, I think I'm right in saying that many moons ago you were based in Pakistan, where you could kind of sort of start seeing the outlines of what might have been coming in the late 90s. Just tell us where you were, what you were seeing.

[Greg Myre]

Yeah, I was based in Islamabad in 1995. And one morning I woke up and we start hearing reports that Ramzi Yousef, who was accused of the 1993 bombing of the World Trade center, where a large vehicle was packed with explosives and killed six people, wounded a thousand. So a major attack at the World Trade Center. He was accused, he was captured. It was about a mile from my home in Islamabad, a little shopping near a shopping area where I went to often. So I raced over there, asked some guys, you know, have you seen this guy? And they said, yeah, he's living at that guest house, the Tsukasa Guest House. And they said he went to that video store. So I raced to the video store and said, could we see this guy's video rental card? And they pulled it right out, knew exactly who he was. And I swear to you, the last video, the last movie Ramzi Yousef rented before he was captured was fugitive among us.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

You couldn't make it up.

[Greg Myre]

Absolutely not. But There were some even more important developments coming out of that. They seized his computer and they found a plan to simultaneously blow up multiple US airliners. And it later emerged that his attack in 1993 on the world Trade center was funded by his uncle, a guy named Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who would go on to mastermind the 911 attack six years later. So here in 1995, we knew the potential target, the World Trade center, which had already been hit. He knew the method, using multiple airliners, US Commercial airliners, as weapons. And the family, Ramzi Yousef and his uncle, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And we know that Ramzi Yousef had bad taste in movies. But that's a sidebar. I mean, it's reminding me of all that was known in the late 90s. Then CIA Director George Tenet talked about going to the White House and trying to brief them and that his hair was on fire because of all the incoming. In the end, U.S. intelligence was not able to connect the dots. The 911 attacks happened. Greg, one more to you. And then, Odette, I want to bring you in, but you cover the CIA 24 years on. How has the agency changed in the wake of that massive intelligence failure that was the attacks of 9 11?

[Greg Myre]

Well, I think it's changed a couple times. But at that point, it was transformed from an agency that gathered and analyzed intelligence, something it had been doing really for a half century. It became this paramilitary force that was suddenly involved in fighting battles in the Middle east, capturing interrogating prisoners. It became a very different agency.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

The CIA was first into Afghanistan. They beat the Pentagon troops into Afghanistan after 9 11. Odette, jump in. Because what resulted after all those investigations and the hearings was suddenly this flood of money to combating terrorism. The whole US Government is suddenly geared up to fight Al Qaeda and Salafi JI and the definition of terrorism that took hold and where all that money was channeled. You have been reporting that maybe that was too narrow. Looking back. Explain.

[Odette Youssef]

I mean, it's so interesting because, you know, I think 911 really woke people up to sort of what's the capacity? What were the silos that were existing within the intelligence community? And it led to the creation of like, a whole new department, the Department of Homeland Security, an enormous federal agency.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Now, and the Director of National Intelligence and the Counterterrorism center, none of those existed.

[Odette Youssef]

The apparatus that was constructed right after 911 to protect the homeland was enormous. But the attention at the time really was on these foreign terrorist organizations. You know, that made sense at the time. But we also have to Remember that just two years after that World Trade center bombing that Greg referenced earlier, you know, back in 1995, Timothy McVeigh bombed the federal building in Oklahoma City. And so, you know, we have had throughout American history instances where there were threats here on the homeland against other Americans by Americans themselves. And what we've been seeing more recently is that there has been a rise in political violence in the United States. And the most lethal and persistent threat on the homeland, according to former FBI Director for Director Christopher Wray, has been violent white supremacists. And so it's sort of been one at the expense of the other. And I think one of the issues that we're really facing, the reality of today is that the threat landscape here in the homeland today is vastly more complex than it was 24 years ago.

[Greg Myre]

This week on Consider this, the shooting death of Charlie Kirk. He was seen as the future of the conservative movement. We will look at what he leaves behind. Plus the story of nine, 11 victims whose families are still waiting 24 years later for justice. Why they say the government is keeping them in the dark. Listen this week to consider this on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, it's Ian and Mike, the hosts of how to Do Everything. That's the show where we take your questions and find overqualified experts to answer them. Alex asked us to write his out of office email message, but we don't know how to write. So we called up US Poet Laureate Ada Limon.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Is this National Public Radio?

[Greg Myre]

Sort of. Technically, yes. Season two just dropped. Listen to the how to Do Everything podcast from npr.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Military commanders, intelligence officials, diplomatic power players, they know things you may not about where the world is headed. And we will pull back the curtain on what they're thinking on sources and methods. NPR's new National Security podcast. Our team will help you understand America's shifting role in the world. Listen to sources and Methods from npr. So let me bring us up to today. All of the work that was done post 9 11, all of the institutions that were created are now in a state of huge flux. The National Security Council staff has been slashed. The director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard is trying to cut her staff by nearly half. I could go on. Who makes sure that relevant information is going to get to the people and persuade the White House? This is important. We need to pay attention to it now, right?

[Greg Myre]

Well, that's a very big tough question to answer. But every day the president does get a presidential daily brief, and that is run by The Office of the Director of National Intelligence. And Tulsi Gabbard, therefore, is responsible for that.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And that continues. But she's going to have half the number of people standing behind her now.

[Greg Myre]

That's true. And it's also a question of what direction she provides. The president might get a list of a half dozen things that the intelligence community thinks are important on that particular day, but we've already seen very clear instances of top national security officials being dismissed because assessments about Iran or Venezuela are at odds with what President Trump has been saying publicly. So, as a career official in intelligence, do you really want to put your whole career and reputation on the line by writing something you may believe, but it's at odds with something that President Trump has stated publicly?

[Mary Louise Kelly]

You just mentioned Venezuela, which is making me, of course, think of this strike that obliterated what the Trump administration says was a Venezuelan drug boat a few days ago. Trump has defended that strike and claimed that the people on that boat were terrorists. Which prompts a question to you, Odette. Is the, you know, in 2025, is there agreement on what terrorism is?

[Odette Youssef]

No. I mean, there's a lot of questions right now from the counterterrorism world on this sort of reorientation of the definition of terrorism that we're seeing from the administration. Drug cartels have not traditionally fallen under the ambit of national security work. I mean, that's been typically a law enforcement matter. And so there's, you know, concern that I'm hearing about, well, what is this going to mean when it comes to allocation of resources at a time when the counterterrorism, when the terrorism landscape is more complex than it's ever been?

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Yeah. Now, I'm going to let the two of you go before my interview with Senator Slotkin. But first, I want to talk through some osint. That is open source intelligence. That is the way we usually wrap this part of the show. Osint, meaning kernels of intelligence, sometimes little tiny crumbs that are hidden in plain sight but that have caught our eye or ear this week. Greg, go first.

[Greg Myre]

Tom Hanks.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay, we're back to movies.

[Greg Myre]

Yes. If you're familiar with his screen career, you may have noticed he's played some US Troops over the years in Saving Private Ryan and in Forrest Gump. And off screen, he's done an awful lot, been very involved in supporting U.S. troops and veterans. So the West Point Alumni association announced that they were going to give him a big annual award for somebody who's not a graduate of West Point, but has done A lot to serve the US Military. President Trump got wind of this, complained publicly and loudly, saying Tom Hanks is way too woke that he has supported Democratic candidates over the years. And the West Point Alumni association announced that they were, in fact, canceling the ceremony.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Really? Has Tom Hanks said anything?

[Greg Myre]

I have not seen any comment from Tom Hanks on this.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Interesting.

[Greg Myre]

But we will stay tuned.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

All right, Odette, what you got?

[Odette Youssef]

I have something at the strange intersection of violent extremism and fashion. Last week, the fast fashion brand Shein had to remove an image on its website for a T shirt that it was selling that appeared to be modeled by Luigi Mangione. You may remember Mangioni is the man that's been charged with killing the United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson late last year.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Right.

[Odette Youssef]

You know, my guess is that it was AI generated. Sheehan attributed this image to a third party vendor. But I continue to be fascinated by the ways that Mangione seems to have kind of captured the culture.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Yeah, I was gonna ask, why would anyone want a Luigi Mangioni T shirt? Why would that be fashionable?

[Odette Youssef]

Well, you know, I think he's been getting a lot of fan mail in prison or in jail just because of his appearance. But, you know, there's also playing in San Francisco, Luigi the Musical. I don't know about you all, but I've seen on cars just driving around Luigi campaign bumper stickers like it's a different thing that seems to be happening around his legacy than I have seen in my lifetime around any other person that's been accused of a crime like that.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

The strange intersection, indeed, of fashion and extremism. All right, I'm not sure I can top either of those, but I will inject into this mix NATO Article 4, which I'm raising because I don't think I could have told you what NATO Article 4 was until this week. We all talk a lot about NATO Article 5, which is the collective defense, the cornerstone of the alliance. But this week, Poland invoked Article 4 after, as we discussed these Russian drones crossing into Polish airspace. So I was trying to bone up fast. What is Article 4? What does that mean? To invoke it? So we called someone who should know who sat in meetings on this, Rose Gottemoller. She is a former Deputy Secretary General of NATO. And she said, well, it's a way to very quickly gather members to consult in the event of an urgent security situation. And I pushed her on that a little bit because they're all in Brussels anyway. Couldn't they get together or just hop on a call without invoking Article 4 of the NATO treaty. And she said, look, it's, you know, it conveys a seriousness of concern about what the response should be. So there you go. I offer it up. Next time either of you have a family crisis, you can tell them you are invoking Article 4 and you can have an urgent security summit at the family dinner table. NPR national security correspondent Greg Myhrey, NPR domestic extremism correspondent Odette Youssef making her debut on Sources and Methods. Thanks to you both.

[Odette Youssef]

Thank you.

[Greg Myre]

Sure thing, Mary Louise.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And after a short break, my inter with Senator Alyssa Slatkin. Sources and methods, the crown jewels of the intelligence community, Shorthand for how do we know what's real? Who told us? If you have those answers, you're on the inside and NPR wants to bring you there. From the Pentagon to the State Department to spy agencies, listen to understand what's really happening and what it means for you. Sources and Methods, the new national security podcast from npr.

[Greg Myre]

On the Throughline podcast from npr, immigration enforcement might be more visible now, but this moment didn't begin with President Trump's second inauguration or even his first, a series from Throughline about how immigration became political and a cash cow. Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast on.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

How to do Everything.

[Greg Myre]

We take your questions and find phenomenal experts to answer them because we love you. Elizabeth asked us, how do I exercise while I'm in my car? And because we love Elizabeth, we rang up our favorite bodybuilder turned actor turned governor turned actor. Hello, Arnold, hello. We're here to talk to you today from NPR. Very nice. Season two just dropped. Listen to how to do everything from NPR.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

When the Plains hit the World Trade Center 24 years ago, Alyssa Slotkin was seven miles away, 25 years old, a grad student at Columbia University.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

The smell of that, the burning buildings and that very sort of toxic chemically smell that was just hanging over New York for weeks, if not months. And it completely changed my life. I mean, top to bottom, that is.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Slotkin speaking to the Washington Post. She told the paper that the 911 attacks led her to a job at the CIA, later at the White House, the Pentagon. Her two decade national security career evolved into a political one. Alyssa Slotkin is now Senator Slotkin. The Michigan Democrat serves today on the Armed Services, Homeland Security and Veterans Affairs Committee. Senator, welcome to Sources and Methods.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Thanks for having me.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So when I started mapping out earlier this week what I wanted to ask you, I was definitely going to start with Israel's attack on Hamas leadership in Doha. And then Russian drones flew into Poland, and NATO scrambled fighter jets to shoot them down. And suddenly we were watching NATO engaging enemy targets in NATO airspace for the first time. And then in Utah, in our country's latest horror of political violence, the conservative activist Charlie Kirk was shot and killed. I find it hard some days to wake up and know where to start. And I wonder if you feel that from your perch in the Senate.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Yeah, I mean, certainly. I think I'm used to that in the national security context, where you can't control events that are happening abroad. I think it's the combination of those with just the events that are going on inside the country just every single day, something new and different. It certainly feels saturating. And I know a lot of people have, frankly, just kind of have decided they're going on a media diet, which you can't do.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

No, no, no. Nor can I. It's the fire hose every day. So the institutions that U.S. intelligence and national security has to deal with, these are the institutions that were created in the wake of 9, 11. And now the Trump administration is working to reshape many of those institutions, pushing through, for example, a nearly 50% cut at the Director of National Intelligence on her staff, pushing out the leaders of the National Security Agency, the Defense Intelligence Agency. I could go on. What do you make of the current upheaval in the intelligence community in which you used to serve?

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Yeah, I mean, look, it's difficult to watch. I can't tell you how dangerous I think it is to politicize intelligence. And, you know, it's very hard to see some of these moves as anything other than attempting to shape the intelligence community to the will of Donald Trump. I believe that to be dangerous for the security of the United States. You know, if there's a threat coming from abroad or, you know, something happening, you have to call balls and strikes on that or else people can get, you know, deeply hurt.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I will note that Tulsi Gabbard, the Director of National Intelligence, sees this totally the other way around. She says she is trying to get politics out of intelligence, that she's trying to restore the intelligence of the intelligence community. I wonder how fine a line it feels like you are walking as an elected U.S. senator and a Democrat when you criticize the Trump administration. Does that risk wading into the politics of it all?

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Well, but the thing is, is oftentimes I think Trump has the wrong answer to the right question. It's the way he goes about it. The wholesale slashing and burning of, you know, things and organizations because he didn't like what they did in the last administration.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So you're not saying, hey, we couldn't do this better. You're saying this isn't the right approach?

[Alyssa Slotkin]

I would say even further, I think, with Trump doing what he's doing, let's actually take this as a moment not to just snap back to the same system we had before he came in, but take it as a moment to do a little rethinking of how we are organized as an intelligence community and a Defense Department and other issues as well. I don't like the Democratic response that's like, just maintain status quo. The status quo was not working.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

What do you see as the biggest national security threat facing our country today?

[Alyssa Slotkin]

I really believe that the existential threat to the country is not coming from abroad. It's the shrinking middle class at home and what that does to our stability here. Explain, if you want to understand why we are at this moment in our history, this fractious, authoritarian moment where people, Americans, are turned against each other. I mean, look at what just happened to Charlie Kirk. I mean, if you want to understand, you know, why we are so polarized, to me, it is about the fact that just more and more Americans do not feel like they can save every month and live the American dream. And. And when you do that, when you can't provide for your kids what was provided to you, you feel shame, you feel anger, you feel cornered, and you start looking for someone to blame, and that is almost always someone who doesn't look like you or talk like you or pray like you.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So I was going to ask, because I hear you being critical of the approach that the Trump administration is taking, but you've also argued this is a moment of huge opportunity. Like, give me an example. Sure.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

So we understand that it is important that we are, you know, Americans, maintain leadership roles in the world. We know we've made a lot of mistakes. You know, if you're thinking about a different way of doing what we need to do to be postured for the future, I think we gotta change the Defense Department. I think that our way of taking 12 years to go from idea for a new weapon system to actually fielding it doesn't work for the modern age. I think we have a problem with adopting technology fast enough, and that is a real threat to us when China can move, you know, from idea to fielding in five years.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So circle back to that pretty morning in New York. Obviously, what happened on 911 was horrific, but in the days that followed, the whole world stood with the United States and Americans pulled together, set aside our political differences, which I'm describing that, and it sounds like a time capsule from a different planet. What, if anything, remains of that moment? What gives you hope? Yeah.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Gosh, I think about that moment. I thought about it a lot today because even in a place as cynical as New York City, people had their flags out. They were decent to each other. We were all on the same team. And I'm so glad that I got to be there in that moment to see that. And I'm so concerned with how far we feel from that moment. Look, what gives me hope is that I go home every weekend and the vast majority of Michiganders live in that 80% middle that don't scream on the Internet, that don't, you know, want to hurt their neighbors when they happen to disagree. They just want Team Normal. I grew up, my dad's a lifelong Republican. My mom was a lifelong Democrat. It was totally normal when we grew up. And a lot of Michiganders really think about that time and wish for that time because we're very mixed politically. And that gives me hope that my practical, reasonable constituents get exhausted looking at the extremes and just want something normal.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

To find our way back to the.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Middle, to find our way back. That keeps me buoyed.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Democratic Senator Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan, as you heard, thank you for stopping by. Thank you. That's our show for today. A quick note that you can email us at Sources and [e-mail] that is sources and methods all spelled out, no spaces. And the link is in our episode notes. Now we do love to hear from you, send us your feedback, ideas for topics, your reaction to anything we talk about here. It is all very much appreciated. Something else we would appreciate as a brand new podcast is for you to rate and review us on whatever platform you use to listen. That actually goes a long way toward helping new listeners find us. Now, if you're not the rate and review type, we get it. We would settle for just telling a friend who you think will like the show. We are back next Thursday with another new episode. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Thank you for listening to Sources and Methods from npr.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Here at Life Kit, we take advice seriously. We bring you evidence based recommendations. And to do that, we talk with researchers and experts on all sorts of topics because we have the same questions you do, like what's really in my shampoo? Or should I let my kid quit soccer? Or what should I do with my savings in uncertain economic times you can listen to NPR's Life Kit in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. What's made you happy as of late on Pop Culture Happy Hour, We've been talking about the things that have made us happy in the pop culture universe for the past 15 years. Whether it's a blockbuster or deliciously bad.

[Odette Youssef]

Reality TV, the newest shows, dramas and.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Reboots, we're here to keep your spirits high. Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.