B (3:23)

This back and forth this weekend did come out of left field a little bit. For people who haven't been following it. Can you give me a little bit more context on kind of the different ways that Trump and the Pope have kind of bumped heads?

D (3:35)

Sure. I would say that this has been brewing or on a simmer for quite a few months now and boiled over on Sunday night. I think that Trump has seen some remarks and actions of the Pope and Catholic bishops in the United States as opposing him. So, for instance, last year, last fall, the US Bishops passed a resolution basically calling into question or calling for greater humanity in the way that the Trump administration has gone about immigration enforcement. So I could see Trump saying that this was Catholics opposing him. Just a few months ago, the US Bishops issued a friend of the court brief opposing Trump's birthright citizenship case in the Supreme Court, saying that this is an issue of human dignity. So we have a couple of issues there related to immigration and then much more sort of internationally. In the last few months with Venezuela and Iran, the Pope has spoken out quite forcefully about peace. The Pope has not said, I oppose Donald Trump. What he has done is held peace vigils, talked about the importance of peace, talked about the importance of humanity. Last week, when Trump was threatening to destroy Iranian civilization, the Pope spoke out very strongly about how this was unacceptable to talk about the destruction of civilizations and that he, as the Pope, thought it was his message to talk about peace. And if that feels like to the president he is opposing his policies, that is what is going on. Not that the Pope was saying, I dislike Donald Trump. He has rarely actually spoken his name.

C (5:11)

That's absolutely right. And what Jason is talking about there, I think, has been one of the most notable features of this back and forth, because it's, it's. You couldn't characterize this as a feud. Right. Because this is not two men trading blows. This is Donald Trump trying to throw punches and Pope Leo XIV operating on an entirely different level. Donald Trump calling the Pope weak on crime and weak on nuclear weapons. It's language that can sound so funny to your ear because the Pope is not a politician. That is the kind of language you use to, to strike at a political opponent. But as Jason is saying here, Pope Leo seems to be really very intentionally making this about gospels, humanity, peace, about very particular Christian and Catholic values, which is totally a different wavelength than Donald Trump is operating on.

D (6:10)

What I hear going on there is this idea that President Trump doesn't quite understand, the idea of the election of the Pope. He's not elected for just four years or eight years. Popes often spend decades in office and they are not interested in popularity polls or any kind of poll for that matter. They're elected once, forever, and they don't think of themselves as being weak or strong or having the support of this constituency or that constituency. They never have to stand for re election. And their timeline is more like eternity than it is the next election cycle, the midterms, or the next presidential election.

C (6:51)

The idea, I believe, to many of the cardinals is this is about God and that there is some sort of holy presence in the election of the Pope. It is very different from how a presidential election works.

D (7:05)

That's exactly right. You know, I was in Rome about a year ago covering that election, and one of the things that really struck me was that very idea that this was a religious act, this was a liturgical act, this was a devotional act. Yes, there were conversations about what the Church needed, so there were some political considerations, but it is not thought of as a Are we going to do the most popular thing right now? It is, are we going to do the most eternally truthful thing, the most long lasting, important thing for the Catholic Church? And so the idea that you would conflate the vagaries of American politics with the millennias old traditions within the Catholic Church of elections. Yes, the word election is used in both instances, both politics and in the church, but they really mean very, very different things. Now, some Americans may pray about who they're going to vote for, but I don't think they approach it in necessarily the same way that the cardinals were thinking of it as at least the many cardinals that I heard talk about it and the several I interviewed when I was in Rome a year ago.

B (8:08)

I mean, have we seen other members of American politics, Danielle, speak out about this? Or how are other people in American polit Talking about this ongoing kind of. I don't want to call it a feud because as you said, it's kind of a. It doesn't seem like exactly the right word for it. But whatever. Whatever we want to call it.

C (8:24)

What's been most notable is especially to watch how Republicans and the conservative commentariat have responded to this. And Donald Trump, as we have said innumerable times, owns this Republican Party. He has reshaped it the way he has wanted to. And so when there is any sort of vociferous outcry against him, that is notable. And there has been that. This time you heard again, I mentioned Riley Gaines. There's been Megan Kelly, I can think of there. There's been any number of people on social media who have, you know, podcasts who have come out and said very firmly, we don't like that image he posted, or we don't like what he is saying about the Pope. But there was one back and forth that I think is really telling, which is then Donald Trump first deleted. We should say that Jesus, like, figure image that he put up. Then he said in an interview with CBS News, well, maybe I'm not such a fan of Riley Gaines. And she then put up a post on X saying, hey, it's amazing that he deleted that. I thought it missed the mark. But, you know, I still support Donald Trump. I mean, he still owns this party is what I'm saying. So even if there is this outcry, I'm not sure how long lasting it's gonna be.

B (9:47)

Right. I mean, I feel like we even saw this with how the vice president, J.D. vance, who's a practicing Catholic, talked about this on Fox News last night.

E (9:54)

I certainly think that in some cases, it would be best for the Vatican to stick to matters of morality, to stick to matters of, you know, what's going on in the Catholic Church. And let the President United States stick to dictating American public policy.

C (10:10)

Yeah. And J.D. vance also said that he thought that Trump just meant that AI image post as a joke and that it was just a joke that landed poorly. So JD Vance is trying to create some distance between what Trump does and what the Pope does here. But of course, issues of morality. The Pope clearly sees things like war and deportations as moral issues.

D (10:30)

I mean, he uses the words peace and human dignity in what he talks about. The Pope is speaking to matters of morality. He is not talking about policy, he's talking about morality. But I think that the Trump administration views any critique as talking about politics. Whereas, you know, religious Leaders, especially the Pope, rarely goes after a person by name. I can rarely think of that happening. It's much more you would speak to these broad ideas, morality, peace and justice, war, human dignity, things like that.

B (11:07)

I mean, Jason, how has the pope responded to these attacks from the president?

D (11:12)

Well, the Pope said he was not afraid of the president, that he is a religious leader, not a political leader, that his focus is on the gospel, on peace and human dignity. Here's some of what the pope said during his travels in Africa this week.

E (11:26)

I will continue to speak out loudly against war, looking to promote peace, promoting dialogue and multilateral relationships among the states to look for just solutions to the problems. Too many people are suffering in the world today. Too many innocent people are being killed.

D (11:41)

Too many innocent people being killed, he says there. And he is not worried about being viewed as weak or not weak. He views himself as a person who, you know, wants to focus on and draw the world's attention to peace. In fact, just before this happened Saturday night, the pope held a global peace vigil. Now, I can see how the Pope could view this as I am speaking about peace. And in the same week that he held this vigil, he said people should contact their elected leaders and tell them to also focus on peace. But can you see how President Trump could see a peace vigil as an act against him because of his actions in Iran? All right.

B (12:27)

Well, we're going to take a quick break. More on all of this in just a moment.

F (12:32)

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B (13:18)

And we're back. So, Jason, I do feel like this is the first time a US President has called a pope weak on crime. But I'm curious to get deeper than that and just kind of have you. I'm wondering if you could talk me through what a typical relationship between a US President and the Pope has looked like before.

D (13:39)

Well, you know, I think it's never a perfect fit and it doesn't really fit into the way that we think of American politics being liberal and conservative, left and right. I think of abortion, you could say the Catholic Church is conservative on that issue. But if you think of the death penalty, then you think the Catholic Church is liberal on that issue. Poverty, it might be considered liberal on that issue. Peace, it might be considered liberal. So I think that that relationship is never like Democrats always go with the Pope and Republicans always go against the Pope or vice versa. It's been very tense under Trump given the war in Iran and actions in Venezuela. But it's also, I think a lot of it has to do with immigration enforcement, which the church for years has been very concerned about, in part because the Catholic Church in America is a largely immigrant church. You know, huge percentages of the Catholic Church are either themselves immigrants or first generation Americans. You know, I think that over the last, say, 50, 60 years, because of the preeminence of abortion as a political issue, it could seem like the Catholic Church, the Pope and the president, depending on the political party, have either been more or less aligned. But I think it's really important to think about this much broader in terms of issues like the death penalty, like poverty, like peace, like health care. So I like to say it's never a perfect fit. And I would say that the Catholic Church says it shouldn't be because the role of the Pope is to always speak the gospel, which is not going to fit with any one political party.

B (15:17)

Well. And I feel like this is not the first time that Trump has also butted heads with the Vatican. I Remember back in 2016, Pope Francis implied that President Trump or President Trump's policies were not really Christian. Talk a little bit more about the long history just with the Trump administration

D (15:36)

right back in 2016. When you recall in the campaign in 2016, Trump spent a lot of his time focusing on building the wall between Mexico and the United States. And at that time, Francis said a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be and not building bridges, is not Christian.

C (15:58)

I think that there's a contrast we can draw here if we want to look at other presidents relationships to popes, which is during the George W. Bush presidency. To bring this to another Republican president, a Christian president and a wartime president. He had an audience with Pope John Paul II during his presidency and John Paul II had an anti war message and he made some comments that also seemed to be about the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison. He, you know, disapproving of those abuses. George W. Bush did not react the way that Trump has reacted. He didn't lash out at the Pope. He actually, after the fact, spoke pretty respectfully of the conversation they had. And I think that that, as Jason is saying, it's true, they don't agree on everything. They have different constituencies that they're thinking of, so to speak. But there has often been this sort of politeness of the utmost respect that they have from each other.

B (17:00)

Well, it feels like it also points to just this broader complexity that President Trump has about religion. Right.

C (17:06)

Yeah. I mean, the Trump relationship with religion is really complicated because, of course, you know, he's talked about attending a church, attending Norman Vincent Peale's church in Manhattan. You know, as president, as a public figure, he has never really even tried to portray himself as a regular churchgoer, as a very observant Christian. I mean, there was even that this one time on the campaign trail in 2016, speaking at the Christian Liberty University, when he attempted to refer to Scripture, and instead of calling the book of the Bible Second Corinthians, he called it two Corinthians, which seemed to betray a lack of familiarity with the good book. But Trump, his relationship with religion in politics is very much that religion is about politics. He has said before that I don't know how someone who's Christian can vote Democratic. And he also, when he talks about Christianity, he's talked about defending it from, you know, the politically correct crowd or from the liberals or from whatever opponent he is setting up. So when he brings up religion, it is not often in the context of belief and following certain values. It is very often about politics and how you're voting.

D (18:25)

And I would say that what he's used to is hearing only from the people of faith who agree with him, which is very different from what many other religious groups are saying about him. But I'm not sure that that sort of penetrates his worldview quite often. And I think that, you know, it's one thing if, say, the head of the Episcopal Church in the United States speaks out against him, which he probably doesn't pay great attention to. It's another thing when the Pope, leading a billion and a half Catholics around the world, starts to critique his policies, that he might start to pay attention in part because he might view himself on that same global stage where he's. He might not for a sort of smaller church leader, but also they're both Americans. And I think that he has made a lot of this idea that, like, well, I'm the American president and he's the American Pope. But the Pope has really arched his back against this idea. He's not the Pope of the Americans. He's the Pope of the global Catholic Church, who happens to have been born in the Chicago area. Now, I will say that almost every other time we've heard popes speak, we hear them through a translator. They're speaking Polish or they're speaking Spanish or Italian or sometimes even Latin. But when Pope Leo speaks in English, I think it resonates very differently with an American public to hear this guy with a Chicago accent talking about peace, talking about human dignity. You have the ear of the American people quite differently when you're speaking English to them than when you're speaking through a translator. So that is another thing that I think Trump is sort of trying to reconcile with or deal with these days. He himself, Trump, is speaking in English to the American people, but so is the Pope.

C (20:02)

And to bring this once more to American politics, Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination in the US Right now. So that is also a consideration that Trump may have in his head.

B (20:14)

Right?

D (20:14)

It's about 20% of the U.S. is Catholic.

B (20:17)

And, I mean, the evangelical Christian population polls show constantly that this is one of the more durable demographic groups as part of Trump's base. But I guess I wonder if this, like, conflict could endanger that support that has been pretty enduring from devout Christians.

C (20:33)

I generally don't think so when we're talking about white evangelicals, when pollsters ask people, do you identify as evangelical, I would argue that at this point, the word evangelical in a political context has lost a lot of its theological meaning. White evangelicals, at this point, it's a phrase that. That just carries with it a connotation of political conservatism, and in the Donald Trump era, a connotation of being maga. That Venn diagram, it's not a perfect circle, but it's. It. It's close to being a circle. But at any rate, in terms of whether this threatens his support, ever since Trump came onto the political scene, there have been questions by pundits, people outside the white evangelical world of are any of Trump's actions, whether it's foul language, his treatment of women, alleged or otherwise, deportations, will any of this turn Christians off? And that just has not happened yet, at least not among his white evangelical base. They love him. They view him as anointed and even protected by God. And that feeling really intensified after the assassination attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania, in 2024. A line you hear often from his supporters is, well, God has always used imperfect people and Trump is imperfect, but that's just what God does. So I would be hard pressed to imagine what blasphemous or sacrilegious thing Trump could do to alienate them because they just really stick with him so closely. The one thing I would add to that, though, is that Trump is weak right now politically. And a lot of the people who voted for him and who have approved of him in the past are not die hard maga. So if you see his low approval, the Iran war, which is not popular, the failure of peace talks, high gas prices, tariffs, any number of things that are not terribly popular, you might also look at his words against Pope, you might look at this Jesus image and that might add, if you are a person of Christian faith, that might add in your brain to this drip, drip, drip of things you do not appreciate about the president. So I can see this being another marginal thing, the drip, drip, drip of do I still like this president, yes or no?

D (22:54)

I would also point out that, you know, while this might not change the needle for white evangelicals, this might change the needle for Catholics who were much more evenly divided during the past election. It wasn't exactly 50 50, but it was pretty, pretty evenly divided a little bit more for Trump this time. But often Catholics vote the way the whole country votes, by a few percentage points, one way or the other. So if you're talking about a president who is down right now in the polls, it could make a difference among the 20% of Americans who are Catholic, who do vote and who might be turned off because of this.

C (23:32)

And even for those Christians who support Trump and might be upset by some of the things he's said or done, he has made religious freedom central to his agenda. Also, he has made appointing judges that agree with Christians on issues like abortion, for example, also central to his presidency and those constituents like that.

D (23:54)

All right.

B (23:54)

Well, we can leave it there for today. Thanks so much for joining us, Jason.

D (23:57)

Happy to be here.

B (23:58)

Tomorrow on the show, we'll talk about California, a governor's race that's been shaken up by Congressman Eric Swalwell's resignation. Do not miss it. Hit the follow button to listen wherever you get your podcast podcasts. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.

C (24:11)

I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover the White House.

B (24:13)

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.