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The NPR Politics Podcast
Trump Administration Interpretation Of Civil Rights Act Reshapes Public Schools
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- [00:00]
Corey Turner
This message comes from Carvana. Explore Carvana's quick and easy financing and browse thousands of car options, all within your budget and timeline. Get pre qualified now@carvana.com financing subject to credit approval. Additional terms and conditions may apply.
- [00:18]
Sarah McCammon
Hi, I'm Kristen. Hi, I'm Rachel.
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Domenico Montanaro
Hey, I'm Steven.
- [00:22]
Sarah McCammon
I'm Mary Catherine.
- [00:24]
Domenico Montanaro
I'm Griffin.
- [00:25]
Sarah McCammon
And I'm Amanda. And we just won bar trivia again.
- [00:28]
Domenico Montanaro
This is Nick.
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Sarah McCammon
Oh, Nick the host. The only thing we're more competitive about.
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Domenico Montanaro
Than winning is learning.
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Sarah McCammon
This podcast was recorded at 12:37pm Eastern Time on Friday, September 5, 2025. It's a lot of people in this group. Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but we'll continue to study our presidents and state capitals.
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Corey Turner
Enjoy the show.
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Sarah McCammon
Trivia is so much fun.
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Domenico Montanaro
Absolutely. I've been thinking about wanting to join a trivia team.
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Sarah McCammon
What's your trivia thing, Domenico? Is there like a special area?
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Domenico Montanaro
Well, I mean, politics, government, sports, 90s rap. Usually those are the areas I get five out of five in jeopardy. Geography.
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Sarah McCammon
Oh, very cool. Very cool. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover politics.
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Domenico Montanaro
And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.
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Sarah McCammon
And NPR education correspondent Cory Turner is here. Hey, Cory, good to have you.
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Corey Turner
Good to be here.
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Sarah McCammon
Today on the show, we're taking a look at how President Trump is changing the shape of K through 12 education from the steps the administration has taken to try to shut down the US Department of Education to fights over school funding nationwide. You know, Corey, what strikes you about the way the Trump administration is approaching the federal role in education?
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Corey Turner
I think there's a really interesting contradiction or tension in the Trump administration's approach here because on the one hand, as you said, you know, President Trump campaigned on the idea of closing the Education Department. He has said no shortage of terrible things about the department and what it does. And, and he has has been busy making good on that promise. We know the staff at the department is now roughly half the level it was in January. And we know behind the scenes they're working on carving out some of its responsibilities and trying to move them elsewhere. The tension comes from the fact that at the same time President Trump wants to close the department, he has shown no hesitation in wielding the power the department has in one really specific arena, and that is around the department's job in enforcing federal civil rights laws.
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Sarah McCammon
Yeah. And how is that working? How are they doing that?
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Corey Turner
Well, so they're basically using a Combination of the Civil Rights act of 1964 and specifically Title 6 in that law, which prohibits discrimination based on race, color and national origin. And they're using Title 9, which obviously prohibits sex discrimination and was meant to level the playing field for women and girls. What the administration is doing, though, is going after. We've seen them do this with colleges and universities, Harvard, Columbia, Brown. They're also doing this with school districts and even entire state departments of education. They're using these laws and sort of flipping them on their heads. So, for example, Title 6, which obviously 1964 was largely intended to help protect the rights of black Americans, especially in schools. What they're using Title 6 to do is to clamp down on diversity, equity and inclusion programs and to really punish school systems that the administration says are continuing to preference students of color over white students or Asian American students. And they're saying the same thing about Title 9. They're going after districts and states that have protections for transgender students, saying, look, you're discriminating against women and girls.
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Sarah McCammon
So he wants to give it less power, but he wants to use the power that the department has.
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Corey Turner
Yeah. And in really a more forceful way than we've seen in many administrations.
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Domenico Montanaro
And this is really all about Trump's agenda and how he wants to reshape the country on a culture war standpoint. The point is, and we've seen this with a lot of other things politically with Trump and what he's tried to do from a governing standpoint. If you agree with him, you know, it's all about states rights. If you don't, then the federal government's gonna come in and try to make you adopt that point of view.
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Sarah McCammon
Does this seem to be about actually changing policy, changing curriculum, changing the way schools do things, or is it more sort of backward looking, punishing schools that aren't aligning with the Trump administration's objectives?
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Corey Turner
That's a really good question. I think if you look at the way they're doing it, they're using these laws, namely Title 6 from the Civil Rights act and Title 9. They're. They're doing these really fast tracked investigations, investigations into, for example, Denver Public Schools because of their transgender student protections. And the superintendent of Denver sent me a statement a couple days ago saying the. The Education Department's investigation involved no interviews with folks on the ground there. It was quick and it felt like a power play. And you can see also in the judge's ruling, the federal judge in Boston's ruling in the Harvard case, she essentially said the same Thing that the administration was using Title 6. But Title 6 very clearly in law includes a process the government has to follow if it thinks a school is discriminating against students. And she said the Trump administration didn't follow any of these steps. It just jumped right to trying to cut more than $2 billion in federal research funding.
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Domenico Montanaro
You know, education used to be a relatively bipartisan issue. I mean, when it came to President Obama, for example, I mean, there were Republican governors who would say that they disagreed with him on a lot of things, but that they felt like they could work with him on education. Part of that was because Obama was more open to, you know, charter schools, for example, for decreasing some union rights to be able to get those created. And, you know, we have to think about the fact that, you know, some major legislation that passed only a decade ago, Essa, for example, passed with more than 80 votes in the Senate. And that means plenty of Republicans who went along. And we're just not seeing that kind of willingness to be thinking about schools, how children are taught, and mostly how the schools are funded and for what reasons that we saw in. In those days.
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Sarah McCammon
You mentioned Harvard. There's been a lot of attention on the high profile fights the administration has had with universities like Harvard, Brown, Columbia and others. How does what's happening in K12 education compare to what's happening with higher ed?
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Corey Turner
Yeah, it's interestingly very similar, yet for some reason largely going under the radar. You know, I feel like I can't turn around without seeing a headline about what's happening to Harvard. And yet many folks don't realize that the administration is already going hard at the the state of California and California's Department of Education, as well as the state of Maine and its Department of Education for insisting on allowing protections for transgender students that align the states argue with state law as well as current federal law. And the reason these cases matter, in addition to the investigations into school districts like Denver, Chicago, there are five districts in Northern Virginia. They're all in the same boat. The reason these investigations matter is ultimately, the only real clout or power the federal government has here is to cut off federal funding to these public school districts. And the reason that would be catastrophic is because most people don't realize that the bulk of federal funding that goes to schools these days, it's not that much. But what does go to schools goes to support kids with disabilities, pays for special education, and it goes to support kids living in poverty. So it's forcing school districts to really, like, choose between advocating on behalf of one marginalized student group, for example, transgender students, at the risk of losing funding that helps them support kids with disabilities or kids living in poverty.
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Domenico Montanaro
Yeah. And it kind of reminds me what Trump is doing here in trying to punish with federal funds to threaten to take them away, as he has with higher ed, as he has, as you've noted, with K to 12. It's sort of the opposite of what the Obama administration had tried to do with Race to the Top in trying to incentivize, you know, curriculum adoption of Common Core standards by saying, hey, here's this pot of money. If you want it, you got to participate and adopt these curriculum initiatives. But it's totally different than what the Trump administration is trying to do from a substantive standpoint, which is trying to reshape the culture in these schools, because classrooms, for a long time have been places where teachers can sort of, you know, work with kids who are from different backgrounds, races, ethnicities, religions, special needs, what have you, to sort of push for acceptance and tolerance and empathy of people and things that are different. And the Trump administration is saying the total opposite of that, where they're essentially looking out for, quote, unquote, parents rights, and those parents who are saying they don't want their kids learning about certain things, whether it's LGBTQ initiatives or books, and really saying that if you try to teach those things and make those explicit, then we're gonna try to punish you.
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Sarah McCammon
You know, Domenico, I wanted to ask you about something Corey talked about at the beginning, which is this idea that there's this inherent tension in the way the administration is navigating its approach to education, on the one hand, calling for a smaller, less powerful federal government, but on the other hand, using the powers that the administration has through the federal Department of Education to implement these kinds of goals. You were just describing, which. What do you make of the way the administration is threading that needle?
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Domenico Montanaro
I don't know that much of a needle that they're threading. I think that they have, you know, two standards here where they say that they want smaller government when those places agree with them, and they want the federal government to impose its will when there are places that defy them and places where Trump has personal animosity toward people, like maybe the governor of California or the governor of Maine, as we've seen. So, you know, a lot of this is personal. A lot of this is trying to instill this wholesale sort of culture change in the country and in education, where a lot of teachers unions have pushed back and teachers have pushed back. And it's something that, frankly, has been a campaign promise of Trump's where, you know, really this education piece and the teaching of LGBTQ curriculum is something that, you know, his base has wanted out of schools for a long time, even before the presidential election. Of course, we saw a lot of those rowdy school board meetings where they were trying to take, quote, unquote, woke things out of schools. And we saw that before, you know, really this was even a hot issue as Trump being president. He's just sort of picked up on that and using that to sort of satisfy his base.
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Sarah McCammon
We're going to take a quick break. We'll have more in just a moment.
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Domenico Montanaro
Hey, it's Robin Hilton from NPR Music.
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Corey Turner
With some big news for everyone who.
- [11:26]
Domenico Montanaro
Loves the Tiny Desk.
- [11:27]
Corey Turner
We're giving away a trip to D.C. to see a Tiny Desk concert in.
- [11:32]
Domenico Montanaro
Person, hotel and flights included. Learn more and enter for free@npr.org TinyDeskGiveAway. No purchase or donation required for entry. Must be 18 years or older to enter.
- [11:42]
Corey Turner
Links to the entry page and official.
- [11:44]
Domenico Montanaro
Rules can be found at npr.org tinydeskgiveaway on how to Do Everything, we take your questions and find phenomenal experts to answer them. Because we love you, Elizabeth asked us, how do I exercise while I'm in my car? And because we love Elizabeth, we rang up our our favorite bodybuilder turned actor turned governor turned actor. Hello, Arnold, hello. We're here to talk to you today from npr. Very nice. Season two just dropped. Listen to how to Do Everything from npr.
- [12:14]
Sarah McCammon
And we're back. And you know, as I'm listening to this, I'm thinking about the decades of fights that have surrounded public schools around the country, both in terms of what's taught, the curriculum and funding, how it's paid for. You know, many religious conservatives have been skeptical of public schools for a long time and have pushed for public funding for religious education and homeschools. That was an issue in Iowa, where I was a reporter for a while. Domenico, how do these efforts by the Trump administration to cut funding to schools who don't align with the administration's views. How does that fit into the bigger picture here?
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Domenico Montanaro
Well, I think that those issues are kind of pedestrian compared to what the Trump administration is actually trying to do at the center of everything. I mean, certainly, you know, white Christian evangelicals are a huge portion of the backing of Trump. But this goes far beyond, you know, just trying to to back those schools and really just trying to be able to put forward what the MAGA centric idea of how public schools should be run. And by doing so with, you know, as much leverage, whatever leverage, the federal government has, because schools are so decentralized, I mean, they're really run at the local level, and the federal government has so little control over what they can do. But Trump is trying to be able to use all of the wind behind him from conservatives to try to push a different educational agenda than we've seen in the last, you know, 25, 30 years or more.
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Corey Turner
The federal government really cannot dictate the terms to classrooms or to teachers. Public education is a local enterprise, except for their learning standards, which tend to be dictated at the state level. And so it's no coincidence that, like, when we saw a rash of book banning, well, that happened during the Biden administration. Administration, right. Those were local choices made by local communities. And, you know, the president talks a lot about influencing curriculum, getting woke out of schools. I don't think he can do that. He's using the instrument he has at his disposal, which is these civil rights laws and the threat of federal funding to sort of nibble around the edges. And the real question is, is the administration actually going to risk cutting this funding, which, again, would hurt the most vulnerable children in the country?
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Domenico Montanaro
And vouchers have been something that, you know, the right has talked about for a long time, and that was a thing that people would argue over whether or not, you know, you could have vouchers in schools, whether you can give, quote, unquote, school choice. But, you know, that's something that conservatives have been pushing for for a long time. Obviously, that was a big part of Project 2025. It's not necessarily the heart, though. I think, as Corey's pointing out, of what the Trump administration is really trying to push on here.
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Sarah McCammon
Well, and regardless of what the Trump administration can or mostly cannot do when it comes to education, I think Trump clearly understands that this is an issue that motivates the base. And so regardless of the fact that there are a few levers he can pull, he's gonna pull them.
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Domenico Montanaro
You know, white grievance is something that has propelled Trump politically ever since 2016. But there's a big difference between his first term, how he acted then and how he's acting now. And this time around, maybe with the help of Project 2025 and the people who wrote that, maybe with the fact that Trump had some experience already and now kind of more comfortable in as president, we're seeing a real granular enactment of that ethos, you know, from a policy standpoint from a leverage standpoint, as opposed to him sort of still trying to find his way through most of that first term.
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Sarah McCammon
You know, I want to put this in context. How does Trump's approach compare to previous administration's approaches to education, whether Republicans or Democrats?
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Corey Turner
So I do want to say here, I have heard from quite a few conservatives who had a real issue with the Office for Civil Rights in the Education Department under President Obama, Obama and then under President Biden, and specifically around the office's decision to interpret Title 9 to expand it and include protections for transgender students. There were an awful lot of conservatives, including school leaders, superintendents, districts, who felt like that was not the business of the federal government to tell them how far they should go. I will say, though, I was talking to a civil rights expert just the other day. He said, as much as conservatives really hated the Office for Civil Rights under Obama and Biden for that reason, what the Trump administration is doing now is essentially that on steroids and in the opposite direction, they're actually now threatening to withhold funding, which is. Which is something neither the Obama nor Biden administration ever came close to doing.
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Sarah McCammon
And Domenico, I mean, what about Republicans? How does this compare to other Republican presidents?
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Domenico Montanaro
Well, I mean, the last Republican president was George W. Bush before Donald Trump. Right. And he went about education in a very different way. Right. I mean, he championed no Child Left behind, trying to get more measurement and standards in schools. That was, you know, kind of a big piece of what the Education Department actually is and has been able to do, which is keep statistics. Really been a hub for that over those 25 years or so, that Trump has really kind of hung hollowed out in this, you know, first few months here, certainly. But, you know, George W. Bush was somebody who believed in this idea of compassionate conservatism. He was trying to expand the tent and wanted to appear to be somebody who was, you know, almost in the vein of lbj, of Lyndon Baines Johnson, who taught in impoverished schools and wanted to be able to bring more funding and spotlight to those schools and those children. That was something that George W. Bush and people around him felt like if the Republican Party could be seen as compassionate in those ways, then you could lift sort of the view and the image of the Republican Party from one that maybe was a little harsher to one that was a little bit, again, compassionate. And that's just not what we're seeing here. It's a complete 180 in many respects by the Trump administration.
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Sarah McCammon
Before we move on, Corey, I want to ask you we talked about the way that the Trump administration has really inverted the approach to civil rights laws when it comes to education. Do we know if what they're doing is legal?
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Corey Turner
That's the question of the next eight months, I would say. We got a ruling from a federal judge in Boston recently in the Harvard case. They used Title 6 of the Civil Rights act to argue that rampant antisemitism on Harvard's campus was violating student civil rights. And so they moved to freeze $2.2 billion in federal research funding. And the judge said the way the administration went about it was fundamentally illegal. They didn't follow the process embedded in the law itself. I mean, there's a reason it is incredibly rare to see the federal government actually cut funding to any school. Sarah. It's because it's hard, right?
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Sarah McCammon
It's legally hard.
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Corey Turner
It is legally hard. It is a long, torturous process that can take years. And what we're seeing are these investigations that begin with a press release and go in a matter of days from investigation to referral to the Department of Justice. It is a fast track, and there.
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Sarah McCammon
Will likely be more court battles as time goes by.
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Corey Turner
Oh, absolutely. And I think we expect the Supreme Court in the not too distant future to probably help clarify this thing. And what you see from states and school districts right now who maintain protections for transgender students is they're not saying, no, we will never abide by your view of the law. Trump administration. They're saying the law is open right now. The federal courts have contradicted themselves. States have adopted laws that we feel compelled to follow. Can we please just wait for the Supreme Court to say, yes, this, no, this. Let's move on.
- [20:16]
Sarah McCammon
All right, we do need to take a quick break. When we come back, it's time for Can't Let It Go.
- [20:22]
Domenico Montanaro
Hey, everybody, it's Ian and Mike, the hosts of how to Do Everything. That's the show where we take your questions and find overqualified experts to answer them. Alex asked us to write his out of office email message, but we don't know how to write. So we called up US Poet Laureate Ada Limon.
- [20:38]
Sarah McCammon
Is this National Public Radio?
- [20:40]
Domenico Montanaro
Sort of. Technically, yes. Season two just dropped. Listen to the how to Do Everything podcast from npr. This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. No idea where to sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run, and grow your Business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout to help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level today, immigration raids, masked ICE agents, Operation Patriot. Our podcast here and now Anytime is looking at Trump's agenda of mass deportation through the eyes of one state. I'm coming to Boston.
- [21:29]
Corey Turner
I'm bringing hell with me. Listen to the podcast here and now.
- [21:32]
Domenico Montanaro
Anytime from NPR and wbur. Sources and Methods, the crown jewels of the intelligence community. Shorthand for how do we know what's real? Who told us? If you have those answers, you're on the inside and NPR wants to bring you there. From the Pentagon to the State Department to spy agencies, listen to understand what's.
- [21:57]
Sarah McCammon
Really happening and what it means for you. Sources and Methods, the new national Security podcast from npr. And we're back. It's time to end the show like we do every week with Can't Let It Go, the part of the show where we talk about the things from the week that we just can't stop thinking about politics or otherwise. And I'm gonna start. You know, sometimes you have to let things go. And the last month of my life has been one of big transitions. My oldest went off to college. So Corey, I now have somebody in higher ed and k12.
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Corey Turner
Congratulations.
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Sarah McCammon
Thank you. And so, you know, I've been away for a few weeks getting ready for all of that. And my friends have been asking me, you know, what is it like in D.C. with the federal takeover of law enforcement, which we were talking about earlier this week? And I had to say, well, I don't know. I'm not there. So I've been back for several days and, you know, my little corner of the world looks about the same as it did the last time I was here, although this morning I was at this outdoor yoga class that I sometimes go to. It's very sort of chill free. You just kind of show and do your thing on your mat. And I looked up and the birds are flying over and we're all on our mats doing our work. And I looked up and there were three National Guardsmen just walking by my yoga class through the park. And so in some ways, it's very different in D.C. and in other ways, it's not. Corey, what about you? Why can't you let go?
- [23:27]
Corey Turner
I'm gonna go super soft here. Last night I went to the movies and I saw In IMAX the 50th anniversary re release of JAWS, which, by my lights, is about as close to perfection as movies get. And it's just that rare movie that may be 50 years old, but every time I watch it, I just love it that much more. I guess this is a humble brag, although I'm terrified about it. I have reported in the past about the sharks that were used in Jaws. I have a very strange relationship with those sharks. One of them is now in the Academy of Motion Pictures Museum in Los Angeles. I found it in a junkyard. And so next week, I'm actually going to Los Angeles and I'm going to walk through the Academy Museum's brand new 50th anniversary Jaws exhibit with Steven Spielberg.
- [24:25]
Sarah McCammon
Oh, my goodness.
- [24:26]
Corey Turner
And so I'm a little bit terrified, but I'm also feeling very 11 years old.
- [24:32]
Sarah McCammon
I cannot wait to hear this story.
- [24:34]
Domenico Montanaro
That's gonna be great.
- [24:36]
Sarah McCammon
What about you, Domenico? What can't you let go?
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Domenico Montanaro
Well, for me, it's thieves and the US Open in tennis. And I don't mean people stealing points or water breaks here and there. I mean people actually stealing stuff from players and from other people. It's kind of crazy. There was a Polish CEO, Peter Zarek, I hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly. And he has a paving stone company in Poland called Drogbrook. And he was at the US Open, there was a Polish player who had just beaten a Russian player. And the Polish player was giving his hat to a child that he had just signed. And Zarek just took the hat from the kid.
- [25:18]
Sarah McCammon
Oh, I saw this.
- [25:19]
Domenico Montanaro
Right. And it went viral. And people were outraged about it. They were trying to find him. There was even a lesson, by the way, in social media rage, just maybe going too far, because there was another person in Poland who runs a paving stone company also called Drogbrook, but with a hyphen with a similar sounding last name, who people were going after and targeting their rage at. And he had no idea what they were talking about. Drogbruck, by the way, means paving stones for roads. So it's not that weird that it would be called that. So that. And so this. So this guy, like, you know, wound up apologizing. He said he felt terrible. It was the, you know, heat of the moment. He thought he was giving it to him for his son. And he might not be that far off from thinking, why, because he has kind of a personal relationship with the tennis player. Because he sponsors a lot of tennis in Poland and where this guy with a Polish player practices and stuff. Anyway, everyone apologized. The player then met with the kid. They were both smiling ear to ear. But his real lesson, I thought, in how people really interact with the news and things that they see because people went after this CEO very quickly and even people were posting fake apologies from the CEO and his family that he never even did. So.
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Sarah McCammon
People have so much time on their hands. Boy, I think others were making this point on social media. But also I think one of the lessons of the last several months is if you're a CEO in a public stadium, just behave.
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Corey Turner
Don't take things from children.
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Domenico Montanaro
Yeah, be happy with the large salary you get. But then there was a fan who also tried to steal from Yannick Sinner's bag. Like, kind of came on the court and was like going through his bag before security stopped them. And Sinner is one of the top tennis players in the world on the men's side. And he was like, look, he's like, I don't just have rackets in there. He's like, I also have my wallet, my phone. So luckily nothing got taken. They didn't punish the fan. But everyone needs to chill out. Maybe it's the nice weather in Queens that everyone's just decided this year that they're gonna, you know, act a little feisty. I don't know.
- [27:26]
Sarah McCammon
Well, fall is here, so it's time to chill out for sure. All right, that is a wrap for today. Corey, thank you for being here.
- [27:33]
Corey Turner
Thanks for having me.
- [27:34]
Sarah McCammon
Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Our editor is Rachel Bay. Our producers are Casey Morell and Bria Suggs. Thanks also to Kelsey Snow. I'm Sarah McCammon. I got cover Politics.
- [27:44]
Domenico Montanaro
And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.
- [27:47]
Sarah McCammon
And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.
- [27:58]
Domenico Montanaro
On the Throughline podcast from npr. Immigration enforcement might be more visible now, but this moment didn't begin with President Trump's second inauguration or even his first, a series from Throughline about how immigration became political and a cash cow. Listen to Throughline in the NPR app.
- [28:19]
Corey Turner
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:22]
Domenico Montanaro
U.S. government vaccine policy could be changing dramatically in Florida. It already has. This week on Consider this, we're answering.
- [28:30]
Corey Turner
Your questions about COVID shots with help from a doctor and expert on infectious disease. Plus, chaos roils the CDC after high profile departures from that agency.
- [28:41]
Domenico Montanaro
Listen to Consider this on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is a mystery for those of faith or no faith. Ye Gods. With Scott Carter is the podcast that.
- [28:52]
Corey Turner
Makes sense of how we make sense of life. Each week we talk to celebrities, scholars and mere mortals to unearth what on earth we believe and what we don't. Listen to.
- [29:02]
Domenico Montanaro
Ye Gods with Scott Carter, part of the NPR Network.
- [29:05]
Corey Turner
Wherever you get your podcasts.