Trump Administration Wants To Dismantle Federal Watchdog Agencies

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Trump Administration Wants To Dismantle Federal Watchdog Agencies

The NPR Politics Podcast
Date: September 29, 2025
Host/Reporters: Miles Parks, Carrie Johnson, Andrea Hsu

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Episode Overview

In this episode, NPR’s political reporters dissect the Trump administration’s recent moves to dismantle key federal watchdog agencies—the Merit Systems Protection Board and the Office of Special Counsel. The team explores the history and crucial roles of these agencies, details recent controversial firings, examines the legal and constitutional arguments, and looks at the broader implications for U.S. civil service and government accountability.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What are the Merit Systems Protection Board & Office of Special Counsel?

Timestamps: 01:05–02:27

• Origins & Purpose:
  • Both agencies were established post-Watergate to protect federal civil servants from political interference and abuses by management.
  • Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB): An adjudicatory body (“a court within the executive branch”) that hears personnel issues—discipline, firing, demotions.
  • Office of Special Counsel: An investigative/prosecutorial agency that examines claims like whistleblower retaliation and can ask MSPB to reinstate wronged employees. The two agencies work closely together.
• Quote:
  • “Congress wanted to make sure that people could do their work free from political interference and free from abuse by management.” —Andrea Hsu [01:22]

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2. The Recent Firings and Their Significance

Timestamps: 02:27–03:42

• Who Was Fired?

  • Hampton Dellinger (Special Counsel): Appointed by Biden, fired by Trump with four years left in his term. His office is now headed by an acting counsel who is also the U.S. Trade Representative, raising independence questions.
  • Kathy Harris (MSPB): Democratic MSPB board member, also fired by Trump with three years left in her term, leaving the agency without a quorum. As a result, 400+ appeals are backlogged.

• Implications:

  • Independence of oversight is threatened.
  • Agencies cannot fully function, leading to significant delays and uncertainty for federal employees.

• Quote:

  • “Since Harris’s firing, the agency has no quorum on its three-member board. ...As of the end of August, there were more than 400 cases waiting for the board to have a quorum again so they could hear those appeals.” —Andrea Hsu [03:07]

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3. The Administration’s Legal and Constitutional Rationale

Timestamps: 03:42–05:44

• Maximalist Approach:

  • Trump’s team argues for broad presidential power to fire officials in “quasi-independent” agencies, citing Article II.
  • James Burnham (former Trump White House Counsel’s Office): "[It may be] that no other president has asserted this kind of authority... but he says they've had the power all along.” [03:59]
  • Even roles with regulatory or prosecutorial authority could be subject to at-will removal; possibly only purely administrative roles (like receptionists) are protected.

• Supreme Court’s Role:

  • Ongoing legal battles, notably regarding Kathy Harris's reinstatement/removal.
  • The Supreme Court’s shadow docket allowed Trump’s firings, indicating possible constitutional support for expanded presidential removal power.

• Notable Quotes:

  • “There’s a, I think, a quite strong Article II argument that the president has the authority to remove anybody who wields basically any modicum of authority.” —James Burnham (via Carrie Johnson) [04:13]
  • “Our country is built on a separation of powers, a balance of powers. ...When you give the president unfettered power, you’re taking away the power from Congress.” —Kathy Harris (quoted by Carrie Johnson) [05:44]

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4. Downstream Effects and Precedent

Timestamps: 06:03–07:20

• Seismic Shift in Federal Employment:
  • If the Supreme Court sides with Trump, it could overturn a 90-year-old precedent (Humphrey’s Executor) and make most federal employees removable at will.
  • This change would consolidate executive power, reduce independence, and politicize federal employment.
• Quote:
  • “Trump is in full control of the federal government as he and people who believe in the unitary executive theory believe he should be and has been all along.” —Carrie Johnson [07:15]

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5. Civil Service System: How Things Worked Until Now

Timestamps: 09:01–10:18

• Historical Context:

  • Since the early 20th century, federal employment has been based on merit, not patronage.
  • Carrie Johnson recalls Justice Department scandals from the Bush administration—previously, hiring based on politics was condemned; now, there are reports of Loyalty tests (“for whom he voted”) at the FBI.

• Federal Employees’ Oath:

  • Civil servants are sworn to the Constitution, not the president.
  • Concerns raised by former officials about the dangers of returning to a patronage system.

• Potential Consequences:

  • Threats to impartiality in federal services (e.g., Social Security), based on political allegiance.

• Notable Moment:

  • “If you don’t show your MAGA credentials at the door, you may not get an answer or you may not even get a check. We’re not there yet, but ... we’re on that path.” —Rayleigh Mone (quoted by Andrea Hsu and Carrie Johnson) [11:13]

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6. Legal Safeguards and Congressional Response

Timestamps: 11:20–13:20

• Protections at Risk:
  • Laws say career employees can only be fired for cause, to protect them from political retaliation.
  • Now, many are resorting to litigation to challenge firings, both at MSPB and in federal court, on grounds of violating civil service protections and possibly the First Amendment.
• Who’s Being Targeted?
  • Trump has fired Democratic members of bipartisan boards, eroding their intended balance.
• Congress’s Reaction:
  • Aside from concern over the Federal Reserve, Congressional response has largely been limited to “sternly worded letters.”
  • There's little action on firings outside the monetary policy context despite congressional design of these watchdogs.

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7. Implications for a Potential Government Shutdown

Timestamps: 13:20–14:11

• Merit Systems Protection Board’s Role:
  • In a mass layoff during a shutdown, fired federal employees could challenge their removal at MSPB—but only after being removed, with appeals delayed due to lack of quorum.
  • This could leave many employees in limbo, compounding administrative backlogs.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Congress wanted to make sure that people could do their work free from political interference and free from abuse by management.” —Andrea Hsu [01:22]
• “If you don’t show your MAGA credentials at the door, you may not get an answer or you may not even get a check.” —Rayleigh Mone (via Andrea Hsu and Carrie Johnson) [11:11]
• “Trump is in full control of the federal government as he...believe[s] he should be and has been all along.” —Carrie Johnson [07:15]
• “Our country is built on a separation of powers, a balance of powers. ...When you give the president unfettered power, you’re taking away the power from Congress.” —Kathy Harris (quoted by Carrie Johnson) [05:44]
• “There’s a, I think, a quite strong Article II argument that the president has the authority to remove anybody who wields basically any modicum of authority.” —James Burnham (via Carrie Johnson) [04:13]

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Conclusion

This episode underscores a pivotal struggle in American governance over the extent of executive power, the independence of the civil service, and the survival of systems protecting career federal workers from political influence. With firings of key oversight officials, rapid legal developments, and unclear congressional resolve, the future of federal watchdog agencies—and the principle of non-partisan government service—hangs in the balance.

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Transcript

[Miles Parks]

This message comes from Carvana. Explore Carvana's quick and easy financing and browse thousands of car options, all within your budget and timeline. Get pre qualified [e-mail] financing subject to credit approval. Additional terms and conditions may apply.

[Andrea Hsu]

I'm Nora Ball, currently at the summit.

[Carrie Johnson]

Of Sunrise Peak on Jeju island in.

[Andrea Hsu]

South Korea, where I am studying abroad this semester.

[Miles Parks]

This podcast was recorded at 2:10pm on September 29, 2025.

[Carrie Johnson]

Things may have changed by the time.

[Andrea Hsu]

You hear this, but I will hopefully be back down safely enjoying some tangerines and fresh seafood.

[Miles Parks]

Sounds delightful. I feel like I could. I could hear the Zen in her voice.

[Carrie Johnson]

Absolutely. Wow. Beam us over there.

[Miles Parks]

That's what I was gonna say. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.

[Carrie Johnson]

I'm Carrie Johnson. I cover the Justice Department.

[Miles Parks]

And NPR's labor and Workplace correspondent Andrea Hsu is here with us as well. Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea Hsu]

Hi, Myles. Thanks for having me.

[Miles Parks]

Thanks for being here. And today on the show, we're talking about watchdog agencies within the government and the Trump administration trying to dismantle them. And you both, Andrew and Kerry, have both done some reporting on changes to two oversight agencies, the Merit Systems Protection Board and the Office of Special Counsel. Andrea, can you just explain big picture, what role these agencies play in the government?

[Andrea Hsu]

Yeah. So both of them are really a product of the Nixon era when public distrust of the government was high. So Congress created these agencies to better safeguard the civil service, you know, the federal employees who carry out the functions of the government day in and day out. Congress wanted to make sure that people could do their work free from political interference and free from abuse by management. So the Merit Systems Protection Board, think of it like a court within the executive branch that hears personnel issues. Basically, if a federal employee faces some kind of discipline or firing or demotion that they don't agree with, they can go to the board and argue that it was wrong. And the Office of Social Counsel was created to investigate claims of wrongdoing. So think of that office like a prosecutor. So someone says, I've been illegally fired because I blew the whistle on wasteful spending at my agency. The special counsel would investigate this claim, and they could ask the Merit Systems Protection Board to reinstate the employees. So those two agencies kind of work in tandem.

[Miles Parks]

Got it. And so your reporting focused specifically on controversial firings at these agencies. Can you talk us through who was let go and why this is such a big deal?

[Andrea Hsu]

So early this year, President Trump fired Hampton Dellinger who was the special counsel appointed by President Biden, even though he still had four years left in his term. And now there's an acting special counsel who's also the US Trade Representative. But for all intents and purposes, that office is no longer independent. And so we don't really know how it's functioning. And Trump also fired Kathy Harris. Now, she was a Democratic member of the Merit Systems Protection Board, and she still had three years left in her term. Now, her agency is still functioning because there are administrative judges who are still hearing cases and issuing decisions. But since Harris is firing, the agency has no quorum on its three member board. Kathy Harris was one of those three members, and it's that board that hears appeals of decisions. So these cases are rapidly piling up. As of the end of August, there were more than 400 cases waiting for the board to have a quorum again so they could hear those appeals.

[Miles Parks]

Well, and these agencies. Right, Carrie, are considered basically independent. But it seems like the Trump administration is kind of pushing back on that idea. Is that right?

[Carrie Johnson]

Yeah, absolutely, Miles. In fact, the Trump administration has been pushing a maximalist view of its power in this area, as in so many others. And I reached out to James Burnham, who worked in the White House Counsel's office during Trump's first term. Earlier this year, he served as general counsel of Doge. And Burnham told us that, you know, it may be that no other president has asserted this kind of authority and power over these quasi independent agencies, but he says they've had the power all along.

[Andrea Hsu]

There's a, I think, a quite strong.

[Miles Parks]

Article 2 argument that the president has.

[Carrie Johnson]

The authority to remove anybody who wields basically any modicum of authority. Anybody. So he's talking about, you know, a prosecutor, a person who makes regulations at the Food and Drug Administration. When I asked him whether there was anyone who wouldn't be eligible to be fired under this theory of a White House's huge power over the whole federal government, Burnham basically said, well, maybe, you know, the receptionist at the U.S. attorney's office, somebody who has nothing to do with prosecutions or regulations that affect people's basic rights.

[Miles Parks]

So I feel like, as is the case with any controversial firing, there are lawsuits, and a number of them related to these firings. Andrea, can you kind of get us up to speed on the latest legal developments here?

[Andrea Hsu]

Yes. So many lawsuits. With all these firings have come lawsuits. And in, you know, Kathy Harris's case, for instance, at the Merit Systems Protection Board, there's been a lot of flip flopping. She was reinstated. She was removed again. She was reinstated. She was removed again. And the Supreme Court on its shadow docket issued a decision basically allowing President Trump to go ahead and fire her. The argument being what? Kerry outlined, that the Supreme Court found that the Constitution likely does give the president the power to fire someone like her, even though the law that created the Merit Systems Protection Board states that board members can only be fired for cause such as neglect of duty or malfeasance. And I talked to Kathy Harris about this and she said there's a reason that Congress put these restrictions on the president.

[Carrie Johnson]

Our country is built on a separation of powers, a balance of powers. And when you give the president unfettered power, which I don't think the Constitution provides, especially in this instance, in you're taking away the power from Congress.

[Miles Parks]

Well, Kerry, can I just ask about the broader downstream effects for the federal government if the Supreme Court ultimately says that Trump is allowed to fire people like Kathy Harris? I mean, what would that mean? Big picture?

[Carrie Johnson]

What it would mean big picture is that a 90 year old precedent called Humphrey's executor basically is out the window and that the president has the ability to hire and fire the vast majority of the federal workforce at will without providing any reason or cause like neglect of duty or malfeasance or anything like that. And that would really continue this massive restructuring and reshaping of the federal government we've already seen Trump and Doge try to implement this year. Interestingly enough, the Supreme Court on its emergency docket has mostly sided with the president on this question. And even if it hasn't issued major substantive decisions on the merits yet, it's allowed many of these people like Kathy Harris to be fired. So the effect is that Trump is in full control of the federal government as he and people who believe in the unitary executive theory believe he should be and has been all along.

[Miles Parks]

All right. We'll dig into that a little bit more after a quick break. More in just a moment.

[Andrea Hsu]

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[Carrie Johnson]

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[Miles Parks]

This message is sponsored by dsw, the birthplace of the humble brag, full of all kinds of shoes that get you at prices that get your budget. And when there are never ending options for every style, mood, occasion and budget, there is unlimited freedom to play. And that's something to brag about. So go ahead, stock up on fresh sneakers from your favorite brands or try those boots you always secretly knew you could pull off. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget. Dsw, let them surprise you. And we're back, and we've been talking about changes to the federal government systems meant to insulate civil servants from politics. And I want to back up just a second. Kerry. Can you just explain how the civil service system has worked under previous administrations?

[Carrie Johnson]

Sure. So more than 100 years ago, the government pivoted to a system where you had to kind of have some skills and expertise. And before that time, it was more about patronage and who you knew, not what you knew. And that has big consequences for things like regulation of the medicines and the environment, but it also has some consequences for the Justice Department. So I've covered DOJ long enough to remember when there were scandals about hiring on the basis of politics in the George W. Bush years, there was a big crackdown on that. And then, lo and behold, this year, the administration has been firing prosecutors who investigated Donald Trump. They've fired some very, very senior FBI officials, one of whom filed a lawsuit and said that when he was interviewed for promotion at the FBI this year, someone in the White House actually asked him for whom he voted, which is totally not allowed in, in modern times to be asking that of an FBI official. And it seems like that system that many administrations have respected is now changing.

[Andrea Hsu]

Yeah, I've had multiple federal employees, former federal employees, remind me that civil servants, they take an oath to uphold the Constitution, not to uphold you, any single president. I spoke with Rayleigh Mone. He retired actually from the Merit Systems Protection Board in February. But before that, he'd spent nearly three decades in other roles in the government, mostly as a human resources leader and an employment attorney. And he kind of outlined a scenario that he feels that we're headed toward. He said people should be able to get their Social Security checks and challenge problems with their Social Security checks, like the amount of no matter if they support the current administration or not. But he said, like, imagine we return to a patronage system. That might not be true. He came up with this imaginary scenario. If you don't show your MAGA credentials.

[Carrie Johnson]

At the door, you may not get.

[Andrea Hsu]

An answer or you may not even get a check.

[Carrie Johnson]

We're not there yet. But what I'm saying is we're on that path.

[Miles Parks]

How critical are these agencies for enforcing this norm that became the case around 100 years ago that you guys are telling me about? What does the law say about whether the government can hire or fire civil servants for political reasons? How does this exactly work?

[Carrie Johnson]

Well, at stake here are the very civil service protections that we've been talking about that the Merit Systems Protection Board helps uphold and evaluate. But this year, increasingly, some people have worked inside the Justice Department and the FBI are not only going to the board, but they're also filing lawsuits in federal court saying the administration did not respect these kind of civil service rules and laws, but also that they may have been targeted in violation of the First Amendment, targeted because of their political beliefs or lack of political beliefs. And these are the kinds of things we're gonna see federal courts evaluate in the months and years to come.

[Andrea Hsu]

And I will say, Miles, that among the, you know, the heads of these independent agencies that Trump has fired, they're the Democratic members. These boards were set up to be bipartisan with Republican and Democratic members, and the ones that he has fired are those occupying the Democratic seats.

[Miles Parks]

These were agencies created by Congress, and Congress traditionally doesn't love it when the executive branch comes in and usurps power that is supposed to be theirs. Have they had any response at all to the idea that, you know, President Trump is essentially kind of exerting more control over these quasi independent agencies?

[Carrie Johnson]

Most of what I've seen is sternly worded letters out of Congress, with one exception, and that is when the President was making a lot of noise about wanting to fire Jerome Powell at the Federal Reserve. Members of Congress seem to be a little bit more vocal about why that would be a bad and dangerous thing for the markets. We have seen far less action and even statements from lawmakers on both sides of the aisle with respect to some of these firings outside of the Federal Reserve context.

[Miles Parks]

Well, and staying on Congress for a second Tuesday night is the deadline for Congress to avert a government shutdown. Andrea, does the Merit Systems Protection Board play a role there at all?

[Andrea Hsu]

Yeah, well, you know, if federal employees are laid off en masse as the White House Office of Management and Budget has threatened, you know, federal employees may be able to challenge their removals. They might be able to go to the Merit Systems Protection Board, but only after they've been removed. And that typically takes 60 days at least. But let's say there are mass layoffs during the shutdown. We could see a flood of cases filed with the Merit Systems Protection Board. And, you know, that would keep them very busy. And then if there's still no quorum on the board itself, those, you know, appeals of those cases could just pile up and those people could be left in limbo for an undetermined amount of time.

[Miles Parks]

All right. Well, we can leave it there for today. Thank you so much for joining us, Andrea.

[Andrea Hsu]

Thank you for having me.

[Miles Parks]

I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.

[Carrie Johnson]

I'm Carrie Johnson. I cover the Justice Department.

[Miles Parks]

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast on the Throughline podcast from npr.

[Andrea Hsu]

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[Miles Parks]

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[Andrea Hsu]

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[Miles Parks]

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[Andrea Hsu]

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