Trump Attempts To Shut Down USAID And Imposes Tariffs

Summary

Summary of "Trump Attempts To Shut Down USAID And Imposes Tariffs" – NPR Politics Podcast

Release Date: February 3, 2025
Host: NPR
Episode Title: Trump Attempts To Shut Down USAID And Imposes Tariffs
Hosted by: Tamara Keith, Frank Ordonez, and Domenico Montanaro

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Introduction

In this episode of The NPR Politics Podcast, hosts Tamara Keith, Frank Ordonez, and senior political editor Domenico Montanaro delve into President Donald Trump's recent maneuvers to dismantle the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and impose significant tariffs on imports from Mexico, Canada, and China. Recorded at 12:43 PM on February 3, the discussion provides an in-depth analysis of the implications these actions hold for U.S. governance, international relations, and the domestic economy.

Elon Musk's Initiative to Shut Down USAID

The episode opens with the startling announcement from Elon Musk regarding his Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) and its mission to shut down USAID. Musk articulates his stance on X (formerly Twitter), stating:

"To be clear, in shutting down, which we're in the process of doing, shutting down usaid. The reason for that, as opposed to simply trying to do some minor housing cleaning, is that as we dug into usaid, it became apparent that what we have here is not an apple with a worm in it, but we have actually just a ball of worms. And so at the point at which you don't merely if you've got an apple, it's got a worm in it, maybe you can take the worm out, but if you've got actually just a ball of worms, it's hopeless. And USID is a ball of worms. There is no apple. And when there is no apple, you've just got to basically get rid of the whole thing." (00:52)

Understanding USAID's Role and Significance

Domenico Montanaro provides a comprehensive overview of USAID, highlighting its pivotal role in U.S. foreign assistance:

"USAID has a $50 billion budget. It basically delivers more than half of the US foreign assistance worldwide... Its missions are in over 100 countries, aiming to advance US national security interests and economic prosperity, promote American generosity, and foster self-reliance and resiliency in developing nations." (01:37)

USAID's establishment in 1961 under President John F. Kennedy was intended to consolidate various aid programs, enhancing America's soft power during the Cold War by supporting global development and building alliances against the Soviet Union.

The Emergence of DOGE and Its Authority

Frank Ordonez addresses the origins and operations of DOGE, linking it back to promises made during Trump's campaign to reduce the federal budget by $2 trillion. He explains:

"Dog, or DOGE, was created as a vehicle to perform cost-cutting measures and extend President Trump's executive powers... DOGE has a shadowy presence, with unclear operational modalities and targets." (03:06)

Montanaro adds that DOGE was empowered through an executive order, granting it unrestricted access to unclassified government records and systems, effectively positioning Elon Musk to oversee its activities. However, questions linger regarding the vetting and security clearances of DOGE personnel.

Congressional Reaction and Legal Challenges

The podcast transitions to the legislative response, with Tamara Keith pointing out the gradual rise in Democratic opposition:

"Democratic members of Congress are out in front of the USAID building, voicing their concerns about the legitimacy of DOGE's actions." (05:41)

Frank Ordonez elaborates on the Democrats' stance, emphasizing that DOGE likely lacks the constitutional authority to unilaterally shut down a Congressional-established agency:

"Democrats assert that neither DOGE nor President Trump possesses the authority to dissolve USAID without Congressional approval. This sets the stage for a significant legal showdown." (06:00)

The discussion underscores the potential for a major conflict between the executive and legislative branches, questioning the extension of presidential powers beyond traditional limits.

Trump's Imposition of Tariffs: Strategy and Impact

The conversation shifts focus to Trump's deployment of tariffs as another tool to exert economic pressure. On a recent Saturday, Trump announced a 25% tariff on imports from Mexico and Canada and 10% from China, later placing a one-month hold on the Mexico tariffs after discussions with Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum.

Frank Ordonez analyzes Trump's approach:

"Trump employs tariffs as leverage to bend foreign nations to his will, a tactic consistent with his business background where negotiation and leverage are paramount." (08:27)

Montanaro contrasts this strategy with traditional foreign policy, noting Trump's transactional worldview:

"Trump's actions reflect a departure from long-term alliance building, focusing instead on immediate, transactional gains without regard for broader diplomatic repercussions." (10:18)

Economic Ramifications of the Tariffs

Tamara Keith highlights the economic concerns arising from the tariffs:

"Economists widely agree that tariffs can lead to higher prices for American consumers, as imported goods become more expensive." (11:12)

Montanaro counters by referencing Treasury Secretary Scott Besant's optimistic outlook:

"Besant argues that tariffs will combat unfair trade practices and boost domestic oil production, potentially offsetting price increases." (12:08)

However, the hosts express skepticism, pointing out that historically, tariffs tend to shift costs to consumers rather than yield the promised economic benefits.

Political Consequences and Future Implications

The hosts explore the potential political fallout from Trump's aggressive policies. Domenico Montanaro warns of the inherent risks in creating "own goals":

"By implementing policies that may backfire economically, Trump jeopardizes his political standing, as it becomes challenging to recover from significant missteps." (13:40)

Frank Ordonez adds that Trump's history of selective concessions ("carve-outs") to protect key industries suggests he might mitigate some negative impacts, but the overarching gamble remains risky:

"Trump's strategy relies on the hope that immediate concessions from other nations will prevail before long-term economic pain affects American voters' perceptions." (15:53)

Conclusion

The episode concludes with the acknowledgment of the volatile and uncertain nature of Trump's tactics. While his strategies may offer short-term leverage, the long-term implications for U.S. governance, international relations, and the domestic economy could be profound and contentious.

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Notable Quotes:

• Elon Musk on USAID Shutdown:

  "USID is a ball of worms. There is no apple. And when there is no apple, you've just got to basically get rid of the whole thing." (00:52)

• Frank Ordonez on DOGE's Authority:

  "DOGE does not have the authority to shut down USAID on its own. You can't just bypass Congress and shut down a federal agency." (05:55)

• Frank Ordonez on Trump's Tariff Strategy:

  "Trump uses leverage as a negotiating tool, betting that short-term tariffs won't last long enough to cause significant harm." (11:50)

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This comprehensive analysis sheds light on the intricate dynamics of executive power, legislative oversight, and economic policy under the Trump administration, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of the current political landscape.

Transcript

[Gavin]

Hi, my name is Gavin and I recently made the long drive to move from Michigan to Phoenix, Arizona to escape the snow.

[Tamara Keith]

This podcast was recorded at 12:43pm on Monday, February 3.

[Gavin]

Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but I look forward to warm weather and sunshine in this new chapter in my life. Okay, here's the show.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Yeah, I didn't know if that was just vacation or if that's like permanent, but sounds permanent.

[Tamara Keith]

It sounds permanent and it sounds mighty appealing right now. I'm freezing in the studio.

[Domenico Montanaro]

It was cold this morning.

[Tamara Keith]

Hey there. It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.

[Frank Ordonez]

I'm Frank Ordonez. I also cover the White House.

[Domenico Montanaro]

And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.

[Tamara Keith]

Elon Musk says that his Department of Government Efficiency, or doge, is in the process of shutting down usaid, that is the US Agency for International Development.

[Elon Musk]

To be clear, in shutting down, which we're in the process of doing, shutting down usaid. The reason for that, as opposed to simply trying to do some minor housing cleaning, is that as we dug into usaid, it became apparent that what we have here is not an apple with a worm in it, but we have actually just a ball of worms. And so at the point at which you don't merely if you've got an apple, it's got a worm in it, maybe you can take the worm out, but if you've got actually just a ball of worms, it's hopeless. And USID is a ball of worms. There is no apple. And when there is no apple, you've just got to basically get rid of the whole thing.

[Tamara Keith]

And that was Elon Musk speaking on X in a spaces chat. Domenico let's start with this thing we're talking about, usaid. What is it? What does it do?

[Domenico Montanaro]

Well, USAID has a $50 billion budget. It basically delivers more than half of the US foreign assistance worldwide. It was created in 1961, both by an act of Congress, the Foreign Assistance act, and a subsequent executive order by John F. Kennedy, Jun, then President, to unite various aid programs and assistance basically under one flag. It has missions in over 100 countries. It is directly appropriated by Congress through various line items that we've seen over the years. And the idea of it is essentially to advance US national security interests and economic prosperity, showing American generosity, promoting self reliance and resiliency of other countries. Essentially in developing countries, they want to, quote, lift lives, build communities and establish self sufficiency. So a lot of things in the essentially humanitarian, soft power way that the United States, Post World War I and World War II, tried to help develop other countries, build alliances, and to fight against then was the Soviet Union.

[Tamara Keith]

And I have to ask another really basic question. And Franco, if you can try to take a swing at it, I'd appreciate it. But Doge, what is it and how is it operating? And how is this guy on Twitter Spaces able to shut down a government program created by Congress?

[Frank Ordonez]

Yeah, it dates back to, like, the Trump campaign. Back during the campaign, Elon Musk made all these promises that if Trump was elected, that he could cut $2 trillion from the federal budget. And this is kind of the vehicle to do that type of work. He's kind of come back off of some of those ambitious number. I mean, it was created to do this type of work. I mean, it is set up to do cost cutting, to cut. Find ways to cut the federal budget. But really what it is also about is kind of extending President Trump's executive powers.

[Domenico Montanaro]

And, you know, to the point of that, President Trump gave DOGE a degree of power by creating it essentially in an executive order, officially, you know, saying that anybody within DOGE has, quote, full and prompt access to all unclassified agency records, software systems, and IT systems, essentially renaming a different agency the US Digital Services, and essentially handing that over to presumably, Elon Musk. But it's a pretty shadowy group in the sense that we don't know exactly how they're running things, what they're going after.

[Tamara Keith]

We don't know if they're government employees. We don't whether they have been through a proper vetting or security clearance. Though we should say that there was another executive order that said that the White House counsel could just give security clearance to anyone.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Right. You know, it's interesting, though, they're going after usaid, and I find that notable because, number one, USAID is less than 1% of the federal budget. You know, the bigger things within the US Budget are entitlements and defense spending. And the Trump administration has basically said they're not gonna even touch those things. And if you don't do that, you're not really able to make much of a dent in the budget. I also think it's interesting because what USAID does and wants to do from a worldview perspective does run counter to the sort of America first idea that Trump has this very transactional policy, because just reading from the Foreign Assistance act of 1961 that established it, it essentially said that Congress declares that a principal objective of U.S. foreign policy, you know, is to support people in developing countries in their efforts to acquire the knowledge and resources essential to. To build the economic, political, and social institutions which will improve the quality of their lives. That definitively runs very counter to how Trump views what US Foreign policy should be.

[Tamara Keith]

Franco, I want to talk about congressional reaction to this. It was a little bit slow to get going over the weekend, but now today you have Democratic members of Congress out in front of the USAID building.

[Frank Ordonez]

I think they have really. The Democrats have been kind of feeling their way through all of this. You know, I think there are a lot of questions about whether Doge has this kind of authority and what kind of authority it has. I can tell you for certain that Democratic members of Congress say it does not have the authority to shut down usaid, nor do they say that Trump has the authority to shut down USAID on his own. That you can't just bypass Congress and shut down a federal agency. The law does seem pretty clear on this. So I do anticipate that you're going to have a big fight ahead on this front. At the same time, you know, there has been some questions about what Trump is specifically trying to do or how he's trying to shut down usaid. He hasn't cited any statute or authority that allows the president to kind of skip Congress and shut down the agency. And just a little while ago, we learned that Marco Rubio at least, is saying that he will be the acting director. So something is going to live on in what fashion and how, or at least temporarily, we're going to find out.

[Tamara Keith]

Franco, I feel like we've said this a lot, but we are probably going to say it again. This appears to be yet another test of the legal and constitutional limits of President Trump's executive power.

[Frank Ordonez]

Yeah, no question about it. Trump had made very clear during the campaign that he wanted to kind of extend executive powers. And this, as you say, is really the latest example of doing that. It really is kind of a test case for that. They're really going all out in trying to either shut it down or take over in very capacity, I mean, essentially to remake the federal government and really, really push the limits of Trump's executive power.

[Tamara Keith]

All right, well, we are going to take a quick break, and we will have more in just a minute. And we're back. And one area where the president does actually have a decent amount of executive authority relates to tariffs. On Saturday, President Trump announced a 25% tariff on goods from Mexico and Canada and 10% on goods from China. Then this morning, he had a, quote, very friendly conversation with Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum and has confirmed that those tariffs are on hold for a month. Canada and China is another question. Those still seem to be on for now, but this is certainly one of those days where we are glad we have a timestamp. Franco, this is such a moving target.

[Frank Ordonez]

Yeah, it really is. And Trump was boasting earlier today that he is going to be having another conversation with the Canadian Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau. So a lot obviously can change. Whether they happen now or whether they happen in a month from now. Those would have a dramatic impact on the economies of those countries and economists say would have a dramatic impact on the US Economy if they were to continue. I think Trump has shown that this is often a tool that he uses to bend other nations or other leaders to his will. He has done that many times. And his team said this over the weekend on a lot of statements that they were putting out about these tariffs, saying that the US Government needs to use the leverage of the United States on other countries in national interests. And he criticized previous administrations for not using US Leverage or the US Economy as a way to help US Interests. He called access to the American economy a privilege.

[Tamara Keith]

But here's the thing I don't really understand. I'm not sure what he wants.

[Frank Ordonez]

I think what he is doing and I think what he has shown to do is he is like so many other issues, he has kept it very vague. That allows for different levels of goalposts to see what, you know, depending on what he can actually achieve. And he wants to reach a deal, but he never says what is the specific deal. It is very nebulous. Like here is addressing the board or cutting down on immigration, addressing fentanyl. But how and what are the measures? What are the things that you have to reach to meet that goal? He leaves that very open. And therefore, he can kind of determine what it is when the time comes, and he can determine whether this is a victory.

[Domenico Montanaro]

You know, this is a thing that Trump has done differently than other presidents because he has really kind of targeted a lot of allies to say that the United States isn't getting a fair shake in their relationship. It's not dissimilar to kind of the broader worldview of shutting down a lot of humanitarian aid that the United States gives out, because Trump views that as, what do I get in return? What does the United States get in return without having, like, a longer view of, you know, what an alliance means in case, what developing countries to have More democracies means to help the United States more broadly writ large and having better feelings for the country. That's not the kind of thing that Trump's worldview is built around. He's a businessman who is used to real estate deals in other countries and in the United States, where it's very much, how much can I leverage you to negotiate down to the best deal for me?

[Frank Ordonez]

And to that point, I was talking with a Republican strategist just last week about this being Trump's MO from way back when, even before he was a politician. He pointed to Mar A Lago and how Trump was able to get Mar A Lago. He actually low bid the offer, or at least offered a bid that was lower than what the owners wanted. When they turned it down, he bought some nearby property and threatened to basically buy block the beach view. As a Republican strategist put it to me, those were the tariffs that he put down and said, if you don't do what I want, this is going to hurt you. So he uses leverage, and this is how he uses leverage.

[Tamara Keith]

But let me just suggest on when you're talking about the US Economy and you're talking about tariffs, every mainstream economist in the country will tell you that putting tariffs in place with these countries will affect American consumers. It will make the products that Americans count on more expensive.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Well, to an extent, maybe, but I don't think he buys that. I think that you heard that from his treasury secretary, Scott Besant, when he testified during his Senate hearing and was asked about the potential of prices going up. And he said that he disagrees that they won't go up, that tariffs are a good thing for the country, that they'll leverage other countries to rectify unfair trade practices and that increased oil exploration will bring prices down. That's the theory of the case that they have. Most experts disagree with that and say that tariffs are paid by the consumers, not by the other country. That you're putting these tariffs on. That is amazing to me as somebody who covers politics, because prices, you could argue, were the reason that Donald Trump won the White House. And I've been struck within these first two weeks that Trump has actually said on two different occasions that prices, amazingly, are not his top priority, that it's immigration, that's his top priority. He's essentially said, you know, I've talked about how the price of apples doubled during the campaign, but after you say that, what are you gonna do?

[Tamara Keith]

Well, and he even last night on the tarmac after returning to the Washington, D.C. area from being In Florida, he conceded that prices could go up. He also said in a Truth social post earlier in the day, he says, this will be the golden age of America. Will there be some pain? Yes, maybe and maybe not. But we will make America great again and it will be worth the price that must be paid. So, Domenico, are there potential political consequences here?

[Domenico Montanaro]

I mean, there's huge risk in that, because if you're gonna create an own goal for yourself, you don't wanna create too many own goals, no matter how good your team is, because it's kind of hard to come back from that kind of a deficit, you know, I mean, the fact is, though, Trump may be lucky in the sense that he already inherited a strong US Economy that was headed in the right direction. I mean, we have to think about, we talk about inflation. Inflation peaked at around 9.1% in 2022. That has since come down dramatically to about 2 as of December of 2024. So it's already headed in the right direction. The economy, I guess they're thinking, is that they can absorb some of that. But at the same time, there's a reason why he's pushing off the tariffs to Mexico for another month, because the US does import a significant number of goods, not just avocados from Mexico, and that certainly would increase people's grocery prices if we sell those.

[Frank Ordonez]

I think the one point that I would just like to add is that Trump has shown that he is not afra to do carve outs. And he has done carve outs for key US Industries, for key industries, whether for companies that he is close to or that he has concerns about in the past. Now, I do think a lot of this has to do with show he can't talk about all these carve outs too much or he loses some of the leverage that he is trying to press on these other nations. I think he does know, and I've talked with diplomats in these other countries as well, that he knows, that these are weaker economies, that they have their own domestic politics that they have to deal with, and it is a lot harder for them to deal with these tariffs than it would be for the United States. So I think it is a bit of a gamble that he's betting that even if they do it, it won't last that long and he will still be able to use the leverage to get what he wants. I do agree that if this were a long, sustained, massive tariffs, it would have big impacts on the US but rarely has that been the case. And I think we have seen that over and over and again. And I think we're seeing that again today with Mexico backing off, that it is first for leverage. It is first a negotiating tool and not necessarily expecting it to be something that is long lasting.

[Tamara Keith]

Yeah.

[Frank Ordonez]

All right.

[Tamara Keith]

Well, we're going to leave it there for today. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.

[Frank Ordonez]

I'm Frank Ordonez. I also cover the White House.

[Domenico Montanaro]

And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.

[Tamara Keith]

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.