Episode Overview

Title: Trump Promised To Designate Antifa A Terrorist Group. Why Does That Matter?
Podcast: The NPR Politics Podcast
Date: October 29, 2025
Hosts/Reporters: Miles Parks (voting), Ryan Lucas (Justice Department), Mara Liasson (Senior National Political Correspondent)

The episode examines President Trump’s public promise to designate Antifa—a loosely organized, anti-fascist movement—as a foreign terrorist organization. The hosts discuss the legal, political, and societal implications of such a move, address whether it’s legally possible, and explore the wider consequences for American civil society, freedom of association, and political discourse. The episode features concerns from experts and unpacks the chilling effect such a designation could have, even if it never materializes into official policy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Did Trump Say? (01:23–01:37)

• During a roundtable with right-wing influencers, President Trump expressed willingness to designate Antifa a foreign terrorist organization, saying,

  “I think it’s the kind of thing I’d like to do, if you’d like…Let’s get it done. Okay, let’s get it done. Marco, we’ll take care of it.”
  — Donald Trump (01:28)

Is It Legally Possible? (01:37–03:37)

• Antifa as a Movement:
  • Antifa is not a cohesive or centralized organization; rather, it's an ideology.
  • FBI and experts have noted it lacks structure, leadership, or a defined base (01:44).
  • "[Antifa] is more of an ideology or a movement and not a centralized, cohesive group."
    — Ryan Lucas (01:44)
• Designation Authority:
  • Only the State Department, not the president, has authority to designate foreign terrorist organizations (FTOs).
  • Group must be cohesive, foreign, and pose a threat to U.S. interests.
  • Antifa fails each criterion: it’s not a cohesive group, is inherently domestic, and there’s no evidence of international terrorism involvement (01:44–02:57).
• Executive Orders vs. Statutes:
  • Trump issued an executive order labeling Antifa a domestic terrorist organization, but this is largely symbolic; there is no federal domestic terrorism statute with legal teeth (03:03).

Potential For Legal “Creativity” (03:37–04:40)

• Administration could attempt a “creative” argument by citing actions of allied governments (Hungary, Netherlands) designating Antifa as terrorist to claim international links (03:50).
• However, experts point out the lack of evidence for organizational structure, funding, or international coordination.

Definitional Problems: Who or What Is Antifa? (04:40–06:25)

• Membership Impossible to Define:

  • No leaders, no membership lists, no funding sources.
  • Justice Department, even after major investigations, presented no evidence of Antifa as an organized group.

  • “When that foreign terrorist organization is so ill-defined and nobody even knows what it is…that becomes potentially catastrophically dangerous for anybody, for everybody.”
    — Thomas Brzozowski, former DOJ domestic terrorism counsel (06:08)

• Governmental Overreach:

  • If definition is amorphous, the government could decide who is considered ‘Antifa’—allowing broad targeting of political opponents (06:25).

Potential for Retaliatory and Political Uses (06:38–08:39)

• Big Picture:

  • Mara Liasson frames the move as part of a broader Trump strategy: “defunding the left,” targeting groups that support Democratic candidates, and consolidating political power.
  • Past DOJ actions have been directed at perceived personal enemies; this opens the door for a wider crackdown (08:02).

• Powerful Legal Tools:

  • Designation would unlock counterterrorism powers—criminal charges, financial restrictions—against a broad swath of people the government deems ‘Antifa’ (07:36).

Legal Challenges: Who Would Sue? (08:39–09:18)

• The amorphous nature of Antifa means there’s no central organization to challenge the FTO designation in court.
• Individuals might be able to challenge actions against them, but the designation itself is likely to stand (08:55).

(Break for advertisements - skipped)

Post-Designation Implications for Society (11:06–14:16)

• Material Support Laws:

  • DOJ could bring “material support” charges—used against Al-Qaeda and ISIS—against anyone providing anything of value (“a $10 gift card, a bottle of water”) to alleged Antifa members.
  • 20-year+ prison sentences possible, chilling ordinary activism and association (11:06).

  • “Material support is very broadly defined…it can be as small as a bottle of water…potential penalty of up to 20 years in prison.”
    — Ryan Lucas (11:06)

• Civil Society Risk:

  • Universities, nonprofits, think tanks could lose insurance, scale back work on anti-fascism, or even cancel research/conferences (13:30).

  • “Insurance companies are not going to insure universities, foundations, nonprofits, think tanks that could be associated or be perceived to be associated with anything related to antifa and anti-fascism.”
    — Ryan Lucas (13:47)

  • Social media platforms may proactively censor anti-fascist or even “pro-democracy” speech for fear of being implicated (12:47).
  • The chilling effect may extend to pro-democracy groups if “antifa” is defined broadly (15:15).

• Narrative Power:

  • Trump uses this move to reinforce “enemy within” rhetoric and militarize government response to dissent.

  • “He stood in front of hundreds of military officers and told them that soon they would be fighting the enemy within…He wants to militarize the United States…”
    — Mara Liasson (11:53)

The Expanding Chilling Effect (14:26–15:42, 18:00–18:43)

• Blurring Political Categories:

  • If “antifa” becomes synonymous with being “anti-Trump,” the designation could criminalize wide swathes of opposition (14:26, 15:15).
  • Even pro-democracy organizations could be targeted if the administration says being anti-fascism is being anti-Trump (15:27).

  • “If he thinks that pro democracy means anti Trump, then being a pro democracy organization maybe ends up meaning that you’re gonna become illegal.”
    — Mara Liasson (15:27)

• Already Underway:

  • Chilling effect has started with Trump’s broad exercises of presidential power; law firms, universities, and prosecutors have already been cautious about criticizing him out of fear (18:15).

  • “I think the antifa thing is just yet another part of that.”
    — Mara Liasson (18:15)

• Symbolic Power of the Label:

  • Even non-binding executive orders paint the term “terrorist” onto ideological opponents, influencing public perception and rhetoric (18:43).

Will the Administration Actually Do It? (16:48–17:54)

• As of recording, no official FTO designation has happened; the State Department says Antifa is a “dangerous threat” but hasn’t started formal proceedings (16:48).
• Former DOJ official Brzozowski predicts the administration might follow through because Trump gave the order publicly:

  “Yeah, I think they might do it. People aren’t ready for it. People are not ready for it. If that goes through, I’m telling you. Unbelievable.”
  — Thomas Brzozowski (17:31)

• Hosts warn that just the prospect has already changed behavior.

Public and Political Reaction (15:42–16:48)

• Polling Difficulty:
  • Public understanding of Antifa is limited; poll responses unreliable.
  • Past Trump policies have largely polled poorly with the public, but enjoy stalwart support from his base.

  • “If you look at every single thing that the president has done…everything he’s done is unpopular…But he, because he has such strong support among his base…they still approve of him.”
    — Mara Liasson (16:00)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Thomas Brzozowski on Broad Dangers:

  “When that foreign terrorist organization is so ill-defined and nobody even knows what it is…it becomes potentially catastrophically dangerous for anybody, for everybody.”
  (06:08)

• Ryan Lucas on the Legal Tools Unleashed:

  “It would enable the administration to use the vast counterterrorism apparatus…to turn that inward domestically.”
  (07:36)

• Mara Liasson on Political Strategy:

  “It’s a whole project to defund the left, destroy the left…to make sure that there really is only one party that can win national elections, and that’s the Republican Party.”
  (08:02)

• Ryan Lucas on the Scope of Material Support Charges:

  “Material support is very broadly defined…a bottle of water, a $10 gift card…potential penalty of up to 20 years in prison.”
  (11:06)

• Miles Parks on Democracy vs. Antifa:

  “If you’re pro democracy, aren’t you somewhat anti fascism? I don’t know.”
  (15:15)

• Thomas Brzozowski on the Reality of Implementation:

  “The President himself…turned to his senior advisers, whose job it is to designate these entities, and instructed them to do it on tv. So, yeah, I think they might do it. People aren’t ready for it. People are not ready for it. If that goes through, I’m telling you. Unbelievable.”
  (17:31)

Summary Table of Key Moments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:23 | Trump signals desire to designate Antifa a terrorist organization | | 01:44 | Legal authority and group definition discussed | | 03:03 | Distinctions between foreign/domestic terrorism designations | | 06:08 | Dangers of vague definition, expert concern | | 07:36 | Tools of the counterterror apparatus could be turned on domestic dissenters | | 11:06 | "Material support" risks: ordinary actions could be criminalized | | 13:47 | Insurance and institutional consequences | | 15:27 | Broadening Antifa to "anti-Trump" or "pro-democracy" targets | | 16:00 | Polling and political popularity touched on | | 17:31 | Insider prediction: Administration likely to follow through on FTO designation | | 18:43 | "Terrorist" label has real rhetorical and behavioral impact even if not legally implemented |

Tone and Conclusion

The hosts remain factual and analytical, but convey strong concern about the implications. The mood is serious, at times alarmed, especially regarding the precedent set by politicization of terrorist designations, the possibility of unchecked executive power, and dangers to civil liberties.

Takeaway:
While as of the episode recording, Antifa has not yet been designated a foreign terrorist organization, the very consideration and executive signaling around such a move has already begun to shape the political landscape—sowing fear, enabling broad government action against dissent, and potentially criminalizing pro-democracy or anti-fascist speech and organizing.