Trump Promised To Designate Antifa A Terrorist Group. Why Does That Matter?

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: Trump Promised To Designate Antifa A Terrorist Group. Why Does That Matter?
Podcast: The NPR Politics Podcast
Date: October 29, 2025
Hosts/Reporters: Miles Parks (voting), Ryan Lucas (Justice Department), Mara Liasson (Senior National Political Correspondent)

The episode examines President Trump’s public promise to designate Antifa—a loosely organized, anti-fascist movement—as a foreign terrorist organization. The hosts discuss the legal, political, and societal implications of such a move, address whether it’s legally possible, and explore the wider consequences for American civil society, freedom of association, and political discourse. The episode features concerns from experts and unpacks the chilling effect such a designation could have, even if it never materializes into official policy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Did Trump Say? (01:23–01:37)

• During a roundtable with right-wing influencers, President Trump expressed willingness to designate Antifa a foreign terrorist organization, saying,

  “I think it’s the kind of thing I’d like to do, if you’d like…Let’s get it done. Okay, let’s get it done. Marco, we’ll take care of it.”
  — Donald Trump (01:28)

Is It Legally Possible? (01:37–03:37)

• Antifa as a Movement:
  • Antifa is not a cohesive or centralized organization; rather, it's an ideology.
  • FBI and experts have noted it lacks structure, leadership, or a defined base (01:44).
  • "[Antifa] is more of an ideology or a movement and not a centralized, cohesive group."
    — Ryan Lucas (01:44)
• Designation Authority:
  • Only the State Department, not the president, has authority to designate foreign terrorist organizations (FTOs).
  • Group must be cohesive, foreign, and pose a threat to U.S. interests.
  • Antifa fails each criterion: it’s not a cohesive group, is inherently domestic, and there’s no evidence of international terrorism involvement (01:44–02:57).
• Executive Orders vs. Statutes:
  • Trump issued an executive order labeling Antifa a domestic terrorist organization, but this is largely symbolic; there is no federal domestic terrorism statute with legal teeth (03:03).

Potential For Legal “Creativity” (03:37–04:40)

• Administration could attempt a “creative” argument by citing actions of allied governments (Hungary, Netherlands) designating Antifa as terrorist to claim international links (03:50).
• However, experts point out the lack of evidence for organizational structure, funding, or international coordination.

Definitional Problems: Who or What Is Antifa? (04:40–06:25)

• Membership Impossible to Define:

  • No leaders, no membership lists, no funding sources.
  • Justice Department, even after major investigations, presented no evidence of Antifa as an organized group.

  • “When that foreign terrorist organization is so ill-defined and nobody even knows what it is…that becomes potentially catastrophically dangerous for anybody, for everybody.”
    — Thomas Brzozowski, former DOJ domestic terrorism counsel (06:08)

• Governmental Overreach:

  • If definition is amorphous, the government could decide who is considered ‘Antifa’—allowing broad targeting of political opponents (06:25).

Potential for Retaliatory and Political Uses (06:38–08:39)

• Big Picture:

  • Mara Liasson frames the move as part of a broader Trump strategy: “defunding the left,” targeting groups that support Democratic candidates, and consolidating political power.
  • Past DOJ actions have been directed at perceived personal enemies; this opens the door for a wider crackdown (08:02).

• Powerful Legal Tools:

  • Designation would unlock counterterrorism powers—criminal charges, financial restrictions—against a broad swath of people the government deems ‘Antifa’ (07:36).

Legal Challenges: Who Would Sue? (08:39–09:18)

• The amorphous nature of Antifa means there’s no central organization to challenge the FTO designation in court.
• Individuals might be able to challenge actions against them, but the designation itself is likely to stand (08:55).

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(Break for advertisements - skipped)

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Post-Designation Implications for Society (11:06–14:16)

• Material Support Laws:

  • DOJ could bring “material support” charges—used against Al-Qaeda and ISIS—against anyone providing anything of value (“a $10 gift card, a bottle of water”) to alleged Antifa members.
  • 20-year+ prison sentences possible, chilling ordinary activism and association (11:06).

  • “Material support is very broadly defined…it can be as small as a bottle of water…potential penalty of up to 20 years in prison.”
    — Ryan Lucas (11:06)

• Civil Society Risk:

  • Universities, nonprofits, think tanks could lose insurance, scale back work on anti-fascism, or even cancel research/conferences (13:30).

  • “Insurance companies are not going to insure universities, foundations, nonprofits, think tanks that could be associated or be perceived to be associated with anything related to antifa and anti-fascism.”
    — Ryan Lucas (13:47)

  • Social media platforms may proactively censor anti-fascist or even “pro-democracy” speech for fear of being implicated (12:47).
  • The chilling effect may extend to pro-democracy groups if “antifa” is defined broadly (15:15).

• Narrative Power:

  • Trump uses this move to reinforce “enemy within” rhetoric and militarize government response to dissent.

  • “He stood in front of hundreds of military officers and told them that soon they would be fighting the enemy within…He wants to militarize the United States…”
    — Mara Liasson (11:53)

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The Expanding Chilling Effect (14:26–15:42, 18:00–18:43)

• Blurring Political Categories:

  • If “antifa” becomes synonymous with being “anti-Trump,” the designation could criminalize wide swathes of opposition (14:26, 15:15).
  • Even pro-democracy organizations could be targeted if the administration says being anti-fascism is being anti-Trump (15:27).

  • “If he thinks that pro democracy means anti Trump, then being a pro democracy organization maybe ends up meaning that you’re gonna become illegal.”
    — Mara Liasson (15:27)

• Already Underway:

  • Chilling effect has started with Trump’s broad exercises of presidential power; law firms, universities, and prosecutors have already been cautious about criticizing him out of fear (18:15).

  • “I think the antifa thing is just yet another part of that.”
    — Mara Liasson (18:15)

• Symbolic Power of the Label:

  • Even non-binding executive orders paint the term “terrorist” onto ideological opponents, influencing public perception and rhetoric (18:43).

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Will the Administration Actually Do It? (16:48–17:54)

• As of recording, no official FTO designation has happened; the State Department says Antifa is a “dangerous threat” but hasn’t started formal proceedings (16:48).
• Former DOJ official Brzozowski predicts the administration might follow through because Trump gave the order publicly:

  “Yeah, I think they might do it. People aren’t ready for it. People are not ready for it. If that goes through, I’m telling you. Unbelievable.”
  — Thomas Brzozowski (17:31)

• Hosts warn that just the prospect has already changed behavior.

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Public and Political Reaction (15:42–16:48)

• Polling Difficulty:
  • Public understanding of Antifa is limited; poll responses unreliable.
  • Past Trump policies have largely polled poorly with the public, but enjoy stalwart support from his base.

  • “If you look at every single thing that the president has done…everything he’s done is unpopular…But he, because he has such strong support among his base…they still approve of him.”
    — Mara Liasson (16:00)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Thomas Brzozowski on Broad Dangers:

  “When that foreign terrorist organization is so ill-defined and nobody even knows what it is…it becomes potentially catastrophically dangerous for anybody, for everybody.”
  (06:08)

• Ryan Lucas on the Legal Tools Unleashed:

  “It would enable the administration to use the vast counterterrorism apparatus…to turn that inward domestically.”
  (07:36)

• Mara Liasson on Political Strategy:

  “It’s a whole project to defund the left, destroy the left…to make sure that there really is only one party that can win national elections, and that’s the Republican Party.”
  (08:02)

• Ryan Lucas on the Scope of Material Support Charges:

  “Material support is very broadly defined…a bottle of water, a $10 gift card…potential penalty of up to 20 years in prison.”
  (11:06)

• Miles Parks on Democracy vs. Antifa:

  “If you’re pro democracy, aren’t you somewhat anti fascism? I don’t know.”
  (15:15)

• Thomas Brzozowski on the Reality of Implementation:

  “The President himself…turned to his senior advisers, whose job it is to designate these entities, and instructed them to do it on tv. So, yeah, I think they might do it. People aren’t ready for it. People are not ready for it. If that goes through, I’m telling you. Unbelievable.”
  (17:31)

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Summary Table of Key Moments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:23 | Trump signals desire to designate Antifa a terrorist organization | | 01:44 | Legal authority and group definition discussed | | 03:03 | Distinctions between foreign/domestic terrorism designations | | 06:08 | Dangers of vague definition, expert concern | | 07:36 | Tools of the counterterror apparatus could be turned on domestic dissenters | | 11:06 | "Material support" risks: ordinary actions could be criminalized | | 13:47 | Insurance and institutional consequences | | 15:27 | Broadening Antifa to "anti-Trump" or "pro-democracy" targets | | 16:00 | Polling and political popularity touched on | | 17:31 | Insider prediction: Administration likely to follow through on FTO designation | | 18:43 | "Terrorist" label has real rhetorical and behavioral impact even if not legally implemented |

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Tone and Conclusion

The hosts remain factual and analytical, but convey strong concern about the implications. The mood is serious, at times alarmed, especially regarding the precedent set by politicization of terrorist designations, the possibility of unchecked executive power, and dangers to civil liberties.

Takeaway:
While as of the episode recording, Antifa has not yet been designated a foreign terrorist organization, the very consideration and executive signaling around such a move has already begun to shape the political landscape—sowing fear, enabling broad government action against dissent, and potentially criminalizing pro-democracy or anti-fascist speech and organizing.

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Transcript

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[Chinesa]

Chinesa calling from the State Capitol Rotunda in Jefferson City, Missouri, where my uncle, the milkshake man of Walter Reed was, was just inducted into the Missouri Veterans hall of Fame.

[Mara Liasson]

Oh, congrats.

[Miles Parks]

This podcast was recorded at 11:24am on Wednesday, October 29, 2025.

[Chinesa]

Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but I will never stop beaming with pride. Love you, Uncle Jim.

[Ryan Lucas]

The milkshake.

[Miles Parks]

I'm Googling it. I'm Googling it.

[Ryan Lucas]

That's awesome.

[Miles Parks]

That is awesome. Yeah, there he is right here. Anyone else can Google it as well? The milkshake man of Walter Reed. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.

[Ryan Lucas]

I'm Ryan Lucas. I cover the Justice Department.

[Mara Liasson]

And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.

[Miles Parks]

And today on the show, we're talking about the possibility of the Trump administration designating antifa, the far left movement or ideology that's opposed to fascism as a foreign terrorist organization. Put President Trump was asked about taking this step during a roundtable with right wing influencers earlier this month, and here's what he said.

[Donald Trump]

Would you like to see it done?

[Miles Parks]

Yes, Mr. President, do you think it would help? They have foreign land all across Western Europe.

[Donald Trump]

I think it's the kind of thing I'd like to do, if you'd like. Does everybody agree? If you agree, I agree. Let's get it done. Okay, let's get it done. Marco, we'll take care of it.

[Miles Parks]

Ryan, let's just start here. This is a decentralized movement. If I'm not mistaken, can the president really take this step?

[Ryan Lucas]

So there are a couple parts of that question that we need to address. First off is yes, it is, experts say a more of an ideology or a movement and not a centralized, cohesive group. Former FBI Director Christopher Wray actually testified to that before Congress a couple years ago. As for whether the president can take this step, the authority to designate a group, a foreign terrorist organization lies with the State Department. There are certain criteria that have to be met. There's an office there that makes these recommendations. The criteria are, is it an organization? Is it a cohesive organization? Is it foreign? Is it engaged in terrorism that threatens Americans or American national security interests? On each of those criteria, there are serious questions as to whether antifa would Qualify. First of all, is it a cohesive organization? You and I just talked about that. You know, experts say it is not a cohesive organization. U.S. officials have repeatedly said that this is an inherently domestic movement, not foreign. And questions of whether it's engaged in terrorist acts, particularly terrorist acts abroad, we certainly, certainly haven't seen evidence of that. But this gets to a bigger question of whether it's something that the administration really wants to make happen, whether they could do so.

[Mara Liasson]

So, Ryan, the president hasn't issued an executive order. There hasn't been any kind of legal paper around this, correct?

[Ryan Lucas]

Well, no. And the president doesn't have the authority to designate anyone a foreign terrorist organization. That's with the State Department. They have the authority to do that. The president did, however, issue an executive order last month designated Antifa a domestic terrorist organization. The important difference here though is that there is no domestic terrorism statute. There is no. That doesn't have any legal meaning. So it doesn't have any legal impact. But designating something a foreign terrorist organization does have real legal teeth and would, would have serious repercussions kind of across life in the United States.

[Miles Parks]

Well, you have all these experts saying basically that Antifa does not fit any of the qualifications for what we would traditionally think of a foreign terrorist organization. I mean, how can administration fit what is essentially a circle peg into a square hole?

[Ryan Lucas]

So from talking to the experts who I did, including somebody who's to lead the office at the State Department who does these designations, basically said that, look, the administration could try to make a creative argument to, as he put it, stretch the truth to get this designation over the line because it would be seen as a policy objective of the President that he wants to see happen. Shortly after Trump said that he was going to designate Antifa a domestic terrorist organization, far right allies in Europe, in Hungary and the Netherlands said that they too would designate Antifa a terrorist organization or take steps to do so. And so the people who I spoke to said that the administration in its creative argument could point to those and say, look, Antifa is a threat overseas and use that as part of a basis to go about making this sort of legal argument in designating it.

[Miles Parks]

Well, this is what I'm a little bit unclear on because getting to this idea, which I think is the key idea here about it not being a real kind of organization. Are there people who are kind of card carrying members of Antifa? Is there a leader of Antifa? I mean, how would this actually work in practice in terms of the Justice Department or the Federal government determining who is a member of Antifa if there isn't this structure.

[Ryan Lucas]

So, look, one of the people who I spoke to is someone who used to run the office at the State Department, who makes these designations. And what he said is, I would really like to hear the State Department or the US Government say, who is the leader of Antifa? What is the structure of antifa? Where is the funding coming from? We know that during the first Trump administration, back in 2020, the President blamed some of the violence, a lot of the violence that we saw during the Black Lives Matter protests after the police killing of George Floyd. The president blamed a lot of that violence on Antifa, the sort of violence that we saw in Portland, for example. Certainly the Justice Department looked into questions of funding, tried to map out a network, and never presented any evidence publicly of those things. I think that the fundamental question that this raises here is if you can't define antifa, it's a very nebulous term which allows the administration to then deem who is a member of antifa. And I talked to Thomas Brzozowski, who's the former counsel for domestic terrorism at the Justice Department.

[Thomas Brzozowski]

When that foreign terrorist organization is so ill defined and nobody even knows what it is, and it potentially includes all activity that can be painted as left wing or whatever term you'd like to hang on it, that becomes potentially catastrophically dangerous for anybody, for everybody.

[Ryan Lucas]

And so it just opens up this toolbox for the government to crack down on anybody who they see as antifa, but they get to define what that means.

[Mara Liasson]

Ryan, how does this compare with the other steps that the Trump administration has taken to target political opponents? It sounds like this is part of his larger project to intimidate and terrorize and maybe defund all sorts of people that he considers enemies, and particularly the universe of groups that fund Democratic candidates.

[Ryan Lucas]

First of all, they have not taken this step yet. Yeah, this is something that he talked about at the White House on tv, but there hasn't been an actual designation yet. It's very important to say that we're talking about the possibility of it, but it would open up a toolbox with incredibly powerful tools in it to go after all sorts of folks if it decided that it wanted to do so.

[Miles Parks]

Well, at this point, I feel like the weaponization of the Justice Department has been aimed at very specific people. You know, the James Comey, the Letitia James of the world. Is it possible that sort of everyday people could be swept up in this? From what you're hearing, potentially?

[Ryan Lucas]

I mean, I think what it does is it would. It would enable the administration to use the vast counterterrorism apparatus essentially, that the government has created over the past 25 years since the 911 attacks, and to turn that inward domestically. And that's tools from criminal charges to financial leverage that it could use to push the political left, essentially, if it chose to do so.

[Mara Liasson]

You know, there's really two parts to this. Miles, you're correct that a lot of the Department of Justice efforts have been aimed at retribution for specific people that Trump feels hurt him. But there's another part to this which is not just retribution against Trump's enemies. It's a whole project to defund the left, destroy the left. Stephen Miller, the deputy White House chief of staff, has said that the Democratic Party is a domestic extremist organization. So I think this is just another step in the bigger project to make sure that there really is only one party that can win national elections, and that's the Republican Party.

[Miles Parks]

Assuming this happens, which, again, this has not happened yet. We're not positive it's going to happen. Only the president, as we heard before, has said he's interested in making it happen. Right. Where would it go from there in terms of is it something that could be challenged in court if he were to make a designation like this?

[Ryan Lucas]

This is something that could be challenged in court. The fundamental kind of problem that it might run into is if there is no antifa who would step forward to challenge the designation. And that's something that the experts that I spoke to all pointed to. So even if individuals could challenge specific actions that they faced, the underlying designation would remain in place.

[Miles Parks]

All right, we're going to take a quick break and more on all of this in just a moment.

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[Miles Parks]

And we're back, and we've been talking about President Trump saying he would designate antifa as a foreign terrorist organization. Ryan, what kind of broader implications could this move have on civil society?

[Ryan Lucas]

Well, look, the most immediate impact of this would be the ability for federal prosecutors to bring what's known as material support to a designated terrorist organization, those criminal charges. This has been kind of the bread and butter charge of federal prosecutors in cases against supporters of Al Qaeda and ISIS over the years. And material support is very broadly defined. It can be financial support, it can be educational support, but it can also be something as small as, say, a $10 gift card, a bottle of water. So it can be very small things. But there's a potential penalty of up to 20 years in prison. So it's a very significant charge. And so federal prosecutors could bring that charge against anybody who provides anything like that, even as small as a bottle of water, to something associated with antifa.

[Mara Liasson]

And you know, the other thing this does is it really helps Donald Trump tell the story that he's been telling. He's a very good storyteller. He stood in front of hundreds of military officers and told them that soon they would be fighting the enemy within, that they would be using the vast powers of the US Military to train in US Cities. So this part and parcel of how Trump wants to militarize the United States and also take all sorts of powers for himself that no other president has ever done.

[Miles Parks]

Okay, so basically we have this kind of amorphous group and the possibility of really serious charges being brought against anyone who supports this, what is essentially an ideology, I feel like, Ryan, that could lead to some other downstream impacts of people being really scared to associate with anything that could even vaguely be considered part of this ideology.

[Ryan Lucas]

Right. That's sort of the chilling effect, I think, is what you're getting at there. But they're also just kind of cascading effects that we would see across civil society, all sorts of sectors. From experts who I spoke to, there would be an impact on social media, for example, the experts who I spoke to, you know, noted that social media companies take their cues from the government on which groups are dangerous to keep them off their platforms. So you would see communications posts that could be associated with antifa would likely be taken down. Social media companies could create mechanisms to proactively take such stuff down and report it to the government when they see it. So that would immediately dial back what would be seen online, the sort of news and information that would be available. You also have potential impact on universities. Universities could scale back conferences that could be associated with anti fascism. The study of anti fascism faculty research could be curtailed for the same reason. And one thing that I hadn't really thought about until I spoke to a number of people is the potential impact from insurance companies. Insurance companies are not going to insure universities, foundations, nonprofits, think tanks that could be associated or be perceived to be associated with anything related to antifa and anti fascism. And so that would have drastic impacts and major implications on what people are willing to do and potentially be associated with.

[Miles Parks]

That kind of gets back to Mara's point of basically just kind of attacking all angles of like, it becomes really hard to be an organization essentially, if you can't be insured or you can all of these different aspects become risky.

[Mara Liasson]

Well, especially if antifa is defined as anti Trump, because we started out this conversation by saying there really isn't a thing called antifa. In other words, if it's defined so broadly, don't forget Trump said explicitly that he thinks that negative press coverage of him should be illegal. So, you know, if this morphs into a more general thing, if you're anti Trump, you're also pro antifa. Not unlike what the speaker of the House Mike Johnson said about the big no Kings Day protests. He said the protesters are pro Hamas. I mean, if that's where this is going to be, this extremely broad brush definition, it will just allow Trump to have more leverage against the people he thinks are against him to defund them and to make them illegal.

[Miles Parks]

I had the exact same thought mark, as covering voting. I talked to a lot of people who are kind of pro democracy or they identify as pro democracy. And I guess by definition, if you're pro democracy, aren't you somewhat anti fascism? I don't know.

[Mara Liasson]

You're being too literal in the dictionary definition. Yes, but Donald Trump decides now, and, you know, if he thinks that pro democracy means anti Trump, then being a pro democracy organization maybe ends up meaning that you're gonna become illegal.

[Miles Parks]

Well, getting to the politics of all this, I mean, is this a politically popular move? Mara, I do feel like I've seen some polling that indicates people are feeling a little bit squeamish about how President Trump has treated the First Amendment so far in his term. And so I guess, yeah, I don't know. How do you feel about this?

[Mara Liasson]

I think it would be very hard to poll on this because people don't know what Antifa is. But I do think that if you look at every single thing that the president has done, beyond deporting undocumented immigrants who have committed a crime, everything he's done is unpopular. That doesn't mean that he's losing overall support among his base. But I think that depending on how broadly the administration wants to define this, I would assume this would get the same kind of reaction that his other policies have, like, you know, ice grabbing people or all sorts of other things, even tariffs. I mean, most of the things that Trump has done have polled poorly. But he, because he has such strong support among his base, even when Republicans don't approve of his policies, they still approve of him.

[Ryan Lucas]

One of the things that we've mentioned it a couple times is all of this depends on the administration following through and actually designating Antifa as a foreign terrorist organization. Don't know that they're going to do that. I asked the State Department, which of course has the authority to do this, whether they've begun this process. The State Department said Antifa represents a dangerous threat to law and order. The US Has a variety of options to target terrorists and terrorist organizations, and the State Department will use all available tools to keep America safe. The question of whether they will or not, though, when I was talking to Thomas Brzozowski, the former counsel for domestic terrorism at the Justice Department, he said, ultimately, there's good reason to believe they will. And here's why he feels that way.

[Thomas Brzozowski]

The President himself, during a roundtable at the White House, turned to his senior advisers, whose job it is to designate these entities, and instructed them to do it on tv. So, yeah, I think they might do it. People aren't ready for it. People are not ready for it. If that goes through, I'm telling you. Unbelievable.

[Ryan Lucas]

So that's somebody with knowledge of what this would open up. And you can hear how concerned he is about what it might mean.

[Miles Parks]

Wow. So, I mean, even getting out of this will he, won't he Mindset. I do wonder about whether just the impending threat of the possibility is already going to lead to some level of chilling effect. What do you think, Mara?

[Mara Liasson]

Well, I think that that chilling effect has already started and it's not even about antifa. I mean, look at what happened to law firms and universities. Look at what happened to any prosecutor who prosecuted Trump. So I think that in general, Trump's exercise or expansion of executive power has already caused a chilling effect. And I think that people are very careful about criticizing him because they're worried about the consequences. Now, I think the antifa thing is just yet another part of that.

[Ryan Lucas]

And I would say that the chilling effect has come from the executive order that the president issued last month designated antifa domestic terrorism organizations, that it doesn't have legal meaning, but the practical impacts of signaling to the Americans and then kind of planting that bug in their brain that this is a terrorist organization, even though experts say it doesn't exist, that it's in ideology, but it plants that idea and that becomes the kind of the thought in the rhetoric around it.

[Miles Parks]

All right. Well, we can leave it there for today. Mara, thank you so much for joining us. I know you're not feeling great, but feel better.

[Mara Liasson]

Thanks.

[Miles Parks]

And just one more thing. Tomorrow night we'll be taping in front of a live audience here in D.C. in honor of our 10th anniversary. If you can't make it, don't worry, we have you covered. A version of that live show will be in your feed late tomorrow night, so make sure to check it out. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.

[Ryan Lucas]

I'm Ryan Lucas. I cover the Justice Department.

[Mara Liasson]

And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.

[Miles Parks]

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.

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