← The NPR Politics Podcast
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- [00:01]
A
This message comes from Carvana Finance. And buy your next vehicle with Carvana. Shop a huge selection, customize terms to fit your budget, and buy completely online. No hassle, no pressure. Get the car you love the easy way with Carvana. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover politics.
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I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.
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C
And I'm Carrie Johnson. I cover the Justice Department.
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A
And today on the show, President Trump has found another way to test the limits of his power as president, this time by suing his own government for billions of dollars. Tam, can you give us some background here? Why is Trump asking the government for money?
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B
Because he feels that he was wronged in a couple of different instances. So, one, he is filing a claim that adds up to $230 million against the Justice Department for the Russia investigation that happened during his first term. And also the investigation of his retention of classified documents after he left the White House. There was that search of Mar A Lago. He talks about it at rallies, that the FBI searched Mar A Lago and went through his wife's drawers, was in the closet, was in his son's bedroom. Trump sees it as a violation and part of a broader weaponization of government against him. And so much of administration is about payback, and, and these claims are in a way, seeking payback. And then there's the $10 billion lawsuit filed recently against the IRS during his first term in 2019. Some of his tax returns were leaked by a contractor who was working for the irs. That person is in prison. Now Trump is suing for damages because his tax returns were published.
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A
Yeah. Before we dig into how that's panning out, I want to talk to you, Carrie, about how something like this would normally work, because people sue the government all the time.
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C
They do. You know, the federal government does a whole bunch of stuff.
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B
Yeah.
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C
And most of these cases are basically small dollar cases about relatively small things, not DOJ investigations and tax leaks. I spoke about this with Rupa Bhattacharya. She actually worked inside the Justice Department as a lawyer for the unit that evalu these kinds of claims.
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B
The federal government is involved in a lot of activities, and often those activities result in injuries. Some of them are run of the mill. Right. Postal vehicles get into traffic accidents. VA doctors have malpractice claims brought against them. People slip and fall in federal buildings.
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C
And Rupa actually served as the special master for the 911 Victims Compensation Fund for several years inside the DOJ. She said in the most serious cases, the they almost never paid out more than $10 million. And President Trump is asking for 23 times that amount in his claims against the Justice Department.
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A
Yeah. A wrinkle in all this, though, is that usually this is something that leaders in the DOJ would negotiate these kind of settlements. Right. But some of the officials in Trump's Justice Department who would be overseeing all of this were, at some point, Trump's personal attorneys. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche represented Trump during that classified documents case. I mean, I would assume these are cases in which these folks would recuse themselves. Is that happening?
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C
You know, Ashley, I've asked that question of the Justice Department. They have not given me a straight answer. A spokesperson at DOJ said they're gonna handle these matters ethically. But they also have not answered specifically whether Todd Blanche, who represented Trump as a private lawyer before he joined the Justice Department, or Pam Bondi, who also did some private legal work for Trump, has recused themselves. Worth noting that the number three in at the Justice Department, Stanley Woodward, used to represent Trump's valet, who was an alleged co conspirator in the Mar A Lago case. We also don't know whether Woodward has recused himself. And this matters because in cases involving this much money, they get to the top of the Justice Department.
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B
Recusal is an issue that came up in the first Trump term when the Attorney General, Jeff Sessions, recused himself from the Russia investigation, and Trump never forgave him and made a really big deal about not wanting his people to recuse. So. So there might be a reason. We don't know whether these people have recused.
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C
I think there is a reason. The problem is that a number of good government groups and veterans at the Justice Department say not knowing gives rise to a lot of questions. One of the people I reached out to is Edward Whelan. He's a conservative lawyer in D.C. used to work in the DOJ. Here's what he had to say.
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The fear that many have is that the Department of Justice will simply fold and ask Donald Trump, the individual, how much money Donald Trump's administration should funnel to him.
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B
And Whelan isn't the only person who has pointed this out. Someone else has, and his name is Donald J. Trump.
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D
But isn't that a strange position to be in? I've got to make. I've got to make a deal. I negotiate with myself.
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B
That was Trump speaking at a rally earlier this year where he talked about the unusual nature of these cases. And, you know, he was asked in a recent interview by Tom Yamas on NBC News. Well, are you going to tell your people to settle? And he said, well, yeah, I, I will, but then I'm going to tell him that it's all going to charity. Now, is he actually telling them? Is he just admitting that he was going to tell his people to settle with him? Unclear. He says a lot of things, but he is not doing anything to bat down the idea that he is on both sides of this transaction.
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C
Yeah.
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A
All right. Well, we're going to take a quick break. More in a moment.
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This week on up first from NPR News, funding ran out for the Department of Homeland Security and Congress went home. DHS does a few important things like secure the airports or the coasts or the president. Now their funding is uncertain. And what does this say about the way Congress works or doesn't? Follow us for the latest each morning on up first on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
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On NPR's Wild Card podcast, Oscar nominee Wagner Mora on keeping his values on his path to success. There were moments where I was like.
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Oh, I really need that money, man. You know, But I'm like, I can't do this. I can't do that because otherwise I'll be miserable.
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Watch or listen to that Wild Card conversation on the NPR app or on YouTube at NPR Wildcard.
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I'm Jesse Thorne on Bullseye Yahya Abdul Mateen ii and the most surprising thing he learned after receiving one of the highest honors in acting.
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I'm so grateful that it happened at.
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That time because it did not make me happy at all.
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We'll get into that and his many roles playing various superheroes and villains. That's Bullseye. Find us in the NPR app@maximumfund.org or wherever you get your podcasts.
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A
And we're back. And we've been talking about President Trump suing his own government. Kerry, I mean, do you have a sense here of how strong Trump's claims actually are? Like, does he have any merit here?
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C
You know, I talked with some lawyers who used to work in the government, and they've raised some doubt about that with respect to the claims against the Justice Department for those criminal investigations. Basically, in normal fashion, the DO J defends prosecutors and FBI agents when they've been sued or named as part of lawsuits, especially in the Mar? A Lago case because a federal judge signed off on a search warrant there and found probable cause. So there are strong legal defenses or potentially strong legal defenses. And then with respect to the president's separate lawsuit against the Internal Revenue Service over the leak of his tax returns. Some lawyers are telling me that those claims may have expired under the statute of limitations. And it's really not clear how Trump could sue for conduct that occurred when he was in charge of the government at the time. And also remember, the person who has been charged with the leaking and convicted was a federal contractor, not a federal government employee, which adds another legal wrinkle. So they're questions about how strong Trump's arguments would be in court.
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A
Yeah, I mean, and, Tam, you kind of got to this. A lot of this is political, right? They use lawsuits as political tools. Is that what's going on here?
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B
I spoke to a senior White House official who told me that for Trump, these claims amount to unfinished business, that he really does feel like he was wronged by the government and he wants payback. And as you say, he files lawsuits a lot. He has done this throughout his career, whether in office or out of office. You know, in addition to these suits, he's also sued the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, cbs, abc. Any given day, he expresses displeasure through lawsuits. Sometimes they are frivolous. They have little chance of success. But this is how he communicates in these cases. Regardless of the merits, he really does hold all the cards. I do need to mention that I spoke to someone who is a spokesman for Trump's private legal team, and he gave us a statement that, quote, president Trump continues to hold those who wrong America and Americans accountable. I will add that the American he seems to be most concerned about being wronged is himself.
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A
Kerry. I mean, we ask this a lot about Trump, but has any sitting president ever tried to sue his own government before?
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C
Not that I've been able to find. And in fact, you know, one suggestion that Ed Whelan, the conservative lawyer who used to work inside the doj, has made is, at least with respect to this lawsuit Trump has filed against the irs. Why not just put a pause on that? And the courts can deal with that easily once Trump leaves office. And, you know, I haven't heard a good counter argument for why that can't wait.
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B
Trump, in his public statements at least, seems to be unbothered by the idea that you've never seen this before at a rally in Rocky Mountain, North Carolina. It was supposed to be about the economy, but he. He started talking about the Mar? A Lago search and then the lawsuit, and he acknowledged this while talking about himself in third person, as if he were a newscaster.
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D
And they do say that, you know, it's never been a case like this. Donald Trump sues the United States of America. Donald Trump becomes president, and now Donald Trump has to settle the suit.
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A
Trump says that he's doing this on behalf of the American people, but I mean, wouldn't it be the American people who are paying for this? And potentially we're talking here about huge sums of money, taxpayer dollars that Trump could get if he wins. I mean, I do wonder how that aligns with this broader White House effort to talk about affordability and all of that.
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C
Taxpayers would be on the hook for this settlement, if there is one. And it would come out of something called the judgment fund, which is kind of like a pool of money that the government keeps in store for when the federal government gets sued and has to pay out settlements.
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B
And as Kerry said before, the amount that he is asking for is just like orders of magnitude more than is normally paid out of that fund. And to your second question, I asked the President about this on Air Force One. Asked him, like, come on, the American people are gonna be stuck holding the bag here.
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Well, anything I win, I'm gonna give 100% to charity.
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B
But that still takes it from the.
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American people because they give money to charity anyway. They give away $40 billion a year to charity. Our government.
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B
It's unclear where he got that number from. I've tried to replicate it and find it. I've asked the White House to explain. So we don't know precisely where he's getting this number about how much the government gives to charity, but it's. He often uses the idea of charitable giving as a shield when he is doing something that might be considered, you know, politically unpopular.
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C
And by the way, even if the president were to give that money to charity, lawyers tell me he would still get something of benefit, a tax break.
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A
I mean, what is your sense that voters will buy that?
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B
I don't have a scientific sample, but I will tell you that maga, Twitter, at least, is totally cool with the idea of the President getting this money and giving it to charity. The response was like, look, he says he's gonna give it to charity. Why does everybody keep asking about this? Problem solved. You know, I think that like so many things in our very polarized time, if you are predisposed to be charitable towards the president and his position, then he was absolutely wronged and he absolutely deserves the money. And isn't this great of him to give it to charity? And if you are predisposed to have concerns about conflicts of interest or ethics or things like that, then you look at this and say, this is self dealing but has this really broken through with the American people? I don't think so. This is not one of the top stories that people have been talking about.
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Nope.
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All right.
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Well, let's leave it there for today. Make sure you don't miss a single episode by hitting the follow button wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover politics.
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I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.
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And I'm Carrie Johnson. I cover the Justice Department.
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And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.