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- [00:01]
Tamara Keith
This is Madeline from Chicago celebrating my 35th birthday on Maui.
- [00:04]
Sarah McCammon
This podcast was recorded at 1:06pm Eastern Time on Monday, December 9, 2024.
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Tamara Keith
Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but I'll be old enough to be president of the United States. Here's the show. Happy birthday.
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Deirdre Walsh
Nice place to have a birthday.
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Sarah McCammon
Yeah. Can we join you? Hey, there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover politics.
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Deirdre Walsh
I'm Deirdre Walsh. I cover Congress.
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Tamara Keith
And I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.
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Sarah McCammon
Today on the show, unpacking some of the things President elect Donald Trump said this weekend in his first major broadcast interview since the election. Trump talked about many things on Sunday on the NBC show Meet the Press with Kristen Welker. And Tam, I want to start with an issue that was at or near the very top of the priority list for many voters this year and a longtime priority for Trump. That, of course, is immigration. He was asked about his plan to carry out mass deportations, a big theme of this campaign, and what that might mean for families with children, some of whom, if they were born in the US Would be citizens.
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Donald Trump
I don't want to be breaking up families. So the only way you don't break up the family is you keep them together and you have to send them.
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Sarah McCammon
All back, even kids who are here legally.
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Donald Trump
Well, what you got to do if they want to stay with the father? Look, we have to have rules and regulations.
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Sarah McCammon
Trump also signaled he was open to creating some kind of a deal to protect dreamers. Those are the people who were brought to the country illegally when they were young, when they were children. Tam, what did you hear in those comments?
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Tamara Keith
Trump started out by saying that he wanted to start his deportation plans with people who are convicted criminals or who are dangerous. And then you would have to work your way down from there, he said. On family separation, he admitted that this could lead to images that could turn the American public against these policies. But he said that it had to be done on the dreamers, saying that he wanted to work with Democrats. That is, in essence, a softening, he says. Some of these people are middle aged at this point. Where would you send them? Back to a place that they never knew because they came here as young children. Interesting, though, that he has a lot more sympathy for them and politically the whole political universe has a lot more sympathy for them than he does for children who were born here and would have to choose whether to stay in the country where they were born and where they've been living or to go back to their parents home country if their parents were being deported.
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Sarah McCammon
You know, it's interesting, Deirdre, this issue of dreamers that's been around for a long time, as you know. I'm thinking back to Trump's first term. Early on in his administration, he tried to do away with what was known as daca, the policy to protect dreamers under the Obama administration. Trump then tried to work out some kind of an immigration deal to protect dreamers, but the Republican conference in Congress held him back. Do you think Republicans are going to back Trump on this this time?
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Deirdre Walsh
I mean, this was his number one campaign issue. So Republicans are going to support whatever policies President Elect Trump rolls out. But yeah, I mean, he did cut a deal essentially with then House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the minority leader at the time, Chuck Schumer, to pay for his border wall with a deal to protect daca. Republicans weren't happy about that and he sort of backed down from that deal at the time in terms of what's going. So while Trump is saying this, that he could work with Democrats, the reality is that the Republican controlled Senate and the Republican controlled House are going to move first on a package that they can pass with just Republican votes on a party line that is supposed to focus on border and energy policy and money. This is the sort of like the first of several big packages that Republicans plan to move early in the trifecta of controlling the White House in both chambers of Congress. I would be surprised that if there were any kind of bipartisan element in there. Plus, it's a very narrow package that they have to pass under strict rules in terms of what can impact the budget. You know, maybe down the line he could negotiate something with Democrats, but that is not the top policy and that's not what Republicans on the Hill are focused on at all.
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Tamara Keith
And it's also not what he campaigned on. He did not campaign on a humane solution for dreamers. He campaigned on securing the border. He campaigned on mass deportations. There were signs at his rallies that said mass deportations. The dreamers thing is part of a broader theme, I think in this interview where he's sort of the generous victor and he is saying, no, but you know, I'm going to be president for all Americans. I'm going to be humane. I think that this was part of that sort of theme that came up throughout the interview.
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Sarah McCammon
Yeah, I mean, Deirdre, you just said you don't expect a bipartisan deal. Do Democrats have any room to maneuver Here. I mean, they obviously want to stop a lot of the things that Trump is proposing, but they do want to protect dreamers, something he's saying he wants to do, right?
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Deirdre Walsh
Well, I mean, in order to pass anything, they're going to need bipartisan support. I mean, some of these big policies that they're planning to run through with procedures to get around Democrats will be very limited. I do think in this political moment, Democrats are feeling some pressure, political pressure to address the border. They clearly lost a lot of ground on the issue. The voters sort of trusted Trump and Republicans much more on the issue of border security. So a lot of Democrats are saying we need to do something to show we care about border security. There could be a world in which they talk about backing some additional funding for more border agents, more ICE agents, as part of some kind of bipartisan deal. But I covered Congress and immigration negotiations for a really long time, and it's the toughest issue to maneuver. I don't see the Republican base embracing some of the types of bipartisan things that have helped create deals in the past. We'll see. But I think for now, I think Republicans are very focused on the enforcement side and backing the president. I mean, I think we could see a combination of executive orders just get around Congress.
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Sarah McCammon
Okay, time for a quick break. We'll have more in just a moment about President Elect Trump's agenda and the role of Congress. And we're back. I want to take a moment to talk about Trump's nominations for his Cabinet. He provided a defense on the program of Pete Hegseth, his pick to run the Pentagon. That's after Hegseth has been accused of sexual misconduct and alcohol abuse, which he has denied. Deirdre, where does the Hegseth nomination stand? How are his prospects looking on Capitol Hill?
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Deirdre Walsh
I think they're looking better. After President Trump's very public support for Hegseth, I think he still has a lot of work to do in terms of building support and getting the votes he needs. But I think there was some question as these stories swirled last week and he was making the rounds on the Hill when Trump wasn't saying anything. And now that he's come out and vouched for him and believes he'll get through and says senators are saying good things about him, I think it adds to the public pressure campaign that a lot of Republican senators are feeling from the base that Trump deserves to get these people through. And anyone who doesn't vote for them is going to come under immense pressure. You already see it with Iowa Republican Senator Joni Ernst, who has been careful about what she's saying, but is signaling that she has major concerns with Pete Hegseth. Ernst served in the military, has a daughter in the military, was a survivor of sexual assault, and all of these issues are very important to her. And she's meeting again with Pete Hegseth. And I think as he makes additional rounds with people like Susan Collins of Maine, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, we're going to see a lot more pressure on Republicans. And I think Republicans in the Senate keep saying the same thing. Let the process play out, you know, let him prove himself through public hearings. And they know that those hearings are going to be tough, that is, if.
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Tamara Keith
He makes it to a hearing. You know, I think that in the past there have been candidates for cabinet positions who faced difficult issues. For whatever reason, their votes might not be adding up. And typically they have chosen instead of going through a public hearing, that could be really painful, just bowing out. Now, that may not be the case with Hexeth because he's actually compared himself to Justice Cass Kavanaugh and his hearing, which was a very fiery hearing and extremely uncomfortable, but Kavanaugh got confirmed. And I think Hegseth is taking a page from that book.
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Sarah McCammon
Kavanaugh, who was also, of course, facing allegations of sexual abuse.
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Deirdre Walsh
I mean, I've heard the Kavanaugh example raised by Senate Republicans who aren't necessarily coming out against any of these nominees, but saying this is what you should be prepared for. Democrats are going to have tough questions and are going to be really aggressive. So a lot of the behind the scenes meetings with these nominees are expected to be pretty frank and thorough, which is what Joni Ernst said about her meeting with Hegseth, because they don't want any surprises. They want to get through any concerns they have before they come out in public.
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Sarah McCammon
Now, Trump also took the opportunity to defend a couple of other controversial nominees. Tulsi Gabbard, his choice for Director of National Intelligence, who has made comments sympathetic to Russia, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Trump's health and Human Services secretary pick who is skeptical of vaccines, among other controversial positions. Does publicly defending these nominees help put pressure on Republican lawmakers to move forward?
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Deirdre Walsh
I think, without a doubt. I mean, I think the more Trump gets involved, the more he publicly lobbies Republican senators, the better the prospects are for his nominees. I think a lot of these also controversial picks, Gabbard for dni, RF for hhs, Cash Patel for FBI, have benefited from the sort of all the attention being on Pete Hegseth. And now that we're going to see some of them started making the rounds today on Capitol Hill meeting with Senate Republicans. There's going to be more interest in their nominations and questions about concerns senators may have in terms of Tulsi Gabbard. I think that the news about the Syrian regime being toppled also puts another spotlight on her nomination because of her high profile visit back when she was a member of Congress, when she met with then Syrian President Bashar al Assad after there was evidence that he had been gassing his own people. So that was already going to be an issue for Tulsi Gabbard. It just sort of reignites interest in the issue just because of the news there.
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Sarah McCammon
Trump also talked about a couple of other things on Meet the Press with Kristen Walker that he can do without Congress. The first is tariffs.
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Donald Trump
Tariffs are going to make our country rich. Tariffs are going to help US pay off $35 trillion in debt. Tariffs are going to make our country safe because China, as an example, doesn't want to play games with us. If we're going to do tariffs on them, they don't want to play games. And we have a lot of games being played on us right now.
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Sarah McCammon
Well, I think that. Okay, Tim, another favorite Trump topic. What did you hear there?
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Tamara Keith
It's as if tariffs are a magical wand that can do everything. At another part in the interview, he said that he had prevented a war with tariffs. But more notable was Welker really pressed him on whether most mainstream economists say that tariffs are basically a tax on American consumers. And Trump simply doesn't see it that way. She pressed him on it was like, well, could prices go up? He said, well, they could, but I don't think they will. I don't think they did before. He has an orthodoxy that tariffs are good and that they are part of the toolbox, or maybe the most essential part of the toolbox in international negotiations for the United States.
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Deirdre Walsh
I think Republicans in Congress are split on this issue. There are still a lot of Hill Republicans who are very skeptical, like economists, about what the impact of these tariffs would be. I think a lot of them are sort of withholding comment because they believe that Trump may be using this as a political, you know, sort of diplomatic tool as opposed to being really serious about it. And I think, you know, they're just going to sort of withhold any kind of criticism until they are faced with what he actually does.
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Sarah McCammon
Another thing you talked about pardons, the possibility of pardoning people convicted of crimes in association with the January 6th insurrection at the Capitol. He said he would do that on day one of his administration. How would that go down with lawmakers if it is indeed his first act?
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Deirdre Walsh
Deirdre, he campaigned on this. I mean, he's restating campaign promises he made. I don't think people would be very surprised. I think it would depend on sort of how broad the pardons are. If they are focused on some of the people who didn't attack cops or didn't assault cops, that could be something that Republicans on the Hill would think would be okay. I also think that in terms of January 6, a lot of Republicans on the Hill have really left it in their rearview mirror, have seen their base not be as upset about the impact and the violence at the Capitol that day. And a lot of them just sort of downplay it or have moved on. Despite the fact that, you know, over a thousand people have been convicted, and this is the largest investigation that the Justice Department has ever done on something like this. It's not something that really animates Republicans on the Hill. And I don't think they're going to have much criticism for whatever Trump decides.
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Tamara Keith
I think we have to wait for day one to see what actually does happen. There's one other thing related to January 6th that came up in this interview. At one point, he was asked about going after President Biden, and he said, no, success is my retribution. You know, we succeed. That's all we need. But then he was asked about the select committee that investigated his actions on and around January 6th and the attack on the Capitol. And he said this.
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Donald Trump
A whole year and a half worth of testimony. Do you know that I can't get. I think those people committed a major crime, and Cheney was behind it, and so was Benny Thompson and everybody on that committee.
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Sarah McCammon
We're gonna.
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Donald Trump
For what they did. Yeah, Honestly, they should go to jail.
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Deirdre Walsh
I mean, this was a pretty stunning statement. I think that there's been a lot of similar rhetoric from Trump on the campaign trail, But I think it was such a departure in tone from the rest of the inter interview and saying that his inaugural speech was going to be one of unity and then saying he wants to throw members of Congress in jail who investigated him. I think that some of these people know that they are going to be targeted in some form by Trump. But I still think that this is something that is in a different category than pardoning some of the people who were there that day, who didn't get in the building, who didn't attack the police. I think this is something that it takes it to sort of a very different level. I also think that Trump was also being Trump in the sense where he kind of would say something and then be like, well, you know, it's really up to the FBI director or Pam Bondi, his nominee, to run the Justice Department in terms of, you know, whether they think these people did something criminally wrong.
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Tamara Keith
Of course they were picked because they say they want to investigate the investigators and because they are loyal to Trump. I mean, I imagine they're going to get asked about this in their confirmation hearings, should those hearings, for sure, for sure.
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Deirdre Walsh
No doubt they will be asked about this.
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Sarah McCammon
And we'll be keeping an eye on those hearings when they begin. All right. That's all for today. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover politics.
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Deirdre Walsh
I'm Deirdre Walsh. I cover Congress.
- [16:16]
Tamara Keith
And I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.
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Sarah McCammon
And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.