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- [00:00]
NPR Host
The NPR network has always been powered by the people it serves, not by shareholders or special interests, but by people like you and me who believe in a free and independent press. We're approaching one year since Congress eliminated federal funding for public media. Together, we continue the kind of journalism that we, the public, rely on. Please support this work today at plus.npr.org
- [00:24]
Miles Parks
President Trump says communism is a big threat.
- [00:28]
Franco Ordonez
It is the greatest threat to our country, including World War I, World War II, Pearl harbor, or even 9 11.
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Miles Parks
Trump and other Republicans are talking about communism as candidates backed by the Democratic Socialists of America have won primaries in Colorado, in New York and in Washington, D.C. let's unpack what could be a key line of attack ahead of the midterms. It is the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.
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Elena Moore
I'm Elena Moore. I cover politics.
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Franco Ordonez
And I'm Franco Ordonez. I cover the White House.
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Miles Parks
So, Franco, that clip that we just heard a little bit of was President Trump at Mount Rushmore on July 3rd from this big speech he gave ahead of America's 250th. You've noticed this communism line of attack becoming a more common theme for the president.
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Franco Ordonez
I mean, he's really been pushing this message for the last few weeks through social media in many, many speeches, from his July 4th speech to even his press conference in Ankara, Turkey, which obviously was dominated by news about Iran. But he made sure to bring this threat from communism you just heard in the tape about. He's saying it's a bigger threat than Pearl harbor, than 9 11. He said it at that press conference as well. I mean, this is no doubt becoming a defining message of the midterms for the president. And both he and his team feel this is resonating with his base.
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Miles Parks
It's worth noting also, this is not just Trump doing this. We heard speaker of the House Mike Johnson mention at a press conference yesterday
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Mike Johnson
this is not a game. Everybody needs to understand these crazy little mini Mamdanis who are popping up all around the country. They are a danger to you and your family. This is not a game. If they promise you free stuff, there is far more beneath those promises that even some of these people do not understand themselves. This is not a game. This is not our father's Democrat Party. This is not we're not arguing over marginal tax rates anymore. We're arguing over whether or not freedom is going to survive.
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Miles Parks
So Johnson there referring to New York City Mayor Zoran Mamdani, who is a member of the Democratic Socialists of America and he's also referring to a number of other candidates who are coming out of primaries in Colorado and New York are also on the ballot and other places. I want to dig into the kind of the big picture claim here with you a little bit. Are DSA candidates communists? Like, are these two things the same or can you unpack this a little bit?
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Elena Moore
Yeah, they're, they're not the same. I think it's probably worth getting into some of the like, definitions and then we can talk politics and Franco can expand on this. But you know, broadly speaking, communism is like no capitalism, you know, anti capitalism, no private companies, you know, that could be anything from a mass corporation to a small independent business. Democratic socialism, yes, talks about a lot of these ideas of a stronger, you know, federal social safety net, additional, you know, federal resources to people. But the ideas go through the current US System of government. You know, it's a democracy, so democratic socialism. And you know, more than anything, the democratic socialist candidates we're seeing are really emphasizing that message of the government should be helping the working person get their basic needs. And in today's world, where, or in today's country where we know the top issue for many people is affordability, concerns about high prices, these candidates are emphasizing that point, talking about things like Medicare for all for free childcare, higher minimum wage, you know, more affordable housing. And that's where we're really seeing the, the emphasis on the DSA label is this economic populism. But it's definitely confusing when you're hearing from the right, this idea of equating DSA with full on communism and this idea of like extremism when on the left, these candidates are really emphasizing issues over even their ideological preference.
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Miles Parks
Why do you think this is popping up so much right now, Franco?
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Franco Ordonez
Well, Trump's bringing up largely because it's the midterms. You know, Trump is looking for ways to boost support among his base. The reality is polls. He's not doing so great in the polls. And the two big issues that he ran on and he was elected on, the economy and immigration are not so much resonating with American voters. You know, polls show that Americans feel that some of the immigration tactics that this administration took went too far. And two citizens died during some of those operations earlier this year. Even in the past few weeks, a couple people have been killed in Department of Homeland Security operations and immigration enforcement operations. And then the economy, of course. Gas prices are still high, energy prices are still high, largely due to Iran. And I didn't even mention dissatisfaction with the war in Iran. So he's looking for a political message that can resonate, and this is one of them. As one professor who specializes in political messaging told me that Trump is looking for the next boogeyman. And I should say this is not necessarily a new one. He did in the 2020 campaign against Biden. He did it in the last election, our listeners may remember, when he was really struggling for an attack line against Harris, the former vice president. Of course, he ended up landing on Comrade Kamala and he was even pushed by some Republicans asking why he was getting so personal. And Trump said it was part of his strategy. I think that we're hitting a nerve. I think this is a different kind of a race. All we have to do is define our opponent as being a communist or a socialist or somebody that's going to destroy our country. You know, let's not forget that Trump is 80 years old. He grew up in this Cold War era. I mean, where at a time, you know, this was a time where being called a communist was one of the worst things you could be called. And Trump is no stranger to using strong rhetoric.
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Miles Parks
I'm curious, Elena, how the candidates themselves, these DSA aligned candidates, respond to this. If basically what you're saying when you talk about these definitions, this definition of communism versus democratic socialism, these people probably feel like their views are being mischaracterized. How do they respond to these claims, these allegations?
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Elena Moore
I put that question to Claire Valdez recently. She is one of several DSA backed candidates who won their pretty competitive Democratic primary races in New York City last month. And you know, she's pretty unapologetic about her views. And she kind of brushed it off when I asked her. And she was like, this is not a new talking point. You know, this is a, a movement that very much understands that they're going to be painted as extreme. And I think they just, the goal is to emphasize the issues yet again. And so I think, you know, when I've talked to her, other folks in this movement, it gets back to like that's in, you know, summarizing here, like that's all hot air and like we're focused on the brass tacks basically. And I think that is a message that kind of goes back. I think about like someone like Bernie Sanders who that was like his whole thing when he ran where he was just like, I don't want the fanfare. I want to talk about the issues like the billionaires need to go like that. And I think that that's kind of like the similar response we're seeing now where it's almost kind of brushed off and gets back to the thing we do know is resonating with people, which is the like very specific, concrete policies that people are running on.
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Miles Parks
I mean, dig into that a little bit more because I am, it does. I've been struggling to kind of understand exactly what's going on with the electorate right now. We are definitely seeing a lot of these ideas and these candidates energize the Democratic base. Why is that?
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Elena Moore
Yeah, yeah. And we should be clear, like we've been talking about like solid blue, solid, safe Democratic districts and largely in House races. So this is like such a specific group of people. And usually it's a. So far, you know, the places really resonated is New York City, Denver, Los Angeles, very Democratic left leaning places that are in no way a representation of the broader United States electorate. That said, I think it's important to emphasize this because these voters, broadly speaking, represent partially a part of the Democratic base that has been more and more distancing from the broader party for years. And we've seen how that has affected Democrats in previous elections. Especially when enthusiasm is important and midterms, as we know, isn't, it's important to have enthusiasm. You need your base to show up in an off year election. It's kind of the first time, I think, in several cycles where we're seeing some Democrats have a really effective and energizing message. And that message is, you know, the reason I think a lot of people will say is because it's rooted in that affordability issue. And very specifically, and we know in polling, like nationwide, that is the top issue for Americans. And like Franco said, we know that it's something Republicans are specifically struggling on. I mean, the last NPR PBS News mayor's poll from June found that 6 in 10Americans disapprove of Trump's handling of the economy. Simply put, like, these candidates are popular. A lot of them are younger, A lot of them have like massive online presences. They're like unafraid to kind of break traditional political norms at a time where we know a lot of people around the country are craving that. And so I think in the same way we've talked lots for lots of years about how Trump is a showman, he's good at speaking and he can talk for hours. A lot of these candidates have, have a level of energy maybe so to speak, that like rivals that in some ways. And I think that's something that Trump clocks. And I think that's something that a lot of effective communicators across D.C. are noticing.
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Miles Parks
Well, it's funny too because I feel like when we talk about these political issues, communism versus Democratic socialism, it sounds complicated, but actually the ideas themselves are really simple and make for really effective ads. And TikTok videos. When I think about like Mamdani just being on TikTok saying free buses or free childcare or like government run grocery stores, these are concepts that even if people don't agree with them, they at least understand them. But I do wonder from your perspective, Franco, as these candidates keep advancing out of Democratic primaries where the Republicans are like, yes, this is basically making the attack ads easier.
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Franco Ordonez
I mean, I think for Trump, I think possibly that may be true. But I mean, just to Elena's point, I mean, they are hitting on a note that is resonating with voters. And I would argue it's not just only resonating with Democrat voters or very left wing Democrats. I mean, this affordability campaign, I mean there was some crossover Mondani in New York, won some Trump voters. You know this. The economy is the big issue of the day. Republicans have dominated that issue for a long time. And it's something that finally some Democrats have a message that seems to be resonating with it. What I find fascinating is kind of the divide within the Democratic Party and the older Democrats struggle with these DSA candidates. They can't really kind of get together on a message. But I think there is no question that this younger cohort of DSA candidates are hitting something. And a lot of it has to do with kind of like this populism message. A lot of it, I would argue, taking some of the A page from Trump's political handbook and running with it.
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Miles Parks
All right, we're going to dig into that idea specifically right after this.
- [12:15]
NPR Host
Everyone wants to know if AI is conscious, but consciousness is really hard to define.
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Franco Ordonez
It's the experience we're having right now,
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Elena Moore
what it is like to eat chocolate or to look at the blue sky.
- [12:28]
NPR Host
So how do we know who or what is conscious? Check out the new ways scientists are finding to measure the elusive phenomenon on shortwave. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Tanya Moseley, co host of Fresh air. From mail in ballots to racial gerrymandering, a lot is at stake for America's free and fair elections. I spoke with journalist Ari Berman about what he calls a final blow to the voting rights.
- [12:54]
Franco Ordonez
My fear is that we are returning
- [12:56]
Miles Parks
to a politics of Jim Crow in
- [12:58]
NPR Host
the South Listen to Fresh Air on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [13:04]
Elena Moore
The last phase of the World cup
- [13:05]
NPR Host
is underway, and the NPR network has been there since the first whistle.
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Franco Ordonez
Cape Verde is a small African island nation that surprised everyone.
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Miles Parks
By making it to the World Cup.
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NPR Host
Ronaldo did something no man or woman has done before.
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Miles Parks
He scored goals in six different World
- [13:19]
Franco Ordonez
Cups for a total of 10.
- [13:20]
NPR Host
As we enter the final matches of the tournament, head to the NPR app for all things World cup from the NPR network.
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Miles Parks
And we're back. So, Elena, I want to start right there with this point that Franco made a second ago that basically these Democratic socialist candidates, these candidates who are backed by the dsa, seem to be tapping into something that looks very familiar to the sort of Trump campaign in 2016. Do you see that, too?
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Elena Moore
Oh, totally. I mean, I don't think anyone will forget for a long time that Trump's like, whole message in 2016 was like drain the swamp. About, like DC which is a swamp, as we know from the heat.
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Miles Parks
Yes.
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Elena Moore
Having way too many in, in Trump's opinion, people who had been there forever, this kind of like, simply put, insider, outsider message. And that resonated with a lot of Americans around the country who felt, you know, overlooked or unseen by the people in Washington. And I think what's happening now is really interesting because we're seeing people with very different ideological, you know, mindsets kind of use a similar message of saying the current people in the swamp are not working. Well, I mean, they're not saying drain the swamp. But you know what I'm trying to
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Miles Parks
say, they might, it's not, it's a long campaign.
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Elena Moore
Right. That's true. We'll see. But, you know, Trump ran on that message and I think think it's so interesting because he's now, you know, time flies and it's been over a decade of him being a national figure in political life. And so I think even though we still see him talk about himself as, you know, a political outsider, in some respects, he's very much not. This is his Republican Party. This is his government. And so I think that's been a very interesting thing to watch candidates like Zoran Mamdani or some of these Democratic socialist candidates or just generally progressive challengers across the country run on a similar message of I'm not from the political system that I don't think is working for you, the voter.
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Miles Parks
It makes me think about the meeting, the famous meeting between Zohra Mohamdani when he came to the White House and how Trump seemed to almost admire the way he was connecting with people, right, Franco?
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Franco Ordonez
Oh, yeah. I mean, I definitely think Trump was showing a lot of respect for Donnie, and I think he kind of surprised a lot of Republicans by how much respect that he showed Mandani. And Mandani was also pretty deft at how he dealt with Trump at that meeting. I will never forget on the campaign trail covering Trump and talking with voters and one voter particularly, I can see it very clear in my mind saying, what you guys don't understand is that Trump is not a politician. That is what makes him so different. And I just feel the same thing or see the same thing in this message that all these DSA candidates are giving. They're not, you know, they're not coming from the system. They're not, you know, former local legislators or, you know, in some ways just being grabbed and. And put in this spot. And they're just. They're very good communicators, and they got a message that's resonating with everyday people.
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Elena Moore
Well, we should say, you know, some of them are local officials that are moving up. I mean, Zahran Mamdani was in the State assembly of New York, as was Claire Valdez. But then there are people like Darielisa Avila Chevalier who are activists. And you see that in Denver with Melat Kiros, who's an activist, and she's also, you know, if elected in November, gonna be the first Gen Z woman in Congress. So it's fascinating. There are people who are going through, you know, maybe more seen as traditional lines of, you know, of moving up the political system, as did Bernie Sanders, you know, serving in local government before moving to the federal level. And so you're seeing it in varying degrees, is what I'm trying to say. And it kind of goes in line with other mess, whether that's calls for generational change, calls to move the party farther to the left, you know, and then also, you know, anti establishment.
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Miles Parks
Well, that's what I was going to say, Elena. I feel like especially the people who come through, the activists, Elaine, could potentially and are already, we're seeing kind of dealing with the baggage that comes with that in terms of controversial opinions. Some of these candidates are going to have to or have already dealt with kind of things that they have said previously that might be considered fringe.
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Elena Moore
Oh, yeah. I mean, an activist running for office obviously is a good community. Often, obviously a good communicator maybe is good at rallying people, getting a good grassroots movement out there. But then they have to work with politicians. And how do you square that? You know, that change with your supporters who know you as the outsider? Because at every point, you know, even someone like Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, who was an activist, organizer, bartender, she has to work in that system, too. And we've seen her kind of juggle that and face blowback at times from the Democratic socialists of America, from her supporters, when she has had to cut deals, when she has had to take votes that require a more nuanced perspective than maybe what she would have run on as an original candidate back in 2018. And so I think we should expect to see similar conversations when some of if some of these candidates that won their primaries head to Washington next year.
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Miles Parks
I mean, thinking about this line of attack, Franco, you mentioned this a little bit, but this does have a long history, obviously, in American politics, this idea of calling people communists. I mean, Harris was accused of being a communist by Trump. But then going back decades and decades before that, I can remember Obama facing some of the same accusations, but then going back all the way back to the 1950s. I'm curious about just how this looks different or how this compares to all these different, other different eras of the same criticism.
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Franco Ordonez
Yeah, definitely an attack line for a long, long time. And true, Obama was called communist. I would say it's different, though, because while Obama was called a communist, it wasn't from his political opponents, at least not directly. Like John McCain, the former senator did not call Obama a communist. Now, some of his supporters did, some of the right wing media did, but not the candidate themselves. So I think there is a big difference with Trump because Trump is the one who is pushing this. He's using the bully pulpit of being the presidential candidate and now using the bully pulpit of being the president and sending this message.
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Miles Parks
Well, the other awkward part of this is we've talked about this in previous podcasts when we talk about President Trump's economic policies is that he's actually taken some positions. I'm thinking about specifically the ownership stakes in intel and US Steel, private companies taking government shares of those companies that by the traditional definition of communism, seem to be moving America in that direction. I don't know. Do you see that sort of contradiction at all?
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Franco Ordonez
There are a lot of questions about the irony of this administration's kind of accusations about communist influence on Democrats. When those things are happening, I will say that I did ask the White House about this, and they call these kind of comparisons idiotic. And they say that the administration has never nationalized a company or industry But House Republican Thomas Massie pointed out that there was irony in this administration criticizing Democrats while they were acquiring stakes in major industries. You pointed out intel, also the golden share of U.S. steel. So these are significant issues, things that are happening that people are noticing, thinking about the midterms.
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Miles Parks
I'm curious from both of your perspectives, how this accusation lands with voters. Do you have any sense or anyone you talk to have any sense on whether this is an effective attack line for Republicans to take against Democrats?
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Franco Ordonez
I mean, I think we're gonna find out. I mean, I think certainly the Trump team thinks that it's effective with its base and that it's worked out for them in the past, or at least it hasn't hurt them. Obviously, Trump's been elected, but it also doesn't seem like Elena was just saying that the DSA candidates are very worried about it. They're very open and not running away with it. I was actually talking with Raymond Robertson of Texas A and M University's Bush School of Government and Public Service. He told me that while this kind of anti communism label still carries weight with, with older voters, he said it's not so much in the mindset of younger Americans. I think the younger generations don't have that context because, you know, mainly they only really remember the first Trump administration and maybe the Obama administration, and they don't remember the end of the Cold War. I mean, that is ancient history. So ancient history. So I do think he and Elena
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Miles Parks
are both like, yeah, totally. No, I can't believe people don't remember the end of the.
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Elena Moore
They don't remember the.
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NPR Host
That.
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Elena Moore
How could.
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Miles Parks
So crazy.
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Franco Ordonez
You know, I am curious, though. I mean, like, again, I think it might work with the base, but that doesn't mean it's going to resonate with swing voters in Maine and Michigan or North Carolina. So I'll be at least be very, very curious to see if kind of some of the Republicans and running in those kind of states actually pick this up.
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Elena Moore
Yeah, I mean, look, there's a middle here that people are going to have to find. And I feel like Democratic strategists I talk to who do lean maybe more left or, or somewhere in the center or somewhere in between those two things all say they know that the winning message here is on affordability and validating Americans concerns who didn't feel that former President Biden did don't feel like President Trump is now. And so, like, how that message is communicated, I think is where we're going to see a variation. And like, I would be pretty surprised if, like, we see the same sort of exact talking points that, that Zoran Mamdani is saying in a place like, you know, rural Maine. And so I think we're going to have to see, yeah. How that message looks different. But I do think that the economic affordability concern is the through line. It's the thing that, like, the party can potentially coalesce around. And I will just say, I mean, this conversation keeps going back to a generational conversation because that's the broader conversation both parties are having right now. On the right, Trump is term limited. The party is already having to think about what the future looks like without him as president and what the party stands for and what younger rising leaders are going to step up and what that message will be. On the left, the Democratic Party has been dogged by questions of age and seniority and how far that gets you. And I think that, like, yeah, there is a really interesting economic generational conversation happening because by 2028, more than half of the US electorate will be made up of Gen Z and millennial voters, people who do not remember the Cold War but have grown up in where they only know political and economic instability. And so there's all these huge questions, you know, circulating in, in so many of these races right now. But to your point, Franco, how they resonate in more moderate, more swing places, I'm going to be really curious about Maine, Michigan, those Senate races, places that are more purple. How does that economic message resonate? And does it overshadow any sort of of attack messaging from the right painting this as more extreme?
- [25:07]
Miles Parks
All right. Well, we can leave it there for today. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.
- [25:11]
Elena Moore
I'm Elena Moore. I cover politics.
- [25:12]
Franco Ordonez
And I'm Franco Ordonez. I cover the White House.
- [25:15]
Miles Parks
And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.
- [25:26]
NPR Host
Every story from shortwave NPR Science podcast starts with a question like, why do we have nightmares? How does AI affect my energy? Bill? At npr, we are here for your right to be curious about the world around you. Follow Short Wave wherever you get your podcasts, because the more you ask, the more interesting the world gets.
- [25:51]
Franco Ordonez
Hi, it's me, Peter Sagal, host of Wait, Wait, don't tell me. It's summer. And if you want to turn your pool party into a nerd fest, check
- [25:57]
Elena Moore
out our news quiz.
- [25:58]
Franco Ordonez
We got comedians, we got celebrities, we got games to help you laugh about the week's news. Yeah, that news. It'll be just like we're all hanging out at your backyard barbecue. Listen every week to Wait, wait, don't tell me. On the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.