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Chris
Hi, this is Chris. I'm here in the foothills of the Chilean Andes at the site of the Vera C. Rubin Observatory, first observatory to be run by the United States named after a female astronomer. I'm looking up at a beautiful Milky Way right now. And for those of us who normally live in the northern hemisphere, Mr. Orion is upside down and I can see the Large Magellanic and Small Magellanic Clouds above me. It's an amazing view. Well, it's about 3:30 in the morning here in Chile, but this podcast was.
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Asma Khalid
Recorded at 12:49pm Eastern Time on Thursday, January 9th of 2025.
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Chris
Things may have changed since the time you hear it. Okay, let's all enjoy the skies and enjoy the show.
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Domenico Montanaro
It's amazing. We have the most well traveled listeners.
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Asma Khalid
Hey there. It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House.
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Domenico Montanaro
I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.
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Mara Liasson
And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.
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Asma Khalid
Earlier today here In Washington, the 39th president of the United States, Jimmy Carter, was honored at the National Cathedral. His funeral service brought together all living American presidents, past, current and incoming, to pay their respects. And Carter's longtime friend, President Biden, delivered a eulogy.
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Chris
Jimmy Carter's friendship taught me and through his life taught me the strength of character is more than title or the power we hold. It's the strength to understand that everyone should be treated with dignity, respect, that everyone, and I mean everyone, deserves an even shot.
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Asma Khalid
In listening to Biden's remarks, I was struck by the similarities between these two one term presidents, their focus on faith, on character. Mara, what did you hear in Biden's eulogy?
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Mara Liasson
Well, I heard that he does in a way identify with Jimmy Carter. They both were undone by inflation in terms of Biden's presidency stagflation in terms of Carter's and also foreign events, the hostage crisis for Jimmy Carter. You could argue that the chaos in UKRA and the Middle east contributed to Biden's low popularity. But he also seemed to be giving a message without mentioning Donald Trump's name, talking about character, character, character. He also said that Carter lived a life that made real the ideals of his faith and the principles of the nation. And that's clearly how Joe Biden sees.
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Domenico Montanaro
Himself you know, Joe Biden has obviously a long pre presidency, you know, being a senator for as long as he was being vice president to Barack Obama. And now his presidency is sort of the capstone of his career. But he's gonna be judged on a legacy based on all of it. Right. And I'm sure he would have liked to have been reelected. Obviously presidents who are seen as being reelected have more political power and legacy. Of course, he didn't wind up even getting to the ballot in November. But Jimmy Carter had a tremendous post presidency, sort of an inversion of the two, where he was really able to take what was seen as then a fail presidency because of the politics of the moment and rewrite the legacy that he had after that. Joe Biden doesn't have that luxury, right? He doesn't have that time, doesn't have that luxury to be able to do that. And frankly no president, even the younger ones like Bill Clinton or Barack Obama, none of them have done quite what Jimmy Carter did in his post presidency. I was struck by Joe Biden, who is a very religious person himself. He wanted to make sure that he made clear to young people to study the power of Jimmy Carter's example. And I was struck by that because you'll often hear very religious Christians will say that there's no perfect person, the only perfect person was Jesus Christ, and that you should follow the model of Jesus Christ to the best of your ability. And Joe Biden instead is also saying, look at Jimmy Carter emulate that life. There's probably no higher praise that a religious person could give someone else.
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Asma Khalid
Domenico, I am curious how you would describe the personal relationship between Biden and Carter. They knew each other for decades. Biden was a young senator in Congress when Carter was elected. How did the two men get along?
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Domenico Montanaro
Well, they had a friendly relationship, obviously. I mean, Joe Biden went into some detail about his 2021 visit to Plains, Georgia, where it was just he and Jill Biden, Rosalynn and Jimmy sitting the four of them in Jimmy Carter's very humble home. And that they talked and that they'd known each other for decades. I mean, he said that he first to endorse his candidacy in 1974, and he said he did so because of character. And then he underlined that three times to say character. Okay, get it? Character. Understand what I'm saying if you haven't heard me. Character is important because I know Joe Biden thinks that the country is at an inflection point when it comes to what kind of leaders that the country is electing who they think should be in charge. And people like Biden wanna say that character still matters.
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Asma Khalid
One thing that stood out to me today was that two of the eulogies given were not delivered by the people who wrote them. Instead, they were delivered by their sons. And that is that we heard from former President Gerald Ford's son. We also heard from Walter Mondale's son. And Walter Mondale was, of course, Carter's vice president. These eulogies were written by their fathers, but they are no longer alive. And, you know, this obviously speaks to Carter's age. He lived to be 100 years old. He had the longest post presidency life we've seen. I want to hear from you, Mara. Was there something, something you heard from these eulogies that really stood out to you?
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Domenico Montanaro
Yes.
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Mara Liasson
Stephen Ford read his father Gerald Ford's eulogy. And what was so interesting about it is we have seen ex presidents become friends. We saw Bill Clinton and George H.W. bush do a whole lot of humanitarian trips to Haiti and other places. But what Stephen Ford talked about was how his father became good friends with the man who defeated him. These aren't just two random ex presidents. Jimmy Carter defeated Gerald Ford, and he talked about how they flew to the Middle east and on the way back they really became friends. And he talked about a friendship that transcends politics. And that is something that I think you could never imagine in the modern era where partisanship is put aside and the two presidents can actually become friends.
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Domenico Montanaro
Certainly in the last 10 years, I would say that's true because Barack Obama and George W. Bush seem to get along fairly well, have a fairly warm relationship, despite the fact that Barack Obama ran literally against George W. Bush and everything that he stands for. We've seen those kind of funny pictures of Michelle Obama and George W. Bush kind of getting along at some of these kinds of events. I was struck, though, by Stephen Ford telling the children of Jimmy Carter, God did a good thing when he made your dad. I mean, can you imagine, like your rival's son saying that about you after you were dead to your family? Like that is like. There's just so much heart and emotion in that. And I don't know how many other things could be more telling of a life well lived.
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Asma Khalid
I also want to talk about the eulogy that was delivered by Jimmy Carter's grandson, Jason Carter, because so often former presidents are remembered by their public Personas. And, you know, Jimmy Carter was a man, as many people have noted, who lived in his hometown of Plains, Georgia, taught Sunday school well into his 90s and when Jason Carter spoke today, we got a glimpse into what his private life was like.
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Chris
Maybe this is unbelievable to you, but in my 49 years, I never perceived a difference between his public face and his private one. He was the same person no matter who he was with or where he was. And for me, that's the definition of integrity.
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Domenico Montanaro
That's, I mean, just so touching to hear someone say like that. That is the definition of integrity. Right. Humility, decency, respect for the power of regular people. Jason Carter talked about his grandfather. He made some funny stories, too, which I think is a important thing in a eulogy when you're remembering somebody to sort of lighten up the crowd a little bit, to say that he remembers when his grandfather got a phone for the first time. Cell phone. They have a phone with a cord on the wall, which, you know, I had a phone on the wall. You know, everyone did, right? If you're of a certain age once upon a time. But he said his grandfather got a cell phone. He called him and he said, hey, what's happening? And he's like, oh, who's this? He's like, it's your grandson, Jason. He's like, you called me. And he's like, I didn't call you. I'm trying to take. But I also thought it was interesting, him talking about integrity and saying that Jimmy Carter served four years in the governor's mansion, four years in the White House, and the other 92 were in Plains, Georgia with Rosie.
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Mara Liasson
Yeah, that was amazing.
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Domenico Montanaro
And I thought that that just summed up the simplicity, humility and decency that so many people talked about of Jimmy.
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Mara Liasson
Carter in the same house that they built in 1961, in the same ranch house. And then he talked about seeing Ziploc bags hung up to dry in their kitchen. They were reusing Ziploc bags. That speaks. Not just that, the frugality and the kind of modesty of the way they lived, but it's something that I think is extremely rare except for among certain people's grandparents.
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Asma Khalid
All right. Well, lots more to talk about, but let's take a quick break and we'll be back in a moment.
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Mara Liasson
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Domenico Montanaro
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Domenico Montanaro
Wait, wait, don't tell me. Fresh air up first, NPR News. Now Planet Money TED Radio Hour throughline the NPR Politics podcast Code Switch embedded books we love Wild Card are just some of the podcasts you can enjoy. Sponsor free with NPR. Get all sorts of perks across more than 20 podcasts with the bundle option. Learn more at plus.NPR.org and we're back.
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Asma Khalid
And Domenico, in addition to President Biden, there were two former presidents there who are Democratic, also in attendance. And and I wanna get a sense from you of how the Democratic Party broadly has changed since Carter was in office.
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Domenico Montanaro
Yeah. And I would even go back a little further to somebody like lbj, Lyndon Baines Johnson being able to win election also help John F. Kennedy win election in 1960 because he was a Southern white Democrat. And then you have Jimmy Carter come along and a Southern white Democrat's able to win. Bill Clinton then kind of follows suit and a Southern white Democrat wins. And I think there was a theory for a long time in that period that for Democrats to win, they needed to have that kind of person to represent a part of the country that they're not traditionally very strong in. But that changed with Barack Obama's election. And Joe Biden is also not of that culture either. And for as much as Joe Biden, people can look to the past about his life and legacy, he does represent something different in where the Democratic Party has come from and where it's heading, because it's certainly the politics of the Democratic Party. Democratic Party look more like what Jimmy Carter wanted in 1976-1980 than it did today. But where those candidates are coming from and what their background, beliefs, values, religion are certainly has changed quite a bit.
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Asma Khalid
And mar, I want to go back to something you touched on earlier, and that is this idea that Carter's presidency was widely considered a failure at the time. Today we heard from Stuart Eisenstadt, who worked in the Carter administration, and he vocally strongly defended Carter's legacy and his presidency.
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Chris
As we lay our 39th president to rest, it's time to redeem his presidency and also lay to rest the myth that his greatest achievements came only as a former president. The test of American presidents is not the number of years they serve, but the duration of their accomplishments.
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Mara Liasson
Stu Eizenstot came to this service with a very specific mission, which is to rehabilitate Carter's record and legacy. When he was in office, everybody knows he was a fabulous post president, but Stu Eisenstadt talked about what he did as president. And most presidents that aren't reelected are considered less than successes. But he went through all the things that Carter did. He started the Energy Department and the Education Department. He made peace between Egypt and Israel. He said he was the greatest environmental president since Teddy Roosevelt. He put 80 million acres in Alaska into the National Park System. He said that it was underappreciated at the time, but he was the great deregulator of government. He also tamed inflation stagflation by appointing Paul Volcker to the Federal Reserve at great political detriment to himself and his political future. So I think that there is an effort to change the historic evaluation of the Carter legacy.
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Domenico Montanaro
You know, he didn't handle the politics of the time very well. I think that's been a big part of why so many people have said that he had a failed presidency because inflation was as high as it was. He had this crisis with the Iran hostage crisis where he didn't get them out until his last day in office. And, you know, that really obviously painted a darker picture of his presidency than maybe the light now is casting on it currently. And I will say that part of that we were then at a time of great volatility in a way that we are sort of now as well, because he was really at this hinge of cultural change. I mean, we were moving away from this 1950s style values and had moved into this sort of rock and roll, 1960s and 70s culture, which Jimmy Carter had great affinity for, and wanted to move the country in a direction that was more progressive, that cared more about the poor, that cared about income inequality, that cared about climate. A thing that was not on the tips of people's tongues when they're standing in gas lines because they can't get gas for their cars. And the politics of the moment often take over and supersede what winds up happening long term. But as the apertures widened on the Carter presidency, it certainly has been cast in a different light.
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Mara Liasson
And don't forget that he won his election in a reaction against the cynicism and corruption and violence of the years before. We'd had the assassinations of the Kennedy brothers and Martin Luther King, Nixon and Watergate, and then we had Vietnam. So he was going to be the antidote to that. He ran saying, I'll never tell you a lie. And most historians who've looked at his record haven't really found any big lies that he told. So he was a populist outsider who was running as the antidote to a very dispiriting period in American history.
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Asma Khalid
Before we wrap up today's show, I just want to ask you both for your final thoughts.
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Mara Liasson
What really struck me was the last speaker in the eulogies, Andrew Young, who's 92 years old, former civil rights leader, UN ambassador, mayor of Atlanta, incredible voice, speaking without notes. But he said that Jimmy Carter was something of a miracle. And then he went on to tell this incredible story about the civil rights movement in the south, which was dangerous and violent. And he talked about he was nervous driving through Plains Georgia. Sumter county was one of the most dangerous places for a black person to be. And he talked about the sheriff there and how when he met Jimmy Carter, he mentioned the sheriff's name, Fred Chappell, and Martin Luther King had called him the meanest man in the world. And Carter said famously, oh, yes, he's one of my good friends. And Young said, that's not really what I wanted to hear. But then he told the story about Jimmy Carter was a minority. That's what he said, because Sumter county was 75% black. And he said that he identified with minorities. He made friends with the majority in his hometown. And then when he went to the Naval Academy, he asked for his roommate to be the first black midshipman because he felt that his experience as a minority in Sumter county could help this young black midshipman make the adjustments that were necessary.
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Domenico Montanaro
You know, it was, I thought, a heartfelt ceremony overall. Clearly, the Carters, Jimmy Carter himself, Rosalynn Carter picked out all of the details of what we saw and heard during this ceremony. Certainly was very personal. And I was struck by Walter Mondale's son talking about how Jimmy Carter and Jimmy Carter has said this before, that he felt that his presidency, that he told the truth, he upheld the law and he kept the peace. And when Stu Eisenstadt talked, I thought it was notable and probably fair where he said he may not be a candidate for Mount Rushmore, but he belongs in the foothills.
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Mara Liasson
Yeah, that was really great.
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Asma Khalid
Well, on that note, let's leave it there for today. I really appreciate this conversation. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House.
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Domenico Montanaro
I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent.
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Mara Liasson
And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.
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Asma Khalid
And thank you all, as always, for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.
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