Miles Parks (2:05)

I mean, what about the future of government in Gaza and specifically what happens to the displaced people or 2 million people who live there? And I know Trump had floated this idea of redeveloping it. What does that look like?

Frank Ordonez (2:16)

Yeah, I mean, Trump is actually gonna have a very big hand in the future if this were to go through. This plan calls for, you know, deploying an international security force and installing a, quote, board of peace. This board would be led by Trump as well as former British Prime Minister Ton Blair. And they would kind of oversee Gaza's administration and reconstruction. And it would also include kind of this transitional apolitical Palestinian Committee, again supervised by the Board of Peace. And the future of that board is very, very uncertain. And again, it's just one of the many, many examples that is going to raise some skepticism because Hamas would not have anything to do with it.

Miles Parks (3:03)

Well, that's what I was going to ask you, Greg. I mean, am I right in thinking that this plan sounds very Israel friendly? I mean, even I know there was a detail that Israel gets to keep troops on the ground in Gaza.

Greg Myhre (3:14)

Yeah, Myles, you're absolutely right. I mean, Netanyahu has said since the beginning of the war that Hamas would be totally destroyed. And very unlike the previous conflicts. When things would heat up in Gaza on a smaller scale, Israel would deliver a blow, but Hamas would stay in power. Israel would call it mowing the grass. Now, the previous negotiations during these last two years of war have included some things for both sides, more things Israel wanted than the Palestinians. But there were some give and take there. It was a negotiation. This plan is overwhelmingly in line with Israel's goals, offers almost nothing to the Palestinians. And it raises the question, you know, what if Hamas rejects this? Is this sort of a cover for Netanyahu and Israel to continue the war? Trump did address this. Hear what he said on Monday.

Donald Trump (4:09)

If Hamas rejects the deal, which is always possible, they're the only one left. Everyone else has accepted it, but I have a feeling that we're going to have a positive answer. But if not, as you know, Bibi, you'd have more full backing to do what you would have to do.

Greg Myhre (4:27)

So there's Trump standing up in front of the world, basically giving Netanyahu a free hand. And this comes at a time when an Israeli military operation in Gaza City, the main city in the territory, is already underway. And Netanyahu responded as well.

Benjamin Netanyahu (4:43)

But if Hamas rejects your plan, Mr. President, or if they supposedly accept it and then basically do everything to counter it, then Israel will finish the job by itself. This can be done the easy way or it can be done the hard way, but it will be done.

Miles Parks (5:07)

Well, then I feel like there is this natural question of why would Hamas agree to such a deal if there is so little in this plan that advantages them?

Greg Myhre (5:15)

Yeah, Myles, this would effectively be a surrender or a capitulation by Hamas. As Franco noted, Hamas would have to give up its one card that it can play, which is giving up the hostages, both those that are alive and those that are dead. Give up its weapons, allow Israeli troops to remain in Gaza. Hamas was formed almost 40 years ago. They've ruled Gaza since 2007, they're a calling card. They have always portrayed themselves as the leader of the Palestinian resistance to Israel. And they would be publicly giving up on this role. And it would be a huge admission of failure that the attack they launched two years ago has come to this point and no clear indication if the group does accept that. Again, a big if, but not clear what they would do next or how they would be seen or treated by Palestinians.

Miles Parks (6:06)

Do we have any sense of the timeline at this point on when we expect Hamas to have an answer on this?

Frank Ordonez (6:12)

Trump was asked about that earlier today when he was on his way to speak to some military generals, and he said that they were going to give Hamas three or four days. Now, could there be more time than that? Let's see. Greg has talked about before that we can anticipate Hamas will respond and maybe have their own input to add. But it does seem clear that Trump is expecting an answer to pretty soon.

Greg Myhre (6:35)

Hamas seems to be indicating that they're going to give an answer on Wednesday. They said they just got the plan. They were not direct participants in it. Hamas says they received the plan, they're studying it, and they're expecting to provide an answer on Wednesday. Now, in the past, there has been back and forth, but this is being presented as a plan, not a negotiation. Take it or leave it.

Miles Parks (6:58)

Is there any sense of what the rest of the world feels about this plan? You know, other countries in the region and countries in Europe, for instance, I.

Frank Ordonez (7:04)

Mean, it's gotten a lot of support, I mean, definitely from Europe, including from countries that had called for recognition of a Palestinian state. And yes, also across the Middle East, a number of countries, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, all welcomed the plan. And actually in a statement called it sincere. They pointed to the point that Palestinians would not be displaced. And that's a significant deal because we'll remember in earlier comments by Trump, you know, he talked about relocating Palestinians, creating a Gaza Riviera. Well, this plan actually encourages Palestinians to stay and says they want to make a better future. I think the question with kind of some of that support from the region as well as from the European leaders who are calling for a Palestinian state, there is question about whether it's kind of like there's no real other option at this point.

Greg Myhre (8:05)

And we may have just reached that point, which you do hit in wars where one side feels it just go on. And these may be things that Hamas has rejected through this war and for many years in the past, but have reached a point where they feel they have no choice and may have to accept things that they have always rejected in the past.

Miles Parks (8:24)

All right. Well, let's take a quick break, but I want to get more into America's involvement in the future of Gaza right after this.

Sources and Methods Narrator (8:31)

Military commanders, intelligence officials, diplomatic power players, they know things you may not about where the world is headed. And we will pull back the curtain on what they're thinking on sources and NPR's new national security podcast. Our team will help you understand America's shifting role in the world. Listen to Sources and Methods from npr. Sources and Methods, the crown jewels of the intelligence community, shorthand for how do we know what's real? Who told us? If you have those answers, you're on the inside and NPR wants to bring you there. From the Pentagon to the State Department to spy agencies, listen to understand what's really happening and what it means for you. Sources and Methods, the new national security podcast from NPR.

Up First Narrator (9:18)

The Trump administration has moved fast to change U.S. policy, but much of the country is still trying to catch up.

Miles Parks (9:25)

Business likes a stable environment, so uncertainty.

Frank Ordonez (9:29)

Does cause a little bit of pain.

Up First Narrator (9:31)

On the Sunday Story from Up First, a road trip across the country to hear how Trump's policies are impacting everyday Americans. Listen now to the Sunday story on the up first podcast from npr.

Miles Parks (9:44)

And we're back. And we've been talking about the Gaza peace deal that President Trump announced yesterday and Franco. I want to dig a little bit more into the politics here for Trump because he is already celebrating this as a win, even though, as we know, with everything in this part of the world, I feel like this is just the beginning of a very long process.

Frank Ordonez (10:00)

Yeah, I mean, for sure. I mean, Trump likes big announcements. He likes to claim victory, declare victory. And I think this is one of those cases where, you know, he's declaring victory and, you know, the results, the outcome is still very uncertain. And there are countless cases like this where President Trump has announced big agreements, most recently on tariffs and particularly some of the other conflicts that President Trump claims to have solved and resolved. And there's a lot of uncertainty about where those are going to go. And again, without Hamas playing a role, I mean, there's just so much skepticism about this role. But Trump is about the headlines. You know, he's got the foreign leader, Bibi Netanyahu in the White House, you know, giving him such praise, such flowery language. So this is definitely a victory lap for Trump. In Trump's perspective, he may be seeing another victory lap later on if this thing is resolved and if it isn't resolved, he still gets the victory lap. And he says, hey, I gave it my best effort.

Miles Parks (11:09)

One of the things that I don't fully understand, Greg, here is this plan involves a pretty in the weeds involvement from the US Government in the future of Gaza, specifically from President Trump being a part of this potential future governing body. Yet on the campaign trail last year, I feel like he was pretty adamant that his view of America was a more isolationist view, that he didn't want to get America involved in this sort of nation building that the country has been involved in in the past. How do you square those things?

Greg Myhre (11:40)

Right. Well, it's just a contradiction. I don't know that you can square it. We've seen Trump get involved in a number of foreign conflicts, whether it was bombing Iran, whether it was a brief war against the Houthis in Yemen, bombing boats from Venezuela. The difference though is those events were kind of things that were very self contained. Trump could do them, start them, stop them. It didn't require any long term commitment. This is different. If you get involved in the Middle east and get sucked in, it is a long term effort and no US President has been successful. You can literally go back to Harry Truman, who recognized the state of Israel and the first war between Israelis and Palestinians. Every single president since the late 1940s has been involved in this in some way. Trump's approach, I would say, is somewhat different. The past couple decades or even 30 years, we've been talking about a two state solution, a state for the Palestinians, and that would lead to security and the elimination of a threat to Israel. Trump has taken a very different approach. He's been very much supportive of Israel and what it wants on numerous occasions. And he also likes to talk about doing deals with the wealthy Arab countries in the region, says very little about the Palestinians, or talks about statehood or other things that they want or need. And then just, just to pull that together, this plan of his says very, very little. There's one very vague reference here about a possibility of a Palestinian state. And it just says if this progress goes well, the conditions may finally be in place for a credible pathway to Palestinian self determination and statehood. But it seems that that was almost thrown in as boilerplate and there's just nothing that really sounds substantive, certainly to Palestinian ears.

Frank Ordonez (13:34)

You know, I'll say that this approach that Trump has had in the Middle east overseas has created somewhat of a rift within the Republican Party, particularly when it comes to the conflict in Gaza with Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has raised a lot of concerns. She's not the only one who have made cases that this is kind of against the America first ethos of focusing on domestic issues first. And now you have a plan, a 20 point plan that puts Trump as the chair of the Board of Peace, leading the administration reconstruction of a new Gaza. I mean, Trump promised to end the conflict in Gaza as well as in Ukraine. So this is not entirely out of his purview. I think what the administration would tell you is that his approach to foreign policy, though, is very different than other presidents in that these issues are more focused on US Interests or Trump's perspective of what US Interests are and less focused on what is in the best interest of, say, Europe. This is more interest on US Interests and Israel, as Greg was just pointing out, Trump and Israel and the Republican Party in Israel have been kind of going in lockstep for quite a while.

Miles Parks (14:50)

Well, I do think it's interesting to zero in specifically on Israel's stance here as we come up on two years of the Hamas attack in Israel. I guess how has Israel's posture changed in those two years, Greg?

Greg Myhre (15:02)

Yeah, we've seen this dramatic reversal from what happened on October 7th when Hamas attacked Israel's Von Tank military looked very vulnerable, unprepared. Israel suffered its biggest blow in decades, perhaps even in its history, you could argue. Since that day, Israel has had a remarkable string of military and national security successes, decimating Hamas in Gaza, Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Iranian leadership and its nuclear program. And although they weren't directly involved, the dictator Bashar al Assad was kicked out of Syria. So all of these threats were there two years ago have either been eliminated or greatly reduced. If you're just looking at through the lens of national security, tremendous success for Israel. Then of course you look at its international standing, which has been badly tarnished, its isolation, which has increased dramatically, its support, which now is essentially the United States in terms of big powers. It still has relations with other countries, but they're in various tenuous, difficult position. So there's been this real split in terms of military victories and reputational damage. And these are both things that Israel is going to have to carry with it as we go forward.

Miles Parks (16:23)

All right. Well, we can leave it there for today. We are going to keep watching what happens with the steel in the coming days. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.

Frank Ordonez (16:30)

I'm Frank Ordonez. I cover the White House.

Greg Myhre (16:32)

I'm Greg Myria, cover national security.

Miles Parks (16:34)

And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.

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