A (3:13)

That's fantastic. So may I ask, when you reflect on your years in law, what patterns of fear or self protection stand out most vividly now?

B (3:22)

And are you referring like patterns of fear and self protection with the clients that I was working with or within myself?

A (3:30)

Both.

B (3:33)

So I guess at the time, you know, for myself, a lot of it was, I mean, I went into law with good intentions. I, you know, at the time I thought I was interested in it and I thought I could help people. So I, you know, I went into it with good intentions, but I quickly realized that it just wasn't for me. Started off working at the Department of Child Services as a trial attorney doing placements for children who had experienced abuse and neglect. Again, trying to do the right thing. And it also, prior to that, actually worked for an entertainment agency because I was interested in, you know, literary and movies and other sorts of entertainment, which were very wide spectrums. But after going through those and then working at a private law firm firm realized this is not for me. And so the pattern of fear that came up for me was like, oh, what do I do now? Like, I've just invested, you know, three years of my education, post post degree education into law school. I'd spent four years as a lawyer and I knew that it wasn't for me. And so, and then at that time too, I didn't know that I wanted to go into psychology. So I felt totally the sense of fear and also just sort of like my ego and more so like my male ego was like, okay, you know, this is my identity and if I lose this, who am I? You know, what am I, what am I going to do? How am I going to, you know, financially provide for myself psychologically? You know, hearing comments like, oh, you know, you're a lawyer, you went to law school, and you know, what's wrong with you? Why aren't you happy with this? So those are some of my own kind of like, I guess you would call them my ego fears, but they're also very human fears too, that I think most people would have. And as far as just like the clients that I was working with, I was primarily working in family law. And so these are people that were going through pretty difficult challenges in their life, like divorce, child custody, and sometimes parenting time, or even like abused and neglect children. So just some of the very difficult things that you would experience in life. And you know, it really struck me on a very deep level just how much some people really were afraid to lose their family, afraid to not provide for their family, afraid for their children, afraid not to see their family. And it really struck me one particular client was in a custody dispute. And, you know, this guy was pretty, pretty rough life and, and out of prison. And you know, he just came to me trying to get custody of his daughter and he just broke down in tears, just so afraid that he wasn't ever going to see his daughter again. And it just struck me, just the humanity. And I just kind of like just threw everything I knew about law out the window. And I just listened to him and he just, you know, broke down in tears and I just tried to just listen to him. And he just, you know, turned to me and said, you know, thank you for just listening to me. And you know, that actually really meant a lot to me. But you could again just see that the, the fear that he had that he wasn't going to see his daughter and you know, just some of the other struggles and traumas that these families were going through just to survive.

A (7:12)

There's a lot to unpack there.

B (7:14)

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to go over the place.

A (7:16)

No, that's okay. I, I appreciate your, your range. Tell me, circling back to the point regarding male ego, how challenging did you find it amongst your peer group to back down from what you had originally committed to?

B (7:31)

Yeah, I mean, that was very difficult. I mean, just from a very practical standpoint, I was a little, I was concerned about my money. I mean, there was a time that I was out of work, like I didn't have a job and so I didn't have money coming in for a pretty significant amount of time. So, you know, that was difficult. And then, you know, hearing comments from people like, you know, what's wrong with you? You went to law school. I'd gone to a good undergrad too. And, you know, what do you want to do with your life? You know, you know, what's, what's wrong with you? So that, you know, that really made me kind of question myself. And you know, prior to that, I had been, and still am, very success oriented. But when that part of my identity was go And I didn't have a work or money coming in. It was a very big blow to my ego. But it also, when things like that happen, they have the potential to really open you up to your spiritual self or your intuition or just your deeper callings. And so it was really a time for me for soul searching and just sort of asking myself, you know, not so much, you know, what do I want to do, but what type of person do I want to be? What type of impact can I really make in other people's lives? You know, what are my most important values? And so really started to try to live those on a daily life, day to day basis, like looking for ways to serve and inspire other people without having work. And so I did a lot of volunteer work. I did some free motivational speaking, then did some like, pro bono coaching. And that really got me interested in wanting to work with people on a deeper level. So it was simultaneously very like kind of terrifying and almost embarrassing, but also really on a deeper level, like, it was exactly what my, I think soul or spirit or intuition was, was guiding me towards to like this deeper calling to give me greater fulfillment in life.

A (9:42)

Absolutely. You know, the path to enlightenment is pretty circuitous.

B (9:47)

Yeah.

A (9:47)

At what point did you personally realize that understanding rules wasn't the same as understanding people?

B (9:57)

Could you go a little bit more? What, what exactly do you mean by that when you say.

A (10:00)

Well, for instance, you were talking about how in consulting with your client, you decided to throw law the window. So obviously you wanted to understand him as a person rather than as a client. Clearly you're setting aside the rules of eng management, if we can use that phrase, and you're deciding to pick up a different tack in managing him not only as a client, but as a human. So at what point in your journey did you decide that your understanding of people was more significant and perhaps more valuable than understanding the rules that you had to govern yourself when interacting with them?

B (10:34)

Yeah. So, I mean, again, I think this is sort of came down to, you know, on a, on a more of a surface level, it was just very much more consistent with my personality and interests. Like, I wanted to connect more with him on a personal level and wanted to connect with people on a personal level. But then it was just like on a deeper level it was just felt like this, this inner calling or, you know, my intuition is like, wow. Like I feel most alive when I'm connecting with people on a deeper level. You know, when I started just working, I started doing this like pro bono career coaching and really, it was more like life coaching. And I'd go to these non profits, I'd give these motivational talks and I would just offer to meet with people for free to help them find a meaningful career, which was ironically what exactly what I was trying to do at the same time. And so I realized, you know, I feel really, really good about this, like, this is really, really exciting for me. And then I also sought out my own individual psychotherapy, which is also, you know, talk about questioning the male ego. At first I was very resistant to reaching out for that, but then realizing, you know, this is really helping me, you know, it's helping me to, you know, better manage my stress, get more clarity, live a life that's more consistent with my values. And then I was just like, you know, I, I, I, I would not be happy if I was a lawyer, but I'm pretty certain I would be happy if I was working with people on this deeper level.

A (12:11)

So that's where you were deciding that meaning was more valuable than achievement. Stepping away from law, trying to separate yourself from the value associated with the achievements, the successes of a career, and going for the meaning that you were deriving from your experiences with the people you were interacting with. And I commend you for your charitable work to that end. Spiritual Media Blog sits at an unusual intersection of psychology, spirituality and popular culture. What kinds of conversations do you feel mainstream psychology still avoids?

B (12:45)

Yeah, that's a great question. So mainstream psychology typically will avoid direct conversations about spirituality. For example, you know, asking people, you know, what's your intuition, you know, guiding you, you know, what are some of your religious or spiritual beliefs? You know, if a loved one dies, do you believe you can connect with that loved one after they, after their, you know, they. Psychology does not necessarily answer these transpersonal questions. Now that being said, certain psychologists do. Carl Jung did. He's talked about the collective consciousness, he talked about synchronicity. There are some psychologists who specialize in integrating spirituality into psychology. But traditionally, I mean, in my, in my, I got, in my ph, in my PhD courses, which is like a, you know, four or five year program of advanced psychology, we spent one class talking about spirituality and we didn't even go into Carl Jung. It was more about the cultural, about trying to be culturally mindful of people's different religions, spiritual beliefs. And so you, you got one class on spirituality and you know, five years of training. So you're right, it typically does not go into that direction.

A (14:16)

That's a little more sensitivity training than actual research.

B (14:20)

That's Right. Perspective. Yeah.

A (14:22)

What do you think therapists risk losing when they stay exclusively inside clinical frameworks?

B (14:29)

So. Well, number one, you risk not giving clients the space to talk about something that's really important and meaningful to them, which may be their spirituality or their religion. So, I mean, for me as a psychologist, I never push spirituality or religion or God on my, on my clients, but I'll. I might ask them, like, do you have any spiritual beliefs? And that at least gives them the space to talk about that. And from a psychological perspective, for some people, their religious, their religion or their spirituality is an incredible resource and coping skill or sense of purpose or meaning or direction in their life. So I really, I try to create a space that's, like you said, sensitive or open to give them that chance. But if you're a psychologist who avoids that or doesn't bring that up, then you're not going to. Not giving people the space to talk about something that's meaningful. Or at worst, sometimes people will completely invalidate actual spiritual or mystical experiences. And it doesn't happen often, but at times, you know, patients will tell me about, you know, what most people, what, what some people would consider to be spiritual or mystical experiences. You know, whether it's like a prophetic dream or connecting with a loved one who has died or a very strong coincidence or synchronicity. Again, I'm not trying to push that belief set onto them, but I, I'm at least validating that with them saying, you know, you know, there's some people who believe that those spiritual experiences are valid experiences, whereas there might be some mainstream psychologist who might invalidate that, or at worst, see that as a sign, as a mental illness or, or a hallucination or delusion.

A (16:31)

That's a fantastic point. Where do you draw the line when a client's spiritual language carries insight that your diagnostic language can't easily hold?

B (16:39)

That's an excellent question. And this is something that I have tried to wonder myself. So I first and foremost am trying to look at, you know, how is this helping them function? Like, is this providing some meaning or purpose or useful function in this life, or is it a distraction? Or. I mean, I do work with some patients who have schizophrenia. So, you know, it's, it's rare, but it, you know, you wonder like, okay, is this a, is this a hallucination or delusion? But that's, to me, that really hasn't come up that often. So I'm mainly just looking at, you know, how is this helping them function? And really just trying to help Them integrate it into their life and to adding more meaningful meaning or usefulness into their life. I mean, for a lot of people, their spiritual or their religious beliefs or practices, it is a sense of meaning and purpose, or it can be an incredible source of strength or coping skills during difficult times or when they're looking for meaning or direction. So it's. It's really trying to help them find some usefulness for it or just validating that, hey, this might be a legitimate spiritual experience. I mean, it might not be, but it's possible that it is. So what you're experiencing might be valid without trying to push that on them.

A (18:03)

So when a client frames their experience in spiritual terms, what helps you discern insight from, for instance, avoidance?

B (18:10)

Yeah, that's a great question. So again, it's. I mean, some of that's looking at it through, like, my psychological lens. And so, like, if they have, like, you know, depression or anxiety, like, are they using their spiritual or religious practices to avoid dealing with the depression or the anxiety? So, I mean, some people might call this, like, spiritual bypassing, or they're just being, like, overly optimistic about a situation that would be causing most people some experience of grief or sadness. And so if they're truly avoiding either dealing with some painful emotions or they're not trying to, like, deal with the depression or the anxiety, you know, then without trying to invalidate it, you know, again, trying to swing the focus back to, like, you know, well, what are some of your goals that you're trying to get out of this session? You know, how is this helping you or hurting you and dealing with your depression or your anxiety? You know, is this useful for you or is it not useful for you? But, I mean, that is a, A valid, valid concern.

A (19:27)

Conversely, have you noticed moments where honoring that language accelerates the healing rather than confusing it?

B (19:34)

Yeah, absolutely. And again, some of this is very subtle, but it, you know, especially in times of, like, grief or death, just I might simply ask them, like, do you believe in the afterlife? Like, you know, or what do you think your loved one would want? How do you think your loved one would want you to live today? Or, you know, if you're. If your loved one could give you a message or you could give your loved one a message, you know, what would that. That message be? Or sometimes it's even more. I don't want to say simple, but it's just. I guess it is simple, just acknowledging that it's okay for them to trust God. Again, those aren't my words that I put into their mind. But they might just tell me. I might ask them, like, what helps you cope with this? And they might bring up, independently of me saying anything, oh, well, it's, you know, my faith in God. I. I just. I trust that God's helping me out with this. And just. And then just acknowledging, like, you know, that's just. That's an incredible source of strength for a lot of people. Or even in some. Sometimes if people go to aa, you know, talking about how their belief in a higher power can help them, you know, stay sober. And of course, when I say God, I'm, you know, talking about that in more of a spiritual sense, whatever that word means to, to people.

A (21:04)

Yeah, it's the noun, not the name. Lowercase, not uppercase G. I get it.

B (21:09)

Yeah, absolutely.

A (21:10)

So you've worked, obviously, in the entertainment industry, inside Hollywood, inside government systems and private clinical practice. What have those environments revealed to you about the stories we tell ourselves in order to survive our roles?

B (21:24)

So, yeah, I mean, when you talk about surviving our roles, I think, you know, that question, the answers within that question. A lot of times people are very focused on survival and just meeting their most basic needs. Whether that's like, okay, I've got to get this job in order to, you know, meet these certain milestones, make this money, you know, gain some level of prestige or status, have, you know, my child look up to me, and, you know, those are all, you know, it's important to be able to survive and meet those needs. But when that's your sole focus, sometimes you can be off acting out of a place of either fear or ego. Whereas, you know, alternatively, if you're acting out of a place of. Of love or inspiration, or fall following your deeper callings, then when you achieve those milestones or those successes, they become much more meaningful and joyful. They're almost just like these gifts that happen as a result of following your calling. Instead of like, okay, you know, I'm going to get this job, then I'm going to get this house, and when I do that, then I'll be happy. Well, you know, if your happiness is always focused on just survival, you're never going to be happy for that long because then, you know, you're always, always going to be fearful that something can come and take that away from you. But if your happiness is more focused on your following your inner callings, your intuition, then you can connect with that happiness or that sense of direction at. At any moment.

A (23:09)

That's fantastic.

B (23:11)

Yeah.

A (23:12)

Your novel the Bottom Line, explores the male ego in a Formative stage of life. What myths about masculinity do you think are most psychologically costly today?

B (23:24)

Yeah, that's a really good question. So I think, you know, one of the first myths that comes to my mind about the male ego and masculinity is really an inability to deal with emotion in a healthy way. So a lot of times, you know, men are told, like, you know, don't be afraid. Suck it up. You know, be a man. Don't cry. And so they bottle their emotions up and just they sit there and, you know, eventually that can come out as avoidance, depression, isolation, alcohol use, drug. Drug abuse. And then conversely, oftentimes men then, like, don't know how to deal with those emotions. So when they try to express them, then they become overly emotional. It's like, it might come out in this, like, angry outburst or all of a sudden, and it's like for the first time in their life, they. They feel like, this sadness or their depression, and they just isolate themselves, you know, for a whole week or two or longer. And so, you know, instead of getting healthy messages about healthy ways to manage their emotions, they're kind of given these extremes, like, don't, don't. Don't feel any emotion. Or it's like, on the other hand, some men are just like, well, just. Just, you know, let your emotions go without managing them in a healthy way.

A (24:55)

So in your opinion, how would young men learn to distinguish strength from performance earlier in life?

B (25:05)

Could you maybe tell. Talk a little bit more about what you mean by that?

A (25:08)

Yeah. So certainly there's a very clear divide between what society expects from the male ego and what the male ego is logically capable of giving. This establishes certain baselines for behavior, for conduct, for emotional transparency and exposure. Clearly, younger men are growing up in a time and an age where their expectations they probably can't navigate very well. They're having to perform to meet the expectations of their peer groups, and they're also having to learn some method of coping with their interior universe and their exterior universe. How would they distinguish between performance and actual strength? How would they distinguish between the roles society is pressing them into and the things they should be taking to heart as valuable tools for the future.

B (26:01)

Yeah, so this is. I mean, this is challenging, you know, for all men and women of all ages. But, you know, if they can acknowledge that, you know, performance is important. But. But, you know, in my opinion, it's not important as the. The effort or the process or the preparation that you put into it. So if we could put more emphasis on the, you know, the process or your effort rather than the end result, then typically the end result takes care of it itself. And I mean, it's also too. It's like if you are totally just. I mean, if you want to look at it just from a pure performance perspective, you know, if you're solely focused on just the end result, then that amount of pressure can oftentimes decrease the performance. But if you can just say, like, hey, we're just going to focus on the process and try to, you know, learn from it, enjoy it. And oh, by the way, if, like, you're feeling anxious, you know, that's normal. Like, you know, one of the best advice somebody told me was like, hey, after athletes get nervous and like, you know, one of my favorite comedians, Adam Sandler, he told me when he or he said on an interview, he said, not me, but some interview, that when he first hosted Saturday Night Live, he was nervous. And I was like, wow, this is crazy. One of the best comedians got nervous hosting Saturday Night Live. So it's like, you know, it's okay if I'm getting nervous. So again, instead of emphasizing that end result, but more just like, you know, the, the process and acknowledging that it' you know, some of these challenging steps will come up along the way. Just, I think that might normalize and actually free people up to develop the strengths that they need.

A (27:57)

We live in a society that's very sophisticated. We've gotten to a point now where most people have a general idea of how the world works and what the lessons of history have been. However, the same standards keep being applied to what femininity is, what masculinity is. It doesn't take into consideration new research, new discoveries, new attitudes, new mores. Why do you believe the same tired standards of what it means to be female or male are being applied in 2026?

B (28:34)

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think some of this is just so ingrained in our society and, you know, know, sometimes we just see this, this pendulum swing from one end of the spectrum to the under end of the spectrum, back to the other. And you see these extremes and it's like, you know, let's just, you know, let's try to find, you know, some more balanced, healthier way. So, you know, this would be an extreme example, but maybe will illustrate the point. But it's like, you know, if, you know, if a man is told, like, you know, okay, in order to be a guy, you've got to be like, you know, tough, aggressive, compass, repetitive and Angry and, and, and then, you know, they, that doesn't work for them. So they go the other end of the spectrum and someone says, like, okay, you know, you don't need to be, you know, tough, aggressive. It's, it's, you know, it's okay. It's okay if you're, you know, passive or weak. Well, then that doesn't really work either. So it's like, why don't we focus more on trying to find this, like, healthy middle ground and say, like, you know, as a man, you know, you can, can, you can show courage and you can be assertive and oh, also women, you can be courage. You can have courage and you can be assertive too. Like, you don't have to swing from, like, one side of the spectrum all the way to the other and all the way to the back. Like, let's recognize that there are, like, these nuances and it's hard to kind of find that healthy balance. So I think one of it is trying to focus more on the nuances and finding this healthy balance, balance rather than like, swinging from one end of the spectrum to the other.

A (30:21)

How do you, as a person and as a psychologist define toxic masculinity?

B (30:29)

I mean, so I guess I can just. It's hard to give a definition of it, but I, I mean, you certainly see examples of it. I mean, I would say, you know, overly aggressive behavior to the point where you feel like you have to, you know, yell or screen or be physically aggress people or, you know, at times, one thing we sort of touched upon, but not in detail. But if you are overly focused on the end result of your performance or the, or just your job being your sole identity, you know, if you don't meet that performance or you don't, you know, have that job or that title, then you're a failure. You know, those are certainly some examples that I see. So I guess, you know, toxic masculinity, it's hard to put a definition on it. But, you know, if you're overly identifying with, you know, these traditional masculine norms to the point where it's causing like, you know, poor functioning with your mental, physical, or social health. Sorry, it's probably like a diagnostic answer. Not really like a good definition.

A (31:40)

It's a good definition. It's a good definition. You often speak about meaningful work rather than successful work. From a psychological standpoint. What happens to a person when vocation and identity drift too far apart?

B (31:54)

So there's a, you know, again, a couple ways to look at this, but, you know, kind of touching upon what we said before. If your identity is just your vocation, and then you lose into to an unhealthy point where you see, okay, and again, you're talking about toxic masculinity. You know, if all of your identity is just focused on your vocation, then you have a very like, fragile sense of self. Because if that vocation is taken away, then your identity is, you know, for some people it feels like it's completely gone. So if you have this over emphasis on identity and vocation being connected, then you're constantly going to be in this state of anxiety or, you know, you make temporarily really feel good if you get a raise or you get a promotion, but you're going to be anxious if that's taken away. So that's, that's one example. You know, on the other hand, you know, sometimes they're, they're so far away where your, your vocation is so inconsistent or incongruent with, you know, your deeper calling, your personality, your identity, then that often just looks like, you know, depression, anxiety or confusion. So, you know, again, then, you know, towards the end of my legal career, I started to recognize, you know, my, my personality, my values, my interests, my, my deeper callings are not consistent with my vocation as a lawyer. And, you know, that was leading to, you know, work stress, anxiety and some depression at times. So, you know, again, if you can kind of find, like, if you can act from a state of this, of intuition or calling, saying, like, okay, this is what I feel called to do, and I'm going to go after it from the state of like an inner knowing or inspiration or intuition, you know, then oftentimes that vocation naturally aligns with those, those interests, those passions, those callings. And, but then you're like, okay, if you, I'm going to do this, I hope I'm successful, but if it's not, then I'm going to go back to what my calling, you know, points me towards next time. Time.

A (34:12)

That's a valid point. What I also recognize is that too many individuals are consumed, smiling for the economy. So how can people begin to separate livelihood from selfhood without destabilizing their lives?

B (34:26)

Yeah, so I, you know, I often ask this question, you know, of myself a lot too. So, you know, providing for your family and if you don't have a family that you have to provide for, just providing for your basic needs. I mean, you know, that is one of our human fundamental needs. So, you know, I would try to find a way to provide for your basic Needs doing something that's consistent with your values, interests and personality. And so it doesn't necessarily mean that, like, oh, you know, my passion, like, like, I'm always just going to follow my passion or my dreams and, you know, avoid, you know, taking care of my. It's like, okay, I'm going to try to find a balance. I mean, you know, at one time, you know, I think when I first considered leaving law, I was like, oh, man, my passion is like being a motivational speaker, but it's like, I mean, I wasn't going to make any money doing that, but I was like, started to look a little bit deeper into that. I was like, but you know what? When I look at that from a deeper level, my true passion or calling is like, like helping people, trying to help people on a deeper level. So then it's like, okay, how can I incorporate that value or interest in a way that's going to generate some income for me that's, you know, consistent with my values? So it's like, you know, taking a look at, you know, what are my callings, what are my dreams, what are my interests, what are my personalities, and how can I, you know, find a way to generate income to support that? That. So again, I mean, that's a pretty, you know, technical answer. I mean, if you want a shortcut. I truly believe if you're following your callings and you're open to help that comes along the way, that, you know, your basic needs will be supported. You know, you might not be a millionaire, but you'll find a way to, to get all your needs met.

A (36:33)

It does more often than not seem to work out that way. Way. However, obviously we live in the kind of an environment where sometimes economy shapes identity, economy shapes views of masculinity, views of femininity, and people will contort their personal values in order to make an income, which I think does cause pretty specific sorts of problems. On a separate topic, your podcast has hosted voices from spiritual movements that many clinicians quietly keep at arms length. What do you think psychology gains by listening rather than correct directing?

B (37:09)

Yeah, so I mean, you know, there are certain topics and subjects and questions that psychology doesn't ask and that it doesn't have answers to. And, you know, again, these are typically realms of like, the transpersonal, the mystical, or the, the spiritual. And I mean, I, I can remember when I was getting my PhD, we had a class on, and I asked the teacher, I was like, what do you think about, you know, people who say that they've been able to communicate with their loved ones who have passed away. And like, she just gave a textbook answer. She's like, well, for them, that provides them greater meaning. And I'm like, well, yeah, it does provide them greater meaning, but there's a lot more to it than that. Like, what if that was a legitimate experience? Like, so, you know, if psychologists can, you know, validate those experiences, you know, that's going to. Therapeutically, it's going to give a patient the space to feel like they're being heard and understood. And again, you can do that without pushing your own views. But essentially, you're allowing your patients and your clients a chance to feel heard and understood when they're talking about certain ways, subjects in areas that, that some psychologists may, you know, poo poo minimize or out and out dismiss.

A (38:41)

In private practice, what was the most challenging thing you heard that you felt the compulsion to listen to and accept rather than correct or modify or reject yourself?

B (38:55)

Yeah. So I think for me, one of the toughest things is, is, you know, when I get into psychology, I really felt like, okay, I can help everyone and all they got to do are like, X, Y, Z and they'll get better. And, you know, unfortunately, that's not always the case. There's some people who, they don't always get better. They're not always willing to, you know, follow the suggestions you give them. So I think I just had to learn that for some people, they really just need to try to be like, heard, listen to, loved, tried to unders, be understood, to give them some empathy. So as, like, as much as I would like to try to tell them, you know, this is what you need to do to get better, you know, the. For me, just learning to step back and realize, okay, sometimes just listening to them, even if, if I don't think they're getting better or doing the things that I think they should be doing, if I can just listen to them, that gives them, it's almost like this container where they feel like they have this space where they can be heard and they can be understood. And it's like for some people, like, that helps them function. Like, they feel this sense of dignity, empathy, unconditional positive, positive regard where they feel like, okay, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm okay being myself even if I'm not getting better or doing some of the things that I could be doing.

A (40:33)

Further to that, do you believe that curiosity maybe help therapeutic relationships? You've experienced more than interpretation as a model has?

B (40:43)

Absolutely. I mean, it's funny you mentioned that because that's probably the best piece of advice that I ever got as a clinician was somebody just told me like early in my career, like, you know, always follow your curiosity with, with your patients. Like if just if something, if they say something and you're curious about them, ask a follow up question. So I mean, that's always been my driving force, like in sessions is like, oh, I'm curious about this. Like, why did, like why did you say this? Or tell me more like, why did you do this? And just kind of like hold. Putting that space of asking those questions from like a state of curiosity rather than a state of like, you know, judgment, like. So, yeah, curiosity, I think are, you know, counselors and therapists the best, absolute best tool?

A (41:33)

When have you had experiences that were causing tension because of curiosity? Maybe patients who said to themselves, why are you asking me so much about what I think or what I believe? And how do you diffuse those moments?

B (41:49)

So I mean I, I say this humbly, but it really doesn't, has not really come up that much, I think because the way I do it, I try to do it without judgment or you know, with like a genuine positive regard. I mean, sometimes when it comes to like harsher substance abuse, I will just be more direct. Like if, I mean, if somebody's using substances where I think they're going to harm themselves or at times I've worked with patients who have like homicidal ideation and I have to be much more direct with that and I just have to be like, look, if you keep using this, you know you're going to die. Or if you act on some of these homicidal thoughts, you know, you're going to end up in jail. Like, is it really worth it for you to go to jail and act on, on these thoughts? But I, I've, I mean, I'm trying to think of no one. There was one time a patient told me he was thinking about bombing a hospital and I asked him, are you really thinking about doing that? And he, he got upset about me. He got, he got upset because I asked him about that and he, he stopped seeing me after that. So I guess that was a time when I, there was a rupture and I did not repair it. So sometimes you have to just have to ask these questions. Most of the time it works pretty well. But yeah, sometimes you just have to ask them because you have to be more direct. But most of the time it comes from a good place and ends up working out. Well.

A (43:25)

I absolutely advocate curiosity I just realized that in a clinical framework, sometimes there are particular conditions that might inhibit or prevent the curiosity of a therapist. I was wondering what your idea was about how to de, escalate situations like this gentleman who wanted to bomb a hospital. Clearly there's not a lot of things we can do. But in your best assessment, do you feel it's better to distance yourself from the narrative they're presenting or to dig deeper into it?

B (43:53)

So yeah, I mean, it really depends on the situation. I mean, so sometimes I will tell them like most of the time I will ask them like, you know, I, I can't tell if you're really, if you're saying this just to like blow off steam or you're venting or you're really considering doing this, like if that's the, I mean, are you, and then I'll just ask them like, are you really like considering this or are you just saying this? So sometimes I'll ask it like that, that most of the time, if I have to ask like a really tough question like that, I'll, I, a lot of times I'll just tell them like, look, I, I, and this, I'll tell them this at the, every patient, this, at the beginning of every session. I say like, look, I have an, I have an ethical and legal obligation to ask you, you know, follow up questions if you tell me you're thinking about harming yourself or harming others. And then if they, if that comes up again in session and keep in mind these are pretty rare cases, I mean, but it does happen occasionally, then I may, I may just tell, remind them, say like, you know, as I, as I told you earlier, I do have a legal and ethical obligation to ask you these follow up questions if I'm concerned about harming yourself or harming others. So I have to, I have to ask you this legally and ethically and, and again, most of the time they, they understand that when I'm, when I'm asking them those questions. But yeah, no, these are, these are very challenging situations, but they're also pretty rare. But they, they, they happen maybe like, I don't know, once or twice a year, which over a 15 year period that's actually probably come up quite a bit.

A (45:42)

In your clinical experience, where do you see the clearest tension between personal intuition and socially inherited expectations?

B (45:53)

So I mean, again, some of this comes down to some of the things we've talked about before, but we have these social expectations that we have to meet these certain milestones at certain ages. So for example, like socially you know, it's like, okay, you graduate from school at this age, then you get a job at this age, and you get married at this age, and then you have kids and you get a house. And then if you. So socially, you have all of this pressure to meet these milestones at these certain timelines. And if you don't, then there's. There's something wrong with you. But from an intuition or a spiritual level, you know, your, your spirit or, you know, your authentic self, it doesn't always work on this timeline. I mean, you used a great word earlier, circuitous. I mean, I feel like my intuition or my spirit just took me on this circuit path, and I mean, I kept following it, but I was not meeting these certain, you know, milestones at the ages that most people meet them. So it's like socially, again, you just have this pressure to meet these milestones. But intuitively, you know, your intuition, it operates on a different timeline.

A (47:12)

It does, it does. To touch this topic differently than we did earlier, where do you most often see clients overriding intuition in favor of approval or safety?

B (47:25)

Yeah, that's a great, great question. I mean, I do see it a lot. Like, you know, with this need to, to get a job, work, and make money. And again, that's tricky because it's like, like we talked about before, like, it's important to have a job and provide for yourself and, and, you know, find something that's fulfilling. But if that is, like, the only source of your identity, then it becomes, like, so much pressure and so much anxiety. So, like, a lot of times they'll, like, if they don't have a job, they'll just, they'll feel like they're a failure. And then they'll feel like, you know, that they won't be able to find a partner who loves them. So then it's kind of like, okay, you know, wait a second. Like, yes, getting a job, making money and doing that in a meaningful and fulfilling way is important. But if you have not met that particular milestone that society says you have to meet at a certain age, then, you know, that doesn't mean you're a failure. So, you know, like, let's take a look at, you know, what are some of your strengths? What are some of your values? What are some of your interests? And, you know, what is your. What might your intuition be calling out to you? And, you know, what actions do you think that's. That's causing you to take? You know, in the, in the near.

A (48:50)

Short term, what practices do you believe help people Relearn trust in their internal signaling.

B (48:59)

Yeah, so that's a great question. So, I mean, certainly like more traditional practices like yoga and meditation, I think work really well for some people. It's so hard for them to quiet their mind that meditation might not at work. So then, you know, there might be things like clinical hypnosis that can really help people get in touch with some of their internal intuitions. Biofeedback can also help people learn how to regulate their body's nervous system to help quiet their mind a little bit. And then if they are inclined, like yoga, nidra and yin yoga are also. So yoga practices that are really designed to help quiet the mind and calm the body. So those are some of the practices that I've used and recommend other people using and seen really great success with.

A (50:07)

Is there a top methodology you prefer? Hypnosis, meditation, yoga, emdr, anything of that variety?

B (50:17)

I've seen the greatest, and this might not sound traditional for people. I've seen the, the best results for clinical hypnosis. I've seen people with some of the most extreme PTSD imaginable. And when they start the session, their stress level is at like an 8 or a 9 out of 10, with 10 being the highest level of stress. And when they get done with a clinical hypnosis after about like 15 minutes, their stress level is down to. I mean, if you have access to that and know someone who can do that, that is, somebody described it as traditional psychotherapy is like using a sander. Clinical hypnosis is using like a jackhammer. So I, I'm a believer in that. If, if people are not into alternative forms of therapy like clinical hypnosis, going for a walk in nature, that's something. If. If is probably one of the best things that you can do. So if. If somebody's not really into hypnosis or yoga or meditation, then, you know, just. Can you, you know, spending, you know, spending 10 minutes or an hour, you know, going for a walk in the woods or somewhere in nature, that is fantastic.

A (51:36)

And yeah, I think an alternative a lot of people can probably afford.

B (51:40)

Yeah, exactly. I know. Yeah. I mean, if you really want to connect to your heart, you know, go for a walk in nature, and that's probably the best way to, to really connect with what's really important to you.

A (51:54)

The Japanese have a practice of forest bathing, and certainly it does satisfy a lot of the population where, when they are in need of whatever kind of communion that looks like and it's not something that's feasible financially, then they will go on romps and hikes through the fore forest into deeply wooded areas believing that being in that presence is very useful therapeutically to them.

B (52:19)

Absolutely, yeah. I mean I think that, yeah, you may have said it. It's called like, I think forest bathing. And now people even do like wilderness, you know, therapy. But yeah, I mean if I ever, you know, if I can, you know, take a day off, I'll usually try to spend, you know, and the weather's nice, you know, spend an hour or two going for a hike somewhere in nature. And it's, it's, it's amazing after that, you know, it's almost impossible to be in a bad mood after you've spent like an hour going for a walk in nature.

A (52:50)

I agree with you. I absolutely agree with you. When you look at your own path now, law to media, to psychology, what inner signal do you trust most when deciding whether a life choice is aligned or merely comfortable?

B (53:06)

Yeah, so that's a really good question. I mean it's really for me like an interesting inner calling, intuition or knowing. Sometimes I'll try to pay attention to my body. Like if my body feels strong or at peace, like I'll, if I'm trying to make a decision about what to do, I'll hold different options in my mind. And you know, one of the options would generally bring a sense of peace and the other option or generally like a sense of peace or just like strength. Like I'll feel my, my body strengthen at peace and the other option generally will not feel that sense of peace or that sense of strength in my body. And then I try to trust that, that option, that intuition or that calling. And what's challenging for me is, you know, sometimes I'm like, okay, you know, this is what I feel like I'm being called to do. But I still feel anxious about it. Like, I mean I'm like, I still, this is not necessarily like what I want to do. Like you said, I'd rather, you know, be comfortable, you know, stay at home and watch a movie and. But I feel like called to get out and you know, do something a little more active or a little more volatile, you know, a little more worthwhile. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not always like this easy process, but that's what I try.

A (54:32)

I'm excited that you brought up your personal interoceptive sense. What signals do you pay attention to that recognize external alignment. Is this something that you feel is intestinal? Does it feel cardiac related? Where do you place those interoceptive signals in your positive assessments of your environment.

B (54:53)

So a lot of times, I mean, it is like a subjective inner knowing. It's like, if I'm trying to make a decision, I'll hold one decision in my mind. I'll visualize myself, myself doing it. And if it's a, if it's, if it feels like a deeper peace, or like some people call it a piece that passes understanding because it might be like, my conscious mind is like, oh, man, I don't want to do that. But then like, there's this deeper level of peace. Sometimes, though, I can actually feel my shoulders relax. Like, if I'll hold two decisions in mind, like, oh, should I, you know, go. Go out tonight? And, you know, maybe it's like, if I, if my shoulders are tense, then I usually don't. But if I just. If I feel my shoulders relax, then it's usually like, that's a sign that my body's at peace. And it's usually the right thing to do. And you know, what's interesting is, so most of the time that leads to a positive outcome in the short term, but sometimes it doesn't. But, I mean, 99.99% of the time in the long run, it's led to positive outcomes. Now, sometimes the long run's been like, 10 years later. But then I'll look back and be like, oh, man, I'm. I'm glad I did this. Like, you know, I'm glad I left law to become a psychologist. That I. That feels really good. But, you know, at the time, it was, you know, I, I. That felt like the right decision. But I wasn't, you know, still was like, oh, man, this means I got to go back to school and I'm not going to be making money for a while. But now I'm really glad I did that.

A (56:36)

That's fantastic. So how has your definition of a good decision changed over the course of your life?

B (56:43)

Oh, man, that's a great question. I mean, I, I've probably tried to, you know, and I usually ask myself to without sounding, like, preachy. I'll usually ask myself, like, does this decision serve the highest and best? Good for everyone who's concerned. And so that's another question that I'll ask when I'm making this, these decisions. And now, obviously, I don't know that because we don't know, like, or we don't know how our decisions have affected other people. But then I'll usually try to look back and be like, okay, how has this decision impacted myself and the people around me? Like, has this decision led to, you know, greater sense of peace and well being for myself? And has it also led to me being able to provide a greater level of peace and service to other people? So again, you know, hopefully this should go without saying, but, you know, lawyers are good people and they, they do do good things. But I, I felt like I could do more good as a, as a psychologist. So it's like, you know, not only does psychology, not only do I enjoy doing it, but I feel like I can, you know, reach a greater impact helping other people. And now that's a kind of a bigger example, but just even like on a smaller level, you know, take a daily choice. You know, should I, you know, should I go for a walk or hike in the, in nature? Well, it's like, obviously I feel good after I go on that hike in that nature, but, you know, if I feel good, you know, do I have more energy to help my, you know, my wife and my son out? So it's like, okay, if I make a decision and I'm in a better place to serve those people around me and make a greater impact to those people around me, then I'm like, okay, you know, this was, this feels good. Not only because it makes me feel good, but I know I'm in a better place to, to provide a greater service to other people, which is of.

A (58:54)

Great value to be sure.

B (58:56)

Yeah.

A (58:57)

One thing that I hear you saying over and over again is that change rarely begins with certainty. It begins with honesty. Honesty to self, honesty to community, to family. That is a fantastic message to deliver. For people who want to read more of your work, where would you send them?

B (59:16)

I would go to spiritual media blog.com that's spirit. Just how it sounds. All together. Ww.spiritual media blog.com or if they want to get in touch with me, my email is on that website, but it's. They can also just email me at editor, spiritual media blog.com that's fantastic.

A (59:39)

Matt, thank you so much for sitting with me tonight. This has been extremely insightful and I know many, if not all of my listeners will benefit from the perspective you present, which runs a wide, wide gamut from law to psychology to spirituality. That is a huge swath to cut out of the world and out of our consciousness. So I appreciate you for that and I look forward to talking to you again soon.

B (60:04)

Oh, well, thank you JC So much for having me on this show. This was a, an honor and a lot of fun to have this conversation with you.

A (60:12)

It absolutely was. It absolutely was. Take care of yourself and your family, and I'll talk to you soon.

B (60:16)

All right? Thank you.

A (60:21)

As tonight's conversation comes to rest with you, I invite you to notice what stirred quietly rather than loudly. Insight doesn't always arrive as revelation. Sometimes it appears as recognition. If something in this dialogue echoed your own experience, a sense of misfit, a longing for coherence, a question you've postponed out of duty or out of fear, know that such moments. Moments are not interruptions. Instead, they're signals. Change rarely begins with certainty. It begins with honesty. If you wish to share any reflection on this episode, or perhaps send a question to clarify something you've been thinking about, perhaps you'd just like to share a thought that stayed with you, please write to me at theobservableunknownmail.com or text me at 336-675-5836. I read every note with more care than you can imagine. If this episode has resonated with you, a rating and review would help this work reach those who are quietly searching for it. I thank you for listening, and I thank you for attending to the interior questions that have shaped your life. Until next time, this has been the observable unknown.