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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the observable unknown, where science meets the unexplained. I'm Dr. Juan Carlos Rey of crowscubboard.com and after two decades of working at the intersection of comparative religious studies, grief counseling, anthropology, quantum mechanics, and consciousness studies, I've discovered that our most profound human experiences often exist in the space between what we can prove and what we can perceive. In this podcast, we'll explore the measurable influences of immeasurable forces, those hidden factors that shape our reality but often escape our traditional scientific frameworks. From the latest research in consciousness studies to the ancient wisdom that's now finding validation in neuroscience and quantum physics, we're here to bridge the gap between academic rigor and spiritual insight. Whether you're a skeptic, a seeker, or simply curious about the deeper mechanics of human experience, you're in the right place. Together, we'll examine the evidence, challenge our assumptions, and explore what happens when we dare to look beyond the obvious. There are people who do not simply.
- [01:17]
B
Work in the world.
- [01:19]
A
They bend it ever so gently toward growth. They design experiences that don't just inform, but awakening. They educate. They mold. They transform. Whatever they hold, they leave behind no statue, no symphony, no temple of stone. And yet they build invisible cathedrals in the lives of those they touch. My guest today is one of those people. For nearly two decades, Margie Dillenburg has walked alongside leaders who imagine new futures, from the heart of social impact to the restless edge of for profit innovation. She knows what it means to help something small become something world changing and to carry a full heart into spaces that can sometimes forget they have one. Today we look past the resume and into the mystery. Who is the designer behind the experience? What moments of doubt, wonder, heartbreak and transformation made her the guide she is today? And what is the hidden current, her own private dialogue that flows beneath all she does? So without any further ado, let's join the conversation.
- [02:41]
B
Hey, Margie. It's always fantastic to hear your voice and to see how you've been doing, how you've been managing your life. And I'm very happy you decided to sit with me today. One of the first things I wanted to jump into is when you personally close your eyes and picture the first moment you realized you could change someone's life through your work, what memory surfaces?
- [03:03]
C
So the first one that comes to mind was right out of college, I had a bohemian dream to move to California. My best friend and I, who grew up together, went, drove out there and worked on a school. It's a very long Story. But it was this like intervention school for new arrivals to the United States. Most of them were ESL learners or undocumented persons. And I really, the first year, fumbled the ball. Like, I just kind of went through life how I normally did in college. We're like, oh, just trying to pass. But then I all of a sudden had a realization that I was an adult in these kids lives and how much power I had. And I wasn't there to enjoy myself. I had this deep responsibility. And I think it was maybe the first week of school, my second year, where I had a student named Isaac. I'll never forget him. And he had been held back for two years. He had a mustache in the sixth grade. And I could tell he was troubled, but I had a plan. So he was a really good artist and drawing really great pictures. And I just doted on him with praise. I'm like, I bet you this kid has never had a positive experience with a teacher. He's been held back. He's clearly a little disruptive and creative and the classroom isn't his zone of genius. And then I also knew I probably would have to call his parents several times during that year and give them bad news because he did something. I. I just couldn't tell. And so I decided to call them first on the first day of school and just told them how great he was. I was like, he's a fantastic artist. He did so well. I'm so lucky to have him in my class. I think he's so funny. And I looked and they cried and then I cried. And he was a dream for me the rest of the year. And I call myself an experience designer, but really I'm an educator. I think education is so multifaceted. Like, it's not just the book you read or the words you read, it's the whole environment that you put yourself in. The feeling, the nurturing, the teaching, the guiding. And that was the moment where I was like, wow, what an honor and responsibility it is to be a teacher of any kind. And Isaac, to this day we're still Facebook friends. And actually I'm friends with all my Facebook friends. Well, Facebook, so silly. But with all my students from that, that year. And I just like every once in a while they'll pop in or send me a little note on my birthday. And I'm like, wow, that, that was 20 years ago. And they, I don't know, it was just such a moving. It was a very big day. And I almost feel like there is before that and after that. I feel like that day grew me up and made me realize I was an adult with the responsibility to serve.
- [06:02]
B
Yeah, I love the application of this concept, this responsibility that spiked in you over Isaac. Was there something about him or his circumstances in particular that really brought that to the forefront of your mind?
- [06:18]
C
I think the year before I'd had some kids who were. Had behavioral issues. We'll call. And so I got a little better at noticing it beforehand. And I. Something my mom used to always say to me is, you can only criticize to the extent you supported. And there was nothing about him in particular. It was just like. It honestly felt like one of those clairvoyant moments where maybe it was my guides, maybe it was. It didn't feel like it was from me because I'd never had that thought before. It was a brand new thought and there was nothing special about him. He wasn't the best looking kid in the class. He wasn't the one I. Who was the most powerful or I was the most drawn to. I just had the idea and I did it. And it was such an immediate piece of feedback, positively. And it was that day I just. This is really weird, but I've had these pivotal moments where I'm like, I decide to try my best, where normally I like to have a good time so I can float by on a beat and do just fine. And this one, I was like, no, I'm gonna give a hundred percent. And if it burns me out, it burns me out. But like, man, what would happen if I tried my best? Like, I just hadn't really thought of.
- [07:38]
B
That before, what that would look like. Yeah. Yeah, that's fantastic. So, that being said, what do you believe? Obviously, speaking to his parents, crying on the phone with them in that moment, what did that reveal about you? Something you might not have known before.
- [07:55]
C
I think that was the moment I knew I was a teacher. And I. The funny thing is I come from a long line of educators and. But I'm not. I. I don't. I couldn't accept what they just gave me on face value. I had to find it for myself. And I came from a pretty, like, controlling household. They're very dogmatic and didactic and had a very specific way I had to be. And I always feel like my. I blame it on being left handed, but it's probably a number of other things. But yeah, I think it showed me. I was like, oh, no, you and I. At the time, I was teaching English as a second language to mainly Spanish speakers. I didn't Speak Spanish. And that's when I realized, like, while the content is almost secondary to the environment you create and how you call somebody forth, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, that's. It all came together that year. It all came together. I'm like, you should teach and you don't need to know the content that much to design an environment. And maybe you've read this or I've told you this, but I always say my life's mission statement is designing environments that invite people to grow. And that day, I think I didn't have that clarity of thought, but that was the day I was like, yeah, I'm this. I'm in it. This is what I'm doing the rest of my life.
- [09:19]
B
So it felt as though you awakened to your role as an educator because you found a position to fit into that wasn't formalized by your family's expectations of you.
- [09:33]
C
Right. And I didn't feel like I had to teach in the classroom. There could be non traditional ways and other things you can do. It wasn't like sitting there reading a textbook, checking homework assignments. It just. Yeah, I really. It was a mini awakening moment. And those moments are just so priceless. Yeah.
- [09:52]
B
Oh, absolutely. The most priceless. So, may ask, why esl? What drew you to that in particular?
- [09:59]
C
Ooh, great question. So, nothing. I didn't speak Spanish and all the other people I was teaching with had a subject area expertise, and I just kind of was like, I'll do whatever. I'm like, I've never taught before. I don't know. I was a, like a computer science major with a minor in ceramics. We weren't offering any of those disciplines at this tiny little middle school. So, yeah, it was. I just wanted. I also, I'm not a really great reader. I'm more of a math and science person. So it was easier for me to teach something that I struggled with. So because I knew the tricks I had to do. It's almost like I always wondered this about our education system. Like, why do we have double PhDs teaching the 101 class? Like, they don't know how to bring it down to earth. Their head is up in the clouds. So, yeah, that was an interesting. Yeah, I think that was a day that's really insightful.
- [11:01]
B
I frequently hear that the best way to learn something is through teaching it. Maybe you were touching on some aspect, as you already said, you weren't a great reader. Maybe you were touching on some aspect of your own desire to speak better, speak differently, or help others Speak differently. Differently, because the whole concept of experience construction or experience design is at the heart of education. There's no mistaking that. It's inviting people to grow. It's inviting people to change what's happening, whatever trajectory they found themselves on. You share a moment when someone else designed an experience for you. And of course, we're still speaking about education. Changed you profoundly or unexpectedly?
- [11:46]
C
Yes. The one that I that comes to mind is most recently I. A friend of mine who I'd worked with several years ago, he started a program in Austria called the 100 Years Project. And I've been to a lot of different conferences or retreats, plant medicine. I mean, I. I will go and have an experience. And I really love things that challenge or pop my bubble and makes myself see things in a different way. And I didn't have any money. I don't know why I said yes, except for I really trust his sort of resonance. There's something about the quality and his integrity that I'd follow him. So I said yes without any hesitation. He took us to the mountains of Austria and did this thing called a decelerator. And instead of learning, he kept gently. And he wasn't this direct, but we would take walks in nature. He would point to elements. It was such a gentle and emerging plan for his. For our time together. Five days in the Austrian Alps. I mean, how bad can it be really? But, like, you can't fumble that ball too. Too bad. It was so beautiful. But he'd wake us up and come and we'd go watch the sunrise while a man played instrumental music behind us live. We did. We wrote a song together. It was very creative and with a very spacious. And what he did was he created an experience where you could hear your inner truth. He created space and nature and pointed to truths that are all around us all the time. And I. My mind, it's not blown because we all know this intellectually. Oh, the truth is inside you, you know. Or yes, you know that. But to experience it and just have someone hold everybody back from emailing you or asking you questions. He had the opportunity to stand on a stage and have us all listen to him. He had the opportunity to take a bunch of pictures and make social media posts instead. He had a visual artist draw emotionally what she felt we were going through instead of. And then he had a musician come and play, like, his own unique compositions while we were there. And it was. I really am an evangelist this. I'm like, yeah. So it was the most beautiful experience that was ever designed for me and that I got to experience. And I realized how everyone packs stuff in, and I'm like, wow. I think giving breathing room so you can hear your own inner voice. It really. It changed something in me so that I thought that was, like, a beautiful design. And I guess along the same lines with Isaac, that I don't even remember what I was teaching Isaac that day. But, you know, spending time with him, getting him to trust me, letting him know that I cared about him as a person before he passed a test or anything, that there's, like an emotional safety before you can experience or think. Your imagination can think of something new and then get curious about that thing. Right. So I think maybe there's a crimson thread between those two experiences where it was something new, but the emotional space was so gentle and defended and lovely that I really. Yeah, I think about those two things all the time. Yeah.
- [15:24]
B
There. There looks like there's a parallel, because in both of these cases, you have something of an open space. With Isaac, you didn't connect particularly over a topic or a background point or anything that you saw clearly that you. That you knew you. You found yourself in. And then in the Hundred Years experience that you were discussing. I'm sorry, the Hundred Years project, that was one where clearly he was trying to give you a vacuum, to fill the void with your own thoughts and your own feelings. That's an interesting template, and it's a very clear kind of canvas for you to paint, whatever your story is. That being said, though, where do you think. Your desire to input your thoughts, your feelings, your ideas, where there's an open space, whether it's Isaac or the Austrian Alps, where do you think that comes from? Obviously, you came from a family of educators, but is this something that's more unique to you? The desire to leave an imprint or to leave your mark?
- [16:27]
C
I have that desire, but there is a feeling. And J.C. i wonder if you feel this every day, but when you tap into your own zone of genius or your own, I. I have, like, a cheesy metaphor, but your own. The note you play in the symphony of life, you know the one, and you hit it and you do it. And how time feels different. And you. You can get tired, but.
- [16:59]
B
You could.
- [17:00]
C
You can feel tired but not exhausted. It's still somehow generative, and there's like a. An arrow to it, like that life energy where. When I can hit that, it's. And I think part of that, too, is I. I really believe in. I don't remember what that Japanese term is. For where like the crack is when they paint the gold over the crack. Pottery. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I, I think I had some personal wounding around that. And so when I get like in my upbringing to someone to just let me feel my feelings or give me space to, to take all the things I've learned and have them come together. And then confidence comes from competence. Right. So. So I didn't have a lot of opportunities to do that. It was just like go to school, succeed in this, succeed in that, not be spacious places to play and explore and make up world, build. And that just wasn't my reality. Excuse me. So when I get to give that to somebody else or even personally experience it, it's so. And I don't think that's something that I experience in this world very much. It's all that masculine energy of like go, go, go, produce, produce, forward. I mean I like a nice valley that's spacious to like skip in. And yeah, I want to turn left. And so, so there's that. And then I would also say the joy of my life is learning. It's the most joyful thing I can do. Like learn something that challenges my container, breaks it apart. So I need to rebuild it bigger. And I think I also had like some judgmentalism baked into like my puritanical upbringing. And every time I see a judgment and get to laugh at it because I was so wrong, I just, I've just learned to love that feeling so much. So maybe it's a little self centered but I think I'm like a junkie for that feeling, so I just chase it.
- [19:12]
B
Is this because you believe that in your youth you weren't allowed that freedom?
- [19:17]
C
I think that's a significant part. Yeah. And now I get it and I'm an adult and I pay my own bills so no one can tell me no. So when I can do that it's like great. And when I can create an emotion, I think it is creating an emotional environment where someone is safe faith and they don't feel judged or pushed or like what I'm saying isn't pedantic, but then you can have them. You know, someone said this to me once and I thought it was the most beautiful metaphor. He was a Mexican guy, Juan Pablo actually, which is funny. Juan Carlos. Juan Pablo and I were talking and he was, had some sensitive man. He was, but he was running an organization and he had a co founder and when they would come into conflict he would say to him, okay, let's, let's play together. Like when we were little kids, we would try on other identities and try on other thoughts. And it was playful. And if we don't like it, we can go back to our other. Our plain clothes and, you know, put on our other thoughts. And what a beautiful way to tell somebody or invite somebody into challenging their assumptions. And I think creating an environment where someone feels safe enough to play, safe enough to look at something from another angle and be wrong and know they can pivot and no one's going to judge them or be silly about it. Yeah, I'm a junkie for that. Those conversations where you can explore and play.
- [20:53]
B
I love that there was a psychologist, and I'm sure he's still alive today. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi Hero Flow. Talking about this zone of optimal efficiency and a positive drive towards progress, change, open thought. It's actually a really complex but beautiful concept. Every time I hear you say genius zone, I keep thinking that's what you're silently referring to. Is this the concept of flow that you are now describing yourself as a junkie for getting yourself back into the genius zone through the inspirations that you're pulling out of these experiences?
- [21:30]
C
Exactly like I actually. I know that book, but just enough to be dangerous. I know the concept of flow. So the concept of flow is exactly right when you're in that. That where time sort of feels different and energy feels different.
- [21:46]
B
Yeah, yeah. That immersion, that engagement that really makes you feel driven or lit or set on a new path, if that makes sense. And yeah, I feel that myself quite frequently, hearing that drive speaking to you from someplace else, playing the note in the symphony. And I love that imagery. The idea of playing your note in the symphony is this concept that you carry and that you're addicted to, which I think is beautiful, something that you hold up as. I know I'm maintaining this because I want to rebel against the format I was educated in. Or is it more? I've just found my sweet spot and I want to stay in it.
- [22:32]
C
You know, I bet you it's a little of both. But when I am consciously aware, I really try not to run from anything, but rather like chase joy. And I find that just is a better intention, maybe, and I get a lot more out of it. I have a really strong tendency towards being punitive. So when I see injustice or someone does something wrong, I want to get them back. I put petty Margie, I tuck her away. But sometimes when I'm tired or hungry, she comes out. But when I can acknowledge it and then, you know, Have a pretzel, then. I feel like it's. It just. If you. Because I think what we're talking about here, and I'm actually really curious about your creative process, but I know. I don't know if I'm okay to ask that, but.
- [23:33]
B
Of course you are.
- [23:33]
C
Yeah. I feel like we're talking about creativity and it's better to just come from that. Like I'm going towards something rather than I'm like knocking something away. I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I think a lot of great art and creativity comes out of rebellion. But I think I do better when I just am grateful and I know what I'm doing and where I'm. What I'm chasing. I guess I like that.
- [24:07]
B
Yeah. Gratitude is a very significant drive, even in my own creativity. I believe, at least for myself, if there is something that I feel passionate about, then being driven to explore it further is only natural. It feels like a reflex. For me, it's more often than not curiosity, which I think is what's driving my desire for understanding or knowing. And then, of course, the desire to help. I believe that that's a big drive that I've obeyed for a long time. If either of those are present, it, for me represents the flow that a lot of people like yourself feel addicted to or feel really comfortable in. Now, that being said, you've moved from nearly two decades now in social impact into obviously for profit ventures. Was there a single moment or a quiet series of moments when you realized your path had to expand beyond the purely philanthropic?
- [25:08]
C
Yes. Ish. So I have a very practical. And I haven't sort of sorted through this in a very organized way yet, but a couple things happened. Number one, my. As you might remember, my dad got sick and I just needed to make more money. So it was very pragmatic. And the other thing that happened too was, you know what? Maybe it's better to start here. I am also addicted to the resonance of alignment. And so when something is out of alignment, and I don't know how to describe the feeling, it's almost like someone tapping me on the shoulder in a very irritating way. I get a fire under my seat, like I can't stay in misalignment. And I think it's because I have a deep understanding that if I do, an event ungoverned by me will force me out. So I can either start finding my own way out or it's going to get worse and worse or I'll get more and more anxious. So I was in philanthropy, working on a project, and it just got untenable. I was getting so anxious, and I wasn't anxious because of the workload. It was one of those feelings inside where it made no sense on paper because I, you know, I was making decent money. Especially if you're working in nonprofit, you can't expect to be making a lot of money. And I was doing just fine. I, you know, had a great apartment, the job was good enough, but it just made me more and more anxious. And so one day I just gave my notice and told myself I had a month. And then I called a bunch of friends and tried to find the thing that resonated, you know, with a more of a check in my spirit. And to be completely honest, I accepted something out of fear and I knew it wasn't right and it sent me towards the for profit. But as you know as well, like, even mistakes aren't mistakes. So I learned so much. I also learned just as much dysfunction in not for profit is in for profit, you just make a little more money. I also wanted a job. I was very straightforward and I could just execute on and then help my family where I needed to. And I also didn't want to go to business school, but I had a lot of gaps in my learning that I wanted to fill in. So going into venture capital for a while was a mini business school that gave me so much learning that I would have had to pay for otherwise. So, I mean, it's not the sexiest story. And now I'm fighting my way back to philanthropic work just because once you have alignment and you're giving back and you can feed yourself and live fine. Like, I don't need to be fancy, but I do love to pay my mortgage.
- [28:16]
B
Of course.
- [28:18]
C
Yeah.
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B
And that's a beautiful observation because I think it was necessity that pushed you out of philanthropic, philanthropic work. And now it's drive or desire that's bringing you back to it. But when you see that necessity where clearly you want to pay your mortgage and your family needed the help that you could provide, do you reflect on that as being. And obviously it was a difficult time in your life, but you reflect on that as being transformative in a way that reflecting now on that period. You say you're so glad you had this hiatus where you left the world of philanthropy and now you're coming back.
- [28:56]
C
I am so grateful. I'm so. I hope I'm not. I just told somebody this today. I think I present as a pessimist, but I'm an Internal optimist. So I'm. I hope I'm not naive, but if I can frame things around gratitude, I'll choose that thought, if for no other reason that it feels better. Like, I'm happier when that happens. So I do believe there's a greater spiritual vibration to gratitude. I think it creates abundance. I. But I'm like, okay, let's say that's all hooey, which I don't think it is. Yeah, it feels better. So just choose that. Yeah, I'm so grateful for that time. I met so many people I wouldn't have. And now in the job application process, as I'm. I think I have my next gig lined up, and they're so impressed with the diversity of experience, and now they're like, well, you can really run something legitimate, and we need to get there. So I think it's. It's. I don't know. It's. It's served me so well, and I'm extremely grateful. And it was so nice during those years to not worry about money. Of course, like, when I have to worry about my family to, like, not worry about this other thing. It was. It was. I was fully fine.
- [30:21]
B
Yeah.
- [30:22]
C
So. Mm.
- [30:23]
B
You know, economics drive a lot of choices. And I would say in our personal dealings, I believe that you're a realist. I wouldn't say that you're pessimistic at all. I think you're very clear thinking, which I honestly attribute to your father. You seem to have a very direct approach to everything put in front of you. You don't have a lot of assumptions. You lean into. You take a thing as it is, which is a testimony to you and to your merit. When we consider that subject of responsibility, which obviously something that you take very seriously. It's come up now three or four times since we've started chatting today. It is obviously part of your gift. You know, you are very much someone who takes responsibilities more seriously than most other people and accountability more seriously than most of the people who you interact with. Is there a time when you've witnessed growth that didn't feel responsible but that you decided you were going to stay in the experience? It was valuable to you because even though it didn't match the. The ethical compass you would like to attribute to it, you still found merit in it.
- [31:34]
C
Have you ever heard. I think it's like an old Buddhist. I don't know if it's like a myth or a metaphor about that old man who lived in the village, and he said, what's. I don't know what's good or who knows what's good or what's bad. Where. Yeah, yeah. So just for your listeners, there's an old man and he, I think he goes off somewhere and he falls off his horse, his horse runs away and comes back to town. Everyone's like, oh, that's so awful, I'm so sorry. And he goes, oh, who knows what's good or what's bad? And then his horse comes back with a second horse and everyone's like, that's so wonderful. And he's like, I don't know what's good or what's bad. And then his son takes the new horse out to break it in and it bucks him off and he breaks his arm and the whole town's like, oh, isn't this awful? And he's like, he knows what's good or what's bad. The next day, you know, the army comes to recruit all the able bodied people to serve in the military, but they don't take him because his arm is broken. You know, and the story goes on and on and so there probably is. But I mean, honestly, sometimes it's more mostly with dating where I'm like, I know this is naughty, but I'm doing it anyway, but I can't. And even those, I'm like, I'm so grateful even for the discipline of the bad feelings I get after, you know, doing something I know I shouldn't do or touching the hot stove. I can't, I can't think of, I can think of one professional experience. But this goes back to the alignment and the resonance of alignment. I think where I was taking, you know, they hired me at a nice retainer and it was a for profit company that made money hand over fist for two very wealthy gentlemen. And I wasn't doing anything and I was just receiving my money. And so there was part of my brain that's like, well, if they're not giving me work to do, no matter how much I'm trying to drum it up, that's not your problem. They should be concerned that you're getting. And it just didn't, it felt I couldn't do it for that long because to take money knowing I wouldn't say like I didn't earn it, but like it just, maybe it's my again, like my puritanical roots or something. Like I, or maybe it's, I believe that I, I do have a lot I want to give the world. And sitting around just collecting money, it just feels like sitting around, I Don't know. I just couldn't do it. It just felt terrible. Yeah. So not sure if that answers your question, but all in all, I can't think of an instance where I'm like, oh, but I learned something anyway, that was the one that felt the ickiest. It made me realize I don't like to take money. I don't. Where I'm. It's not an equal exchange or bi directional relationship.
- [34:29]
B
Where do you think that comes from? Obviously your upbringing. But what aspect of your upbringing?
- [34:34]
C
Well, there is, I've done a lot of deconstruction, but I think it's the new construction of my spirituality where I'm like, rivers are never the same twice. Right. You never see the same river twice. Like it's got to be flowing in one direction or the other. It's got to be raining and then getting hot and condensating into the air. It's like things have to be moving. So if you're just sitting around consuming, I, I, maybe I've just seen too much of that. It just, I think it's out of touch with. I don't even like this word. But like my new theology where like that's not juicy, the exchange is juicy, the taking is weird. So yeah, I like that.
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B
It's interesting that you have a specific value system attached to the concept of taking. What is your value system attached to the concept of giving?
- [35:28]
C
Oh, that's such great questions. Have you ever read the book the Energy of Money?
- [35:37]
B
I have.
- [35:38]
C
Oh, that book is so good. I do think it's like a practice. So just for a little bit of background, I was raised evangelical Christian and I just talked to a friend that I grew up with today who is queer and did not have a great. And he grew up Catholic, but obviously did not have a great experience in the Catholic Church and was in the closet for years and years and years. And where was I going with this? I totally just lost my train.
- [36:12]
B
You were speaking to your friend came out of the closet and it was.
- [36:16]
C
The idea evangelical upbringing. Oh, we were, we were saying we were so grateful, you know, disappointed in the small mindedness of how religion can be. Some religion is great and really scaffolding into a higher levels of consciousness. But the cultural version we inherited wasn't, didn't lend to great experiences or a lot of learning for us, but it did teach us a lot of discipline. And we also were talking about it was a cultural part of our religion, to quote unquote, tithe. And since I've left that behind but then started to collect my own construction of the spiritual world. I do think like giving, no matter when you feel compelled or giving as a regular practice, it creates space for receiving. And I think they both are very interconnected. Like, I have a. I have. I have had friends who simply demand things from me or simply give things, and they don't have the other imbalance. So I see the two kind of like an abacus, where you've got to be sort of exercising both. And I do think I try to make giving a practice. Like on. Here's one example that even in times of when I don't have a ton of resources to give, I host a dinner party every Tuesday night. Anyone can come. Just bring a small dish. I'll do the rest. I'll cook, like, the main dish, and I have, like, drinks. And it's just something small I do for my community to bring people together. And no matter what, I'm like, I really think this is a practice I should budget for. It brings me joy. It brings the community together. Yeah. So I think giving and receiving have. And I also remember my friend Philip told me once, he's like, you can only receive. You can only be as generous as you have the capacity to receive. I'm not sure I believe it, but that is a fun thought to play with.
- [38:28]
B
It is a fun thought to play with. It absolutely is. It actually brings us back to something you referenced earlier, the parable of the old man who lost his horse. The idea of this. We don't know whether something's good or bad until further down the road or how something finally ends up. Is that what motivates you? Not necessarily the parable itself, but your choices to let things stew or simmer or sit, hoping for more outcomes that broaden your horizons or improve the lives of others. When you're setting the seeds that you're planting, are you planting because you're hoping to have your own realizations? Because you really want to see a change in the world?
- [39:13]
C
There's, like, I think a Maya Angelou quote that says, at one point I realized everything everyone taught me was bullshit. So I started at zero. And that happened to me around 40, where I'm like, okay, none of this works. So really trying as hard as I can, I'm most of the time unsuccessful at this, to not have an outcome in mind. And that's why this Hundred years project was so significant for me, because the man, his name's Mark, who designed it, is so wise and knows so much. He could have taught us things or could have taken us through a process or had us read a bunch books or something or listen to podcasts, I don't know. But he instead trusted divine timing to bring the truth to us and have it be emergent. And I, I guess I find the more I'm able to do that, like I can give without the closer I can get to my own voice and that intuitive obedience to that, to the nudge, the thing that happens is greater than the thing I'm. And trust me, jc, I'm a strategist. I love like setting a plan and executing on it. But as much as I can clear space to hear the tap on my shoulder and as much as I can have courage to try and let it unfold, I don't think I've been dropped yet, if that makes sense.
- [40:49]
B
It does. It does. Yeah. You're one of the most fortunate people I know. So I would absolutely say that you've had a charmed path and I'm sure it hasn't felt that way. Clearly you've been through the ringer, but the idea of the universe catching you seems to happen over and over again.
- [41:05]
C
It really does.
- [41:06]
B
Brings me to the idea that you have, on your own, through your efforts in the life that you've lived, stood alongside literally world changing leaders. If you had a chance to look into the hidden side of leadership, whether these are anecdotal pieces or something that you've theorized and then had the theory satisfied, what surprised or even unsettled you the most about this concept or these individuals?
- [41:29]
C
I love this question. I think it's that power and money corrupt. Now that doesn't mean be afraid of those things, but there has to be a detachment and there also has to be like a, like almost a hermeneutic, like something you put your own opinion through. I have seen so many leaders slowly detest any friction and been able to out, you know, write off all the friction. So, okay, you have enough money, get an assistant, get a cook, get it. That's great. I, I'm not. Again, I'm not saying those things are bad. But then soon everyone around you is on your payroll and there's a power dynamic. So no one's telling you the truth. What is better than the truth, jc? What is better? The truth has legs. It's going to stand up. It's the fastest way from here to there and it will come around. So I just see them constantly. I guess it's like try to outrun suffering. And the more I watch them do that, I, I Feel like a new personal like nudge on my shoulder has been to show them the truth and how good it feels. Because your soul is not ignorant. Right. You know somewhere that no one's telling you the truth because it's like your cook and your assistant and the girlfriend you pay for all your stuff for, you know, like is they're not gonna jeopardize, you know, the house they sleep in.
- [42:59]
B
Right? Yeah.
- [43:01]
C
So yeah. Just how it can corrupt and yeah, maybe it's kind of a stoic, I guess belief where it's like work in leadership. Like working friction in to your life and not outsourcing it all again is like a practice and then seeking out people who will give you the business. Like my friends are in my shorts. They will read me the business no matter what. And I hate it, but I love it because I know that's harder. And I. Yeah. A lot of the leaders that I've worked with, I'm like, oh, honey. And I also feel like that's been a little bit of my special sauce because I can deliver the truth with a velvet glove. So they don't feel beat up by it. But they know I'm gonna tell them the truth, so they trust me. They just don't trust the people they're around and they don't know what that thing is because they can't articulate it in their head or else they have to really change their life. But yeah, I think that is an underbelly of leadership that is.
- [44:04]
B
Can you think of instances either in the lives of leaders you've dealt with directly or even just philosophically you think about who don't appear changed by the power they wield.
- [44:17]
C
I think this gentleman mark, who started 100 years, I think he hasn't where he was handed. He ran a very successful ad agency in Los Angeles. And then it was only going up and up. He was set to hire like 20 new employees and they realized he wasn't happy. Or maybe it's similar. I should ask him about this. But that inner residence that he wasn't aligned and he pretty much torched his successful career to move to the a remote village in the Alps. He's Austrian anyway. But to return to his roots and really be part of his daughter's life and be a better husband. And he's like, I'm not going to sacrifice myself, my happiness and my body to make more money. He's like, the money is supposed to serve myself, my happiness, my body. So he's one of. And that's why I Went on this when I had no money and no time. I put everything on hold and went out there to experience this. And now I really, I actually think any leader who's on the verge of burnout should spend a week in the Alps with 100 years.
- [45:26]
B
Where would they go to find out about the program?
- [45:29]
C
I think it's called, it's, you know, let me look it up. I think it's the hundred years dot one hundred dot years. I should have had this queued up. I didn't realize I was going to talk about so much. And so, you know, sometimes things are more important to you than you even know.
- [45:52]
B
Yeah. You know, and it's clearly something that's inspired you and that's important. It might inspire others. And you're certainly correct. Burnout is real. I mean, I think we're experiencing on a global level right now. So the idea of people decompressing their nervous systems and feeling better about the work they're doing is badly needed in this time.
- [46:16]
C
Well, they can just email me if they want to project.
- [46:20]
B
Dylanberg margmail.com so when in your own life did you feel like a dynamic leader, much as the individuals you've described? What was the moment when you had to step into the center rather than facilitating change from the wings? What was the highest point of leadership you think you've enjoyed at this point?
- [46:42]
C
So after I was a middle school teacher, I remember I was teaching these students and overwhelmed at the responsibility. I had, you know, maybe 20 kids in my class at the time. It was my fourth year and it kept coming to me in my dreams. It would come to me in my quiet moments. It's like, there's more for you, there's a bigger platform. And I remember thinking that and like, is that me? Is that God? What is that thing? And then feeling slightly ashamed because I was so obsessed with my students. I was like, what possibly could be more important than these little souls I get to be with every single day? I couldn't imagine it. And of course I got burnt out because I dumped my entire life into the school and put in my resignation. And then the last day of work, I got a call from a friend of mine who had started this organization called Invisible Children or he hadn't started an organization, he had made a 30 minute short film and said, I need you to help me take care of the people. Like we have someone to take care of the money. We're going to go make movies. I want you to take care and organize the people. And I don't know how to explain it, but I hit sort of like a spiritual flow of a good idea whose time had come. And very quickly. The best I can explain it is it worked. So within three years, we went from a $50,000 budget to a $15 million budget. We were. You know, we had a following of over a million people, and I had such imposter syndrome. But also at the same time was like, I know I'm. I am made for this.
- [48:31]
B
Yeah.
- [48:31]
C
And I got to organize an entire student movement around this remote problem in this, you know, in Eastern Africa. And it. Yeah, we ended up. It ended up working. And we made this movie that was the most. I think it's still the most viral video of all time, get 100 million views in one week, and organize this wonderful student movement right at the peak of sort of Internet optimism. So it was a really. It was a really dynamic time. And then I remember meeting all these people and like, how did I go from teaching Isaac sixth grade in this tiny little border town school to, like, sitting at the inner. At a table at the International Criminal Court in the Hague prosecuting the worst criminals? I don't. It was just like. And still to this day, I'm like, was I cosplaying, like, what happened there? So it's very bizarre. But that was. I mean, and I was young, too. I was probably, like, 28 at the time. And I just couldn't believe I got. The universe gave me. Believed in me to do that.
- [49:41]
B
Yeah.
- [49:41]
C
I'm like, me, really. So that was really cool.
- [49:45]
B
So you bring up the issue of imposter syndrome, which is interesting because most people who I think suffer it don't have the sort of charisma or vibrance that you have. If you suffer imposter syndrome, which clearly you believe that you do, do you remedy it by telling yourself anything about the path you've been on or where you find yourself today.
- [50:07]
C
Whenever it comes up? Yeah. I'm like. I'm just kind of like, shut up. Like, why not me? Yeah, why not? And I work so hard to trust myself, or I don't think I betrayed myself for so long, where I'm like, you can figure anything out. Remember, you love learning. Like, figuring out a problem that no one solved before is like, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, like a delicious little dessert. So, yeah, I just. I think I just. You know, I'm also a Leo, and we do not struggle with insecurities, so that helps.
- [50:44]
B
That does help. It does. So earlier you mentioned the Dichotomy between being a computer science major and ceramics. That's quite a dichotomy. What, what made you pick these two obviously very different fields.
- [51:02]
C
The other one in there too, my other sort of like, focus was, was called peace studies. It was basically like conflict wasn't conflict resolution. It was like international conflict and wars and the resolution of those wars. And when I told my dad I was going to be a peace studies and ceramics major, he's like, the hell you are. So I had to look for something a little more practical. And that was. Yeah, that's. And I, I liked math and science and I knew, like, computer this. So this is what, 2001. I, I remember actually in my advisor's office in 2001 trying to decide where, what major I was going to be. He's like, have you heard of this new site called Google? And I wrote down google.com book so that, that day I was like, okay, the Internet's a whole thing. It's here to stay. And so I should. I better learn about it.
- [52:02]
B
So that's fantastic because with this wide array of interests that you had and some interests you were led to because of your father's opinion, where do you find yourself now in those fields of study and intellectual exercise? Do you, do you still make pottery? Do you still explore the advancing arena of computer science? Do you still explore peace studies and topics related to it.
- [52:32]
C
All? Yes, to all the above. So one of the reasons I, I have a hard time, not because I have a hard time with commitment, but I know learning is my North Star. My friend Jedediah always says, you need fresh meat. Like you have a tiny border collie living in your head and you need to, like, eat it, like, like new tasks all the time and keep it working. And so one of my clients is an arts college down the street, and funny enough, it specializes in the ceramic arts. And so I get to go into the studio and have free use of it while also, like, expanding its program so that it can be available to the community and seniors and young people. So that's really fun. I, I'm. I love emerging technology. I find it very interesting and I hate it because it can fry your brain. So I'm learning how to navigate my maven qualities to understand that world without letting it become a constant need for. Yeah, like, more easier. Again, going back to the friction, like keeping some friction in my life. I try to do that very intentionally. And then peace studies, this new position I'm stepping into is for a. Well, actually it very Much fits all of this. It's a new. It's a foundation that's starting. That amplifies marginalized stories. So this. It's a technology production studio that wants to start an associated foundation, but they want to tell stories that people can't fund because of, you know, for obvious reasons. And they want to do that, but they want to make the technology they developed available. So tons of green screens and those suits you put on that can turn all kinds of crazy, like, cinematronic. Animatronic stuff. So that's what I'm. I'm moving towards. And I. It's combining a lot of my interests and experience, and it feels very exciting and, like, expansive in my heart cavity. It makes me get bigger and excited and scared and the good scared and all that. So, yeah. Yeah, I think as long as I'm learning and yeah, it's. Life is such a crazy adventure.
- [55:03]
B
Yeah.
- [55:03]
C
Such a crazy adventure.
- [55:05]
B
It really is. You brought up your maven qualities a few moments ago. Do you believe this is a. A list you keep adding to, or do you think you've reached your limit?
- [55:14]
C
Oh, I hope there's. I hope there's no limit. And if there finds a limit, I think it. That might be like, neural. A neurological added adaptive quality of. And getting an older brain. But I really do want to be on my deathbed and be exhausted. Like, I want to be, like, I squeezed every second out of this wild thing that I possibly could have. Like, I have a lot of older people in my life who are like, oh, it went so fast. Like, what did? I don't even remember the last 10 years. And I understand that because the brain likes patterns and it likes. It wants to keep itself alive. So if you're fed in a certain way, you can just, you know, do the same things over and over again. But I want to. I just really, every couple of years want to shake things up or change intentionally and have to, you know, I moved, you know, this. I moved from Cambridge, Massachusetts, to a remote town in Vermont where I knew nobody. And having to figure it out was so terrifying but so creatively inspiring, like. Like, how am I gonna get my car fixed? How am I gonna, you know, get my heater fixed? How am I. I don't know. Where am I gonna get my groceries? I don't know. It's such a fun. So, yeah, I hope. I hope there's no limit. I think there. You can find a limit if you want, but I hope I fight that.
- [56:43]
B
Fight the limitations.
- [56:44]
A
Yeah.
- [56:44]
B
Yeah, I can totally see that. Seems to match your temperament. So thinking about how it is that you bring as much of yourself into everything that you do, as full of a heart as you possibly can, would you be willing to share a story when your heart broke over the work you were doing and that you found some growth out of the heartbreak that changed you in a way that allowed you to lead others in a different direction?
- [57:11]
C
Yeah, I think the thing. I have a couple things that comes to mind, but I think the most relevant would be when I was leading that organization, we were having so much success. We had so much momentum and, like, viral. So many viral moments. I felt such a responsibility to our staff who worked so hard for this remote issue that would never affect them otherwise. It was purely altruistic. This is the right thing to do, so we're all doing it. And as I was. I think it was my eighth year, which isn't eight in numerology. It might be a number of completion or like. Anyway, it was my eighth year, and I was getting the tap on the shoulder of misalignment. And I was devastated. This was all going on inside me. I couldn't tell anybody else. And also, coming from a very evangelical background, I was living the perfect life. I had this beautiful job. I was living in San Diego, California, in adorable little apartment that I could walk everywhere. I had a Vespa and a little dog. And I was just living my best life, like, doing meaningful work that I was good at. And I could tell the grace that I once had to do an excellent job was going to be removed from me soon. I just had this, like, very deep inner knowing, and I didn't tell anybody. I started grumbling and getting upset. I started abusing alcohol to shut the voice up. I didn't know this was happening at the time. It was just. I was just discontent and I didn't know what to do. And so I started. I started realizing I was grumbling inside and in my inner thoughts, thinking of all the things I didn't want and I didn't like. And I decided one day, again, this felt like something not of me said, so, what do you like? And so I started a list on my phone. What are the things you do want to do? You have all these things you think about all the time you don't want to do. You don't want to get up and go to work today. You don't want to listen to that person compl Complain anymore. You don't want to go to that meeting where that intern takes up all the Space. You don't. You know, there was so many. I don't want to. I don't want to. And so I started this list. Everything from the silly to the sublime on this list of things I did want to do. And I'm like, just start ticking them off. Start with the easiest one. I want to get, like, my motorcycle license. So I took a weekend and did that, and I just did, like, little movements. There were big things on there, like, get my PhD or. They all seem like such pipe dreams. But once I created that positive movement, it gave me the confidence to tell them I was leaving. I gave them a very long Runway. But to leave, I knew I was gonna have to withstand so much questioning, and I didn't know how to explain it to myself. So how could I explain to somebody else? I'm so sensitive, too. So I'm like, if enough people question me, I'm not gonna do it. And I just felt so unhappy, and I'm like, I have to take a chance on my. On something new. So I completely, you know, I started applying to schools, and that's when I went back for my doctorate. And in Boston, which is the polar opposite of San Diego, I didn't know a single person. And I remember it was September, and I was in Boston. I had just packed my whole life up, moved across the country, didn't know a single person. I was sitting in a crappy Starbucks with, like, an electric fireplace, and it started to rain outside. And if you know San Diego, it doesn't rain there. And I started to cry. And someone's like, are you okay? And I'm like, no, I'm just so happy. And it was so weird to have all the circumstances of my life be perfect. And I was miserable. And then I moved to this, like, miserable town. Boston is a miserable town. And it's raining, and I have no friends. And I'm thrilled. So that it broke my heart. And then. But it needed to be broken because it needed to expand or be put back together bigger. Yeah.
- [61:17]
B
So I love. Yeah, that's a really beautiful story. So let's just imagine a younger version of you were to meet you, the one just entering the life that is ahead of her, which you realize is the life you're living now. If she were watching you, what do you think she. She would recognize in you immediately. And then what would surprise her completely.
- [61:37]
C
So I am living my youngest self's worst nightmare. And it's awesome. Like, all the things I was. Thought I needed to hate. Like, I am not married. I And when you're a young little evangelical girl, all the only identity you have is, like, be a good wife and mom. And I think those are wonderful callings. They just weren't on my critical path. And I. I think my younger self would be, like, so surprised at how happy I am despite not having any of the things she thought she needed to be happy. And maybe that plays into my love of. Of learning or love of surprise or, like, the full archetype. Like, life is so silly. Like, life is so silly.
- [62:22]
B
So it certainly can be. And it's great to have that approach, because then you don't take losses or challenges too seriously. They're not too.
- [62:30]
C
Yeah. If you just wait long enough, it'll change. Right.
- [62:34]
B
So just give it 10 minutes. Now, when the world looks at you, when the people around you see you, what do you think isn't clear to them? What's invisible to them? What is your own private unknown that quietly shapes everything you do?
- [62:53]
C
I think probably how, like, tender I am. Like, I cry every day. And I think I have. I just came from this meeting where I did a pitch and asked for a big chunk of money. And someone's like, you just exude confidence. They're like, how did you do that? And I'm like, I'm so scared. I'm like, that's. I don't know. Did that come out okay? So I think it's. It's not imposter syndrome, but it's like, I do have this, like, almost a bodyguard that can present, but the bodyguard is so tough because the inner child is so tender and. Yeah. And I get my feelings hurt all the time, and I have to talk the little girl out of it or just, like, hold her for a little bit. Be like, it's okay to get your feelings hurt, or they probably didn't mean it, or. So I think that sensitivity is what makes me, like, almost tougher because I. I block for it. Like, I block for her. And I try to be as direct as possible and because, like, yeah, she doesn't like to be. I just know that inner child so well. It's just love to be surprised. She doesn't love to disappoint people. And so I think I've developed some other tools. The other thing, too, going back to the teaching thing, is like, designing in these environments. When you design these environments, it takes a lot of, like, operations and planning and logistics and strategy. I don't like those things, but I like what those that. Like the terra firma that. That creates. So that you can play. And so I do think that sensitivity has drives like my skill building so that I can protect it. I don't know if that. That makes a lot of sense, but it does.
- [64:51]
B
It does. So instead of the confidence you exude being a paper tiger, you're explaining that it comes from allowing a heightened sense of sensitivity in an interior space that you don't share with others.
- [65:05]
C
Yes, exactly.
- [65:07]
B
That's fantastic. It's a great well from which to take your confidence. And what a fantastic note to end on. Thank you so much for sitting with me, Margie. It is always delightful to chat with you.
- [65:19]
C
And again, my favorite humans on this earth, you are. I don't even think you're of this earth. So anytime I can collaborate with you on anything, you're just a genius, Mar.
- [65:28]
B
I appreciate that so much. If they were to contact you about the program you mentioned. Again, if you would spell out your email for the audience.
- [65:37]
C
My email is Dylan Berg. D as in David I L L E N B U R G M A R g I e gmail.com.
- [65:50]
B
Fantastic. Thank you so much for sitting with me today, Margie, and hopefully we will have a chance to chat again very, very soon.
- [65:56]
C
I just adore you. Thank you so much.
- [65:58]
B
Absolutely. I adore you too. Take care now.
- [66:01]
C
Take care.
- [66:01]
B
Bye.
- [66:01]
C
Bye.
- [66:05]
A
Sometimes the most extraordinary lives leave no map. Only the gentle curve of moments where something shifted. A glance exchanged, a door opened. An experience that quietly rearranged the furniture of a heart. Today, in our time with Margie, we walked the the corridors of those invisible cathedrals she's been building her entire life. We touched the edges of her joy, felt the tremor of her heartbreak, and glimpsed the mercurial current of curiosity and care that moves beneath her work. And perhaps as you listened, you felt that current brush against your own life. That whisper of possible possibility, that invitation to create growth not just in organizations or projects, but in the secret rooms of the human spirit. Margie's secret is not a single moment or a hidden talent. It is the courage to design in the dark, to guide others toward light, and to know that her life's masterpiece is written in the hearts she has quietly changed. And as we step back from today's conversation, perhaps her current carries us all forward a little. Into the softest and most luminous corners of our own uncharted depths. Remember, what appears unknowable often stands right before us, waiting to be observed through both the lens of sight and the wisdom of spirit. Until next time, this is Dr. Juan Carlos Rey of crowscupper.com inviting you to look deeper into the observable unknown.