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The OCD Stories
Alex Habens: A Therapist's journey with OCD and Compassion Focused Therapy (#540)
00:46:20
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- [00:00]
Stuart Ralph
You're listening to the OCD Stories podcast hosted by me, Stuart Ralph. The OCD Stories is a podcast dedicated to raising awareness and understanding around obsessive compulsive symptoms. I do this for interviewing inspired therapists, psychologists and people who have experienced OCD. Welcome to the OCD stories and welcome to episode 540 of the podcast. And in this one I chat with Alex Havens. Alex is a BABCP accredited CBT therapist, clinical supervisor and OCD specialist. He also works with myself at the Intricativ Centre for OCD Therapy. In this episode we discuss why he became a therapist and his own OCD experiences. What is Compassion Focused Therapy or cft for short, compassion more generally, integrating CFT into OCD treatment, Shame, connecting with compassion, Fears, blocks and resistances to compassion Compassion during exposures, his CFT therapy group and his new CFT therapist training that he's running soon. And thanks to our podcast partners, nocd. If OCD is interfering with your life, NOCD can help their licensed therapists specialize in exposure and response prevention therapy. The most proven therapy for OCD with NOCD, effective treatment that is 100% virtual, is available for children and adults with OCD and most members can get started within seven days on average. No hassle, just real science backed help and support between sessions. Begin your journey@nocd.com or I'll put the link in the episode description. It's great to have Alex on. I speak to him weekly obviously because I work alongside him. He's a wonderful therapist and it's great to have him on sharing his work with CFT and OCD with you all. So thank you to him and thank you to you guys as always for listening. It means a lot. Without further ado, here is Alex. Welcome to the podcast, Alex.
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Alex Havens
Thanks for having me.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, it's good to have you on and of course we, we work together. But to start with what got you into being a therapist and then a therapist that works with ocd.
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Alex Havens
Yeah, yeah, so. So the journey to becoming a therapist started in my early 20s. I'd done a social work qualification and I'd been on a placement at a local charity. It's a mental health charity working with young people. And as soon as I got there, I was mixing with counselors and therapists and psychologists and I got that sense that this is what I want to do. These people that I'm meeting, I felt a real connection with and I just became fascinated with the work that they were doing. Um, I have my own history with anxiety and depression and I think it just. It. It felt like it made sense. It's like this is an opportunity to help people with similar things that. That maybe I've experienced when I was the age of the clients who were coming to this charity. Um, and that was the start of the journey. Um, but in terms of ocd, I'd been diagnosed myself when I was in my. Again in my early 20s. So it kind of overlapped with my therapy training. I was already training to become a CBT therapist when I was diagnosed with ocd. I realized, I think, like a lot of people when I was diagnosed, that I'd had it for a long time, but I'd just not maybe known what to call it. I'd mentioned to people some of the things I was experiencing and that I wouldn't say dismissed them, but often the reaction I'd get was, you just need to stop worrying or, you know, you're just being too sensitive. But in my early 20s, the intrusive thoughts was experiencing, escalated, and I was having really distressed, really distressing thoughts about harm. Sexual intrusive thoughts. And I approached a therapist. And, you know, fortunately, the therapist that I saw was a. Was trained in working with ocd. I had ERP with him. He was a CBT therapist. And, you know, that was really successful and helpful. But over subsequent years, over the next kind of 10, 15 years, OCD continued to sort of linger. You know, there was. There'd been this significant improvement as a result of the therapy, but you could say there were a lot of lingering compulsions, you know, lots of rumination. Um, and I don't think I'd fully understood at that time the extent of my OCD and sort of how. How broadly it was impacting on me. Um, but over the years, I think as I started to become more interested in. In supporting other people with ocd, my own sort of recovery continued. Um, and now I'm at a point where I hesitate to describe myself as somebody who has ocd. I like to say I have lived experience of ocd. It no longer affects me in the same ways that it did. And that's been partly about, I guess, being on that journey of learning more about OCD as a therapist. So in some ways, my recovery has kind of progressed in parallel with the people that I've been supporting. So in the end, it just felt natural to specialize in ocd. It's something that I'm very passionate about. I think my own personal experience helps. And, yeah, that's where I've landed.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, thanks for that, Alex. Yeah. And I'm glad you shared a bit of your background. So had you got the diagnosis just before starting training in cbt or was
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Alex Havens
it kind of same time it actually coincided. So it was a really difficult time because I was just beginning to learn about CBT as an approach, and that involved, you know, having training on OCD and other common anxiety disorders. And it was at the same time that things were beginning to escalate for me. So I was, you know, I was in a position where I was beginning to help people with anxiety problems. But, you know, privately, if you like, behind the scenes, I was really going through it myself and having lots of support, not just from. From my therapist, but also from, you know, my clinical supervisor and other people that, you know, were involved in supporting me and my work. So it was kind of happening. At the same time, I think what I'm grateful for is something that I've always experienced is that when I'm in a therapy session with somebody, my. My stuff goes to one side. You know, I'm able to. It was almost, you know, the therapy sessions I was doing with other people were the places I'd get a break from what I was experiencing. But outside of work, I was. I was having a really difficult time with. With OCD and intrusive thoughts. I was very fortunate to find the right therapist at the right time. He was fantastic and helped me to gain an understanding of what was happening. So. So it was like I was going to lectures during the day and learning about OCD and other anxiety disorders, and then I was having therapy in the evening and kind of making sense of my own situation. Yeah, so. So, yeah, it coincided.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, obviously, hard. You. Hard and horrible. You went through that, but in a way, like, what a great learning that you were doing the therapy that you were delivering at the same time. Yeah, receiving it. So it's, you know, we. I think we learn more from our own therapists sometimes than we do in our education. As thera.
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Alex Havens
Yeah, absolutely agree. Yeah. I think as well, the experience of sitting in the other chair and things like, erp, I know on a very kind of personal level what that feels like, you know, and. And how. How challenging that can be. And, you know, I felt a lot of. I felt safe with this therapist and had a lot of faith in them, and it gave me the opportunity, you know, to. As well as, you know, benefiting from the support. It gave me an opportunity to reflect on some of the things that I found helpful. So I was kind of as. As well as receiving the therapy I was also learning from him, you know, and sort of internalizing things like that's really helpful. I think I'll use that or I'll approach things in a similar way. So he was actually a big inspiration for me in my early career. Nice.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, I like that. So let's talk about Compassion Focused Therapy. So you work with me at the Integrative center for ASD Therapy here in the uk. We obviously primarily use ERP and act, but we also, as a kind of a third tier, so to speak, we try and integrate CFT where we can. And you've actually got a diploma in cft. You trained with Paul Gilbert, among other wonderful CFT experts. So initially, you know, what, what is CFT for? No one that has any idea what is cft? Compassion Focused Therapy.
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Alex Havens
Yeah, I knew you were going to ask me that. And it's the one question that I did sort of think about a little bit before, before we met and do a bit of preparation because it's quite, it's quite difficult to summarize it. It's quote, it's a broad model. Paul Gilbert refers to it as an evolution, informed biopsychosocial approach. Um, so it's, it's an integrative approach. It draws on neuroscience, evolutionary psychology, attachment theory, cbt. So it's really quite, it's quite difficult to sum up it. It starts with the idea that our brains and our bodies have evolved to enable us to meet our needs. So to seek out and secure resources that we need to detect threats and protect ourselves. Also to connect with one another, to care for our children, to build communities, to cooperate. But similar to other animals, we tend to prioritize threat and self protection. So that's good, right? That's adaptive. So if we're in danger, we tend to drop whatever else we're doing and focus on the danger until we feel safe. Um, but, but the thing that's tricky about humans is that we can, our threat system can be activated by things in our environment. You know, so real dangers if you like, but it can also be activated by things that we create in our minds. So intrusive thoughts, images, memories, worries, you know, these things can, can also activate our threat system. And one of the ways we can think about problems like OCD and anxiety is we, we become stuck in, in a, in a loop of trying to protect ourselves from threats that seem more real and more scary the more we engage with them. So CFT is partly about supporting people to develop a better awareness of how our evolved minds and bodies operate. You know, learning to recognize times when they might become stuck in a loop. And we're then learning to turn towards those difficult experiences with compassion. So in other words, rather than worrying or catastrophizing or beating ourselves up or all the kind of things that we tend to do when we're struggling, we're learning to turn towards those difficult experiences with awareness, with sensitivity, with a willingness to help. So we're turning towards our difficulties, maybe in a more similar way that we might turn towards somebody that we really care about. So I think that that's my effort to sort of summarize what we're doing in cft. But as I say, it's really difficult because it's a very broad approach.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a really good. A good summary and linking it obviously to an evolutionary basis because. Yeah, that part of our brain, if it wasn't there, we all would have died off a long time ago. That's what I think. Yeah, yeah. Because we would have walked up to the sake of Saber tooth tiger and stroked it because it was a cute cat, you know, because the fret system isn't going dangerous predator, or we would have gone into a rival tribe and, you know, that wouldn't have gone well, probably.
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Alex Havens
Exactly. Yeah. We need our threat system. We want it. We don't want to get rid of it. Sometimes we might, you know.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need it all the time, you know, all of that. Yeah.
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Alex Havens
So I guess CFT isn't. Isn't about trying to, you know, get rid of it. It's about learning to sort of understand how it operates and. And where we can get stuck.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah.
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Alex Havens
In it.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, yeah. How it goes into overdrive, as you see in the case of ocd. Yeah. So just generally on the word compassion, either from a CFT lens or just generally, why is compassion needed and useful to humans and humans with ocd?
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Alex Havens
Sure. Yeah. So compassion is funny. When start talking about compassion with people, it's helpful to begin with the definition because it's a word that people use a lot and sometimes I think misuse and get it mixed up with other things. But a good definition of compassion would be sensitivity to suffering and then a willingness to move towards that, willingness to help in whatever way you can. So if you're walking down the street and you see a child that's fallen in the road and maybe they're crying, you don't have to think about it very much. You just move towards that. You feel this willingness. I want to do something. I want to help, and that's compassion. If you walked past and you looked at them and thought, you know, oh, that's a shame, and then you carried on walking, that's not compassion. And maybe there's a bit of pity for what they're experiencing, but it's missing that connection and that willingness to do something. So in terms of why it's important in therapy, for example, is realizing that we can have compassion for others, we can receive compassion from others, and we can also experience compassion for ourselves. So there's an opportunity to turn towards difficult things that we're experiencing. You know, difficult thoughts, feelings, situations with that sensitivity and with that willingness. Like, I, I can see that you're suffering and I want to help. Like I want to do whatever I can to help you to feel better. Which, you know, as, you know, it's not always the way that we respond to ourselves when we're struggling. We can be self critical, we can catastrophize, we can worry, we can ruminate, we can do all kinds of things to increase our suffering. So compassion in that context is about standing back and connecting with the fact that I'm suffering and I don't want to suffer and I'm willing to do whatever I can to help myself in this situation.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, yeah, I like that. Good explanation. So, yeah, it's like an action, it's, it's doing something around that pain. And you know, you kind of alluded to it there, but obviously in CFT they talk about fears, blocks and resistances. I said it in the right order and, and I guess maybe just, just a minute on that really, because I imagine even people listening to this might be having some of those fears, blocks and resistances right now to the word compassion, the idea of it.
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Alex Havens
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think a lot of fears are around the idea that compassion means being soft. So compassion means just, you know, saying, you know, oh, you know, I'm sorry that you're suffering and almost leaving it there. So people have this fear that, well, you know, if I stop being self critical, if I stop putting pressure on myself, then surely, you know, I'm just gonna, you know, sit around while everything goes wrong in my life. But you know, it's about recognizing that compassion is active. You know, it's not a passive thing. It's not the same as sympathy or pity. It's, it's a courageous thing. It's a willingness to turn towards the things that are difficult and kind of do what, what needs to be done. So, so it's not, you Know, it's not a case of just feeling sorry for somebody or feeling sorry for yourself. But yeah, there are lots of other barriers that come up when you start talking to people about compassion. People who think, I'd like to do it, but I don't think I can. You know, I just don't think I'm a compassionate person. People who maybe have been brought up to believe that being hard on yourself and pushing yourself and being self critical is important. It's a way to motivate yourself. That might be something that they've relied on for a long time. Even if they don't like their inner critic, they may feel that it's worth it. It's like, I don't like that hostile voice in my head, but ultimately it gets the job done. Kind of keeps me on the straight and narrow. It keeps me safe. But working through those fears and blocks and resistance to compassion is often just exploring those ideas with people. You know, if it's about, for example, I'm worried that if I was less self critical that I'd be less motivated. We might look at how compassion could be motivating. I might encourage people to reflect on whether they would prefer, if they had like a coach or a teacher, would they prefer one that was constantly running them down and criticizing them? Would they be open to a coach or a teacher that was warm and supportive and kind? And what would be the differences? So I don't think I've ever worked with anyone who doesn't have some level of resistance to compassion. Some people are more open to it than others, but I think always it involves acknowledging that there are these fears and there are these barriers. And a big part of the work is, is exploring those.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. So with clients of ocd, in what are some of the ways you're integrating CFT into their. Their treatment?
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Alex Havens
Yeah, sure. So I think this, this probably it could be broken down into two ways. I think, I think one of the ways is that they're effectively, we're using a combination of things like ACT or CBT or ERP and cft. So we're kind of recognizing that there are two sets of goals. One goal is I want to cultivate a different relationship with my intrusive thoughts or my compulsions. And the other is I want to actively work on being less self critical or I want support to deal with, you know, feelings of shame. And, and in that way we're kind of, you know, sometimes we're doing ACT in erp, other times we're using CFT to, to work on kind of different goals. But I would say the main way that I'm integrating it is more as a. It's almost like a flavor. It's like I'm doing act, I'm doing cbt. In other words, I'm using other approaches, but with a compassion focus. You know, Paul Gilbert has said that compassion focused therapy isn't a new kind of therapy. Otherwise he would have called it compassion therapy. It's compassion focused therapy. So often people who are practicing CFT are CBT therapists or psychologists or counselors who are adapting the way they work to work with a more compassionate focus. So if I think about something like, you know, working with intrusive thoughts, working with, you know, even, even offering erp, there's a way that somebody could approach that. It's like, you know, I've got to do this. You know, I don't want to do this, but I need to, I need to put pressure on myself. I need to get the therapy done. You know, I need to. Why? Why am I not doing enough erp? I need to do more erp. So, you know, in cases like that, I'm sort of supporting people to look at their situation from a more compassionate perspective. So like an acknowledgement that this is hard, like I'm suffering with this, this isn't easy and it's not my fault. And learning to approach the therapy in ways that feel supportive, feel, you know, gentle feel, kind of that it's coming from a place of wanting to, wanting to support themselves rather than from a place of like pressure or self criticism or, you know, kind of dogged determination. So, so I'd say that's the main way that compassion focused therapy influences my, my OCD practice. We're still doing erp, we're still prioritizing the, the sort of evidence based strategies that we. But we're maybe doing that within a framework that's about sensitivity to distress and showing up with that awareness, with that warmth, with that care and that compassion, rather than offering a different kind of therapy. Does that make sense?
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Stuart Ralph
It does, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's like a lens you're putting over the other therapies.
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Alex Havens
Yes.
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Stuart Ralph
In the same way, when we integrate ACT into erp, it's still ERP or cbt, but it's through this lens of act of acceptance and making space and diffusing.
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Alex Havens
Exactly, exactly. And there are times where somebody, maybe I'm working with somebody with OCD and we realize through the work that they have particular difficulty with self criticism or that Shame is a big part of their experience. This was the case for me in my personal experience of ocd. The anxiety was one thing, but it was also working with the shame and the self criticism surrounding what I was experiencing. And you know, where CFT was originally developed to work with people with high levels of shame and self criticism. And because that's so common in ocd, there'll be times where we do put ERP to one side and focus on, you know, let's explore your self critic or let's think about your shame through the lens of understanding your threat system or you know, let's look at cultivating compassion as a way to interact differently with that shame or you know, whatever it is that's causing them difficulty. So there are times where we'll kind of, I'll make a decision with somebody that I'm working with that we are going to move over and actually focus on doing some more, if you like, kind of CFT specific work. So, so yeah, there's these kind of two different forms of integration, I guess. There's, there's applying CFT as a lens to, to other approaches and then there's also recognizing times when, when a real, you know, a focus on compassion can be particularly beneficial.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, yeah. And just speaking of shame, so obviously, you know, people can be really feel, be filled with shame around their intrusive thoughts and you know, why am I thoughts? What does it say about me to even have these thoughts? You know, blah, blah, blah. How does CFT maybe help with that?
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Alex Havens
Yeah, no, you're right. It's absolutely, it's really common. And I think particularly where somebody, you know, as almost like an aspect to their ocd, they've got this idea that, you know, there's something wrong with me. You know, the fact that I'm having these thoughts or the kind of, the content of the thoughts I'm having must indicate that there's something wrong with me. And you know, therein there's feelings not only of anxiety about the thoughts or the potential consequences, but also shame about as you say, it's like, what kind of a person would think this? I think one of the ways that CFT can help is by helping that person to connect with a sort of common humanity. So in other words, to connect with the idea that shame is a human experience, that anyone who's been alive can relate to that really painful feeling where we feel like there's something wrong with us, you know, fundamentally, not, not just that we've made a mistake or that there's a Specific thing. But fundamentally, there's something wrong with us in that situation. And I think by helping people to connect with that, we can work on, you know, moving towards a compassionate response to that. Like, how would you respond to a friend if they were feeling shame in a similar situation or in the context of group work. For example, if we're running a group for people with ocd, it's giving them the opportunity to think about, well, how would I respond if this other person in the group was feeling ashamed of having OCD or was feeling shame about their intrusive thoughts? How would I want to respond to that? You know, what would I say to them? How would I want to show up for them? And in thinking about that, you know, people can kind of connect with compassion. Maybe not for themselves straight away, but maybe for another person in the group or maybe for somebody that they're imagining who's going through something similar to them. And then, I guess once we've identified what compassion would look like and what it might sound like and what that behavior might look like, then we can experiment with what would it be like to just have an experiment with speaking to yourself in that way or to behave towards yourself a little bit more, like you behave towards somebody that you care about. What would that be like? Would you be open to exploring that? So it's not easy. I think when people are experiencing shame, it's like a very powerful emotion that sort of tends to cloud other emotions. But, yeah, I think it's something that, as we begin to realize that, well, I would never speak to somebody else who was experiencing what I'm experiencing in this way. I wouldn't say to them, well, it sounds like you're just fundamentally a bad person and you don't deserve to get better. So it's just starting to realize that maybe I don't need to speak to myself in that way. Maybe there's a more gentle, more sensitive way that I could respond to this experience that I'm having.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, highlight that. And of course, you might at times be doing CFT quite sort of purely. But then you'll naturally, at times probably switch into something like. Act of like. Maybe we're also going in circles here. Can we just diffuse this? Name it, all of that.
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Alex Havens
Yeah, I think they fit together nicely. I think a lot of my colleagues who practice CFT have found that it just kind of fits well with other sort of behavioral approaches in some ways. I've heard CBT therapists talk about CFT as feeling like what was missing from Traditional cbt, it's almost like it kind of adds something that was needed without getting in the way of all the other helpful things that we're already doing. So I think it works really well as a sort of complementary approach for therapists working across different disciplines.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, yeah, I like that. Because wasn't Paul Gilbert primarily CBT before cb?
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Alex Havens
Yeah. So Paul Gilbert. I mean, it feels strange telling Paul's story, but I have heard it, like, several times, so I feel quite confident that he was. He was mainly practicing CBT as a clinical psychologist, and he was finding that it was working well, you know, for a lot of people. But there were clients that he was working with who had high levels of shame and self criticism, often who'd experienced complex trauma. And CBT would only go so far with them. It was like they were. They were benefiting partially and they were able to generate new, more balanced, if you like, more helpful thoughts, but they weren't really feeling that change in their bones. And Paul started to notice that even though they could talk to him about more balanced thinking, it was the tone. It was the kind of. It wasn't what they were saying to themselves so much as the way they were saying it, the tone of their sort of internal world. And I think that's when he started to get interested in the idea of, you know, of compassion, of, you know, looking at the way that people relate to themselves internally. So, yeah, you know, in answer to your question, I think he was effectively a CBT therapist who realized that there was something important missing and then spent the next 20 or so years, you know, developing that.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, so, yeah, that's. That's interesting. It's good background. So just looking at my questions,
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Alex Havens
how
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Stuart Ralph
would you bring CFT in the moment into an exposure? So you're doing an exposure with someone, you can see they're visibly like distressed, upset, pushing through it. What might that sound like if you're. If you're. Yeah. Bringing a CFT lens to that exposure?
- [31:31]
Alex Havens
I think that's a deceptively tricky question because I guess with the nature of erp, we're wanting to at least some extent to experience. To fully experience the distress. So I guess I wouldn't want to do anything if the distress was at a sort of a manageable level and the ERP was going well, I probably wouldn't want to do anything to sort of actively reduce the anxiety or whatever it is that they're experiencing. But I think in terms of encouraging somebody to stick with erp, it highlights something important about compassion because you may assume that if somebody's distressed, then the compassionate response would be to reduce their distress. Simple. So if they're. If they're having a hard time, reduce it. But in the context of erp, it's a really, really interesting example because if I was to say, do you know what? I can see this is hard for you. Let's do something else instead. Although it might reduce their distress, it wouldn't be compassionate. You know, compassion is about doing what's helpful. And I guess in the context of erp, what's often helpful in that situation is saying to somebody, you're doing really well. You know, let's. Let's see if we can do it for a bit longer. Let's see if we can stay with this, or let's use our ACT skills. Let's like drop anchor and sort of, you know, recommit to the committed action. But probably the most compassionate thing you could do in that example is not to take away the distress, but to give somebody the opportunity to sort of learn that they can tolerate it and that they can manage it.
- [33:13]
Stuart Ralph
Yeah, that's a good answer. And yeah, it's a good illustration of. Yeah, as you say, the. In theory, the compassionate bit would be to take. Take the foot off the gas. But actually it's keep going. Because sometimes compassion is firm. It's strong, but it's caring. And. Yeah, no, sorry, it's probably a badly worded question for me. I meant more just like the kind of, you're doing great. Keep going. I'm so impressed. You know, it's amazing. Like, you know, that kind of subjective.
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Alex Havens
Absolutely, yeah. And again, you know, I think when, you know, going back to the question about how to sort of integrate CFT is I think when. When you practice in CFT as a therapist, you're mindful, I guess, always about kind of your own compassion and sort of how you demonstrate that in the session, you know, So I think probably, you know, investing in that, you know, really kind of placing compassion at the core of how you work is going. Impact on your tone, your presence in the relationship in the session. And there's definitely stereotypes about CBT and things like behavioral therapies like erp, that it's kind of like cold and harsh. And I think what ACT and CFT do really well is they demonstrate that it doesn't have to be. That it doesn't have to be somebody sat at right angles with a clipboard, not engaging emotionally with the client. I think, think, you know, it's. It's absolutely a Good idea to deliver things like ERP sensitively and. And with warmth and. And with compassion and. And, you know, I'm saying that I think it's a negative stereotype about cbt. In my experience of supervising CBT therapists, yeah, you know, they absolutely recognize the importance of, like, warmth and, you know, empathy and. And that encouragement. But there is that stereotype, isn't there, of the.
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Stuart Ralph
Absolutely.
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Alex Havens
The very kind of cold clinical behaviorist.
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Stuart Ralph
Yeah, well, I think it's there because it does happen. Right. I don't think it's everyone. And I think a lot of CBT ERP therapists are deeply compassionate individuals and will bring compassion in during exposures. But it's just those odd cases where they are, you know, pure behaviorists and ignoring all the other stuff, and then people get a real bad taste for erp.
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Alex Havens
Yes, but it's not.
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Stuart Ralph
Oh, yeah, it's worth stressing. I don't think it's the majority.
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Alex Havens
I don't think it is the majority. But you're right. There is a. I can remember, you know, when I started particularly incorporating ACT into doing erp, I had that anxiety of almost, but what if what I'm doing is a distraction or is having an impact on the client's distress? So there is this kind of message in pure behavioral approaches that the therapist needs to almost be kind of sat back and allowing the client to just sort of fully experience the distress. Personally, I think it's possible to do that in a way that still feels kind and supportive. Again, it comes back to the idea that in a situation where somebody's suffering, the compassionate response is the one that is helpful. So, you know, distracting people from the things that they need to experience and confront wouldn't be compassionate. So, yeah, I think, again, it's probably about anyone who works with ocd. I'm pretty confident that everybody who you allowed on the podcast will agree that ERP is an important part of that. But again, it's. It's about the kind of how you do it. You know, the. What it feels like for the client, the kind of environment that you create, whether you're able to create a kind of safe, compassionate relationship within which the client feels able to. To do that challenging work. And, you know, like I was saying before about my own therapy, I was only able to do ERP because I felt that. I felt that kind of confidence and that trust in the therapist I was working with, and he was very compassionate and also had an interest in compassion focused therapy. So, again, I think that's been a Big part of my inspiration in terms of the way I approach this work.
- [37:51]
Stuart Ralph
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's. Yeah, yeah. Great. So, you know, maybe just towards the end, we've got, you know, at the center, you're, you and Amy are running a group, people with OCD on cft. And then also you are, along with, Johnny says, sort of co hosting it, but you're leading it, a training for therapists on CBT for ocd. Do you just want to talk about those briefly?
- [38:16]
Alex Havens
Yeah, yeah. Great. Yeah. So, yeah, like you say, the new group that Amy and I are developing is called Cultivating Compassion in OCD Recovery. There has been, you know, a very limited amount of OCD group work that's specifically for people with ocd. But this is, this is, as far as I'm aware, is kind of first of its, its kind in terms of focusing on using Cultivating Compassion to support people through OCD recovery. So this might be people who are in therapy, people who are considering therapy, but it might also be people who've had therapy who are in kind of longer term recovery. And it's about coming together as a group and working together to think about how being more compassionate toward one another and more self compassionate can support them in their recovery. So Amy and I got together
- [39:16]
Stuart Ralph
a
- [39:16]
Alex Havens
few weeks ago and we're starting to sort of, you know, we're getting to the point where we've finished developing the group and we're both really excited about it. So we're hoping to launch that later this year and get that up and running. I'm really excited about that. And then, yeah, the training that we're running, as you say, with Johnny Tsay through the Integrative center for OCD Therapy, that's on Friday the 26th of June. And that's therapist training. So that's training for therapists who may be working with OCD or other common anxiety disorders and they're interested in integrating CFT into their work. So in some of the kinds of ways that we were discussing earlier. And I'm very grateful to have Jonny there, not least because Johnny's got a really strong grasp on some of the ways that people with OCD can struggle with compassion and compassion focused therapy. So Jonny's going to be talking about some of the additional things that we need to think about when we're using Compassion Focused Therapy, you know, with OCD clients who, you know, as, you know, there's a risk with any intervention that OCD kind of gets a hold of it and it becomes, you know, compulsive or, you know, it becomes difficult for them. So I'm hoping that's going to be really helpful in terms of helping clinicians to think about how CFT can benefit their work with OCD and also kind of understanding and avoiding some of the potential pitfalls. So, yeah, really excited about that as well.
- [41:05]
Stuart Ralph
Brilliant. Yeah. And I'll put links in the show notes, this episode on all of that. Yeah. And I'm glad we're doing more CFT at the center. It's, it's, it's, again, it's not a replacement for any of the therapies, but it's a nice addition and it's great to put those options out into the world so people can add another string to their recovery bow, so to speak.
- [41:25]
Alex Havens
Yeah.
- [41:27]
Stuart Ralph
So is there anything else on compassion you wanted to say? Cft?
- [41:34]
Alex Havens
I don't think so. I guess for me it's been a really important aspect to my recovery. It's been about recognizing that OCD was, if you like, kind of on the surface, but I think for a lot of, similar to a lot of people that I've worked with, with ocd, kind of underneath that was this sense of, you know, that there's something wrong with me, you know, and I have to, I have to address, I have to find out what it is and I have to fix it. And when the OCD showed up, it was like, maybe this is it. Maybe this is what, what's been wrong with me. And I hear so many clients saying similar things and for me, learning to turn towards, I suppose that kind of that shame, that sense of not being good enough and beginning to just question that, beginning to think, well, would you speak to somebody else like this? Would you say this to a friend? Would you say this to somebody that you cared about? And I guess being confronted with that, what's the word? The kind of contrast between how compassionate I was towards other people and how completely, you know, kind of hostile and punishing I was being towards myself. So I guess that's what I'd like to say is if there's, if there's people listening to this who, in addition to, you know, their ocd, who experience feelings of shame or maybe a very hostile inner critic, is to consider looking into compassion, focused therapy and things like mindful self compassion in the States as a way to just begin getting curious about that and exploring that, for me, it was a game changer.
- [43:29]
Stuart Ralph
Yeah, I like that. And if you could pick up the phone and call the 20 year old, you, what would you tell Him.
- [43:37]
Alex Havens
Wow. I think I would challenge him with that. I think I would say, think about the way that you speak to yourself and question, would you ever speak to anybody else like that and kind of confront the 20 year old version of me with the possibility that there could be another option? You know, I don't think at that age, I don't think I'd ever even considered that I could have like a warmer, more. More caring, more sort of loving relationship with, with myself. It was, it was kind of a. It was, it was nothing like that. So I think that's what I'd want to. I'd want to kind of invite him to reflect on, you know, what would it be like to speak to yourself like you speak to people that you care about?
- [44:38]
Stuart Ralph
Yeah. Yeah, I like that. And then you got a billboard where you live. What do you want written on that billboard?
- [44:50]
Alex Havens
Have a cup of tea and try again.
- [44:52]
Stuart Ralph
Yeah, I like it. I like it. And then, yeah, lastly, anything else you wish you could have said or shared today?
- [45:02]
Alex Havens
No, I don't think so. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a nice opportunity to reflect on kind of where I'm up to and on what makes me so passionate about this work. So, yeah, thank you very much for having me.
- [45:16]
Stuart Ralph
Yeah, nice. Good to have you on. And like, you did a training, internal training for our other therapists recently and you were obviously brilliant at that on cft. So it's great to have you here on the episode. Thank you, thank you for listening to this week's podcast and thank you to our Patreons who helped make this episode possible. And if you would like to find out more about Patreon and the rewards and benefits, then there will be a link in the episode description. If you enjoy the OCD Stories podcast and would like to support us, please subscribe and rate the show wherever you listen to the podcast. And thank you to NOCD for supporting our work. If you want to find out more about nocd, you can click the link in the episode description and quick disclaimer. Guys, this podcast is not therapy. It is not a replacement for therapy. Please seek treatment from a trained professional and until we speak, take care.