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The OCD Stories
Justin Hughes, Valerie Andrews, Dr Alan Noble, and Chelsea Risko: A Deeper Dive into the role of faith (Christianity) in OCD treatment (#487)
00:57:30
In episode 487 I chat with Justin Hughes, Valerie Andrews, Dr Alan Noble, and Chelsea Risko. We discuss how OCD can latch on to faith, scrupulosity, finding the line between compulsive prayer and valued prayer, exposure and response prevention...
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- [00:00]
A
You're listening to the OCD Stories podcast hosted by me, Stuart Ralph. The OCD Stories is a podcast dedicated to raising awareness and understanding around obsessive compulsive symptoms. I do this through interviewing inspired therapists, psychologists and people who have experienced OCD. Welcome to the OCD stories and welcome to episode 487 of the podcast. And in this one I chat with Justin Hughes, Valerie Andrews, Dr. Alan Noble and Chelsea Risco. In particular, we talk about faith and OCD and their faith, which is Christianity. And in this episode we discuss how OCD can latch onto faith scrupulosity, finding the line between compulsive prayer and valued prayer, exposure response prevention therapy, inference based cognitive behavioural therapy, how faith was a support for them, worrying about therapy and faith, working with a non faith based counselor, words of hope and much more. So regardless of your faith, I think you'll probably get a lot from this episode. Although obviously does heavily center on Christianity. I do have another episode lined up with a psychologist expert in his own faith, which is completely different to Christianity. So wait and see what that is. That'll be out in a few months time, but until then I think this will hopefully add something to you. OCD can feel overwhelming, but help is closer than you think. NOCD provides expert led evidence based therapy for children and adults affected by ocd. With convenient online therapy from licensed specialised therapists and real time support between sessions, NOCD makes getting the right treatment easier than ever. Start your journey today@nocd.com or the link will be in the episode description. So thank you to Justin for helping me organize this. Justin's a therapist, he's been on the podcast many times before. And thank you to Valerie, Alan and Chelsea for your time and stories. I deeply appreciate it. And thank you to you guys for listening. You know, it means a lot to me. Without further ado, here they are. Welcome to the podcast. Alan, Valerie, Chelsea and Justin.
- [02:14]
B
Thanks Stu. It's so great to be here.
- [02:17]
A
Yeah, it's good to have you guys on. So let's jump into it. So faith and OCD is the topic today, obviously specifically Christianity and ocd. Although if you want to keep it more broad, that's cool too. So I guess initially, Justin, if you could just give us a brief overview over how OCD kind of operates and why faith related OCD such as scrupulosity can be particularly distressing. And just anything you want to say to get this topic going?
- [02:46]
B
Absolutely. Well, so the current model of cognitive behavioral therapy sees OCD from the standpoint of Intrusive, unwanted thoughts, urges, images, impulses. And I'm a little bit looser with that and say, basically any unwanted internal stimuli. My researchers don't probably appreciate that. But basically, any thought, any feeling can come up in an intrusive way. And of course, compulsions are these attempts to alleviate distress. To be a disorder, it has to be impairing, significantly impactful and debilitating. And so from a larger world standpoint, there's a lot of minimization, especially if a person doesn't understand the many different themes, many different subtypes, many different types of ways that they can understand. Of course, that obsessions can exist, not the least of which is through mental rituals that show up in the compulsions. But of course, fears of harming other people or having a baby and concern that they might drown their baby. Xyz. So many different examples. And so it need not surprise us when we actually dig into the details that it's going to start to affect faith, spirituality, religious belief. And so that's the simplest way that I know how to put it is that that's exactly what it is. It's just another example of the variety of things that we think about that are important to us, but also that there are potential threats involved.
- [04:28]
A
Yeah, good answer. Good answer, Justin. And I guess to everyone else, before you answer the next question, if you could also just introduce yourself, which I should have asked you to do at the beginning. So my bad. But, yeah, if you could do that and just share why you think OCD for people of faith, why it latches onto their faith quite a lot. And maybe if you've got OCD in your experience, why, maybe you feel it did that for you. And I'll let you jump in. I won't pick anyone.
- [05:03]
C
Well, good morning. This is Valerie. I think I'm the CEO, as I like to call it, my nonprofit, Ms. Mabel Sparrows, which is a nonprofit designed for women of faith, color and age, which leads to me. But as far as OCD and latching onto faith has been my experience for myself, I think it's because faith is such an important part of my life. You know, growing up steeped in the culture of religion from a little girl. My grandfather, in fact, used to be the Sunday school bus driver, and we were always picked up by first. So I believe for myself is because my OCD knows that I love the Lord and that, you know, Jesus is important to me. And so it is the number one priority of my life. And OCD knows that and attacks it. So for me Personally, I believe that's why my OCD and faith always claps, simply because of my love for the Lord.
- [06:23]
A
Yeah, yeah. Matters to you. Yeah. Thank you.
- [06:29]
D
So my name is Alan Noble, and for me, my, my OCD themes tend to have to do around a fear of, of negligence, of neglecting to care for others, and themes around that. And so for me, faith shows up with this tendency to want to pray for wisdom or discernment or checking a compulsion to, to make sure that I've done enough, that I've been wise enough, that I've been thorough enough, that I've. So it, it gets wrapped up in my compulsions. And, and my faith is important in that way too, because I do believe that praying for wisdom when making ethical decisions is a reasonable and prudent thing to do. And so I don't want to discount that. But the problem is it crosses this line over into a compulsion where I'm doing this for hours a day, and that's where I have to draw the line. Um, and that's what I've learned in my, my journey over 17 years.
- [07:49]
A
Yeah, thank you for sharing, Alan. Um, and Chelsea.
- [07:53]
E
Yeah, my name is Chelsea. Um, you'll find me on Instagram as the OCD girly. And I thank you for the hype up. Um, I think for me, my faith, I've never actually felt like scrupulosity has been like one of my main themes. My main themes have been harmful self harm, specifically. It's been. Honestly, at this point, I think I've experienced everything truly. Like, I can go through the list. And so for me, with faith, it has been me navigating it as someone who believes that God can remove these thorns in our sides or we can pray away things. Right? And that's what I've been told in church sometimes and well meaning friends and family. Um, but I have actually experienced fully crying out to God, asking him to remove OCD from my life. And when it doesn't magically go away because I am clinically diagnosed with this mental illness, then OCD tries to jump in and be like, oh man, that stinks. Look, God's not even there. And then it turns into, you know, a taste of that scrupulosity. And so really for me, it's been carrying both the reality of the science of my diagnosis and how my faith can be part of how I navigate this for my life. And so a lot of my time is spent in prayer, but also avoiding compulsive prayer, which I've been able to find the line between luckily in my time in recovery and really just leaning into my values, of course being Christian, focused on Jesus, focused on God and still believing that he can help me through this. But I finally have gotten to a place of letting go that he may or may not ever take this away from me. And I have to believe that there's a purpose in that. Like being on this podcast today.
- [09:47]
A
Nice, nice. Thank you.
- [09:49]
B
One thing I wanted to say too, if that's okay, is that stinks. God isn't even there. A lot of times people, especially on the outside, that don't understand, and even clinicians as well, how faith plays into this, is that that's a very human thing. That's not per se an OCD thing. It certainly can be that stinks. God isn't even there. But that's very much a. For those that are familiar, the psalms in the Bible, David crying out, why have you forsaken me? Which actually Jesus said on the cross. So it's. I love Chelsea that you emphasize the fact that it's wasn't necessarily even scrupulosity. This is a much bigger thing.
- [10:32]
A
Absolutely. And, and I think you mentioned that Chelsea, about finding the difference between prayer or values based prayer versus like compulsive prayer and ocd. So I guess to, to you, Chelsea, and everyone, if you want to answer it, like, how do you find that line? Because I imagine compulsive prayer becomes such a key compulsion in religious OCD or even anyone with faith and ocd.
- [10:59]
E
Yeah. So what I do is I message people like Justin on Instagram and I. No, I'm just kidding. That is what I did at the beginning of my recovery. I would find people who claim to be Christians on Instagram and I'd be like, how do I know? How do I know? How do I know when it's prayer that's true and when it's compulsive? And luckily none of those people gave me reassurance. Instead I had to go through it on my own and really figure out the, the purpose and the function of the prayer for me. And that's something that I think one of the johns in the community, one of our great johns in the community, Hirschfeld or someone said, you know, how do you tell the difference between a compulsion and just you doing your best in life and trying to, you know, cope with things. And he said, if it's you trying to make it go away, that's probably a good signs compulsion. If it's you trying to cope so that you can get through it versus get over it. That's when you can kind of tell that it's more values based. And so I've been able to find the difference of how I show up to my prayers. And so if I'm able to come in and just be like, God, thank you for today, that's usually a good sign to me that I'm not doing a compulsive prayer. If I go straight into, hey, God, can you please take this away? Because I don't know how to do this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and everything's gonna be terrible. I can catch myself and hear that voice in myself and, oh, I think I'm showing up in a compulsive way right now. And I'm going to give myself the past to say prayer is not the right option right this second. I'll come back when I can come to God in a way that's true to my values.
- [12:35]
A
Yeah, nice.
- [12:36]
D
Nice for me. You know, as I said earlier, my theme has to do these feelings of negligence that I've done something wrong in the past, and I need to check and make sure that I haven't. And I want to go back and check. And so I'm often praying, praying for wisdom about whether I need to go back and check or whether or not I've done something terrible. And so that's the compulsion. And so part of my journey has been I spent six years in talk therapy with a really kind woman who was doing her best, but had no idea how to help with OCD and actually made my OCD considerably worse because she was giving me reassurance. And then I discovered somebody on Twitter who reached out to me for another reason, who had read one of my books and said it just happened to be an OCD expert in Oklahoma City, where I live. And that connected me. And I started getting ERP treatment. And that was life changing, but it didn't quite get me to where I needed to be. And then I started icbt. And that's been life changing, getting me to. From severe to really to, you know, not even registering most days. And part of that ICBT work has been getting to the place where I recognize that when I'm. When I'm checking, when I'm examining a situation, I check once and I pray once and look for direct evidence, and then I trust myself and the wisdom God's given me, and then I move on. And any prayers after that about wisdom is going to be a compulsion. And so that's what I can trust. And so learning to trust myself and Trust that God would give me wisdom. And this is a biblical principle. God says he'll give you wisdom if you pray for it. And if you doubt that wisdom, then you. You shouldn't be doubting that wisdom. You know, you can trust that God will give you wisdom if you pray for it. And part of my problem was I was constantly doubting and doubting. And as we know, doubt feeds doubt, and you just get into these cycles. And so ICBT has really been helping me learn to trust my sense, my inner senses, which is that. That God has given me wisdom, and I can trust that and then move forward with my life.
- [15:19]
A
Yeah. Interesting. And, Valerie, anything I was going to.
- [15:24]
C
Say for myself, I really have not struggled with that part of the ocd, with repeating prayers, but I have struggled in my Christian walk with doubt, understand, not understanding, you know, why me, God? I remember having an experience similar to what Chelsea was talking about, where I was having a really bad day and I went on a walk, and, you know, I'm crying and I'm like, you know, God, I'm not one of these people that could say, why not me? I'm questioning, you know, why can you remove this from me? And instantly in my spirit, I got, my grace is sufficient. But he went on to say, now that you have this, how are you going to use it to glorify me? And so that has really helped me along my walk when I have, you know, my bad days, to remember who I am, whose I am, and that this is the cross that he has given me to bear. And so it makes it a little easier to bear the cross. And even though there's times I'm dragging across, but ultimately when I put all those things together and knowing that, you know, God loves us and he's in control of my life and all of those things, it has helped me from doing all that repetition about having doubt, you know, am I, you know, good enough, Kristen? Why can't I pray it away, all of those things? And that's more where my walk has been when it comes to OCD and faith.
- [17:12]
A
Yeah, brilliant. Good answers, guys. And Valerie, you were kind of talking about it there, but I guess I wanted to ask you. Well, I guess I'll start with, you know, I've got a friend who's. Who's a Christian, and he. He's been going for his own kind of struggles recently, not ocd, something completely different. And, and definitely in those moments of darkness and despair, people can obviously question their faith, which is natural. But I guess on. On the, the Flip side of that is how. How has faith been a support in. In all of it? Like, were there moments where you did get that clarity, that insight, or you, you know, gave you the courage to continue? Just how is your various faiths kind of kept you going, so to speak?
- [18:01]
C
Well, again, for me, I know once I allowed myself a couple of things to realize that having OCD or being sick is not sin. It's a human experience that we all get here, that it has allowed me to move forward easier in my OCD walk when it comes to faith and just being remindful that during my hard times, we have an advocate, you know, and I've recently been telling myself I have an advocate because I have an accuser and I can't handle this on my own. So I try to be remindful to always go back to him, you know, even though, like I said, I failed miserably, you know, during my life, it's been a long time to get from point A to point B. You know, I don't want to make it seem like I'm some super Christian or whatever. This has been a long journey of just hanging on by, you know, a thread. But I always try to remember that he's still walking with me and to lay it back at his feet as much as I can. And that's kind of what has helped me.
- [19:21]
A
Thank you.
- [19:23]
E
Yeah. That made me think about how. I recently posted a Reel that talked about how there's maybe a very small part of me that almost thanks OCD for being here because of how resilient I've become. And a lot of people got on there and, like, absolutely not. And I'm like, I get it. I get that OCD feels like the end of life. And I know that there's a very real risk to that for people who really believe that it can't get better and make decisions. And that's heartbreaking to me, and I don't want to dismiss that. But for me, I believe that OCD truly has made me into a more resilient, kind, empathetic, patient person. I think that it's changed how I show up in life for people. And so when I look at that, it makes me feel like there is a purpose to this. And so it doesn't feel so heavy. It feels like, you know what? This is terrible. I would not wish this on the worst person in the world. Like, I would never wish this on my enemy. I would never wish this experience on someone because it is torturous. But what I've seen on the other side of it is the fruit of it, which is to me, like I said that that ability to face really hard things in life, it honestly, like, I'm like, hey, if I've done ocd, throw whatever at me, God, like, I can, I can handle this. And so for me, my integration of how I move through life with my faith is this has grown my faith to a point where I'm not afraid of what happens in my life. I feel like I have done my own work and have really relied on God to get me to a place where I'm prepared for whatever may happen in this crazy world and I can show up and still be kind and still be loving and still be who I am and be the person I want to be to others. In fact, sharing my story openly and having people in my own small circle be like, you know what? I think I'm going to look into an OCD diagnosis. And then they get it and they're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I've lived my life like this. And again, just another reminder of, for me and my faith, there's purpose behind everything. And when I see that, it strengthens my faith and it continues. It helps me continue moving forward in. Strengthen that.
- [21:50]
D
So for me, you know, in icbt, they, they talk about this feared possible self. This, this, this part of you that you're. You're terrified that you could become. That is the driver behind the kinds of compul. The kinds of, of intrusive thoughts that you have. So for me, my feared possible self is, Is being a negligent and bad person. And at my core, that's what I'm. That's what I'm most afraid of becoming. I'm deeply afraid that I'm a bad person at my core, that I'm a negligent bad person. And my faith has been a powerful way of responding to this because. And we've worked through this in therapy. This has been how I've responded to that accusation. That. And it is an accusation that I am a fundamentally bad person, neglectful person. I've been able to recognize that actually, fundamentally, when God looks at me, he sees the righteousness of his son, and that's who I am before God, is a loved, beloved son of God. And that reframes. It doesn't make all the, you know, the intrusive thoughts magically go away, of course. Right. It's not, it's not. Doesn't work like that thing, unfortunately, but. But it does help. It does help reframe my thinking about, about who I fundamentally am before God. Right. And it also, it also helps me to realize that I'm a forgiven person, that God has forgiven me. So whatever mistakes I do make when I am negligent, because I'm going to be negligent at some point or another because I am human, God is going to forgive me and that, that is okay if I, if I, if I repent and I, you know, I'm going to be forgiven and that is okay. And so those truths seeping down into my bones, there's just something about, there's something about me that, that, that, that resists those truths. And so part of my recovery has been learning to just let those truths seep down into my bones. And that has been, you know, powerful in my recovery process.
- [24:25]
A
Yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah. I think the message of Jesus is of love and compassion. Right. And I think that that's the blessing of having maybe a belief in Jesus and Christianity is when doing compassion based work in therapy, you've got that, that scripture which is talking about compassion and it's saying you've already been forgiven. So it kind of doesn't matter what you've done, there's already love and forgiveness and so you can kind of lean on that. As someone of faith, which I like. Yeah. And Justin, any thoughts on any of that?
- [25:04]
B
So many. I just, I just want my friends here to speak because one of the pieces that's most important in that I hear from clients, so I'll speak towards the clinical side here is to connect with another person. So in our churches and especially down here in Texas where Oklahoma, where Alan is not as much, maybe Chelsea and Idaho a little bit Valerie and Washington, but we have, our mid sized churches are thousands sometimes. And that means there are a lot of people and if our best estimates are about two to three out of a hundred that in their lifetime will experience ocd, it's really significant. And yet I meet clients every single week who tell me they don't know a single other person. And once they're in this, once they've understood what OCD is and how it affects their life and they get into treatment, they can be a year or two years into the process and still say I've still, I haven't heard of anybody share their story. So I think that that's so important. And one thing that, that links back to, I think both in the stories here today, the clinical and also the theological, is that it's just really poor theology for Christians to not acknowledge OCD and the pain and the suffering. And I'll share a scripture that it says in Matthew 4:24 that Jesus fame spread. And it says that they brought to him all the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, those oppressed by demons, those having seizures and paralytics, and he healed them. If scriptures were only trying to emphasize some really heady, esoteric spiritual focus as the only thing that's really important, it wouldn't even emphasize the fact that there are various diseases and pains and suffering. And so when we bring these things together, I just. One of the things, I don't need to be loud about it, but the thing that I want to be simple and repetitive and gracious and kind in reminding people towards is whether the church or outside of the church or in the office or whether you're of faith or not, that there's this thing that really messes with life and it follows very specific, predictable, expectable patterns.
- [27:31]
C
And.
- [27:32]
B
And there's also really effective treatments and hope for most. Last thing that I'll say too, about effective treatments and hope for most. Most people know that I'm a big fan of erp. That's what I'm trained in, cognitive behavioral therapy. But I really like the diversity of the sharing here is Alan is blown open the box a little bit of his very positive experience with icbt. It's just a really good reminder to keep going. He tried the ERP first, and he was one of those 20 to 25% of people that tried it, actually tried it and didn't get the expected benefit. Okay, well, that's why we have a lot of things. We have medication, we have cognitive therapy with behavioral experiments. We have act acceptance and commitment. And so this back to my original thought with this. It's not against anything clinically, it's not against a person's faith and definitely not against Christian faith to say there will be suffering and we can actually glory in that suffering. Because on the other side is what Chelsea was talking about, this bigger growth and endurance and character that's developed as a result of it. And all of this can work together so perfectly. Though on the outside it can seem like it, it doesn't.
- [28:52]
A
Good answer. Yeah. And I'm glad you highlighted, you know, Alan said about ICBT and as you say, the positive experience you've had. Alan, it's awesome to hear that and in detail. So. But got a quick question on. On ERP specifically, because I imagine in some ways ERP may not clash with people's faith, but they may worry it clashes with their faith maybe more than even ICBT does. Because you know what, I'm as if I'm asked to do an exposure that somewhat breaches my values or God will be displeased by or whatever it is. So I guess just for you to speak to that and anyone else on the call if they've got any thoughts on that. And then also if ERP can be reframed as some sort of spiritual practice, even that maybe brings one closer to their faith.
- [29:45]
B
Yeah, I'm cheering for those who can't see the video. I'm pumping my fists. I'm definitely the hype crew here too. Too much energy at this. It's 7am here, some of the crew, it's 5ish a.m. but thank you anyway. Thank you, Stu. So, yeah, as to exposure, yes. And first of all, that's. I think that that's the initial hesitation period with exposure. Will this desensitize me towards something I shouldn't be desensitized towards? Will this violate my faith? And so, yes, it does show up a lot in some of those questions. And we know through the research that those who are specifically in terms of research, high on religious practice, high religiosity, that doesn't cause scrupulosity, but people who are high in scrupulosity are high in religiosity. So it means that practically people are showing up in the office and really having a lot more questions about can I do exposures where I've currently landed in explaining this. There's a lot of ways to explain it, but my favorite way of looking at it is it's the pursuit of what is true and what is present and what is in reality. This is why cultural competence is so needed for us as clinicians and at the level of the International OCD Foundation. I'm on the Faith and OCD Action Council. Valerie is as well used to be called the Task force. And it's the just the basic competency is really, really crucial and it can be lacking on the faith and religious side. So with exposures, we have to know, like, what is going to be something that overtly violates someone's beliefs and values, such as, no, no therapist worldwide needs to be asking a Christian with Orthodox beliefs to be screaming out blasphemous statements at God. It would be like me going to a client who's Orthodox Jewish and saying, okay, just, just have that cheeseburger. And they say, no. Wait, what? No. Like, maybe they're afraid of walking in restaurants that sell cheeseburgers and their exposure might be to walk into the establishment, but that, that would typically be a violation. So exposures are to never violate values and supportable beliefs, you know, hopefully based on doctrine, which is why we have to get into those details and ask at least a few questions to understand it. But I, I see it as reality and facing up to just what is true. Because a lot of the time we don't have to go any further or I don't have to go any further with clients than to be able to verbalize what exactly it is going on in their thought process. And the problem is that they're ruminating and getting stuck and doing the compulsions and checking and confessing and seeking reassurance. And so with these really unwanted things, such as the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a classic one, but it can be others. Issues of conscience, making a vow to God. Did I vow to God? I was walking one day and I'm like, lord, I'll move for you. Maybe that person hears a missionary sharing a church or something and then they just think like, lord, may it be unto me. And oh my goodness, did I just pray the prayer of Mary, may it be unto me? Or did I actually vow to God and the person will get caught up in that doubt? Well, exposure isn't of course going to necessarily say, all right buddy, time to pack your bags, it's time to go to the mission field. Exposure is going to be, what is that? That fear that's there that they're trying to seek relief for. And so exposure is just this truth seeking journey of can I call it out? Can I sit with it? Can I write it down? Can I say it without doing whatever the compulsion is? And it can be way, way more simple than people ever think. And a lot of exposures end up being way easier than a person ever thought it would be.
- [34:27]
A
Yeah, good answer, good answer. Anyone else got anything to add to that?
- [34:33]
E
I'm going to go ahead and jump in just because part of my story also includes my recovery journey, starting with accidentally stumbling upon no CD online and getting matched with a therapist remotely. Because, as Justin mentioned, I live in Idaho. There is not a large OCD community here. There are not OCD providers. And so one part of my journey also included can I trust this therapist who might not be a Christian to guide me through this process correctly? And that was a big hurdle for me, was I remember researching, how do I find an OCD therapist who is Christian? And it's like, that's not really how this works. So I had to, again, accept what was given to me, which was a therapist I was able to connect with. She lived in Montana. I lived in Idaho. We did all of our sessions remote.
- [35:23]
A
And.
- [35:24]
E
And speaking of these exposures, I did some really hard exposures. Specifically, I was working through self harm, which in the Christian community can be a debated topic about what that sin can really mean and if it's a sin at all. I mean, there's a lot of discussion about that, about what suicide. And again, probably a trigger warning here would mean as a Christian. And she had me writing scripts. She had me writing how I might do it. She had me, um, listening to recordings, watching movies. And so there was kind of this. This fear of, well, if this is this very intense sin, quote, unquote, what does that mean? If I'm doing exposures around that? And what I found is that God has a lot of grace for this. What I reminded myself is God knows I have ocd. Like, I believe that God knows that that's part of my story. He knows that I am doing my best to navigate through it. And I believe that he puts the right people and things in place to help me. So when my therapist has asked me to write a suicide letter, I lean in because I believe in the people who did the research to figure out the ERP could work and does work, the people who have done the time to make sure that it is a reputable resource. And it, to me, it. It was the thing. For me, ERP was the golden ticket, if you will, for my recovery. And so doing those hard things, like Justin was saying, my therapist never asked me to do anything that would have gone against my belief system. When I shared that with her, even her not being a Christian and moving forward, not having Christian, you know, I even have a therapist now who I very clearly keep my OCD things in one box and my talk therapy things in another box, because I know that not all clinicians are. Are ready to, or even taught really to. To handle ocd. And so even with her, she's not Christian either. And for me, it's almost an exposure in itself of being like, oh, my gosh, what if I get misled? What if this. But what I've learned and what I want to advocate for while I have this opportunity is you don't have to have a Christian therapist to do the work that God has for you. And while it would be helpful to have, you know, shared dialogue, to be able to pray together, maybe if that's appropriate in your relationship with Your therapist. It isn't what needs to happen for you to get into recovery for ocd.
- [37:55]
A
Good point.
- [37:57]
C
Just to add to that, I think for me, one of my biggest regrets is taking so long to allow myself to researching and be part of erp because I think it's so important that we know culturally a person's background. I will be 69 in a few days. I grew up in a black community. Going to church was the norm. And you bring all of those to you in your walk with your ocd. For me, I think I struggle most with feeling that I was outsourcing or resourcing Jesus by going to therapy, that I was saying, hey, you know, what's wrong with myself? Why can't I pray it away? Why am I too stressed to be blessed? All of that stuff that we learn traditionally, culturally, I had to address and say I had to separate the two. That going to seek a therapist that had knowledge about OCD was not saying I didn't love or trust Jesus. It was just saying that I'm going to a professional. Just like I wouldn't go to my therapist and ask him a question about my relationship with God. But it took me a moment to separate those two. Only because of all the tradition, all the stigma, all the life experiences that we bring to the table. It had me stuck because I think I was more worried about what people thought of me going to a therapist and doing exposure preventive therapy, that.
- [40:01]
B
I.
- [40:01]
C
Stopped doing it or I wouldn't allow myself to think about it. And that's a bad place to be. And I think. Excuse me. I think it's simply because we grow up with all of this junk. We grow up, the church is not up to date, in a sense, in modern medicine or being more open, we draw that line, us versus them. And I got stuck in between that middle. But ERP basically allowed me to move from point A all the way down, I want to say, to point S. You know, it was such a big factor, but it remains one of my biggest regrets. And it took me years, literally years to allow myself to think, okay, I'm not turning my back on Jesus.
- [40:57]
A
Yeah, really good point. And Alan, anything? Oh, Justin.
- [41:02]
E
Yeah, I.
- [41:03]
B
So one thing too, Valerie. As you said, it wasn't that I didn't love or trust Jesus. It's precisely because you loved and trusted Jesus that you've. You've done these things. And I think that that needs to be really emphasized because we're still in this realm where a lot of times, as, I mean, even just the OCD stories. It's a, it's a great example that a lot of what it does is gets the word out and educates and helps to provide a defensible rationale for getting help and solutions and so forth. And so so often I think a lot of times we still have to almost be like on the defensive versus one of the things that I'm starting to see a little bit and I'm wanting to shift is not necessarily go on the offensive in an aggressive sense, but to be as assertive as Valerie's story is that she needs not defend anything about loving or trusting Jesus with getting to know her, that it's precisely because she loves and trusts Jesus that she, she is where she is and obviously the faithfulness of our, our God.
- [42:15]
E
So.
- [42:16]
A
Yeah, yeah, really, really good point. And Alan, I think you wanted to add something.
- [42:22]
D
Yeah, I was just going to say just second what Chelsea and Valerie said that, that you know, having worked with, with two really good ERP therapists, one of the, one of my fears coming in, one of those therapists was explicitly a Christian therapist and the next one I worked with, I don't actually know what her beliefs were and that was a bit concerning for me and it turned out to be fine. And one of the things when I meet because I've written a few articles on my, my journey with OCD and so people do reach out and talk to me about it and one of the things that I really encourage Christians to do is not worry about the fact that their therapist like Chelsea said, is not a, not a Christian. If they're a good therapist, they should be able to do good ERP and help you. And if they ask you to do things that are opposed to your deeply held beliefs, as Justin said, then that's when you need to find a different therapist. But that just did not come up. I had a great experience with, just didn't quite get me to the place where I needed to be. I was still deeply stuck. But, but the ERP was, was, was good. It, it didn't conflict with my faith and I was very pleased with that.
- [44:02]
C
Yeah.
- [44:03]
A
Yeah. Worth clarifying Alan. And yeah, I think I'm kind of blanking here. It'll come back to me in a second. Yeah, I think it's a, it's a common problem in OCD generally when finding a physical therapists that, you know, I co run a center and we get lots of referrals come in and sometimes they're asking for very specific types of therapists. Maybe it's like Someone who's a specialist in relationship OCD or some other theme. And it's like, you don't need this. You need a competent therapist. You know, you don't need the. I understand why you're looking for that. I once also wanted that when I was struggling. You don't need it. And I mean, it's the same in faith. It's great. If you can find someone like Justin who's really well versed in scripture and in OCD treatment, that's awesome. But I don't think it's necessary. It's a plus, so. But people get stuck for four years sometimes, you know, being very indecisive, sitting on the fence of which therapist do I go with? Because they want to get it right. But in reality, you've just lost two more years of your life to ocd, which is such a shame. So, yeah, it's good that you guys have shared that, so. Oh, yeah. And also just maybe to iterate what you said and what Alan said, a good therapist should be accepting of all faiths. Even if, you know they don't agree with a particular religion, they should still be able to work with you as an individual, as a sovereign human being and want the best for you. That's what good therapist does. They don't need to agree with your beliefs to care for you. So, yeah, for any Christians or even just people generally of faith struggling with ocd, what's the one message that you'd want them to hear based on your experiences? He wants to jump in that there.
- [46:02]
C
Is hope that we are always a member of the flock. Even though sometimes I know I've sat in those pews feeling like the lost sheep, you know, like the night, the 1 out of 99 that they had to go rescue. And that wasn't a good feeling. I think it's important for people to know I do see things getting better. I don't want, you know, my story to be all the negative to things with the church because I've had a very good experience once I allowed myself, and oftentimes it wasn't by choice. It was just, you know, so on emotion, you know, while I'm sitting in the middle of prayer night or something like that. But once I opened up and my church embraced me and. And I had to get past what has helped me so much. I think in my own walk as a Christian, I had to get past blaming the church for not understanding OCD and not understanding I'm sitting in the pew suffering. You know, you're acknowledging this person over here that has high blood pressure or you're acknowledging the person that has the broken leg. And here I am feeling like that little sparrow alone on the rooftop. But I realized that how could I hold the church accountable if I didn't even know myself? So once I was able to kind of blend those two together, it has really allowed me to move forward and offer hope to people that there is hope out there, and ultimately our hope lies in him. I personally believe therapy has been the greatest tool, but I know my biggest advocate, my biggest tool, my biggest go to will always be my relationship with him. So that is my encouragement to others that we're going to go through this thing called life, life, be life, as they say, but there is always hope because of our relationship with the father and the son.
- [48:30]
A
Thank you.
- [48:33]
D
Yeah. I would just, just add to that a couple of things. One, it's in my own experience being, being your own advocate is, is just so important. This is one of the things I've, I've had to learn. I, I mentioned earlier that I was. Spent six years in talk therapy and I really wasn't advocating for myself as I was not improving. And I lost those six years. Speaking of losing years of my life, I lost those six years and I can't get those years back. And that's a reality that I grieve. And so being your own advocate is really important. And to build off of what Valerie said, it's really important. I think, you know, part of being in faith is having a faith community and allowing them to bury your burdens. And you're going to have to explain OCD to them because it's not going to make sense to them. But once you do, you know, as Justin was saying earlier, you know, 1 to 2% population, you know, shares this, you're going to find people coming out of the woodwork who share these symptoms, who may or may not know that they have these symptoms, these, this diagnosis. And you might be a valuable resource to them. And so that's, that's great enough. I have personally found that to be true. But, but you need a support system and then you need to educate that support system and how not to give you, give you reassurance, which is, which is part of the trick. But, but that I think is, is part of it. And then, and then finally knowing that, that there is hope for recovery. For a long time I did not think that was true. And here I am today. Most, most days I'm subclinical. And I did not ever think I would get. You know, I think I've probably listened to almost every OCD stories podcast episode, and I never thought I would be subclinical, and that's my reality. So keep. Keep having hope.
- [50:49]
A
Nice. Nice. Thank you.
- [50:53]
E
For me, it's just remember, like, how loved you are because OCD can make you feel really unlovable, really hard to love, really ostracized, very alone. Because of what Alan just mentioned, it's hard to explain to people. People will never fully understand, unless they've experienced it what having OCD is like. And I think the sooner we accept that and even have grace for others in that we allow our doors to open, to allow people to come in in their best way, to love us and support us in the best way they know how. And also part of sharing that again, like Alan said, is it's spreading that awareness. OCD is so misunderstood. How many times a day do I mention I have OCD if people go, oh, my gosh, I also have OCD because I love when things are organized. And I'm like. And my response has. I've actually taught myself response, which is, boy, I sure wish that's what OCD was like for me. Instead, I just think about how I harm myself or others, and then they kind of go, what? And then I'm like, great, let's open this conversation. And a lot of that, you know, there's humor, too. You know, it's. It's dark and it's heavy, but there is love there. There is hope there. There is moments where being a human is hard, but it also gives us the opportunity to love others and be loved. And I think that's just so important that we forget so often. For me, I go to a group called Celebrate Recovery, which is not just for any sort of substance use. It's actually for any hurt, habit, or hang up. And in those groups, you know, it's a lot like aa. We sit down in a circle, we have our time to talk, and I love it because no one can give me reassurance. I talk for five minutes, and no one gets to talk back to me. And I can just let it out and not be concerned with that. I'm able to be open and honest, and through that, I actually have a friend whose daughter just recently got diagnosed, and she deeply needed to find out she had OCD because it was to a point where she was quitting her job and was hurting and just at the end of her rope. And I just think, wow, God, thank you for giving me the opportunity to Share my story openly in this space so that this mom could go to her child and say, do you think this might be this? And when they find out, they. They know I'm able to say, go to no cd, go to iocdf, like, go to these resources that I love and know and get the help you need. And now she's getting help. She's in therapy. She's working with a therapist, and she has hope for the first time in a long time. And that just took me stepping up to the plate to say, I'm going to be open and honest and this is going to be scary and hard, and it might be hard for others to hear, too, but there's purpose in this. And I have been met with so much love and so much support, and I know that this can be the story for others as well.
- [53:48]
B
Yeah.
- [53:49]
A
Nice. Thank you. And Justin.
- [53:51]
B
Yeah, Stu, thank you again, so much. So I know that for OCD stories, you speak to a diverse audience, and obviously a lot of people are not Christian. And for those that have listened to this episode, thank you. And I, first of all, just want to speak at that level of diversity, that there's hope, period. So I find myself, interestingly enough, though I work with a lot of Christians. I find myself in advocacy spaces with mostly not. And so what we're saying here, regardless of your beliefs and where you put your hope and focus, from an OCD standpoint, it can get better. And I hear the experts keep reminding me, the experts that are further ahead than myself say no. One who sticks with it and stays with it and keeps persevering doesn't get some benefit. It may not be exactly what the person had hoped for, but stay with it. And so I just want to pause and just say that for any listener. And then just on the personal side, as a Christian and getting deeper, I think it's so important to look to Jesus, period. The church is faulty. In fact, Charles Spurgeon said the church is faulty, but that is no excuse for you're not joining it if you are the Lord's. And it can be easy to fall into the fears of what is going to work. I need these things to fit together. But also I'm seeing there's a bit of a rage culture that kind of exists. And this comes up, too, even at times in the church, of just getting angry at everything. And I've been heard in this. And it doesn't minimize that there are traumas and hurts and those have to be addressed and worked with. But from the personal standpoint, on the hope side, it's so, so key to be able to look to Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, to quote scripture and to simplify. A lot of these things get overly complex because when I actually come back to Jesus, I can discover that, yeah, he sees, he knows. And there's. There's hope. And then back to the broader picture, from a treatment standpoint, there's hope. I see it every day with all the clients that I work with. Most get better and most get significantly better.
- [56:17]
A
Brilliant. Yeah. Great, great way to end. So, everyone, thank you for coming on. I know it's early for some of you or all of you, so I appreciate you being here, sharing your stories and your faith and experience of OCD and expertise of ocd. So I appreciate it. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [56:37]
E
Thank you so much for having us.
- [56:38]
A
Thank you for listening to this week's podcast and thank you to our patrons who helped make this episode possible. And if you would like to find out more about Patreon and the rewards and benefits, then there will be a link in the episode description. If you enjoy the OCD Stories podcast and would like to support us, please subscribe and rate the show wherever you listen to the podcast. And thank you to NOCD for supporting our work. And if you want to find out more about nocd, you can click the link in the episode description and quick disclaimer. Guys, this podcast is not therapy. It is not a replacement for therapy. Please seek treatment from a trained professional and until we speak, take care.