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- [00:00]
A
You're listening to the OCD Stories podcast hosted by me, Stuart Ralph. The OCD Stories is a podcast dedicated to raising awareness and understanding around obsessive compulsive symptoms. I do this for interviewing inspired therapists, psychologists and people who have experienced OCD. Welcome to the OCD stories and welcome to episode 539 of the podcast. And in this one I got back on Katydeaf. It's my about 10 years since I interviewed Katie, so it's great to chat with her again. Katie is a CBT therapist with a special interest in OCD and she also co authored the book managing OCD with CBT for Dummies. And she has a popular YouTube channel where she shares OCD videos. In this episode we get an update on her, what she's been up to. We discuss running OCD therapy groups, managing an online OCD community platform, benefits of community to people with ocd what Katie's learned from her OCD community Learning from groups that the content of OCD isn't the problem, Consistency in the skills and therapy and much more. And thanks to our podcast partners, nocd. If OCD is interfering with your life, NOCD can help. Their licensed therapists specialise in exposure and response prevention therapy. The most proven therapy for OCD with no CD effective treatment that is 100% virtual is available for children and adults with OCD and most members can get started within seven days on average. No hassle, just real science backed help and support between sessions. Begin your journey@nocd.com or I'll put the link in the episode description. So thank you so much to Katie for her time and expertise. Always a pleasure to connect with her and thank you to you guys for listening. As always, it means a lot. Without further ado, here is Katie. Welcome to the podcast Katie.
- [01:54]
B
Thank you very much for having me back, Stuart.
- [01:56]
A
Yeah, it's good to have you on. And as we were reminiscing there, it was about 10, almost 10 years ago you were last on so big chunk of time.
- [02:05]
B
Yeah, I know. Time flies.
- [02:07]
A
Yeah, it does, it does. And so you know, initially just what's new with you? In the last 10 years you've obviously been putting stuff out on YouTube but what else you been up to?
- [02:20]
B
So what is new? I guess I, you know, in many ways I've been carrying on as, as usual, you know, just really trying to help people overcome ocd. And then I think, I guess about five years ago I became, I, I think I've always, as you know from me having a YouTube channel I've always felt aware of and frustrated by how hard it is for people to get help. And that. That's why all those years ago, I started putting out the videos so that people could, you know, decent information and understanding and try and help themselves a bit. And then I. I thought I. I wanted to try and find a way of helping more people simultaneously in sort of. In a more closely therapeutic way. And so I. I wrote a treatment program and started running that as a group program, which was actually great. I loved it. It was a lot of work, but I really enjoyed doing that. And. And now I've kind of gone. I've now kind of merged the two, I think, between the group program and what I was doing with the YouTube channel to. And I've created. I've created kind of an online platform where people can access the program in a. In a community, which gives you a lot more structure and a lot more support than YouTube. Where what I find is that people will. They. They re. Look at the videos and they're like, great, but they need that. They need that extra kind of support, ability to kind of troubleshoot, ask questions, et cetera.
- [04:02]
A
Yeah.
- [04:02]
B
And also the joy of community. I think, you know, as you probably know so well, there's such a huge relief for people when they realize they're not the only one. Yeah. So. Yeah, So I guess that was my potted history of what I've been doing.
- [04:21]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's. Yeah, I agree. I agree with everything you're saying there. And yeah, I think with YouTube, I know when I was in the thick of it, I would use YouTube videos. Well, they were educating me, but I was also using them as reassurance. Every time I was back in the pit, I would go, you know, watch a video that I knew brought me comfort last time. This time it might not bring me the same level of comfort. And it's suspicious cycle of. So do you find the community you've created helps navigate that? Maybe because it's not just a video and then you kind of leave. It's. They're part of something.
- [05:00]
B
Yeah, I think it does help navigate that. So I think you're absolutely right. One of the, One of the downsides with, you know, putting stuff out there, and particularly some of the sort of shorter forms of social media like Instagram and things, is I think that it's very easy for people to use it for reassurance as opposed to like genuinely like learning and using it to help themselves to change. Not that they're not trying to, but you Know what? Ocd. So I think it's very sneaky so on in the community. There's not very many, but there's a few rules and one of them is about see, not, not seeking or giving reassur. And, but I explain that to people and I help people. I don't want people to feel petrified by, oh, I'm going to get it wrong. And in fact I encourage people to get it wrong because, you know, it's better to get it wrong than worry about getting it right. And people are really good at sort of saying, oh, I don't know, I think maybe that was reassurance or help pointing it out to each other. And so I think having, having that structure and having that level of kind of visibility maybe allows people to recognize better when they are using things in an unhelpful way.
- [06:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. Do you find the other, the other community members like flag that as well? Of like, oh, I think you may be asking for reassurance or do you?
- [06:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, totally. So, so, so in my sort of. I call them rules but you know, whatever. In my guidelines, one of the other things is about being open to feedback. Right. Because obviously sometimes people are gonna get it quote unquote wrong or you know, put something that's unhelpful and that. And again that's okay because that's the way people learn. And I think that people are quite open to that even if, even if it's not that comfortable in that moment. And people are good at sort of saying, hey mate, I think you're looking for reassurance. You know, I, I don't reckon Katie would want me to answer that or you know, things like that.
- [07:03]
A
Yeah.
- [07:04]
B
So it, I think that's where it becomes a team effort and you realize that, oh, it's not just me that does this, other people do this or like. And we, and you know, we can all, we know as therapists, you know, we can, we can all easily get tripped up by cunning old OCD and like provide reassurance where we didn't realize we were. Yeah, yeah. So it's just a learning curve for everybody. True.
- [07:30]
A
Yeah. That's a good way to look at it. You know, and you mentioned actually this was before we started recording about the Internet and how that sort of changed things, especially you know, the allowance of community based stuff. And where am I going with this? Yeah. So with one to one therapy, I guess throughout time. Throughout time being the last 120 years, however long therapy's been around, it's. It's been one to one, right? Therapist and client or therapist and patient. And then, then obviously there was group therapy that came along, which I'll ask you about in a bit. But how do you feel like communities like you've created and other people can help in that kind? Does it add a new layer of support that maybe over the last 120 years we haven't had? Because it's been a very isolated one to one piece of work?
- [08:27]
B
That's a really interesting question. And I, so I think, I think, I think for a start it probably does depend on the setup of the community. So I like, I call, I call it a therapeutic community in the sense that it is, it is, you know, what's the word? I don't want to say monitored, that's the wrong word. But it is sort of managed by and overseen by me, a therapist. And therefore the therapeutic level of it is that for as we were just talking about, for example, you're not just going to get people ranting and reassuring each other and going oh yeah, and that's really dirty as well, blah, blah, you know, there's no sharing of like ideas about how to, how to get better at avoiding or decontaminate all of that stuff. And I think so. I know that sometimes if something is, is just a, kind of, just a community that's not moderated. That's the word I was after that. That can be quite unhelpful because, you know, people can sort of go off in a, on a, in a direction that is actually probably making their OCD worse, not better. But in terms of, you know, does it provide what does, you know, what does it provide on top of one, on one or group. So I suppose the way I would look at it is in some ways this is like, it is like big group therapy in the sense that there's lots of people there. The other thing it provides is accessibility. So when you're, the model allows you to create something that is high quality at low cost. So obviously, you know, everyone needs to eat and put a roof over their head. So when you're doing one on one therapy, you know, you've only got so many hours in a day. You know, group therapy tends to be a bit less expensive because you know, you've got more people paying for that hour. And then of course, once you come into a level where you've got more people involved, you can bring that cost way, way lower. And that's for me where what I love is that I can help way more people who might otherwise not Be able to access really good, appropriate therapy. Because it's not just therapy, as we know very well. You know, there's lots of different kinds of therapy. And what we want is for people being able to access the right therapy that is actually going to be helpful for them rather than them accessing the therapy they can afford or access, you know, and so, so I think that's though, that's. I think that's the main thing that it allows. It allows people to tap in from anywhere, anywhere in the world, which obviously that's. That's. That you could have that in. In one, on one or group, but it also just. It allows you to provide something quality for way more people at a lower cost. And I think that's where the upside is.
- [11:09]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like it. We need multiple options because, yeah, not everyone has the right amount of time, the right amount of money. You know, there's varying factors. So, yeah, the more variables we have, like you say, therapeutic communities and other things, the better. So what have you learned, or have you learned anything from observing this sort of online community? Have they taught you anything or anything you've noticed?
- [11:38]
B
Oh, I like. That's an awesome question. And I love it in the sense that I feel like I learn all the time from people in different ways and from observing. And I suppose if I go back one step, you know, running the group program, which was. Which was all online, but running the group program, I feel like I learned so much that then allowed me to really pour that into then doing it, changing that structure and creating it as a kind of platform with a community. Because I think what I observed was the extent to which people benefit from hearing about other people's OCD is probably quite contrary to what many people with OCD will think. So one of the things that I hear a lot is that, oh, I'd worry I'd pick up on all their, you know, other people's fears and worries. I get their themes, you know, and it's like, well, you know, that may or may not happen in the short term, but the bottom line is that doesn't have to be a bad thing. Just shows you that you need. That you need to learn to deal with it all differently. Right? And, you know, we know that if you just focus in on your one theme and go, okay, I'm fine. I can deal with that now, you know, but you're, like, too worried about picking up on other people's. You're not quite where you. You want to be in terms of your progress. So I Think that's one of the things I really, really saw so much in action because I used to run groups years and years ago at the Priory in North London when I worked there. And I don't. I. No, I don't think we. I don't think it was theme specific, but I don't remember it being quite as obvious to me how important it was for people to be able to see other people and the way that they were working with their problems. Because the other thing is, it's so much. It's much easier for us to look at someone else and go, why are they doing that? Why don't they just do this? Why? What? And then you get them to go, okay, that's interesting. So you can really see what's going on for them and you can see that they, they ideally need to respond in this way. How, how can you help yourself with that? And obviously, often we have that. Oh, but it's different. And then, and then. But being in that group scenario really helps people to realize it's not different, is it? And like. And that's what I love. And that's what I find really helpful. Yeah. In being in a group or being. Being in the kind of community set up for people.
- [14:10]
A
Yeah, I agree with that. Because I think especially online, you. You can. The touch of a keypad, you can search your specific theme in your niche of ocd and you'll find a ton of blogs, podcasts, whatever else, YouTube videos, all on that theme. And I think it isolates people quite a lot, like, gives them community, because it's. I think it is important to hear from others who experience the same sort of worries as you. But I think after a while it can become quite isolating of, oh, I have relationship, ocd, pedophile fiend, ocd, whatever it is. When really instead of it's, I have ocd. And I think that's where groups are really useful because as you're saying, you can meet all these other people with these different themes and realize the pattern's the same, the worries are different, the structure of ACD OCD is exactly the same.
- [14:58]
B
Exactly. And that's where it becomes really powerful. Right. When people. Helps people to recognize and really see in action that the content is not the problem, it's how you're responding to it. Yeah. Like, you can tell people that till you're blue in the face, but when, when people go, oh, I see, like they're worrying about something that I wouldn't care less about, and yet they are having the same really difficult, life altering experience that I'm having. That's really powerful, I think.
- [15:27]
A
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Do you think that is one of the best ways to get people to learn that compared to. Because you obviously work this community, you do group therapy and you do one on one with your one on one clients. Is it, is it hard sometimes to get them to see that, that it's all very similar?
- [15:48]
B
So I guess, I guess it would be that we probably. I don't, I think, I think it, they are. That is a shame then people can't actually witness that. So I think that, that, I mean, I'm sure you've had it many times, that conversation where people say, oh, I wish I had that kind of ocd. And so that's where that conversation would come and it'd be like, okay, so if you had that kind of OCD and you know, you found, you know, touching the door handle completely terrifying and you thought that if you did that all your family were going to die and it had all of the same feelings that, that your current OCD had. Do you, do you genuinely think it would be easier and then they'll be like, oh, yeah, I guess not, you know, but, but it's, it's different because it's you telling them rather than them really witnessing it, isn't it? And it, I think we're much more generally much better learning when we're absorbing something rather than being told it.
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A
Yeah, yeah, that cliche, you got to see it to believe it. Yeah, yeah.
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B
I think the other, the other big issue about the theme, the theme thing is when, when people, if you, when people focus too much on the, on the theme of their OC or being part, as you say, like, let's say you're part of a, like, part of a group that's just for like relationship OCD or whatever. Is that then, then the danger is that you are trying to get okay with your content rather than really getting very good at learning to deal with the, the discomfort and the negative emotions, et cetera, that come with that content. And then that leaves you quite vulnerable to it, just to ocd, just deciding, oh fine, you're not going to worry about relationships anymore, but now you're going to worry about this instead. And that's, I think is the biggest risk with that.
- [17:54]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. So how much at the minute are you work, like pausing on the community for a second just with your sort of group stuff? Well, actually, before I ask this question, are you still doing that group Course thing you did where.
- [18:12]
B
So I'm not currently, I don't currently have like have a current cohort in the group doing it that, running that group. But I, but I do, but I do live calls through the community. So anyone on the community can also, you know, can join live calls so effectively that is, that's still available to people. But I'm, I'm just, I'm not running it as a sort of separate like cohort at the moment.
- [18:41]
A
Okay. How do the live calls work? What, what sort of things are you doing on it?
- [18:47]
B
So, so, so in terms of now with the community.
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A
Yeah, with the community. So.
- [18:51]
B
Yeah, so. So I have, I have different. There's sort of different themes, different days. So for example, one might just be like general Q and A where anyone could just crop up, come and ask questions. I have, you will be unsurprised to hear I a regular like ERP troubleshooting, you know, because I still, you know, I'm a big fan of if people are going to do that, that they do it in a way that's really going to be helpful. And then I usually have like a kind of topic of the week course. So, you know, maybe. Okay, this week we're going to talk about like perfectionism or ruminating or whatever. Yeah, so. So that, so there's a bunch of sort of different calls and people can come to whatever they like, whenever they like.
- [19:39]
A
Okay. Yeah, I like that. So on ERP troubleshooting, what are some like really. They're common questions. You get quite a lot with ERP that's like sticky for people.
- [19:50]
B
I think the thing that people. Well, there's a few things I think people find really hard. So one of them, I think at the beginning is for them I've just realized the dogs in the room, one of them is that, you know, because of the whole, the name exposure and response prevention, I think people get very stuck on the idea that, you know, you've just got to expose yourself and then try really hard not to respond. And even though I talk about it a lot and there's like videos about how to set it up and all of that, I, I think people, what people find it hard is to come up, come up with the really good structure for doing a really good exposure. That means that, that the, that this, the focus is not on sort of preventing your response, but on doing it in such a way that the response becomes kind of almost pointless. And I think that's something that people really struggle with. I think the other thing, and I mean I see a lot is, especially for people who have, who feel at least like they don't have an external compulsions where, you know, all the kind of mental compulsions and internal rumination, checking all of that. People often find it hard to come up with ideas for exposures. Again. Yeah, we've got loads of ideas and material in there, but that doesn't mean people necessarily see it and use it. So I think those are some of, some of the things that people struggle with. And then I think consistency, consistency is a tricky one. And that's another way that you can use a community really nicely. Because I run like challenges and things like that so that people, to help people stay accountable, create consistency. Because you know what, what we don't want is someone doing one exposure and going, I did it. But, you know, it hasn't worked. So really you took one pill and you're not better, you know, so, so we would. So yeah, I think that that's another thing people struggle with just maintaining the focus, keeping, keeping hold, keeping the faith and carrying on.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Doing the exposure on a regular basis. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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A
That's really. Yeah, really good. Yeah. Because I see that a lot with my clients. Sometimes it's, you know, they'll do something once or it's, it's whether it's sort of erp, as you're saying, or like act skills. And really it's. It's these got to be practiced a lot and often for an extended period of time. And then like going to the gym, you lift away once, you're not going to get strong. If you lift it, you know, five, four or five days a week for several months, you're going to get strong. But I think sometimes people, well, people are so desperate. Right. And anxious that it's like looking for that magic bullet. I know, I can relate to that. When I was in it, I wanted just a quick fix and rather than have a strategy and try and implement it for an extended period of time.
- [23:00]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is, that's a tricky one, isn't it? To get past when you are, when you are desperate to feel different and you do something and effectively you're like, oh, it hasn't fixed everything, you know, or hasn't potentially fixed anything in that one time. You know, sometimes it is easy to be like, oh, I need to find something else. And helping people just to stay consistent is a big part of it. And I think actually we touched on this earlier, but I think that's where I, some sometimes worry about with, with the accessibility now of, like, social media is that I think it's really easy for people, as you mentioned, to like, hop from one thing to another. Oh, this person's got the answers, or that person's got the answers, you know, and. And actually, it's so important for people to, you know, to. To pick a route and to PR and to keep practicing and, you know, to create change. Like you say, like going to the gym, you know, that whole idea. Rome wasn't built in a day. Yeah, true.
- [24:06]
A
Yeah.
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B
I wish it was. You know, like I always say, like, I re. I wish. I wish I could just, you know, be like, right, that's it. Magic done. You know, if I. If I could, I would.
- [24:18]
A
Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, just. I don't know. I'm thinking maybe in. I could. I'll go on a tangent and I'll edit it if it's weird, but thinking about, like, roam and like, AI comes to mind of, like, AI is built in a day. You know, it's like you can build anything in 20 seconds with AI. Maybe not anything. Some things might take a couple minutes, but most things, it builds it instantly, but there's no substance to it. It's like, I don't know. Compared to, say, an artist that spent 20 hours painting this canvas, you can just tell it feels different. There's something meaningful to it, I guess, is what I'm saying. So, again, in OCD recovery, yes, it's frustrating sometimes. It takes time, but actually, through that pain and that process, life becomes richer for the person, more character, more whatever. Yeah, I don't know.
- [25:12]
B
Yeah, I think. I think that's right. And it's. And. And part of that. That consistency in that process is also. It's. It's rare for someone that. That their OCD exists, like, in. In a vacuum, in the sense that.
- [25:27]
A
Yeah.
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B
You know what the. The other piece of work is? Isn't it like to. To start using those skills much more generally in your life? You know, like, if you ask if you have ocd, it's quite likely that you have, you know, some. Some of. Some of the sort of. I kind of call, like, the pillars that hold up OCD in other areas of your life. Like, you know, being incredibly cautious and not taking risks, you know, like, not being sometimes fly by the seat of your pants or, you know, being super thorough, super analytical. All things that can be really good. And can you. They can get a lot of people. You'll see they've got an amazing job, you know, doing something that. That uses some of those skills. But we also want to help people to learn. Yeah, that's great. But you also need to learn to. In other areas, just start to allow yourself to be able to be a little bit more flexible. And I think that's the deeper piece of work that helps people to get to a point where they're very resilient against OCD cropping back up.
- [26:43]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's a good way to look at it. Yeah. So on that, like, take those pillars for a second. Do you see, like, I did an episode a while ago called the Upside of ocd.
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B
Oh, yeah.
- [26:58]
A
I don't know if you're familiar with that. And Michael Ulce. Dr. Michael Ulcey. And he. He's not saying, like, you know, it's. OCD is great. He's just saying the things that I think, paraphrasing him. The kind of. There's kind of like. You're saying there's these underlying, like, things like sensitivity, creativity, all of this, but it's maybe just gone in overdrive and the OCD's there, but actually, as you get OCD down, these other things remain, you know, that are good. Why did I bring that up? There was a question I had for you, and I'm blanking. Yeah. Maybe just. Do you see any of these kind of innate, beneficial things in people that also have ocd? Maybe that's what I'm trying to say.
- [27:46]
B
Oh, I mean, absolutely. I think, I think. I think. I think it's. It's all that. With that. It's a lot to do with the balance, isn't it? It's like, it's amazing, you know, that you. For. As an example, if someone is like, super analytical and thorough and exacting, which all the things that I'm really not. Probably the reason why I. I pick those as traits, because I'm like Captain Chaos. I. You know, and that's amazing. You know, maybe you're like, you know, a lawyer or, you know, a business analyst, or you use those traits in a way that mean that you are doing something brilliant and great. And the, The. The work that I often do with people around that is helping them to see that you can have all those traits and not have OCD and like, and that, that, that learning to let go of OCD and behave differently doesn't mean you're suddenly going to become like me, Captain Chaos. You know, those traits are part of you and they're. They're really great part of you. And it's not. It's not that the OCD got You where you wanted to say, like, when people, when people experience a lot of positive from their ocd, in some ways it's harder for them to let go because they've got that, you know, perception that it's, it's the overuse of those things that got them somewhere. Whereas I would argue. No, it's. It's your use of those things that got you there. And the overuse is the unhelpful bit. Yeah, that didn't. So I think, I think you're right. You know, like, I mean, we, as a general rule, I think we all have our positive, negative qualities, but it's when, when things get out of balance and when people are almost like. It's like all your eggs in one basket. You know, if we, if we. It's like, it's like, it's when someone is, say, like just working, working super hard, you know, they might get burnt out because there's no balance. They're not also going, oh, yeah, I need to remember to take a break and go have a beer with a friend or, you know, do some exercise or. So again, it becomes back to that idea of balance. Yeah.
- [29:55]
A
And we see that in nature, right. When animal populations get out of control, it causes problems to other species and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But it doesn't mean those animals are bad. It just means the excessive amount of them is the problem. Not the, the animals are good and great. But. Yeah, okay. Yeah, again, I'm not, I'm not, whatever you'd call it, an animal. I don't even know the word for it, so I could be completely wrong there. But that's. What. How I've.
- [30:29]
B
No, I mean, I'm always good with a, like, I don't know. I never know which metaphor analogy. I never know one of those things. Yeah, I think it's a nice. It's often. There are great ways of explaining things, aren't they, and helping people. Proceedings. So I'm all up for that. I don't think you have to be a nature expert.
- [30:45]
A
No. Nature expert. There you go. Is it nature biologist or no, did you say?
- [30:51]
B
Yeah, no, biology, I think nature's biology, isn't it?
- [30:54]
A
Guess so we'll go with it.
- [30:57]
B
Partly.
- [30:58]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just looking at my questions in case I've missed any. Yeah. Maybe just group therapy specifically. So when you're actually doing, you know, scheduled maybe like it's the same people every week or that sort of thing, what do you see in those group therapy or group exposure sessions that maybe you don't see one to one.
- [31:25]
B
That's a good question. Well, I think, as I've sort of touched on before, I think that the, the first thing is the, the. The learning from each other.
- [31:35]
A
Yeah.
- [31:35]
B
And, you know, so especially if you've got someone who's really reticent and they're seeing other people, not only do the work, but when you. When people start to see someone else benefit from the work, that's very powerful. So, of course, if you're in one to one, you can't know about benefits until you're actually doing it yourself. Or you can't. Not really. Um, you know, you might know you're meant to benefit, but. Yeah. So I think when people see somebody else's progress, that. That is very motivating. I think I'm trying to remember what the question was specifically. What other.
- [32:16]
A
Yeah. What do you know? It's different in group therapy than one to one.
- [32:21]
B
I think the, the whole kind of accountability factor. Right. As well is one. So, I mean, I think we have this anyway in one to one. I'm sure you have that where someone turns up and then they apologize to you that they haven't done whatever you agreed they're going to do. And it's like, well, it's not me that. That is needing to change, you know, so I'm okay if you don't want to do it. But when, when you have a. When you have a group, I think that that wanting, that, that. That classic human thing of wanting to, to fit in and be part of the process is another good thing. Helps people to kind of go, I don't want to show up and just say, I didn't do anything. So I think that's. That's quite a helpful thing. I mean, I'm not talking about in any way, like, ever kind of giving anyone a hard time for when they don't do something. You know, as you know, that's always a good. It's just a sign of like, okay, let's have a look. Why not? And you explore that. But yes, I think, I think it's motivational. It helps people to stay accountable. It's incredibly normalizing as well, working in a group. Because. Yeah. You're just going, oh, I'm just. I'm just like everybody else here, which I think, you know, never underestimate the power of normalizing. So I say so. Yeah, that too. I guess those are probably some of the main things. And I guess there's. There's another thing which I think. So I think when you when. So one of the ways where that I run the group sessions is actually encouraging people to, to do a little bit of like answer each other's questions. So someone might ask me a question and I might say, okay, so you know, this person is asking, you know, what, what do they think they should, how could they expose themselves to this? Does anyone, has anyone got any ideas about how they might be able to do that and then, or what, what they might be asking, why is this not working? And I might say to someone, do you want, do you want to have a conversation and see whether you can help this person understand why this is not working? So, and, and that thing of helping someone become a kind of teacher leader in the session, I guess that's a whole added dimension that I think really solidifies the learning and helps people to then help themselves. And they get the added bonus of that kind of like feeling useful and helpful and kind of getting out of their head and out of their own experience, which I think is really beneficial.
- [35:12]
A
Yeah, I think that there's, I think there's a lot to giving back and as you say, feeling useful and as we teach others, that's the best way to learn.
- [35:22]
B
Yeah, exactly, that's. And it's funny because you said to me earlier, you know, have you, you know, what do you feel like you've learned? And I think that's the thing is we learn all the time from our clients, don't we? And, and in a group scenario there's just more people to learn from and they learn from each other. And I'm not sure if I said this already, but I think one of the things that I think is often sort of maybe misunderstood and the reason why people don't like the idea of say working in a group or a larger community is, is that kind of notion. Like, but my OCD is different. Like, you know, and I think that's really powerful kind of recognizing that, you know, because this is so largely a problem of processing. Like you can work in much bigger, in a much bigger scenario and you can, I mean we know that they've done, you know, the studies with self directed online work and the bit. The biggest issue with that is not that it doesn't work is that people drop out. People drop out because it's hard. Right? It's hard to motivate yourself if it's just you and the computer. And I think obviously if it's you and a therapist that's, that helps you. And if it's the same thing, if it's you in a community, you've got, you've got, you've got a reason to keep going. Yeah, but I think there is, I think that helping people with OCD recognize that. Don't get me wrong, you know, I love one on one therapy. I've done it for years. I think it's great. I just think it also, it's really important for people to understand that it's not the only thing that you can use to help yourself. And of course, not only is it not accessible for everyone, but there's never going to be as many therapists as there are people with ocd. You know, even, even if we, even if it times it by, you know, us working 40 hours a week, you're still going to have people who are not going to be able to access one on one treatment.
- [37:26]
A
That's a good point.
- [37:27]
B
So I think it's really important that people understand that help can cut. Not only can it come in different forms, it can be highly effective in different forms.
- [37:38]
A
Yeah, yeah. And for some people it's a combination or it's different things at different stages. One time.
- [37:43]
B
Exactly. That's right.
- [37:44]
A
Try a group and then they might want a community or stepped care as they call it, you know. Yeah. And I think like, I'm a big fan of like thinking in evolutionary terms and if, you know, once upon a time, many thousands of years ago, we would have gone to like in the tribe, what's the, like the medicine man or woman or the elder or whatever. Yeah, the chieftain. Exactly. And we would have had those sort of one to one sessions, no doubt. Which is, you know, parallel with seeing a therapist. But then also you would have healed within the community. They would have done rituals, you know, all of this as a community to heal the person.
- [38:29]
B
Exactly. Yeah.
- [38:30]
A
So it's similar to like communities now or group work. And it's. Yeah, all of it's important.
- [38:36]
B
Yeah, that, that's right. And like you say, it doesn't have to be one or it doesn't have to be one or the other necessarily, or you know, it might be one at a time, but you know, different work for different people, you know, and it's just opening up, opening up the options so that more people can get the help they need. Because it's that frustration that, you know, we know this is a really treatable condition and yet there's so many people suffering.
- [39:01]
A
Yeah.
- [39:02]
B
Not getting treatment.
- [39:03]
A
Good point, good point. Okay, so words of hope. What would you tell people Listening?
- [39:12]
B
Oh, I think that was probably just it then, wasn't It, I guess, Yeah. I think that the main hope is to, you know, to that, you know, OCD is very treatable regardless of anything you might have read or whatever, because I know there's still a lot of sort of more of that old fashioned stuff online about it being chronic and all of that. You know, there is, there is help out there. There's also, you know, there's also affordable help out there. And that. Yeah, nobody, nobody has a magic wand, even if they tell you they do is what I would say. But that is not a lack of hope. That is a, like, you know, this is something that if you, if you put in the work, not only can you get yourself better, but also you will probably find that it takes you to a whole new level in terms of, you know, your understanding of yourself and your experience of life. And I'm sure you've seen this with clients and like how, you know, people will sometimes talk about, you know, I'm almost glad that I went through that because, you know, I'm just so. I feel so much more, you know, sort of wiser about myself and the world and, and as I always say, listen, if you can, if you can get through ocd, you can get through anything is what. Is what I think.
- [40:27]
A
Yeah, yeah, good point, good point. And okay, so you can pick up the phone and call the 20 year old you. What'd you tell her? Oh,
- [40:39]
B
relax. Yeah. Do you know, that's interesting question. What was I. I mean, yeah, probably that. I think the idea that things, things were, things will unfold the, the way they're kind of meant to and you know, don't push too hard.
- [41:03]
A
Yeah, okay. Yeah, I like that. Nice.
- [41:07]
B
Do you have an answer to that question, Stuart?
- [41:09]
A
Yeah. A 20 year old me,
- [41:15]
B
it was
- [41:15]
A
probably like a real. That time in my life was a real nice little period. I still had ocd, but it wasn't like bothering me as much. And then it rapidly increased after university. But what would I tell myself? I think take more risks. I was too safe.
- [41:33]
B
Take more risks is, is a, is a generally good piece of advice, I think.
- [41:38]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Throw caution to the wind a bit more. Yeah, but. And then the next question is, you got a billboard. What do you want written on that billboard?
- [41:49]
B
Oh, I should have, I should have. I should have practiced this, shouldn't I?
- [41:52]
A
Did I asked you that one last time?
- [41:54]
B
No, but I've heard you ask other people. Oh, no. Upsetting could be so good. Amazing. Amazing what happens to your brain when you, when you get put on the spot. Isn't it? What's going to be on my billboard?
- [42:12]
A
First thing, it comes in your head. Don't censor yourself.
- [42:15]
B
Okay, so this is. I said this to someone. Yes. The other day, actually to a friend. We were having a chat and I said, what would you do if you knew it was all going to be okay? So, yeah, I think it's like that thing for me, it's about taking yourself out of your head and where you are at that moment. That is that thing between short term and long term thinking. And this was actually us talking about our children and you know, as a parent, how it's very easy to kind of get overly involved and, you know, try and fix something in the here and now. Lots of parallels with ocd, you know, and so I quite often say that to myself, like, if I, if I knew it was going to be okay, you know, further down the line, what would I do now? And that sometimes helps me make. Yeah. Perhaps more difficult or unpopular decisions rather than necessarily do what might be more kind of soothing to either me or my child in that moment. So again, you know, quite a big parallel, I think, with OCD there.
- [43:19]
A
Yeah. Because. Yeah, good point. Because if you know it's going to be all. All good, then you can sacrifice the short term to.
- [43:27]
B
Yeah, for the long term.
- [43:28]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [43:30]
B
Yeah. Do you do realize that, like tonight I'm going to wake up in the middle of the night with a really good Bilbo quote and I'll be like,
- [43:41]
A
just email me, but I'll be all right.
- [43:42]
B
I'll be all right.
- [43:43]
A
There you go.
- [43:45]
B
I'll write it down so that in 10 years time.
- [43:48]
A
There you go. Hey, if I'm doing this in another 10 years, I mean, I need my head checked.
- [43:56]
B
But no, so in 10 years time we'll have, we'll have got to a point where every. Everyone's got the help they need and, you know, OCD is just a short term glitch.
- [44:05]
A
Well, yeah, I would have outsourced my brain to AI at that point and it can just produce podcasts for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's my questions. So look, thank you so much for coming on.
- [44:21]
B
Oh, it's lovely to chat to you again.
- [44:22]
A
Yeah, yeah, it was like. It was just yesterday, the chat. Yeah, last one we did. But yeah. Any final words you want to say?
- [44:35]
B
Any final words? Josh, I was going to, I was going to say to you, it's probably not the best final word things, but I think it was related to something you said earlier about, about working In a. In a, like, you know, in a group with other people. And you actually had someone on your podcast who had been on my group program. And when she first started, she was absolutely adamant there was no way on God's great earth she was going to say her content out loud because it was so terrible in her mind. And she. After she finished the program, she actually. She made a little, like, photography project where she. She talks about it. She, you know, she's got her picture in it and everything. And she was like, oh. And she's like, you can do whatever you like with it. And it's on my YouTube channel. And I thought, that's extraordinary. To go from. I'm not going to say this out loud in, you know, in the space of other people to making. Making something that she was happy for me to put online. I thought it was just a really great. A great little story for you in terms of the power of being able to. To do things in. In. In a group where, you know, you can be accepted regardless of what you say.
- [45:53]
A
I think that's a really good testimony or. But the. Yeah, it reminds me what you said earlier about if everything was okay, what would you do? And for her, obviously, she got to the point where she could take that risk, that she thought it was gonna work out and therefore put it out in an artistic form.
- [46:14]
B
Yeah.
- [46:15]
A
Which is brave.
- [46:16]
B
Yeah.
- [46:17]
A
Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Thank you for adding that. Well, thanks again.
- [46:22]
B
Yeah, lovely chatting and, yeah, keep up the great work with the podcast. I'm very impressed by your. Your consistency. I don't. I don't have such great consistency in terms of putting things out there, but you do a fabulous job.
- [46:37]
A
I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this week's podcast and thank you to our Patreons who helped make this episode possible. And if you would like to find out more about Patreon and the rewards and benefits, then there will be a link in the episode description. If you enjoy the OCD Stories podcast and would like to support us, please subscribe and rate the show wherever you listen to the podcast. And thank you to NOCD for supporting our work. If you want to find out more about nocd, you can click the link in the episode description and quick disclaimer. Guys, this podcast is not therapy. It is not a replacement for therapy. Please seek treatment from a trained professional. And until we speak, take care.