← The OCD Stories
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- [00:00]
A
You're listening to the OCD Stories podcast hosted by me, Stuart Ralph. The OCD Stories is a podcast dedicated to raising awareness and understanding around obsessive compulsive symptoms. I do this for interviewing inspired therapists, psychologists and people who have experienced OCD. Welcome to the OCD stories and welcome to episode 531 of the podcast. And in this one I chat with Alex who has kindly agreed to share his OCD story with us. And in particular we talk about suicidal themed ocd, inference based cbt, worries of harming others, existential themed ocd, how his wife helped, meditation, low self worth, understanding the past, pedophile themed ocd, health anxiety, self compassion and much more. And thanks to our podcast partners. Nocd. If OCD is interfering with your life, NOCD can help their licensed therapists specialize in exposure and response prevention therapy. The most proven therapy for OCD with NOCD, effective treatment that is 100% virtual, is available for children and adults with OCD. And most members can get started within seven days on average. No hassle, just real science backed help and support between sessions. Begin your journey@nocd.com or I'll put the link in the episode description. So thank you so much to Alex for his time and his story. It was great speaking with him, he's got a lovely energy about him. And thank you to you guys for listening as always, I hope you enjoy this one. Without further ado, here is Alex. Welcome to the podcast, Alex.
- [01:41]
B
Thank you for. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you.
- [01:43]
A
Good to have you on. So, yeah, you've listened to the podcast, you know the drill. And so it'd be great to hear your OCD story now.
- [01:52]
B
Yeah, I think it comes in a couple of different parts. I now retrospectively realize that I've been dealing with it for a long time in like little spikes. But it came at the end of 2023 where I became. It's funny how I sort of rose into it. So mine was definitely a suicide. OCD and self harm. And I initially convinced myself I had diabetes with zero evidence, which I know is the dumb thing. And I've got family members who are like nurses and doctors. They were like questioning me and I was like, no, no. But I think I. I think I know. I think I know more than you do about this. That went on for a while and I remember very specifically sitting on the couch one day feeling so anxious and my stomach just turned and I just couldn't not think about it, which I know is very obvious, but. And the thought Jumped into my head, well what if you can't believe that you don't have it? And then the next next logical jump was well then you're insane. And then of them insane, what if I try and kill myself? And obviously this is all what if. It always starts with what if. Never had any ideations. I've never self harmed, never sort of the depression but I was just, I just got worse and worse and worse till every mo. Every waking moment was just. I stopped me job tattooing for a while because I was like scared to leave the house or being on my own. It was horrific. And I started going back to talk therapy because I didn't know I had ocd. I didn't know what it was, didn't know what I was trying to get over. I thought I had a lot of trauma type things to do with me dad and other things. And I was like well figure that out then that will go away. That must be connected. And she kept me into the session one day for like an extra hour and a half and just drilled down into it and kept going, go well if you are suicidal, what. And it was like I now realized that we were now starting to give creams to the idea that was the thought isn't the issue. Yeah, it's the process that gets it. And she just kept knocking down and I walked out shaking and I rang my wife and I was like this is not, this is. I don't feel like I'm making a breakthrough or like something's happening here. So I looked into it very briefly and I live in Liverpool and I was on Rodney Street. Anyone who probably listens to that, there's an amazing, a OCD specialist there and I went to pub, probably a bad idea after therapy but I was like just to try and come down a little bit and it quickly says. And his office was less than 5 minute walk away from the pub I was in and I rang them, we had a quick five minute conversation, said what are you dealing with? And I went I'm terrified that I might try and kill myself anyway. Right. I, I think, I think I can speak to you about this. We went through a bit more obviously within two sessions of doing ICBT inference based cbc. Within two sessions already the, the mechanics of how I was able to get through that. But within that big spike I had when like my head completely fell off, I, it got to the point where like what if I try and kill my wife? Which I now look back, that was a previous one that I had. And as I started Getting past the point of, am I suicidal? It then jumped to existential, and it's a squirrely mental health condition. Because I realized very quickly it was, well, what if there is no point of being alive? Then kill yourself. And I was like, all right, I see what we're doing. We're just finding a new doorway to get to the same exact problem. And then started. I think what I've tried to do with all this is basically head on as much as possible. And so I started looking at philosophers and looking at Camus and absurdism and all this other stuff. And I was like, no, no, okay, this is good. I need to start worrying that there is no point, because there is no point. You know, we're on a floating ball of rock. Life is what you're making it, the rest of it, you know. And it was. That was a tough one. But it kept on coming back to suicide. And as I mentioned before, in two halves, it turns out I've been deal since I was a child. I just. Not until he sat down with me. He kind of just went, so have you got any examples that maybe apply to this? And I was like, oh, oh, like thousands. Now that we're talking about it. I convinced myself my wife will listen to this and she will laugh. I will talk about it. Because she was the one who truly sort of got me to remove shame from the entire thought process, which for me personally was, I imagine where OCD lives is your worst possible pro. I apologize. I'm being quite sprawling here, by the way. I apologize. So I convinced myself that she was a lesbian for literally no reason at all. And then after that, I convinced myself I was a serial killer and that I wanted to hate her. I wanted to kill her. I was terrified. I did talk therapy for that and it worked and it helped. And it sort of washed it back down for a while. And then little things would pop up and I'd get onto it very quickly and it like wave. And as I say, the end of 2020, 20, 24, 23 is when it happened so drastically, where I was housebound for like two months. And it followed me around, really, in the back of my mind, but not till now. I'm now thankfully in a very, very good place and I know exactly what's going on, you know, with the ICBT and escitalopram medication. And yeah, it has been a bit of a. A wild thing discovering that this thing is. Exists. But yeah, to speak about my wife, when talking to her, I eventually broke down and told her that I was like, I'm really worried that I. I want to kill you. And she just stared at me, okay, so we have to see. And I was like, how are you not. How are you not freaked out? And she went, you've never been in a fight. You've never even seen your killer fly. So this is the jump. This is what we're doing now. You just now convince yourself that you're the same ocular. And that did make it absurd for like one evening. And the anxiety went away because I think shame had been removed. And we've done exercises. But I was in the worst of it. When she'd go, the second intrusive thought pops into your head, tell me exactly what it is. I don't care how dark it is, I don't care how bad it is. She went, I know what this is that you've got. I know what's going on. I'm not letting you walk around with it for the rest of the day. She just tell me. And we'd like walk past a mirror and I go, I'm thinking I'm smashing the window and cut me wrist. And she got up, right, okay, so we're going to head to the kitchen department because we need to pick up some st. I'm like, right, okay. And then we'd walk past the kid and I convinced myself I was a pedophile for about two weeks. That was. And there is funny instances that I can laugh at now. And not to make light of it, as I mentioned before and stuff. I remember cycling through the park trying to clean me head. I went past the kid and I looked at him and my brain just went, what if you ate that kid's brain? I mean, stomach dropped. And I got like a full body, like anxiety, panic attack, like. And then five, 10 minutes later, I'm cycling through the park and I went past another mother and a son and I didn't think about eating the kid's brain. And I got angry at myself but not thinking it because I was sort of like, you can't. I got angry at my own. Like, you can't pick and choose what you want to have these thoughts. And I was like, surely this is every kid I see now. And I was like, and I think these are the little tiny drops in the ocean to let me know that this is not. This is nothing to do with me and my values. This isn't. This is. What's the worst possible thing you could potentially. And I do art and stuff for, for a living. So my job is to come up with fate scenarios and silver linings. I'm not entirely sure, but yeah. So it's a lot. I. Paul, again, I apologize for being quite sprawling here.
- [10:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And is there anything else you want to add before I ask any questions?
- [10:14]
B
I think it was as a kid again, like now it's. It's funny. I mean, I. I've found that just being honest and talking about it, like me, my friends are so I. I have locally, I talk too much, which is probably horribly abundant in this book. I think the upside of that is that I will just tell people what this is. I'll give them examples of it and. And go, this is how insane it can feel. This is the stuff that runs through me. And meditation help being able to just let things pass by. But these are things that pop up just because of nothing there and they're in there. And if I judge them as shameful things and try to connect them to I actually am and try and give them weight, then you're just going to feed the. The monster, as it were. But, yeah, I. Look, I end up going to nerd about OCD and wanting to know everything I possibly could because I'm a bit of a nerd. So if I understand the mechanics of something, it helps me dismantle it and then I can sort of lay all the pieces out on the table and go, okay, yeah, that's how this works. Now I don't have to worry about why I think this is happening. These are the processes in place, I think. Inference, cbt, when talking therapist. That's the first one he tried and it made so much sense and it cleared up so much of the mystery surrounding it. Yeah, but, yeah, I. I still try. It looks to say, but no, yeah, it's. It's been a. Been a pretty weird journey. And now a couple of me clients have been diagnosed after me probably yammering on a bit too much. But straight away, when I'd bring it up, they go like, sorry. I drive my car and I worry that I've run someone over and I have to get back in my car and check. And I'm like, oh, that's like classic. That's like gold standard ocd. Like, that's the. The one that, like, a lot of people have. And they're like, oh, should I go and speak to a doctor? And if it's causing you so such bad anxiety that you're unable to, like, live. And she went, yeah, I've stopped driving my car for like six months and I was like, maybe go and see a doctor. And I got a message on Instagram from it. She was like, I just want to say thank you for the first person who's contextualized it outside of someone being clean and nitpicky, you know. But, yeah, just hit me with questions as well, because I probably end up talking too much anyway.
- [12:42]
A
I'm a therapist. I like to let people talk. Yeah. Well, that must have felt really good getting that message and knowing that you. You could help her and, you know, raise awareness for her and. Yeah, I'm glad you said about. You realize, actually there was lots of things earlier on in childhood because I. I hear that a lot. That even when people say, oh, you know, I was 40 or I was 25, and it like hit me like a ton of bricks, came out of nowhere. And then they usually say 10 minutes later in the story. But when I look back, actually there were. There were things in my childhood, you know, it wasn't full blown, but it was like, what was that for you?
- [13:20]
B
It was. I think as a kid I would get like, I used to win obsessed stupid book. If you're on holiday as a family, I would. I actually remember. This is so stupid. But the song, I think Ocean Drive by. And then that came on. It reminded me of home. And I wanted to go and see me dog. And became unconsolable to the point where it was like. I now look back, it was like hours. Not just I want to see me dog, like a full body anxiety. And maybe that was me being a brat, but I fear that's also me just playing into the fact that that's what I got called for after that way. But then I remember a very specific time. Me brother stag Duke, being a football stadium. And look when we were right to the back and look, there he went. Oh, my God. You could just throw yourself off there. Which is a classic one. But that lived with me. Yeah. To the airport. And then I was terrified that I was suicidal. I mean, that's why it surprised me that I'd forgotten or forgotten. But I'd forgotten the genesis of it a little bit. And I was terrified. And I was like, oh, it must be crazy. And then just thoughts and images and I. I think quite visually and I just couldn't get the idea of gore and hating people out of my head. And I remember that being the time and I was like, that's not normal. And then it sort of drifted back into the background again.
- [14:45]
A
Yeah.
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B
And I think smaller issues, which I was able to get myself out of on my own, I never registered the same way that now that I've looked back I'm like, oh no. That was it. That was. I just thought I was tired. When I convinced myself for a week that me, Beyonce was a lesbian and I told her and she was like, I have. What the are you talking about? And it was just very quickly was the shame it went away and was the conversation. Right. A lot of the fields that just sort of. It just moved on to its next target is which you must be crazy. So we're back to you crazy. What if you hear voices, if you are you're suicidal or if there's no point being alive life, are you going to hate someone? And the funny thing about that is that this always seems to happen in me life when something successful happens. And I think I have such low self worth and sort of, I. I don't like myself. I've got no problem saying that. And on some level I think it's tied to self esteem. Again, I'm not a specialist in any way, but I feel like it's correct to self esteem in the way that you have created the shadow version of yourself that is the, the person you are terrified of being. Without sounding too wishy washy, but it's. That's what it felt like was happening.
- [15:59]
A
Yeah.
- [16:01]
B
And I was like, oh, right. Okay. So I am this awful human being. The way I see myself and the way I. So that was a whole big thing. Moving into ICBT and talking about what was it? Vulnerable themes and sort of meet that tried to commit suicide at one point. Which I'm sure is very relevant to my journey. You know, like it's an insanely relevant point. You know, I saw these things happening. I was like, oh my God, like it's not even that complicated. When I sort of seen it like that on a piece of paper, I was like, all right, I see. Yeah, that's why me brain talks me about a little bit, you know. Yeah.
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A
Thank you for sharing that. That's. Yeah. So the vulnerable self themes helps you sort of make sense of maybe how the past might feed into ocd.
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B
And yeah, massively, I think it was, you know, I. I had an interesting relationship with that. Not like it just like we adversarial, I'd say at times. And we got closer. I mean he's passed away now. Like he's. He's dead. But we got closer towards the end of stuff and it wasn't a bad. But he was just very harsh out of fear that like me Brother and stuff's gonna listen to this and be kicking off at the on his phone. But, yeah, I think, you know, being called, like, fat gay and stuff at a young age, and I'm a sensitive kid. I mean, I, I, I, I wasn't trying to. Yeah, yeah. I was sitting in the corner drawing flowers and playing the guitar. Like, that's, you know what I mean? So I think I would, like, take it in and going, oh, my God. And I think those things, those seeds just sort of find the right exact awful moment to sort of flower and just completely take over. And at this last time, that the reason I'm on the podcast, when the suicide stuff came up for, like, months, that was when I'd just been. My life for the first time in a long time was like, I would be successful. I was like, I was making okay money. I was able to support me and my wife. You know, we just adopted another rescue dog. I was like, everything's great. And it all came to a head on Christmas Day when I was a seat shaking in the living room, crying, telling me why to get me sectioned. I was like, you need to get receptioned. I'm actually insane. Like, this is what's happening. I mean, this isn't good. A good way to deal with it, but I still love her for it. She just poured a shot of whiskey and gave me a fat of Guinness. We're cooking for, like 10 people. Yeah. And I know what this is. I'm not being insensitive. I'm just, I'm not. Because we know what this is. So we can either sit here and discuss it and keep giving it more and more weight, and it'll ruin the rest of your day. And then tomorrow you'll be thinking about how it ruined that day. She went, oh, it's Christmas day. Go have a shot and have a beer, and we're cooking a turkey. And. But you know, I was like, I was like, shaking, like, okay. And the funny thing is, when I did this shot, it's by don't deal with your OCD and alcohol. For anyone listening. I honestly say I've done that more than a few times. It's never better the next day, but. And before I even let me bloodstream, because I knew it was about to kick in, it so much of it just dropped away like, like untend. And I was like, all right, I just need to get on with it. By the end of the day, I was sitting laughing with family and whatever else. But I think a pressure and a Christmas was Coming. And we were cooking for everyone, and we just adopted, like, a feral. Like a feral rescue dog when this was all happening. So we were dealing with a dog we couldn't stroke. And I'm, like, sitting in the corner, like, completely sort of, like, cut off from the world. I can. I can only imagine what my wife is going through in this period. He's fine now. He's like me soulmate. He's like. He's making me spit his animal. We both got better together, and he now is a normal dog. And I'm back to reasonably being a, you know, call the Eurosees or whatever, but I'm doing okay, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I'm in a good place now. It doesn't stop weird things popping up, though. It's. I. I do laugh. I am able to now wholeheartedly laugh at my own intruder thoughts. So a long time to get there. But if, like. And also my friends being really helpful. I remember when I was a pedophile, you know, classic, classic theme, and I said to my friend, I'm like, yeah, sort of convince myself I'm a pedophile. And, like, he spat a bit of a trink out and went, Sorry, you're 35. Yeah. He went, so, like, pedophiles, I'm pretty confident. Don't wake up at 35 and go, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, kids. It's like, that's not how. That's not how this happens. I was like, it's a pretty solid point, actually, when your intrusive thoughts go up against cold, hard logic. It's really. It's funny. Sort of watch them squirrel away from the spotlight and they'll find a new way in, you know?
- [21:00]
A
But, yeah, yeah, yeah, good stories there. And it sounds like your wife really did a great job of staying calm, not getting pulled into the content of OCD and being like, we know what this is. Let's focus back in on our life and live that.
- [21:19]
B
I now realize she was doing the exact right thing. And it can feel very insensitive at the time, like. Like, fuck you. Listen to me. I'm terrified and I'm scared that I'm going insane. They're like, no, you're not right, let's go back in the kitchen. And I'm like, no, let's talk about how insane I am. And she's like, no, let's go back in the kitchen. It turns out she was doing the exact right thing. She did do psychology in university and knew a little tiny bit about it. And then she because she's a bit of a nerd as well. She's. She looked into it and was like, oh okay. I'm not, I'm not giving them any. You can. I'm allowed to tell her what the choosing thought is. And then we just. Did we. For a while I was allowed to discuss it for 30 seconds and then it went down to 10 seconds and then it was like you just tell me and we just don't even. Yeah, like oh yeah, I think we're pedophile. Okay, so tonight we're having spaghetti bolognaise and you go all right. Okay. It's just like it's a non issue. But I think that's shame though. It's just removing shame from like there's nothing to say to it. That was scared basically.
- [22:14]
A
Yeah.
- [22:15]
B
I think that's what the fear is of a lot of people don't seed is that once I divulge this information the world is going to take me on face value for what that means and not having the right language or prism to view it through like if like people's lives being ruined because they haven't been able to. The listener needs to know what it is as well in order for it to not be. If I turned it out to me mom when I was 14 and said I'm scared of killing someone, I don't know what she would have. And she's like an old school scouts mom and I love it a bit and she probably would have listened to this but she didn't have the tools and she won't mind me saying I don't think. And she's tried the best to learn what it is and I'll deal with it but it is different. I think it was hard for me family to. Yeah, I assumed he thought I was being dramatic but I think, I think that's okay. You know I had, I had my network around me and I had a fantastic therapist. I don't mind saying his name on here friendly in Liverpool. He's suffering with this. But George Maxwell on Rodney street, absolutely just within. He was like we're gonna. If this doesn't work by the end of like 12 sessions we switch tack. We will get through this. There'll be a way. And lucky for me, inference based was just bang straight in. Did me homework and understood it straight away.
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A
Yeah but key, key phrase you said there was. Did my homework.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
It doesn't get done a lot of the time, you know and, and it's so important
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B
I think being aware of what this was I, I, I knew there was no way out of this. I mean, this sounds really dumb, but I thought to myself, if I can thinky way into this box, I need to be able to think me way back out again. Like I am just me. And despite having no cd, I'm not like spectacular or different to anyone else. We're all, you know, brains and skeletons and nervous systems. It so I was like, okay, people have had this, people have fixed this. So I need to find my way of doing that. I think you've got to get creative sometimes. Mine is being unabashedly honest about what's going on inside my head, but which is probably pretty for me, family and friends. But, you know, we make fun of it now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Homework was important.
- [24:31]
A
Yeah, yeah. He's in his heart. And I appreciate it's hard for some people in some situations, but it's just worth re, re emphasizing that. Yeah, I mean, look, I didn't do homework the whole time I was at school and I basically failed my GCSes. And it wasn't until I scraped into uni by writing a letter that I actually started working hard, doing my homework, quote unquote. And I did really good. The only difference was the homework.
- [24:56]
B
Well, it's, and also intelligence is such a God. I mean, don't have to go. That's a whole completely different social issue, but different types of intelligence. I mean, I was good at just art, but I think really it's about being inquisitive. And if I'm being honest, that's what got, I think got me out of the woods and spent such a long time in a bad place. I was excited to do the homework. I was like, you've got him. You've got real study backed information about this to give me. Give me all of it. Give me all. I'm gonna read every word 15 times. I want to know exactly what is going on. Plus it also helps me with other people when I'm talking to them and sort of, not that I'm a therapist and I tell people to go to professional help, but at least being able to see the delineating lines for anxiety, sl, ocd, slash depression. And these sort of things are like, it's overlapping.
- [25:44]
A
Yeah.
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B
What they cause it's like anxiety is similar, I suppose, in a lot of ways where you'll get trapped on stuff. But yeah, it's just, it's nice to have that. I now have to work sheets myself, you know, to. Yeah. And I think when I go on holiday and I have the thought in the back of me that, oh my God, what if I want to. The fear isn't that I have the thoughts anymore. The fear is what if I go back to that place? So it's. I'm not scared of thoughts anymore. There's no thought that I think I could have that truly mess me up. It's. Oh God, I don't want to go back to. What if there is something that I don't. I haven't created yet. Like a scenario I haven't created in my mind to put me straight back in that jail cell. That's what worries me now. But also, you know, more time you worry about it.
- [26:34]
A
Yeah. And. And because you're not, you don't care about the thoughts anymore, there's a good chance you're increasing your chances of not going back to that place.
- [26:44]
B
Took a while to. Yeah. You know, I got into meditation for a while. Yeah. I think took a while to get there. And I think doing meditation and really getting into the idea of letting. Trying it was it meta cognitive thinking is like immediately able to allow yourself to step a little bit outside of the stream. The second I sort of started practicing that it. It was. It changed the game again. I don't think it sounds to anyone on here like it's like you sound like an easy ride. I do make light of this. It was bad when it was bad to the point of running into the kitchen and putting a knife to me wrist and going like checking myself, like almost daring myself to do it. Some very dark scenarios.
- [27:25]
A
Yeah.
- [27:26]
B
But I am maybe trying to focus on the upswing a little bit because I was just very lucky. And it still happens on a daily basis. It's still absolutely with me every single day. You know, classic stuff that I now know. My classic themes still pop in but it's just doesn't just not let them be as sticky.
- [27:43]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. That's interesting. So. So yeah, it comes up for you still. But you're able to just sort of let it go, move on, see it for what it is.
- [27:53]
B
And there's been a few instances that are not attached to me. Old themes that then sort of hoodwink me. And I won't realize that. Yeah, I won't realize I'm having like a spike. Maybe it's like a weekend. And then I'm like, oh you bastard. That's exactly. So I'll convince myself that I'm getting sacked from my job. That everyone who works for the company hates me. Went to a Christmas Party. And I just lie in bed and just replaying the entire evening. What did I say? Who was it talking to? I said too much. I'm definitely getting sacked. They're just being nice to me over Christmas. And then. And to the point where I'd like go to write an email saying, look, I'm sorry if I said something last night on the Christmas night, which I actually did do to me boss did aware that I have OCD now.
- [28:36]
A
Okay.
- [28:37]
B
Because I'm quite vocal about it on Instagram. But that was another one when I was like, sorry for. Hey, guys. I was drunk and like, what are you. What are you talking about? We all had a great time and we were all drunk. And I'm like, oh, thank God. I was like, why did I just allow myself to get that reassurance? I just didn't need to do that. Like, it's so obvious that not unbalance happened. So it's still hoodwinks for me. It's usually to do with me career now, I suppose. So it's tough a level away from like suicide or existential and move to. I suppose losing your job and your house is. Yeah, you know, it's pretty serious. But yeah, it still moves around in those departments. It's. It's fun. Found new rooms to live in, little pop house. Every now and then say, hello.
- [29:22]
A
Yeah, that's it. It's the part of your brain trying to like, protect you. And therefore it will keep changing its kind of mask to. To grab your attention because it wants you to stay safe. And as long as we can keep seeing it for what it is, as you said in the. In the Met, metacognitive thinking.
- [29:40]
B
I think that's the point. I think it was like being able to separate yourself from it. But again, it is those little sticky ones that I don't realize. I'm so used to particular themes that I do focus on. The ones that I'm not realizing are now starting to grow into a new but also trying to. I mean, this is. This is wishy washy and a bit softball trying to view me anxiety. I mean, OCD is like a person I'm being like, they are trying to. To protect me from. Certainly it. Like, that's what this is. Like this is a possibility because there might be a theme or a vulnerable thing that's happened in the past. So there is believability to add to this scenario that could equal an event. I mean, most of it's nonsense. You know what I mean? But like, there'll be two Strands of DNA in there that you keep coming back to. Especially with me dad trying to commit suicide. Of course I'm a lot lightened so of course there's going to be something inside it goes well a if you know, if he wanted to, maybe you do too. You know what I mean? So. But yeah, it's all what if the said have you got any ideation around this stuff? And I was like, oh, I've made a plan. You know, so it's, it is the fear that you might want to make a plan. And I was like, yeah. I think weirdly someone saying that out loud was like, oh, I'm scared of the idea, I'm not scared of suicide. Yeah, explain that to a family members insane. Like you're scared of the concept of an idea rather than an idea. It's just like.
- [31:11]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, good point. Well you shared how the, the initial therapist was like really drilling down on the suicidal obsessions. Because I guess for a therapist that doesn't understand OCD or understand OCD in any great detail, they're probably going to hear what you've said and thought oh, he does want to hurt himself. And obviously that's exactly triggering for people.
- [31:38]
B
I think also then. And I probably should have done my homework when I went into therapy I had no idea what I was doing. I was very much for a working class family. There's not something that happened in our like no member of my family. I mean we definitely have mental health problems in the family. That is quite. It's not funny but when asking me mom or is anyone else in the family with mental health issues. No. And like me a cousin thought the CIA was after it and like bitter wrist open and like Joe died like the first floor window of a hotel. I was like that's, that's about like. I mean that is mental. That is, that is like mental health. That's crazy what's happened there. Yeah, oh yeah, that has happened me and he's an alcoholic. Yeah. She gets very anxious. I was like right, okay. And then the other night my mom was like, oh. Before I went to sleep every night I used to have to tap me buttons on me pajamas in a very particular sequence. If I didn't do that five times, I could go to sleep. I looked at him. How have you never brought this up to me? Like that's like. That's like classic like TV go cv. How have you never so never talked about, you know, whatever else. I love being unfortunate guru and lay it with it. But again, yeah, it's Sorry, I've completely forgot the point I was making. Oh, my God. I was just going into a completely different place.
- [32:59]
A
Keep going. Whatever. Whatever's on your mind.
- [33:02]
B
Sorry for anyone who's listening to this. But yeah, it was. Yeah, so it was like mental health and everyone else in our family. It was never really discussed in anything else. So. Therapist. Yeah, that's what. Back on stuff. Didn't know what I was doing after that session the last time I went to go and see them. And by the way, up until that point, I sent me friends to her and she's an amazing, beautiful person and desperately wants to help. So this isn't a negative reflection on it as a person, but I looked at a bio, which I probably should have done when I first signed up, and was anti cbt, like the other side of the stream to it, like, going, no, no, we can get into issues and figure it out by getting to the emotional resonance of these things. And I'm sure it's very valuable for a lot of people. After realizing what I had, I was like, oh, I'm actively going in. I'm putting more pressure and more weight on these thoughts. But the idea is, is to be able to look at them and realize it's your roots to them. It's not the thought that was a massive. So, yeah, talk therapy was dangerous. It was getting to a dangerous place where I was walking out. Worse, me head spinning, going, I must be suicidal. It was like almost swaying me to believe that that's where I didn't want to be. Even though we caught. And you didn't.
- [34:19]
A
Yeah.
- [34:21]
B
Yeah. That was very strange. Yeah, Very, very strange.
- [34:24]
A
Yeah. Well, like you said, you, you. I mean, you said earlier, I maybe should have done more research, but we don't. In. In those places, we find the first therapist that can help us. Not everyone, obviously, but I did that. I was like, you know, and they kind of said they weren't of OCD. They kind of didn't. They were kind of CBTish. But. But it's you. You do what you can with what you have, you know, and then you learn and then you do better. And.
- [34:53]
B
Yeah, especially with money as well. I mean, like, oh, yeah, I was fortunate enough. Yeah, yeah. It's part of fortune not to be able to pay for private. But I made concessions in my life where, okay, this is more important. Not everyone can do that. And. And the nhs, there's a lot of people who care in there, but they just haven't got the ability to. I missed the left wing I'm not going to go into all that, but there needs to be more money put into that. Yeah. And fully old. Talking to me. Nurse, proper on medication. Funnily enough, as a little side note, she asked me, though, you've got ocd, apparently, and as a medication working, I'm on acetelepram of 5 milligrams. I would like to come off it, don't have a can when discussing OCD with it, and tell her what it was. I watched lectures and sort of psychologists and scientists talk about it and she was like, you know more about this than, like, I think some of the people in this GP office know about. I was like, I, you know, you've got to learn about what's going on. But again, in a moment of panic, you're not going to go, especially if you don't have the right language to try and figure out what you need, especially if you don't know what's wrong with you in the first place. How'd you fix a problem if you don't know what it is? So it's a shame that I had to go through it that way. But, yeah, you know, it got me where I needed to go. Yeah, eventually.
- [36:11]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're right. Like, to get the right answers, you've got to know what questions to ask and you don't know what questions to ask if you don't know what's going on.
- [36:22]
B
I just thought I had generalized anxiety and for a long time, being a very anxious person, I mean, actually, yeah, I became obsessed with my heart about two ablations, two heart procedures, and. And that became a massive thing in my life. It's checking me pulse. Like, me wife can see me, just check me pulse. And I became obsessed. I could feel me heartbeat in my chest and I can't believe I didn't mention that one. That was from the age of 16. I was 16, my heart went 200 beats a minute for no reason. And then it finally got fixed. Like, go off, on, off and on, off and on, stuff. Certain triggers and stuff. And then it got fixed in a second ablation where they go inside, you know, wait for that one. It's a horrific experience. They go for your groin and then. Yeah. What? Oh, yeah, yeah, they go for your groin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're awake so you can see it, you have the screens. It's insane. Like, it is quite literally the worst possible scenario and you'd have to just alive in the chair when they're doing it.
- [37:22]
A
They give you an eye mask. At least see you down after.
- [37:25]
B
Did they put like a K just so you can't see your bottom half?
- [37:31]
A
I like, like when you get an
- [37:32]
B
emergency or a C section and then there was like nine screens with the like the X ray going. So I could see them going inside me half valves and stuff and I'm like just. I don't want to. I don't need to see that. Like, I don't need to know what's going on. But that became a massive problem in life where I wouldn't have any palpitations and I would just became. I became healthy. So funny. I've started to try and think back over the things. But yeah, health anxiety was a massive one completely as well. So yeah, it's. I've been fraught with it the entire life. Not known. Thought I was just being dramatic because that's what I was pretty much told I was and then realized I wasn't being dramatic and I was having panic attacks on a regular basis. Yeah.
- [38:16]
A
Wow. And you mentioned meditation. At what point did you start doing that and like in what way did you learn it and practice it?
- [38:28]
B
There's a guy called Dan Harris who wrote a book called 10% better.
- [38:33]
A
I think so.
- [38:33]
B
I think, yeah. I remember trying to get. When I was trying to get through this, my wife, she read that book and she went, look, you know, this is not necessarily the exact book you're having, but it's just a story about someone trying to overcome. I think a big version of this thing had happened in a massive panic attack a lot in national television. And it just like ruined his life until he got into meditation and he went fully down that rabbit hole. But he brought out an app called 10 Happier and it was guided meditations. And there was ones to do with anxiety and ones to do with. And I said straight to the anxiety ones. Would this essentially be an anxiety based disorder? I suppose on. I think that's what it is. Judgment after that and straight away again it was sitting down for 10, 15 minutes and calm, nice place, quiet room, breathing and a voice talking, whatever else, but ultimately coming back to your breath and learning to just pull back in again. I think there's a method of seven things like what can you taste, what can you smell, what can you hear? Yes, yeah, yeah. Five things like essentially that's what it was teaching me to do. And it, it. There's one particular episode but like a meditation about metacognitive. Like allow your thoughts to move through and you can't stop them. And there's ones in the background that you're not even aware of, they'll rise to the surface. But you've just got to let the second you try and grab them, they're just going to explode into color and flesh out. Easier said than done. Yeah, but learn to sit down and just sit with my own anxiety and my own thoughts and trying to get used to just calming. I don't have a calm mind at the best of times. Quite a twitchy person, which I imagine is probably what's coming across. But yeah, sitting down and just sitting down at yoga I found really helpful as well because you are completely focused on your body and your shape and you're taking away from. You're removing the mental part of it. It's. I need to hold this pose. I just found a very cycling any and that got me outside my own head. Basically. It's a form of meditation at the end of the day. Yeah, but yeah, it was. I apologize. I apologize if this is not a very good interview, by the way. I apologize. It's very good.
- [40:49]
A
Yeah. And I'm not going to reassure you again on that.
- [40:53]
B
Yeah, yeah. Okay, fair enough. Yeah,
- [40:57]
A
yeah. So we're like meditation and stuff. At what point did that come. Had you started that prior to your therapy? Was it after or during?
- [41:06]
B
Before. Okay. So that was something that I knew that was cheap after the cheap and that's what you're going for. But it was, it was accessible to reading this book and trusting. Reading this book and trusting him and being like, all right, I think he knows what he's talking about a bit. I'm a bit lost here. Got the app and I just started doing it. Sort of a bit blind, but even every now and then, still now I'll just sit down and I don't need a. A guided one. Just to set the time on my phone and just allow myself to sneak away. But also I draw a lot and I find that is something that used to be a safety net for me as a kid as well when these things were happening. It's just a formal meditation of focus on one thing, be very deliberate about what you're trying to do and allow yourself to just focus on one thing for a little bit. I play music. I play, I play. I'm sure you can see the guitars. It's like a way of just turning off the noise for a little bit. That's what meditation sort of turned into. But combined with the inference based CVT is something I've talked to a lot of people about and I found this to Be a massive help. So it was about disrupting what it felt like to me was disrupting the pathways that it was creating. And if you remove one Lego brick from that path, it's like there's none of this makes sense anymore.
- [42:24]
A
Yeah, true.
- [42:26]
B
Being able to see that. Oh the jumping off point was this specific moment I think the therapist called crossing the bridge.
- [42:32]
A
Yeah.
- [42:33]
B
When you're now walking into imagination land.
- [42:36]
A
Yeah.
- [42:36]
B
And just realizing that you're on the bridge, even if you don't pull away, just recognize that that's where we're going is already such a massive helping. Not letting yourself spiral into days. Just being trapped. A big one. That was. That was massive. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [42:57]
A
Yeah. Good, good recalling of icbt which shows you've learned it and taken it on board. So what was I gonna say there? Yeah. Look, I think you know, hearing what you're saying when you said earlier, I don't. Don't like myself and I'm okay saying that or something. Something like that.
- [43:14]
B
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [43:17]
A
Because I know you're saying it jokingly but equally I know you mean it. Right.
- [43:21]
B
That's you know, I 100 mean it. I. I'm most self deprecating person you'll ever meet. I mean it actually annoys me wife quite a lot.
- [43:30]
A
Yeah.
- [43:31]
B
To be nice to myself for two seconds and you might visibly see me cringe while I do it is like. I know I'm okay at my job and I'm okay at playing the guitar and drawing stuff. You know, and I've got friends and all this stuff and I, I find it really hard to be nice to myself. I think for me a big place. It turns out that a lot of nice people who have really good values and don't think they're good enough, it would make sense logically to move on to. Well then ocd. Taking advantage of a mind like that of being. Well, yeah. You are a piece of. Actually you are awful. You're an awful human being. I thought I was. I knew it. I absolutely knew it. You know, it's like, I think that's what it was for me. Yeah. Being like ginger and I'm double because I'm bald as well. So that's fun. Right. And then like, you know, being overweight, a bit overweight and stuff, that's like. It's just doesn't matter now if I grew me a bath. Doesn't matter if I lost weight. Doesn't matter if it's. There'd be something else to attack myself about you.
- [44:38]
A
It would never be enough. Right.
- [44:41]
B
I also hate people who are smug. It really annoys me when someone's like yeah, I'm great. I'm like, ah, you like it's just. Just like. So maybe again there's probably a ball of stuff. I probably do need to go to a talk that I'm just about with this. Why do.
- [44:56]
A
Well that's what I was going to bring up right. Like if we were. Obviously I'm not formulating right now as a therapist. I'm in podcast mode. But like if this was like session one, I just met you and you were like, oh, you know, I'm here for whatever reason. Part of me would be thinking working on this, this view of yourself would especially in the case of OCD because I can see it being a trigger for future stuff. Like I'm not saying it will be by the way. I'm just saying it would be a consideration of like. And not only that, forget ocd. Just your quality of life would improve greatly if you could view yourself in a better way and work 100 I
- [45:36]
B
want some of my interests here with a therapist is to go. Yeah, I know it's annoying for me as well. I mean I know for a fact when I have a kid I am gonna had a rough time only talk to your wife about it. I went that is the next big one for me. I already know I can see the wave. Like if we have a child, like it's gonna be oh, I'm a pedophile. Oh, I want to kill the kid. Oh, I'm a piece of oh, I'm gonna lose the job. All that stuff that is now gonna matter even more. Oh I'm just bracing myself for that one. I'm just. I'm ready later. Yeah.
- [46:10]
A
I think with the the skills through mindfulness and icbt I think you'll deal with all that. But I think I what comes to my mind it's just because of therapy. I use compassion. Focused therapy I think would be really good for you. I predict or something that just teaches compassion. But I like CFT because it has lots of skills and practices which might be relevant for you to work through that stuff and connect with our different voices. So you would get to know this voice that's like beating you up and self deprecating and you would bring in and raise this other voice that's supporting you and gradually you'd start to appreciate yourself.
- [46:49]
B
And no, I. I know it's really annoying about it as well is like when you have especially a idiot level understanding Understanding of it like myself I am so aware of the mechanics of these things going on. Like I will work seven day weeks if I need to make more money so that we can go on a holiday. I will be early for any appointment I will any of that stuff cuz it's for somebody else. If I need to go to the gym, what's the point? I, I don't matter, it doesn't matter, you know what I mean? It's like not a big deal. I, I'm trying to turn that around start to go in the gym. I'm actually looking forward to going tomorrow which is a crazy thing for me to say out loud but I realized this me wife literally the other day I was just like if you need me to be somewhere I'll go and I'll be there and I'll do me best at it. But if it's self driven just sort of the motivation just to better myself isn't there as much you know there's upside and downsides that can be explored
- [47:50]
A
and in CFT they call it like fears, blocks and resistances and I think Paul Gilbert was the founder of IT and I think he said something along the lines of the blocks and barriers to therapy are the therapy. So like that makes sense, you know. So yeah, it's just something to consider. It's not, it doesn't have to be cnc but just working on that stuff I think would serve you and you deserve it more importantly. Right? No, yeah, yeah like yourself at least somewhere.
- [48:20]
B
I think it was funny. I think it was funny though. It was like when we talked about maybe I thought we go back to therapy for literally self hatred or self love.
- [48:28]
A
Yeah.
- [48:28]
B
I was like oh just look, I feel better, I just can't be bothered just for a couple like about a year just give. I just, I just need to be awake. I don't know what's going to happen. I'll do the work, I'll go through it all, I will feel better. But it's such a, like a. And this is very honest and so the counter's intuitive but it's just a lot isn't it to like okay and I know what it feels like now because I've done this a couple of times. It's like okay yeah let's go and do the work. You know what I mean? It's like but again, once again that's feeding to the idea that I'm trying to do for myself and just absolutely not so like yeah it's hard work.
- [49:05]
A
Therapy is hard Work, even when it's not ERP or icbt, it's, it's. Any type of therapy is hard work because you're going into areas people don't want to go. It's hard to change oneself or, or work through stuff.
- [49:21]
B
And so I just wanted to say out loud, like, I know, like I probably haven't expressed like the darkness of what I went through maybe as much as should that. But I think the stuff I say to people that I speak to in person is like, just like it is conquerable. Nothing like be awesome like over the top movie moments, but it's like it is conquerable and it can be controlled to an extent and you can learn easily to live with it. And I know when I was listening to this podcast, but I was in the depths of it. I thought I was just broken forever. And it's so easy to believe that if I can talk to myself back in that period, like this episode came out from the future, it would be just someone to go, look, it's gonna be all right. You will be okay. Just keep working. Just keep pushing. It's, it's you. It is you. You, you have ocd and that's fine. Know it, understand it, lear about it and do the work. I think that's all I would have at it here. And you can laugh about it like I, I, I, I all the time when I'm having a pint me mate. I'm like, you wouldn't believe some of the mad that I will just conjure up out of thin air to torture myself. Like, it's like, it's insane. It, it's, it can be funny when you're in a good place. Yeah. To laugh at it. You know, I'm a new shame to be able to humorize it in a way where it hits less hard when it comes back again. It was very important for me.
- [50:45]
A
I agree, I agree. Yeah. I was going to ask you words. I hope so. That was a good, good, good, good words there. Yeah. And look, you know, not to make the episode political, but Everton or Liverpool. You mentioned football earlier.
- [51:00]
B
I was, I was a very emotional kid. I, I don't watch football.
- [51:04]
A
Okay.
- [51:05]
B
I was just one of those. I'm not a very boyish boy. It's just. Yeah.
- [51:09]
A
Because you mentioned the intrusive on the stadium.
- [51:13]
B
Oh, yeah. Right. So I got dragged to that, My brother's stuff. Yeah, it was, that was Hamburg. It was, yeah. And that was, it was in Hamburg FC stadium when, when. And I was wearing all black and I nearly Got like whipped into the same crowd as the Ultras, which I'm all aware of because I was weird. I was like, so that was a terrifying experience.
- [51:32]
A
Yeah.
- [51:33]
B
But yeah, no, I don't watch football unfortunately. It always kills cab conversations. Yeah, they go, you watch the match? Nope. It's like, okay, silence for the rest of the journey.
- [51:45]
A
Yeah, I bet.
- [51:46]
B
Especially in Liverpool. Yeah, yeah.
- [51:49]
A
Love that football.
- [51:50]
B
I like the Beatles. Everyone loves the Beatles.
- [51:57]
A
Cool. You got a billboard in Liverpool. What do you want written on that billboard?
- [52:07]
B
Got it. I think everyone, you will be okay. Yeah. I think like you know what's interesting? In Liverpool, around the time when I was going through therapy, someone was going around the city center with spray paint writing you aren't your thoughts. And like it was, I think someone with OCD or someone with OCD very close to them was put on like inspirational like OCD guerrilla tactics around the city. I've seen it in massive letters. You are not your thoughts. And I think that's. Yeah, you're not your thoughts and it'll be okay. I think that's would have been nice to hear.
- [52:44]
A
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [52:45]
B
Yeah.
- [52:46]
A
Well you did hear it, right?
- [52:47]
B
Yeah, yeah. Did you? Yeah, I saw it on a brick wall. Yeah, yeah. Someone did it for me. Someone did it for me. Yeah.
- [52:53]
A
Nice. And if you could pick up the phone and call the. 20 year old you, what would you tell him?
- [53:10]
B
It gets better. And yeah. What would I say? This stuff usually makes me cry. When we therapist told me to speak to child version of me, I was like, oh my God. Yeah, it, it gets better, it gets easier. Life gets so much better being a 20 year old. But yeah, yeah, it gets better.
- [53:34]
A
Yeah.
- [53:35]
B
And again you, you will be okay. Like I think that's it. Like I have plenty of stupid tattoos but I think I am going to get one if tattooed on my palm just to remind me every time I thought I'm just go, oh yeah, yeah. I mean I'm covered in shape so it's okay for me. But yeah, you'll be okay. Yeah.
- [53:53]
A
Nice, nice, yeah.
- [53:55]
B
Again, I know you're not going to reassure me. I was really worried about this because I was like, I'm going to make a list, I'm going to do this. I thought, no, I'll start to formalize it. And I went, I just want people to hear that you can laugh about it and you can be open about it on a very brutal way it turns out it's the easiest way to get there. And I was like, oh, this is going to be A episode. That's what this is going to be.
- [54:12]
A
So it's been good. It's been good. Yeah. Yeah. It's really great to see how you took to the therapy and I know that because of the way you're talking about it, you clearly get it, which is a good sign for me. When someone can leave therapy and really talk about the kind of nuances of it, especially therapies like ICBT, ERP, etc. It shows they've really grasped it and that's an important thing because it means they'll remember it into the future, hopefully. But yeah, no, it's been awesome speaking with you and thanks for sharing your story.
- [54:47]
B
Honestly, thank you for letting me ramble on this, on this very serious, life changing, helping also just very quickly, what you do is amazing and it helped me. And I know I listened to an episode the other day, a guy said the same thing. It was a game changer, making me realize that I'm not alone and I'm not the only one dealing with this. It makes you feel so less small when you realize that. So thank you for doing this.
- [55:13]
A
Thank you for listening to this week's podcast and thank you to our patrons who help make this episode possible. And if you would like to find out more about Patreon and the rewards and benefits, then there will be a link in the episode description. If you enjoy the OCD Stories podcast and would like to support us, please subscribe and rate the show wherever you listen to the podcast. And thank you to NOCD for supporting our work. If you want to find out more about nocd, you can click the link in the episode description and quick disclaimer. Guys, this podcast is not therapy.
- [55:42]
B
It's.
- [55:43]
A
It is not a replacement for therapy. Please seek treatment from a trained professional and until we speak, take care.