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- [00:00]
A
You're listening to the OCD Stories podcast hosted by me, Stuart Ralph. The OCD Stories is a podcast dedicated to raising awareness and understanding around obsessive compulsive symptoms. I do this through interviewing inspired therapists, psychologists and people who have experienced OCD. Welcome to the OCD stories and welcome to episode 535 of the podcast. And in this one I got on Michael, who has kindly agreed to share his OCD story with us. And in particular we talk about nightmares in childhood, relationship themed ocd, the onset of his ocd, harm themed ocd, getting therapy, experiencing a health condition, medical trauma, health anxiety, balancing real health conditions with health anxiety, trauma and OCD and living life and making choices, doing exposure response prevention therapy for health anxiety in the midst of an actual health issue, self compassion and much more. And thanks to our podcast partners. Nocd. If OCD is interfering with your life, NOCD can help their licensed therapists specialise in exposure and response prevention therapy. The most proven therapy for OCD with NOCD, effective treatment that is 100% virtual, is available for children and adults with OCD and most members can get started within seven days on average. No hassle, just real science backed help and support between sessions. Begin your journey@nocd.com or I'll put the link in the episode description. So I really enjoyed chatting with Michael and hearing his story. I think he brings something new to the podcast that I've not really explored much as of yet. So thank you to him for that and being open and of course, thank you to you guys for listening as always, you know, it means a lot to me. Without further ado, here is Michael. Welcome to the podcast, Michael.
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B
Thanks Stuart. It's great to be with you. I appreciate the time.
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A
Yeah, it's good to have you on. I've obviously had a few emails over the time, so it's nice to get you on and hear your story now. So, yeah, as you know, I'd love to hear your OCD story.
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B
Thank you. And before I, I start, Stu, I just wanted to say thank you for the podcast and the content. You know, your, your, your contribution really is, at least for me, you know, a light in the dark. And I've certainly, you know, done my fair share of listening to different podcasts and there's some great ones out there, but there's something about yours that I think is really deeply human. You offer so many unique perspectives, I think, which gives, you know, those of us in the community a little bit more context and nuance. Sometimes I think things can get A little bit black and white in my experience in OCD recovery. So I just really wanted to. To say thank you so much for everything that you. That you give us, man. It's awesome.
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A
Thank you. No, that means a lot. I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you
- [03:11]
B
so. Yeah, I. I've wanted to share my story for some time, and, you know, there's a couple of reasons I want to do that. First is, you know, there was a time when things were. Were very, very dark. And if you would have told me two years ago that I would have had my life back to where it is right now, I would have probably said it's impossible. So if anybody out there is really struggling, just does not feel any sense of hope, I can totally relate to that. And I just wanted to say there is hope and it can get better. I remember when I was first diagnosed with OCD. I was in my late 30s or early 40s, and there wasn't a lot out there, and. And that has just changed dramatically, and I'm grateful for that. But I remember I was at the IOCDF conference in Chicago. I don't know, it was, you know, early 2000s, 2012, 15, somewhere in there. And I. I had suffered, you know, for 15 plus years. I didn't know I had OCD. I discovered I had OCD, thankfully, and I went to that conference and I remember the elevator down and there were some parents in there, and they were talking about their kid who was upstairs in the room, and they were afraid to come, come out and come down, you know, and I just remember thinking, if ever I get the opportunity to share my story, to help one person, I need to do that. And, and I know you had Jeff Bell on recently, and Jeff and Jeff's book were one of the first things that sort of led me to my own, you know, journey. You know, I think the other reason I want to share is I'm going to talk. You know, there's probably going to be a lot of triggering content for people because I'm going to talk about what happened to me when one of my worst fears came true and the subsequent sort of collision of PTSD and OCD and how that made recovery pretty unique. So just backing up, you know, to. To childhood. I, I don't think that I had OCD as a kid. I had some anxiety, but I just don't recall anything being, you know, really debilitating or really, really interfering with my quality of life as a kid. But I, I do remember this recurring nightmare that I had, and I'm sure, the therapist in you is like sweet nightmares. Let's unpack those. But I was standing at the bottom of the stairs in my childhood home and, you know, I had that sensation that my body was just frozen and I couldn't move. And behind me was just this darkness. And there was a little crack of light from the door at the top of the stairs. And I remember just all these monsters kind of starting to come slowly out of the dark, getting closer and closer. And I was trying to get, you know, up the stairs, but I couldn't move. And just as the monsters were about to grab me, I would wake up in just terror as a kid, you know, and I'll. I'll come back to that later. Now as I sort of get into, you know, the life lessons I've. That OCD has thankfully taught me. I think it was probably in my twenties that I first started to notice what I now look back on as, as rocd. And in that it started to really kind of come into my relationships wondering if this was the right relationship. And, you know, it was pretty distressing, but it definitely was not something that was keeping me from, you know, having relationships, being in relationships, enjoying my quality of life. And I saw a therapist at that time and there was no mention of OCD whatsoever. So, you know, I'm in my 50s now, so that was, you know, 30 years ago that I first started to notice some of the, the pure O. Ocd, which is something that I've definitely, you know, I've had most subtypes, as a lot of us have, but it was, it was manageable. OCD really, really set its hooks in me for the first time in my 30s. I like you. I'm a healthcare provider. I'm a patient facing health care provider. I do procedures all day long. I had chosen in my 30s to go back to school and get my master's in health care. And in my first, my first trimester of clinic when I was first treating patients, I got a call. That patient had, was in the hospital that I had worked with, and there was something very serious going on with, with that patient. And the attending surgeon had mentioned that it may somehow possibly be related to what I had performed on the patient. And I know so many of us talk about that switch that just clicked and that was it. You know, I was terrified that I had caused somebody harm by accident or by something that was beyond my control. I was just overwhelmed with, with a sense of guilt. Even though later, you know, the patient said no, probably wasn't from what you did. And this could have been from anything, but somehow in my mind I had just latched onto it and started obsessively researching and you know, that's when sort of the, the themes of, of scrupulosity, responsibility. Oh. As well as contamination and reverse contamination. You know, I, I knew as a healthcare provider there are certain types of bugs. You just don't want to get sort of, you know, antibiotic resistant organisms that are among us and there's not much we can do about it. But, but not knowing that I had OCD and obviously never wanting to cause harm, I just became more scrupulous, more fastidious, more responsible in an attempt to, you know, rule out the possibility that somehow something might be an adverse reaction of something that I, you know. You know, did. And I was seeing a therapist at the time, a different therapist at the time. There was no mention of OCD at all. I mean, I remember like coming home from a shift in the hospital and having to, you know, leave my shoes outside because I didn't want to track in anything from, you know, my workday that my, you know, my niece and nephew might be exposed to as they're crawling around on the floor, having to put my clothes immediately in the washing machine and you know, really wondering if I could continue in this sort of new pursuit as a health care provider. But somehow I white knuckled my way through it, you know, I mean, just forced, erp. Without knowing I was what I was doing. And eventually, you know, that hyper vigilance started to calm down and I started to find some joy in my practice. But in the back of my mind, I think, you know, I was still, still afraid and things were going pretty well until I was later in my late 30s, May probably, I was probably early 40s at this time. Yeah. And that was my first introduction into some of the more taboo thoughts in, in that pure o bucket. And I had no idea what was going on. I was, I was so distressed, so full of shame and guilt and, and had no idea what was happening to me. I certainly didn't know that it was ocd. I didn't know where these thoughts were coming from. And I had stu. I had spent a fair amount of time around mindfulness, around Zen Buddhism. So, you know, I was very understanding of, of, you know, thoughts as thoughts, but these were different and I just didn't know where they were coming from. And in. That led me to Dr. Phillipson's work, who I, I've, I've become a fan of and I've Listened to him on your show. He's awesome. And also the OG Chrissy Hodges, who is amazing, of course, just super courageous and did some coaching with her later and I'll kind of get back to that. But again, once I learned kind of what was going on and I'm like, oh, that's what this is really. There were still, you know, oh, that also led me to. So that's when I kind of realized that I think I have ocd. I have to find an OCD therapist. And, and at the time. So this would have been around, I don't know, 2009, 10, somewhere in there. The IOCDF website had only two providers in my state basically that specialized in OCD. And I saw one of them and he was like, he didn't even mention ocd really. He's like, this is going to take a long, long time and you know, it's going to take, I don't know, months, if not years. And you know, it, it's out of pocket expense. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna go check out the other guy. And I happen to see like one of the pioneering OCD therapists in. In the state, guy named Vern Devine, who has since retired. And that that's when I first really understood what was, what was going on. Like, I had suspected it. I had also suspected. I'm like, well, maybe everybody else who has these sort of intrusive thoughts has ocd, but actually maybe I'm the, the one who's the monster. You know, he just, yeah, he was, he did not give much reassurance. I think he said, you know, one time I'm going to give you reassurance and that's it. And beyond that, you know, we won't do it. But it was the first time we started doing formal erp. It was just, you know, the level of insight changed everything for me. And very quickly Stu I was able to kind of bounce back from that and go about my life with OC being mild background noise, feeling I could stand up to it at any time pretty much if it, if it came up with some just really wicked twisted thought it was like, bring it on, what do you got? Is that all you got? You know, let's go and really felt like I had my life back. I, you know, besides being a healthcare provider, I also work in the theater and I do some writing and I had written a play that was produced and I was also in it. That play went to New York to have a reading at a very well known theater and so, you know, I was riding around subways and just living my life fully with, you know, just OCD was totally, if not even in the passenger seat, but it was in the trunk. You know, it was just like I, I was living a full, wholehearted life. My life was about as expansive as it could be. And that's about two and a half years ago. So around that time, I developed. An infection in my GI tract. And I had had something similar before. And I went to the, to the er, to the urgent care, and they gave me a course of pretty strong antibiotics. And very quickly, you know, I started to get better. But then about two weeks, two to four weeks after that, I started to have some pretty bad abdominal pain. And I was like, okay, that's kind of weird, you know, and then my whole GI tract just, I'm not going to get too graphic, but my whole GI tract was just not functioning at all. And I had no idea what was going on. And as a healthcare provider, I had some, some thoughts on it. But, you know, I called my primary care, sent my primary care message, who's no longer my primary care physician, and I said, hey, I'm not sure what's going on, but you know, I wanted to get your thoughts. And they were like, you need to go back into the, into the er. So I went into the er and the first thing the doctor said was, I hope we didn't give you C. Diff. Well, if you know anything about antibiotic resistant organisms and as a health care provider, you know that C. Diff or C. Difficile is one of the ones that you don't want to get. Every time you get it, you have a chance of recurrence. The mortality rate if it's untreated is not great. And it's one of those strange illnesses where the cure is also the cause. So, you know, every time you take further antibiotics, you destroy your microbiome. And you know, C. Diff is kind of everywhere in our society. You know, I figure, like, this is where a little trigger warning banner needs to come off the, come across the stage. I was talking to my therapist. I'm like, I know people are going to be triggered. She's like, yeah, they probably will. You know, but I, I was like, oh no, is that, is that what's going on? So they, they did, they did a, they did a CT scan in my abdomen and, and the physician said, you know, I don't think it's C. Diff. So we're going to put you on IV antibiotics and Send you home with a course of oral antibiotics. So I was like, okay. But then we were waiting. He was supposed to do a stool sample as well, and I had to ask for it. And he's like, oh, yeah. So I did the antibiotics, I came home and I was in a relationship at the time and my girlfriend was there and the phone rang and it was a hospital and they said, you know, your sample just came back and you have C. Diff. And I, I just, I was like, oh, my God, no. You know, I can't believe it. I was like, okay, so I guess I can take. Stop taking these antibiotics and going. Go on a different course of antibiotics. Which they were like, no, we're going to prescribe the different antibiotics, but you need to finish those other antibiotics all the way through. And I was like, well, that doesn't seem right. If this is why I went back to the error, you know, why would I be on these other antibiotics? And they were like, just take them all until they're done. And so that set in motion what was kind of the beginning of what was more of the medical trauma, which was, okay, I don't think they're giving me the right advice. I am now on three different drugs and I don't want to further destroy my microbiome knowing that this could really lead to a recurrence. So. And also it's highly contagious. Now, generally it's only highly contagious to people who are, you know, on antibiotics or immunocompromised. But needless to say, I immediately told my girlfriend to go and was, you know, kind of terrified that I was going to get someone else sick, you know, that I was going to pass it on. So I had to take time off work. I reached out to my primary care physician at the time and I told them what was going on and they were basically just like, no, just keep taking all the antibiotics. And I was like, that doesn't seem right. You know, and this is kind of the nuance also, Stu, between like health anxiety and checking and also being an advocate, you know, it's really great because what ultimately happened was I got a last minute consult with a GI physician who specializes in obviously gastro, you know, conditions. And they were like, no, I think you're right. I think what showed up on the CT scan was what I suggested, which was my previous infection. And he's like, stop taking those other two antibiotics. Finish that one and that should take care of it. And so I did and I started to get better. I was obviously Afraid that it would come back. There's about a 15 to 20% chance it could come back. But I went back to work. I was, you know, pushing back against ocd, and I was like, you know, I'm. I've done everything I can do. But then on Christmas Day, would have been two years ago, this Christmas, I got hit again and the infection came back. And so I knew now that meant the chances of it coming back again and again and again are. Were pretty bad. Now this is something that, that can be. It can kill you. It can create a lifelong challenges digestively. There's a lot of things that could happen. But this began an even deeper dive to try to get the best antibiotics and also what. What's known as FMT or fecal microbiome transplant, which I refer to lovingly as eat shit and live. Where, you know, they take the, you know, a product of healthy stool from one individual and they implant it either orally through a very specific process or, you know, they will give you a colonoscopy. But I, I wasn't eating. I was in a ton of pain. I was just riddled with anxiety. I lost 35 pounds. I could not get my doctor to advocate for me. I like, I was reading, you know, health journals and not like WebMD or. I mean, I was, like, reading, you know, as a healthcare provider, I know what to read through. And I have a dear friend who's a physician, and we were going through it together, and I laid out this plan that I just could not get any support on. And finally I was able to consult with a specialist who, who had basically laid out exactly what I was advocating for along this time. The other thing is the center for Disease Control recommends that you bleach your toilet, your shower, your light switches, your knobs, all the surfaces that people are touching. So just tell someone with ocd, you know, contamination, OCD that you need to bleach in order to prevent this from A, from getting it back or B, from, you know, spreading it, which is what I was so just deathly terrified of. And then everything came along with that. So the other thing that was coming in was like, even if I do get the treatments now, I have to try to avoid antibiotics because if I go on antibiotics for anything else, upper respiratory tract infection, strep throat, all of these things, you know, it, it. There's a chance that, you know, I could end up right back where I am. So I was, you know, bleaching obsessively. I was afraid to leave the house. I took Six weeks off work. I was pretty isolated. But I have to. I have to say, you know, the. The level of support that I got from my friends was amazing. I mean, the community of people that I had were amazing. The other thing that led. Led me to, you know, the current therapist is I was working with a therapist who said that she specialized in ocd. And because I was also dealing with trauma, she introduced emdr. But the stuff that we were focus. Focusing on with EMDR was like, stuff that happened when I was a kid. And I was like, hey, I'm. I'm terrified to leave the house here. Why are we talking about that? You know, And I was so activated, Stu. I was like, afraid rope. You know, I just. Going to their office was too much. And there was something that they said which. Which unfortunately, unfortunately. And I don't wish them any ill will, nor do I. Any of the physicians that treated me, because I know how hard it is, and I have a lot of compassion and empathy for them. But the therapist I was working with said, you know, at one point, they said, well, we're all a little ocd. And the fact that they didn't know that that was just a buzz trigger for anybody in the community, that. That is just so dismissive and not the case, was like, I don't think they do specialize in ocd. So I found somebody who specializes in both PTSD and ocd, and I have to give her a shout out. Her name is Lindsay Myron, and she is a brilliant therapist and has helped me wade through some really, really difficult water. And so I started working with her, and I also started consulting with. With Chrissy Hodges, which led me to do one of her groups. So shout out to Chrissy as well. And I. I was talking to my therapist. I was like, hey, do you have any, like, resources? Because I wasn't listening to podcasts at the time. So this was a little over two years ago, probably. And she recommended Kimberly Quinlan's podcast. And I listened to. I was scrolling through it, and I know you've had. I've had Kimberly on.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But I. I landed on an episode which was Caitlin Pinciotti and Shallow Nicely. And I know you've had Caitlin on as well. Yeah, And Caitlin did such a beautiful job talking about, you know, what we sometimes call ptocd. And she described this baseball analogy of the scene where OCD and PTSD fuse and you can't really figure out where and what to treat when. And it was like a light bulb that went off for me because for Me, Stuart, I know a lot of us are always like, you know, my theme is the worst, or, you know, I wish I had your theme. And I can understand how that has been my case, but this was just different. It's like, as soon as I'd get a, you know, a little momentum in one direction, I just would be slammed back with some pretty. Some pretty difficult things because, again, it was like a real thing that had happened to me. It wasn't just some, you know, it just wasn't some horrific. What if it was like, no, this is a real health condition. There's. Even though, you know, I did get the treatments, I took the treatments, the treatments were successful. I made it back to work. I started, you know, getting a little bit of my life back. I was still really avoiding because I'm like, I don't want to have to go through this again. And ERP was like, really felt really, honestly dangerous. Like, there were things that were so triggering of the ptsd, like going to a hospital or being around anybody who was, you know, ill and. And just being terrified that it was very, very difficult to get any kind of momentum. But once Lindsay and I started to work on, like, what's the chicken and the egg? Kind of like, what. What do we treat on any given day? I mean, I was so desperate for help, and she's so busy and so accommodating. I would like to, you know, where I live, it's like, can get 20 below. And so I would go out to my car, like, in between my own patients or, you know, after work, and I would, you know, have to be, you know, I would have, like, virtual therapy in my car while the sun is coming down and it's pitch black and I've got, like, a little miner's light on. But there was a lot of shame and guilt around it too, you know, And I think that's. I still feel that as a healthcare provider, you know, it's. It's interesting when I listen to therapists who. Who, you know, have ocd, went into OCD therapy because of their journey, I know intellectually that I'm no different from anyone else, but I think there still is a stigma. You know, even though my journey has since helped me be a better and more empathetic, more understanding healthcare provider, I still wrestle with that. You know, I'm still really kind of afraid to fully share my story, because I am afraid of stigma and judgment. But what. What started to happen was I started to. I started to get, you know, this. This sort of idea that, you know, OCD is like a war, which I'm not sure I gravitate towards right now, you know, like, how do you go to war with parts of yourself in a healthy way? But it did feel like, you know, we got to take this hill, boys, you know, And I was just taking up a little bit, like, okay, we got that. We're not going back. We're not going back. You know, we're going to get this position, reading at this position. And, you know, I know we talk a lot about. About value. And one of the things that really helped me establish value was helping to care for a family member with a chronic health care condition and knowing that I just needed to show up for them and do what needed to be done, and it didn't matter. The rest didn't matter, you know. And so about a year and a half ago, I read a beautiful book by a physician named Courtney Burnett called Difficult Gifts. And she was, like, finishing her residency. She was working in Thailand in a hospital, and she started to develop some strange symptoms. And she was later diagnosed at the beginning of COVID with glioblastoma, a very, you know, horrific brain cancer that is often untreatable. And her book is absolutely beautiful, sort of sharing her journey from, you know, diagnosis, through treatment, through recovery, into advocacy. And. And she posed this question, if you knew you only had one year left to live, what would you do? And it hit me in such a profound, dare I say, you know, without sounding woo, a very spiritual way. And it was like, holy. This is all I have. This is all I'm ever gonna have. You know, intellectually, I know and try to live my life one day at a time, but this was different. And that was the beginning of, I would say, a deeper, more profound level of recovery. And it was also around that time, Stu, that I. I became aware of in Buddhism, the five remembrances. And I'll just read through them. I wrote them down because I try to keep them front and center every day, but. But they are. I am of a nature to grow old. I cannot escape old age. I am of a nature to have ill health. I cannot escape ill health. I am of a nature to die. I cannot escape death. All that is dear to me and everyone I love are of the nature to change. There is no way to escape being separated from them. And my actions are my only true belongings. And while to some people it might sound morbid, it really, for me is a wake up call as to the fragility and preciousness of every day and how you know, choosing purpose and value and meaning in my life has been just something I have to set in motion every, every day. I mean, Philipson talks about choice and I think that that kind of what, what, what this comes down to is, is making a decision and making a choice. And now I know that sounds much easier looking back at the, you know, at the rearview mirror from where I was, but it, it's something that I also hope. And this is sort of, again, the, the silver lining of, of any one of us who've been through any kind of health crisis or whether it's physical health, emotional health, mental health, or just really difficult circumstances, is it gives us an opportunity, I think, to, to show up differently for, for the precious time that we have left. And again, like, just to bring it back when I, you know, if you were, if you were to told me when I was in the throes of it that I, I would have my life back to where I am, the level of hyper vigilance has, has just dramatically decreased. I am almost like we talk about making your life an exposure. And I still fall short sometimes. I still find myself getting triggered and wondering, you know, do. Should I do more safety precautions or should I be more careful? And that probably will be around as long as it's going to be around. But excuse me, the level of, of freedom that I have, along with the level of intense gratitude for the simplest things. Spending time with friends, going out for a cup of coffee, taking a trip. Things I just would not have been able to do two years ago without being just terrorized by my mind and all the stress chemicals that come with it. I'm just so, so grateful. I'm, you know, back at work and enjoying work again. I went back to the boxing gym. I'm in a new relationship which is absolutely wonderful and just so such a beautiful relationship. And you know, I'm starting to have, I think the opportunity like this to start to become a little bit more of an advocate, which is something that I really want to be able to do. And you know, I know you've talked about it, Jeff Bell talked about, you know, adversity into advocacy and adversity into action. And I think, you know, looking back now at ocd, you know, I wish, I wish I would have known sooner that I had it. You know, I think I'm so grateful people like you are, are doing what you do and the courage that it takes to do what you do and what everybody who speaks out and speaks up does. I think, you know, I really need to use this privilege that I've been given and this life that I've been given to try to help, you know, some other people. But I think that, to me, is really kind of the spirituality piece of it, which is, you know, seeing how many people I'm connected to through this suffering and through the recovery. I don't know who you had on the other. The other week. It was a couple weeks ago, but somebody who was in one of Philipson's groups. I don't know. Mike. I recalled it.
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A
Oh, Mike. Mike.
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B
What? Yeah. Oh, he was awesome. Yeah, he was absolutely awesome. I loved that episode. And I love the episodes, too. One of your anniversary episodes where you were hiking in. In the mountains. I. I just thought that was unbelievably beautiful.
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A
Thank you.
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B
So there is something that is, I think, very profound and very rich about recovery and that we don't have to go it alone. That I don't have to go it alone. And I'll just kind of finish up with a little piece about that. That dream that I had when I was a kid, that nightmare I remember, you know, so. So I'm alone in the dark as a little boy, and I can't walk up the stairs. My. It feels like, you know, lead is in my. All my blood vessels. I just can't move. And I'm trying to get up before the door closes. And the monsters are getting closer and closer and closer to me. And then just as the door was about to close, my dad, who passed away almost 10 years ago from Alzheimer's, he came down and he put me on his shoulders and he started walking me around to all. All these what I thought were monsters. And they all kind of morphed into this very odd, like. Almost like a Muppets, you know, the Muppets characters. And each one was kind of strange and goofy and, you know, odd and shy and funny and hilarious. And I had this moment where I learned that all those things that I was so afraid of don't need to be that. That scary when I have the help of. Of somebody else. And. And that's. That's. That's my story, man.
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A
Yeah. Thank you. That's. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Incredible story. And thank you for being so open and. Yeah, obviously, sorry you went through all that health stuff. That's, you know. Well, sorry you went for OCD firstly, but the. The physical health stuff on top was just obviously a lot. But it sounds like you really were focused and figuring a way through it and. Yeah. So a question that comes to my mind is because you mentioned sort of actually it felt with it around the house stuff. Actually doing ERP felt actually dangerous or maybe irresponsible. How did you eventually lean into it? What was it that you or the therapist did or the therapist said that helped you see that there is actually a safe way of doing ERP, even in the midst of a physical health struggle?
- [39:50]
B
Yeah, that's a great question, Stu. And you use the key word there. That still shows up for me, which is irresponsible. It still at times feels like things that I'm doing are, are irresponsible. I mean, when I think back to what it was like when I was, you know, when I was in the throes of it, anything that presented, you know, an unknown, like just foods that I was eating, you know, going to a restaurant was unthinkable for the first six months, you know, until, until I knew that some of the treatments had had kind of. There's like an eight week window after the, the FMT treatment where you're like, it's, it's considered good. And I was reassurance seeking constantly from, from my providers and that's something that had to go away. But so I would say that was one thing, the reassurance seeking from providers that I was okay and I was okay to take these risks. So I had to ask first and foremost, like, hey, I'm. I'm asking if this is something that I can do. And once we got the green light from the healthcare provider, then it was all on me. So I first started experimenting with different foods and, and not being as, you know, responsible about making sure everything was, you know, controlled by me. So going to a restaurant the first time and then, you know, not, not compulsing afterwards, I think, you know, using the silverware that they, that that was set on the table, you know, using taking things from the store and not cleaning my hands as much as I was preparing it. And it all did feel very irresponsible, even preparing a meal for another person. Like, well, what if, you know, I had not cleaned my hands good enough and what if, what if, what if? Which of course for me is the calling card for ocd. Like if the question is, what if? I have to be really diligent so doing things that, that I knew were okay, which felt a little bit risky without, you know, without the compulsing. And this is another piece to, is the rumination. You know, there was, there was a, you know, my therapist did a really nice job sort of saying, you know, you're a fish swimming through the water and there's all these hooks with bait on them. Each one is OCD hook. You have to be careful not to grab any of those hooks. And what I found was the, the obvious hooks, you know, were, were pretty, were easy to, easier to recognize, you know, as this fish swimming through the water. What was more difficult to recognize was mental compulsion. And rumination was almost like the water itself. Like I was so bathed in rumination and in, in compulsion about trying to stay safe that I didn't even realize it at first. And I know you've had some people on who've talked about the possibility that it is possible to stop ruminating. And I do believe that's true. I would say when you're activated or triggered, it's really, really difficult, you know, especially when, you know, there could potentially be real world consequences. I think, you know, if, if it feels a little too dangerous, she, so she calibrated everything into like a scale of zero. And if I was getting in that five to seven, that white knuckling it, we usually backed off. So at first it was really small victories. And this is, I'm really glad you reminded me because these are two things that I want to, I want to point out. One, there is no timeline to recovery. Yeah, I wish I would have known that and I wish people around me would have known that. I think it's very normal and human to say when am I going to get better? You know, when are you going to get better? When are you going to get your life back? But that was, that was a layer that did me no good. And I, I hope that if I ever have to experience it again, I will just let go of that and be like, you know what? I get better, when I get better, it's out of my control. I'm doing everything that's possible. And again, that self compassion, and I know that's something you talk about a lot. I was doing daily self compassion meditations. I love the work of Kristen Neff. She's got some great guided imageries. But just, you know, meeting myself with that level of compassion and realizing that what I was doing was incredibly difficult while advocating for my own physical health and my mental health, while trying to get back to work. So, you know, letting go of that and just practicing, you know, I know we use the word a lot. Radical acceptance, but not pushing too hard, too fast and recognizing that if I am, you know, in that five through seven area, it's probably, I could back off a little bit and do Things that were a little less distressing.
- [45:19]
A
Yeah, really good points. Absolutely. And you know, go back to the ERP and responsibility or irresponsibility. The key thing you said there was you got the green light from a medical professional before.
- [45:35]
B
Yep.
- [45:36]
A
Yeah. So they. Because obviously, yeah, that, that is the difference in sort of more health anxiety stuff. We do need a medical professional to have their say.
- [45:45]
B
Right.
- [45:46]
A
Yeah, as, as therapists, we need that medical approval. But yeah, and then it's on you. It was on you to then trust that and do the work, which you did. And um. And yeah, this. Thank you for sharing about the self compassion. Was there anything else that helped you like calm. Just your nervous system?
- [46:10]
B
Yeah, all, all the things we talk about. Trying to get adequate sleep, trying to spend time in nature, trying to practice mind, body breath exercises, you know, meditation, qigong. Qigong practice was a very simple qigong practice. Daily, you know, massage, which, which, which is, was an exposure, of course, in and of itself, you know, sort of two for one, I think. And time, Stuart, you know, just time. It just took time for, for my body to start to heal. I, I think I've picked up, you know, I love some of the episodes with, with you and Johnny say, and talking about the different act principles, which again sounds a lot like, you know, Zen Buddhist practice. Just a lot of those principles. Softening, certainly breath work. And I know sometimes we kind of knock breath work, compulsive breath work, which I totally understand, but there are things that are very useful to try to sort of downregulate the stress response without, you know, doing them compulsively. So sleep, how, how I think, how I move, how I eat, how I sleep, all have an effect on that. And also not, not letting you know. A therapist once said, you know, OCD is going to be testing the fence. You know, it's. It's going around testing, looking for weak places in the fence. And I still have to be kind of mindful when, when OCD might want to show up in another way. Just be like, oh, okay, there's that, you know, and I think now almost, rather than treating the OCD like it's something I need to do battle with it, it's really trying to make friends with it and just realizing, you know, that that part of me is, is probably going to be around in different ways over time and I don't need to feed it, you know, I don't need to feed it. I can observe it without judgment and it will come and it will go.
- [48:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, and that goes back to what you're saying about not viewing it as a war. It's hard to be a battle of a part of yourself.
- [48:40]
B
Yep, yep.
- [48:41]
A
Yeah.
- [48:42]
B
Yeah.
- [48:42]
A
And ultimately the OCD part's just trying to help, but.
- [48:45]
B
Yep.
- [48:46]
A
It's in overdrive and it's being annoying, but it has good.
- [48:50]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [48:53]
A
Which is, yeah, I think, hard to think about when you're in the depths of it.
- [48:57]
B
Absolutely.
- [48:58]
A
Yeah. And I don't push that as fact. People can obviously stick with the war and bully metaphor and that's completely okay by me if any of my clients want to do that. But personally. Yeah. I see it more as just trying to help and.
- [49:11]
B
Yeah.
- [49:12]
A
Because I think it makes it easier to ignore it and not rise to it. Whereas if it's something attacking me, then, well, I've got to protect myself, you know, and then it's easy to get into compulsions and everything else.
- [49:26]
B
Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's highly creative, you know, and I. There's. There's parts of it, you know, like as a writer, learning how that creative mind really creates fertile soil for, for art and for creating and for human connection, you know, so, you know, I'm, you know, there's. And it's, it's led me to where I am today. So learning how to have gratitude for everything that I've been through and, and which has allowed me to, you know, be connected with people like you and this community is a gift. Yeah.
- [50:04]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so. And like, physical, health wise, you're in a good place now.
- [50:12]
B
I am knockwood. I am doing very, very well. So there's still, you know, if, if I have to go on antibiotics, there's still about a 20. Increased risk of the infection coming back. You know, that, that kept me in quicksand for, for a while. That'll last for about six years at least statistically. But this is where the uncertainty piece comes in and this is where the. You know what? I have a great care team in my corner. If it happens again, I'll deal with it then. I have to live my life today to the best of my ability. But, yeah, physically I'm doing great. I've written another play and that's getting workshopped and I'm out living my life and there's still some things I haven't done I'm still a little afraid to do and I will be doing those things. But yeah, I just, Just really trying to lean into to, you know, this day is, is all that I've been guaranteed and I get to live it as best I can.
- [51:23]
A
Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Really good, really good view. And. Okay, so words of hope for anyone listening.
- [51:33]
B
Yeah, it can get better. And if you just stick with. Can get better. You're not alone. There's a lot of people who have been in a very dark place. Be gentle with yourself. Don't be afraid to reach out for help and say, I need help and just hang in there. You know, I like to say this too shall pass sometimes like a kidney stone. But, you know, you can get back to a life that is worth living with purpose and joy and compassion and love. And you're not alone.
- [52:16]
A
Absolutely. And your 20 year old self, pick up that phone, give him a call. What would you tell him?
- [52:27]
B
I think I would tell. I would tell him, you're enough. You're enough no matter what, just as you are right now, that's enough.
- [52:39]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I like that. And then, uh, you got a billboard where you live. What do you want written on that billboard?
- [52:47]
B
Um, I, I thought about this question because I figured you'd ask me. Um, and I think I would, I would write, if you knew this were the last year of your life, how would you live it?
- [52:58]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Really good question. Yeah, nice. I like it. Is that something you check in on often, that question?
- [53:12]
B
I really do, Stuart. I try, I try to. Maybe not every day, but there's a, there's a couple of meditations on those, those five remembrances and, and that, that question is something that I have to kind of keep front and center for me. I, I would, I would like, I like the fact that it doesn't feel as immediate and, you know, urgent, which I know is a, is also a signal of healing when things no longer feel urgent. When things feel urgent, that's usually a sign that I might be slipping a little bit. But that's something that I want to never lose, is that preciousness of, of each day. Obviously, you know, there's, there's things about my life that are necessity. I'm fortunate that I'm in a profession, you know, a healing profession where I, I get to try to help people like yourself. And so I, I have a pretty good life, but I fall short all the time. But it gives me something to help sort of steer the ship into a direction that is, is toward healing and purpose. Yeah.
- [54:21]
A
Yeah, I like that. And lastly, is there anything for anything else you wish you could have said or share?
- [54:31]
B
I don't think so. Just again, to express my gratitude to you, Stuart, and everybody who's had the courage to share on your show. A shout out to Caitlin Pinciotti and all the people who are kind of helping bring light to this sort of PT ocd. I really appreciate the work that people do to help ease our collective suffering and just feel very, very grateful to be to be on your show, man. I'm a huge fan. I have my OCD Stories T shirt and I wear it with pride. So no, that. That's it. Just thank you so much for the opportunity.
- [55:10]
A
Yeah, no, thank you so much and thank you for wearing the T shirt. But yeah, no, really great to hear your story and I'm glad things have really improved for you and yeah, long may that continue.
- [55:23]
B
Thank you, Stuart.
- [55:25]
A
Thank you for listening to this week's podcast and thank you to our patrons who helped make this episode possible. And if you would like to find out more about Patreon and the rewards and benefits, then there will be a link in the episode description. If you enjoy the OCD Stories podcast and would like to support us, please subscribe and rate the show wherever you listen to the podcast. And thank you to NOCD for supporting our work. If you want to find out more about nocd, you can click the link in the episode description and quick disclaimer. Guys, this podcast is not therapy. It is not a replacement for therapy. Please seek treatment from a trained professional and until we speak, take care.