← The OCD Stories
The OCD Stories
Story: Patrick Hussain (Suicidal themed OCD, shame, ERP) (#484)
00:53:21
In episode 484 I chat with Patrick who has kindly agreed to share his OCD story with us. We discuss his story, suicidal themed OCD, dreams, his early OCD memories, panic, contamination, opening up to his partner, shame, exposure and response...
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- [00:00]
A
You're listening to the OCD Stories podcast hosted by me, Stuart Ralph. The OCD Stories is a podcast dedicated to raising awareness and understanding around obsessive compulsive symptoms. I do this through interviewing inspired therapists, psychologists and people who have experienced OCD. Welcome to the OCD stories and welcome to episode 484. And in this one I chat with Patrick who has kindly agreed to share his OCD story with us. And in particular we discuss suicide themed OCD dreams, his early OCD memories, panic, contamination, opening up to his partner, shame, exposure and response, French and therapy. We riffed about OCD for a while, words of hope and much more. OCD can feel overwhelming, but help is closer than you think. NOCD provides expert led evidence based therapy for children and adults affected by ocd. With convenient online therapy from licensed specialized therapists and real time support between sessions, NOCD makes getting the right treatment easier than ever. Start your journey today@nocd.com or the link will be in the episode description. So thank you to Patrick for his time and sharing his story. I deeply appreciate it and of course, as you know, I appreciate you guys too. Thank you for listening, it means a lot About Further ado, here is Patrick. Welcome to the podcast, Patrick.
- [01:27]
B
Hi, great to meet you.
- [01:29]
A
Yeah, and you. It's good to have you on and as you know, I'd love to hear your OCD story. So you can share that now in as little as much detail as you want to give.
- [01:37]
B
Yeah, cool, I will do. So I sort of was reflecting a bit before we jumped onto the call over the last couple of days, like around where to start really, because I think for me the OC OCD full diagnosis really only happened last year. Right. So. But the experience of living with OCD has gone on for a really, really long time and I was thinking about where. So the type of OCD that I struggle with is suicide OCD within the harm OCD bracket. Right. But there's also a couple of other patterns which are interesting kind of within that as well. So particularly you know, things having to be just right orderliness like those, the, you know, some of the sort of classical bits and pieces. But, but I think like to go right back to where I first experienced something that was OCD, like was probably about 4 years old and what I remember was being at school. So yeah, four or five years old. So being in primary school and there was on Fridays you were allowed to bring like toys into class. This is like, you know, years ago. I don't know if you're still last year now but you could. And someone brought in this toy that was this like lizard that's kind of small plastic lizard and you put it into water and it sort of expanded. It was like sort of foam lizard but it was really slimy and it really disgusted me. Like, like maybe feel like really unwell. I didn't want to be in the same room is it? And stuff like that. And then the next morning when I was waking up getting ready for school, I was like getting ready to eat my breakfast cereals like a bowl of like Rice Krispies, right. And I had this like thought that someone had put the lizard into the cereal and that it was like hiding under the surface and that I shouldn't eat it. So I sort of like got being quite distressed. I remember like crying quite a lot and being really upset that it was there. And then like I was too scared to like try and get it out with the spoon. I couldn't like prove that it was there. I couldn't disprove it was there I guess is what was going on in my brain. And then I just like wouldn't eat cereal for days and ends. So like made, you know, would say to my. I said I'll have toast instead or like whatever, right. So and then eventually I think like yeah, that turned into like a bit of a pattern. So that was the first sort of like memory I have of something that felt like a thought seriously like changing my behavior and giving me that, you know, familiar feeling that anyone with OCD would have. Which is like well what if. Or like, or maybe could be that kind of thing. So that, yeah, sense of doubt crept in. So that was my first memory. And then I think there was like a more vivid memory that happened when I was eight or nine years old, right. Which was that I had a really vivid dream one night. And so I was born in like the beginning of the 80s, right. So cold War was very much thing I think like my parents had let me watch Threads or something which is this quite horrific film about nuclear war. And I had a really horrible dream one night when I was maybe 8 or 9 that there was a nuclear war. And in the dream I had this image of my mom's face like being on fire and like melting. I woke up. Then I went running into my parents rooms like really, really petrified. And then for the next like day like I could not stop seeing the image. Like it was just really, really intrusive and like really aggressive and like constantly there. I was always a kid before that Who'd, like. Who loved to read. Like, anyone who's watching can see all the books behind me. That's been part of my life. But the. I. There were books in the library about nuclear weapons. I've been reading before then. And I couldn't then go into the library. And then it got, like, really strange, right? So, like, I didn't want to sleep on my own. Didn't want to sleep in that room. Like, wanted sleeping. My brother's doing. My brother then that was annoying for my brothers. Then it's like I had to have the dog sleeping in the room with me. And then all these other patterns started to kick in, which I think was really the, like, the genesis of the condition, right? Because what would happen is I would lay in bed, I'd hear a plane flying above. I would, like, start counting sort of, like, marks on the ceiling to try and distract myself from thinking about the image of my mom and then believing that, like, if I didn't do that, then there would be a nuclear war. And it was this, like, sense of, like, oh, there is something like, I'm somehow in control of what happens and if I don't do these things. And then it became, like, tapping a certain number of times. I would read, like, passages from the Bible, so religious, and I was a kid, and those things would somehow, like, ward away the thought or, like, neutralize the anxiety that came with it. So that was, like, the beginning of, I think, the, like, of sort of OCD pattern. I think then, like, as a teenager was when it really became, like, what I would now, like, would understand to be, like, harm ocd, right? So. And again, there's, like, quite a specific instant where I really remember the thought, like, locking in, right? So there was. I was at a train station. The train went past really, really fast. And I had this feeling that I might throw myself onto the track, and I couldn't. And it felt like I actually wanted to do it. And then I was terrified, really did not want to do it at all. And then it just became this pattern of, like, if I had to take it, I didn't want to take trains. So, like, I try and avoid those. And then it was like, well, I have to take a train, so what can I do? So, like, stand outside the station, run onto the train as soon as it arrives. There's no risk that I can throw myself onto the track. All these sorts of, like, safety behaviors and, I guess, rituals and reassurances that I was trying to kind of give to myself. And it's really fascinating. So I went on study psychology after living with these sorts. This. These constant recurring thoughts of harm for a long time. And even that, to an extent, was its own type of reassurance. Right. Because I was trying to understand what was going on for me. So that's how. The early part of the story. I guess we'll kind of stop there. But that, that. That's where it sort of. That's why those are sort of three really clear examples of where I. You could feel like the actual condition play out in quite a vivid way, I think.
- [08:22]
A
Yeah, yeah. Like how it was developing and. And, yeah. I guess what strikes me is obviously it feels like you're a very sort of sensitive child, you know, with the. I guess being quite introspective with the reading. Lots of reading, and then obviously the dream, that very, very vivid dream. Did you have lots of dreams or growing up that stick out for you?
- [08:44]
B
Yeah, I mean, that's the one that, like. And weirdly, even to this day, it still haunts me a little bit. Right. I think there's. So. Was very sensitive as a child. I also think so. My mom at the time sort of struggled with some mental health issues which were not diagnosed until a lot later in life. And I think there were just, you know, many people who grew up in houses where there's sort of some instability, like you as a kid are trying to, in your own sort of clumsy way, figure out how to make it a bit more predictable when it's quite unpredictable. So, like, I think there was a bit of that in it and it would often come out in, like, dreams. And because I was quite introverted, got bullied a bit of school, so didn't really have that many friends. Like, it was very, like, internal as a person. So I was up and trying to do stuff in my own head rather than.
- [09:33]
A
Yeah.
- [09:34]
B
You know, doing the stuff that kids might do, which is like, I don't know, go and play football or talk to their friends about something. I didn't really have that option. So it felt like I was sort of. There was a lot of uncertainty around me. And so, like, naturally I'm going to want to try and create uncertainty. I'm trying to create certainty for myself. But doing that in your own brain. Yeah. Is maybe where some of it started to lock into a pattern.
- [09:56]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's not uncommon, obviously, for people with OCD to be like sensitive children. You know, I know I was. And then we think deeply, you know, whereas other children are maybe just living in the here and now making, I don't know, whatever they make thoughts and play tag and other cliches. So. Yeah. And then you talked about the train and then I guess that that's maybe an early indicator of like the suicid themed ocd.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You not wanting to jump in the tracks but your brain kind of telling you that's what's going to happen.
- [10:37]
B
Yeah. And that was like a one off instant and then it sort of seemed to resolve itself a little bit. So about 17, I think that was also. It was the same time that I first experienced like depression when I went to university. So I initially went to university to study philosophy and first year that was really hard a lot. So very personal family stuff was happening. Caused a lot of like problems that I probably, you know, at the time wasn't really addressing. Right. But I remember there being like quite a specific. Had a really big panic attack which I've never had before in like a friend's room in like, like dorm, like uni dorm. And after that it was like I feel like that was the real inflection point where that's. That, that like that's all I thought about. Right. So like the thought was I'm going mad and I'm going to harm myself. Like I really felt like I was losing my mind. So then I went back to my.
- [11:41]
A
Room.
- [11:44]
B
And then because I was alone, I was like, well there's no one here to like supervise me. They like I'm going to do something. And it was just this thought I just couldn't shake. Like it just stayed there. And then I think over time, over the next couple of weeks and months and eventually years, like this sort of constant hyper vigilance and like constantly trying to look for signs that I might be suicidal or I might be feeling a bit sadder than usual or like where I felt the risk was greater. Like you know, looking back now it makes sense. But at the time, like all the sort of reassurances like neutralizing behaviors, stuff like that would kick in around it quite heavily. So there's these like periods of time throughout my adult life where it's been really bad because it just like the thoughts were too powerful. I didn't have the right tools to just like sit with the thought and allow it to pass. It was like it would actually really inform the behavior. And I think you know, some really good examples of like where the neutralizing behaviors came in. Right. So I had this. So there's the, the, the. I guess the obsession was that I would Commit suicide or harm myself. And then the safety behaviors that go along with that is like, try to avoid anything which might trigger me to go. To lose control, go madness. So at first that became. It was stuff like don't drink alcohol, stay away from, like, any illegal drugs, that kind of thing, like, because that could imbalance your brain a bit. And then it was like. And then it came down to really, really specific things like, don't take paracetamol, don't take ibuprofen, don't take aspirin. And then it became this, like, contamination fear of, like, what if, like, someone put, like, acid into some food that I eat? Or, like, so. So then you have to eat all foods from packets because they have, like, safety controls in place. And like, avoid cat. Like, so it became this real pattern of, like, avoid ingesting anything or putting yourself into a place where you might imbalance the way your brain works.
- [14:01]
A
Yeah.
- [14:01]
B
And that went on for a really, really, really long time until I. Until I started to do erp, Right. Which is where I was able to start to challenge that thinking. And what was interesting over time is I think it was really obvious at first. Right. And that's when I first sought help when I was in my early 20s and I got, you know, I had a really good therapist. They were more focused on the panic attacks part than they were the OCD part. And I think they always quite gave me that. That diagnosis. But of course, like, managing the catastrophic thoughts that come with, like, a panic attack, which is sometimes is very different from, like, accepting constant thoughts of harm. Right. So, yeah. Yes, there were some bad behaviors that I think probably got worse under the wrong type of therapy as well. So, yeah, there were these sort of moments where they're. They're a set of, like, compulsions which are designed to, like, interact with whatever the thought is or whatever the belief is in that moment. But the theme has always been the same thing, which is the ultimately lose control of them. And then got myself.
- [15:05]
A
Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Um, so that was your early twenties, you said you kind of started getting the therapy.
- [15:13]
B
Yeah, so I did cognitive therapy, which was like, largely sort of exposure therapy. So it's sort of in the. Right. Yeah, ballpark. I also did sort of schema therapy as well, just to, I think, untangle some of, like, the underlying self esteem and like, depression issues and stuff like that to try and undo it. But the actual, like, obsession would flare up for years after that. I then had another similar sort of experience. I had, you know, pretty severe Panic attack, and then felt pretty awful for a long time afterwards. And that was where really, like, I think this idea of you might be suicidal, you might be coming suicidal, you're a bit depressed, so you're going to kill yourself or you're going to harm someone else, like, really came to the fore. And then again, it was trying the same treatment that had sort of worked to get rid of the panic attacks, at least in my early 20s. But it's always been there as, like, a sort of constant hum until I started the ERP process, like, last year, I think.
- [16:15]
A
Yeah, okay, fair enough. So between that. That time and in, say, last year, when you. When you started sounds like working on the OCD more directly, how is it sort of playing out in your life, these kind of themes?
- [16:30]
B
Yeah, I think, like, you know, one thing I will say about, like, OCD is it traps you in. The thoughts are, like, very personal, and the thought itself is very, very easy to hide, even from your very close people. Right. So, like, and probably to an extent, from yourself. Right. Because you just really are trying to avoid thinking that thought all the time. Right. And so I think you get really good at overtly doing the compulsions. Right. To the point where the compulsions are just part of your normal life and you don't realize how limiting they are. So, you know, there's the thing about avoiding foods that I sort of cleared up in my early 20s, the food bit at least by just sort of practicing, you know, the exposure stuff. But there was always an anxiety for me around, like, being in environments where, like, there might be drugs around, or being in environments where, like, there was alcohol or a lot of people. And then also in environments where, like, I was on my own. And some of the. I suppose the rituals that you would do without people realizing you're doing them can be really hidden. Like, you. You suddenly have the thought that, like, I'm gonna harm someone else. Like, you might do things which no one else would notice. Like, you might start counting stuff on a wall. Or, like, you might be in a meeting and make sure you're always sitting by the door. Or you might just say something like, I was really sorry. I've got to take a out. Because the thought is getting really intense. So, like, you start to build these, like, safety behaviors into every part of your life, and then they're just really difficult to manage. Like, the administration of, like, all of those safety behaviors. It makes you late to stuff all the time.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Like, you can't really be present. Like, you're often like, dishonest with people, like, why you're canceling, going to something. And I think those things just you, you know, like, you're distressed a lot, so you're trying to cover up a lot. So you get quite good at kind of almost like hiding the bits of yourself. And I think it's definitely gotten the way of like, connecting with people in the past where, like, I'm just not willing to share that part of myself. And I think that sort of somewhat gets in the way of building like, a true, like, authentic connection with other people. So it's really. So that's how it really showed up, I would say.
- [19:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, it can absolutely impact that kind of those social connections and relationships because, yeah, especially if you're, as you're saying, having to sort of make excuses or at times lie or cancel. It's. Yeah. Do those things enough, it can impact our relationships.
- [19:24]
B
And if you have. You sort of found that, I guess, from your own experience and like, a lot of the people you listen to, there's like a sort of almost like performative element to how you live your life. Right. Because you're. Your priority is to avoid doing the thing that you believe the thought is going to make you do. So then, like, often you feel like you're going through life just performing a bit rather than actually, like, being who you actually are.
- [19:47]
A
Yeah, I think performing's a good word for it. Definitely. When I was a kid, that, for me, as I think I said before, like, it felt like I was this weird sort of superhero. Like, I don't mean that as in. In a good way. It was like I had this superpower that it was. The superpower was ocd. And I don't mean OCD being a good thing. It's hard to describe. This is just how it came to me as a kid. It was like. It was the only reference I had as a kid of, you see these superheroes, they're, you know, they're bitten by a spider or. No, they come from some, like Superman, some planet. And I felt like that I had this superpower, but it just wasn't a good superpower. As a superpower, that was like, horrible. And I couldn't tell anyone about. Um. So, yeah, as a kid, I was performing a lot as to not. People see this kind of inner creepy power. And then as I got older. Yeah. Lie about things, change my mind a lot, avoid things, and just. Yeah, you just lying for your teeth a lot. And it's. At least I was. And yeah, it just. Even if your Friends are okay with it or partners or whoever. I think inside, for me, it kind of. It's. It's chipping away at your own, like, sense of self and, you know, because you don't want to be lying or you don't want to be.
- [21:04]
B
Yeah, yeah. And it's also, I guess, like, well, it is. It's making you more anxious because you know that you're lying, Right? So, like. And you feel guilty a lot. So those emotions like guilt and anxiety are going to make the OCD worse. See, then, yeah, people talk a lot about that part of it, but that constant sense of, like, remorse for your actions, like, quite exhausting to live with. But, like, if, you know, if it helps, like, you know, really good example of this. Me, my partner, have been together for, like, 15 years now, and it was maybe five years into the relationship that I was able to talk to him about some of the stuff I was thinking. And to be like, really frank, I've been on. This is a really good example. I've been on antidepressants since I was in my mid. You know, I started as a teenager, then came off them, went back on them a couple of times because just couldn't quite ever learn how to manage the, you know, what the condition was, really, other than just I was panicky and sometimes got a bit depression. So, like. But I've been on antidepressants for, you know, five years before I met my partner. And it was only when I was at work and I had, like, a really big. You know, at the time, I thought I was losing control. There's obviously a panic attack. My colleagues. I was hyperventilating, which, like, it's never really happened before. And they called an ambulance because they were concerned. So the ambulance arrived and they called my partner. He came along. We're in the ambulance, went to hospital together. The doctor was, like, a Monday morning. Like, the doctor was asking me all these kind of questions. Things like, ask me what medications I was on. My partner was in the room, and I was like, I really can't lie, like, because of the doctor asking me. So I was like, I'm on, like, Amitriptyline, which is the drug I was on at the time. And he asked what it was for, and I was like, it's for, like, anxiety and depression. My partner, like, was taken aback, like, because I'd always said to him that had, like, sleep epilepsy, like, just because that felt like a more benign thing to talk about. And then afterwards, I remember just, like, feeling of, like, firstly relief, because I had to be honest, but then also just like this like, really overwhelming sense of, like, guilt of like, I've been lying to you about this thing and I feel really terrible for it. So it's just like an example. I think we all struggle with that bit, right?
- [23:24]
A
Yeah, it's a really good example. And yeah, and I think, you know, with the lying, we're doing it out of self preservation. It's like I was saying as a kid, for me not to be seen because I thought if I was seen, I would be locked away. That was my fear as a kid. And obviously for everyone else it's this fear of like, yeah, being perceived as weird or odd or no one's going to love me if they find out I've got this stuff going on in my head or these taboo thoughts or whatever it is. And how was your partner when, when he. I assume he was probably a bit miffed, but how was he overall?
- [24:00]
B
Like, really supportive. Like, really, really supportive. Like, I'm just sad that I felt I couldn't talk to him, right? Which, like, you know, that sort of like, there's nothing worse than realizing you've made your partner sad, right? But like, but he did everything that you would, you know, that a loving partner would do, which was, like, you can talk to about these things, like, let's get your help. And like, you know, what do you need? And there's nothing to be ashamed of. And like, you know, I just, you know, he felt bad that I hadn't told him. Like, so it's, it has this. Yeah, it's. It's a, it's a strange effect. It, it's like, it's. It's interesting because, like, you know, a lot of that is driven by shame, isn't it? Like, because the thought itself is so horrific and disturbing. Especially when you're thinking about thoughts that, like, you have some special power or you're secretly suicidal or like you secretly might stab someone or something. Like, you're not gonna talk to people about those things, right? Because they're so if you were those things, it would be really terrible. Like, you would be quite seriously unwell and you would need help. But you're not actually those things. You just think you might be. And so you're still living with the, with all the shame and the horror of what that experience must feel like. But then you're also not ever. Like, that isn't really a risk. It's just, it's like, it's this, like your alarm system's Too active, like, for something which isn't ultimately harmful.
- [25:28]
A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly that. Yeah. And. And for you now, like you said you've been. Last year, I think you said you went into therapy for ocd.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:40]
A
How's that been? And what sort of work have you been doing in therapy? And has it helped?
- [25:46]
B
Yeah, I think it's. I think so. So. So I was doing erp, so Exposure Response prevention through nocd, which has been really great. Right. So. And like, big shout out to Carletta therapist. And it's just been really great. I think what. I think what I was surprised by is that I've done bits of this therapy in different places. Just it hasn't been very, like, focused. Right. It's not being. I didn't get the diagnosis of OCD until I spoke to Carletta, who did this, like, you know, full examination and was like, this is clearly. You've clearly got harm ocd. And clearly suicide is like the theme kind of within that. Yeah. And that. That in itself was a relief. Right. Because for a long time I just couldn't believe that it could just be that. Right. It was like, no, I must. There must be some love of me that wants to die, like, and I'm just not able to recognize it. So just the diagnosis in itself and the thoroughness of the diagnosis and so on and so forth, I think really, really helped. And then it was like, just explaining what's really going on there, like, under the hood. And it isn't, you know, it's. It's really an illness of doubt that, like, what you're looking for is 100 certainty when you can never have that. So rather than trying to address every single individual thought as it happens, like, you need to zoom out and really think about, like, the mechanism is the bit that's not helping you. Right. So. So aside from, you know, getting to the core of. Of, like, what is this central thought that you're really worried about and then what are all these behaviors and how much distress is being caused, like, how much relief you're getting from those and just almost like seeing it as, like, almost like a decision tree that's happening in your brain. I was then able to just, like, instead of trying to solve each thought as it happened, it was more like the thought almost doesn't matter. It's more like just the techniques do. So it doesn't matter whether I'm walking across the bridge and I get the feeling that I'm going to throw myself off it or I'm. Or I don't want to go on the tube because it's really packed and if it breaks down, I'll get anxious and then pump someone. Like, rather than, like, zooming into those thoughts, instead you're just saying, like, all right, the OCD's kicked in. Like, I can either try and talk myself out and reassure myself that it's just a thought, blah, blah, blah, or I can just actually use the response prevention techniques to decide, well, maybe I'll do that, maybe I won't. Like, let's just see what happens. Like, it's like that, that it sounds so simple. But, like, when you spent 42 years cultivating, like, a feeling that you're much more in control than you actually are, like, it isn't simple and you have to really practice it. So it's less about the, you know, in my head, I think it always been about the exposure, which is, I guess, what led from the panic attacks work. Like, it's less about doing the exposure. It's the response prevention bit that really matters. Right. So. So I found that really helpful. The other piece kind of within it was recognizing. And this actually were interesting, you know, this wasn't part of, like, the conversations that I necessarily have with Colletta. It was more just like a sort of a recognition that I think happened while I was kind of navigating all of it. Is that actually, like, to your point about Superpower, like, if you think of OCD is like an operating system, it's sometimes really good with some programs, but it's terrible with others. Right? Like, if you think you're going to kill yourself when you're in a crowded room, or you think. Or you can't go on vacation because you might be in a hotel room on your own, that's horrible. But the stuff that's made me, like, successful in my career and a good friend to other people is also the OCD mechanism working in a different way. Right? Like, if there's a crisis, I'm quite good at thinking about all the possible things that could go wrong and then planning ahead a bit. Right? Like, if I know someone is freaking out there, knowing, like, when to turn the reassurance on and when to just stick to the facts is also really important. Like, so there's a lot of these places where the. The same mechanism that makes you quite unhappy and quite ill also is a huge benefit to you. And it is a superpower in that way. Like, I would. That part. That part wouldn't change. But I think what, what ERP has helped me to do is allow me to see both sides of that coin. Right. So, like, sometimes the response prevention is the right thing to do if I'm dealing with OCD thoughts. Sometimes actually, like, just actually leaning into the crisis that's happening and helping to solve it in real time is the right thing to do. Right. So, like. So I thought that was an interesting byproduct. I just never really expected, like, where this is actually, although it hasn't felt like it quite often.
- [30:52]
A
Yeah, no, exactly. And that's. And yeah, obviously a lot of time of ocd, it's. It's an imagined crisis, you know, and then that's where obviously it's response prevention is the answer there, because it's 100 AC. But I think what you're speaking to is. I don't know if you heard the episode I did with Dr. Michael Orsey called the upside of OCD. Yeah, yeah. And he kind of talks about that, about saying, actually the upside of OCD is what happens before the ocd. It's. It's the. You being a sensitive person, you know, that's a gift to the world. And. And that is the upside of ocd. But then, then it's that sensitivity has even not been handled or not been heard or something. And then now the OCD is there as a kind of like a. A negative aspect of the quality of ourselves, which is the sensitivity, you know?
- [31:45]
B
Yeah. And that sensitivity piece is, like, really fascinating to me. Right. Because. So one observation I do have of myself is that the OCD is, like, hardened me over the years when I'm not actually very hard person. Like, fundamentally, like, I am quite empathetic and I'm quite sensitive and I really care about how other people are doing and, like, wanting the best thing for everyone. Like this distinction. Right. Which I know is a bit overused, but this difference in, like, being nice and being kind. Like, so, like, well, being nice is someone's got a spinach on their teeth and being nice is saying to them is not telling them, being kind to them, saying, you've got spinach and teeth. Right? So like, like doing the best thing for the person, even if it's a little bit offsetting in the moment. Right. So that is really, like, I think my real, like, nature as a person and I think what OCD took from me for a really long time was like, because I was ashamed of the thoughts and not wanting to. To reveal that part of myself. It sort of like hardened some of that sensitivity into just being really defensive and like, really protective of stuff When I just haven't needed to be. Like, the moments, like, I've, like, you know, like, got really angry or, like, really frustrated or really upset with someone because, like, really, I'm just quite scared. And it's like seeing that line between the sensitive bit of you, which is frightened, and then almost like the OCD bit of you, which is like, don't be frightened because that puts you at risk and protect it all costs is like the anger bit. So, like, it's just like, it's. It's an odd reflection. Right. When you think about it, but there does seem to be this thing in people with OCD where there is the. The sensitivity. Like, everything's just a bit higher in the mix. Right. Everything's like a little bit more audible to you. Yeah. And you just don't necessarily have the tools until you have the right therapy and you've had the right conversations about it to realize, like, that you can. You can either choose to accept the MIPS as it is, or you can try and dial things, like, in and out a little bit more.
- [33:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an interesting thought. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know why it's coming to me, but it's almost like the phrase of, like, OCD is kind of like sensitivity without confidence. It's that vulnerability about confidence. I don't know where I'm going with this, but something about when we're not confident that we can handle a situation, it's no longer safe to be sensitive and vulnerable. And then this super hyper vigilant part of us comes in to protect us, but that means we shut down and get super fearful versus I can be vulnerable, I can be sensitive, and I know I can handle whatever comes. That's that confidence element. Often for me, that second part isn't there. When OCD is there, It's. Everything's going to. The world's gonna crumble in on me.
- [34:45]
B
Yeah.
- [34:45]
A
I can't cope with this. And then I don't want to be vulnerable anymore and I become hard and.
- [34:50]
B
Yeah, right. It's like, it makes me, like, it makes you quite difficult. It's like, actually, it's like you're possessed by the act. Right. Which is, like, very interesting. When I did therapy years ago, you know, before I got it right, I think was like, we talked about inner critic and, like, what that is and, like, what it's there for and stuff like that. And I think, like, what I've come to realize is, you know, there's a lot of talk about the inner critic. And it's this, you know, sort of really haphazardly trying to help you by being a bit mean to you. Like, this idea of like a child running across the road. You can either, like, go out to his, cuddle it and be like, are you okay? You say if. Or you can be like, you idiot, you just ran across the road. You could have died. Right. Like, and they're both trying to protect you, but they're just. The mode is right. And I feel like OCD is that right? It's sort of like, try. It's really trying to protect you and trying to bring you certainty, but it just can't do it because you're never going to have the certainty. So it, like, delude you into believing it's there. So in those. So I think you summed up really, really well in those moments where the OCD is really present. Like, it's quite hard for you to be vulnerable because by being vulnerable you are, you're. You're potentially allowing that thought of harm or suicide to actually happen. Like, and I think that, like, what if you just. What if you don't. What if you don't try and protect yourself and you do throw yourself off a bridge? Like, that's always the doubt that you're trying to fight with. Right. Or like, what if that person in the meeting does inflame you and you. You call them a really offensive word that you can never come back from. Like, it's like those things, like, are these instincts that are bubbling away inside your body and you somehow are imprisoned by the OCD to believe that you might actually act on them when, like, the reality is that the sensitive part of you also wouldn't do that. It's just that you can't. You don't trust that bit as much. Maybe.
- [36:41]
A
Yeah, you don't trust yourself. Yeah, it's, it's. Yeah, it's interesting. I think next five years will be quite interesting for, like, how we view ocd. It might not change at all, but I think things like ICBT gaining popularity, they bring slightly differing views on it, which I think is useful to have competing views because I think they talk about sort of learning to trust yourself, at least trust your senses.
- [37:11]
B
Yeah.
- [37:12]
A
And then you can be vulnerable and trust this. Okay. And you trust yourself and that you're not going to throw yourself on a train track or. Yeah, yeah. And obviously ERP does that, but it does it through sort of response prevention and then basically teaching yourself that you didn't throw yourself on the Train tracks.
- [37:32]
B
Yeah.
- [37:32]
A
And you can trust that you won't.
- [37:34]
B
Do it sometimes as well. I think the trust bit is almost like, to an extent, like you've lost trust in what? Like what? So the bit like it's almost like the bit where you lose trust is a bit where therapy and psychology, I guess is still like. Like somewhat in disagreement. Right. Like, have you lost trust in the idea that the thought always precedes the action? Or like have you lost trust in that, like the action somehow precedes the thought. Right. So like it's like which is generating. Which. There's a really good article and really good like editorial and the new scientists. I don't know if you read it about OCD and some of the theory behind it. I'll share with this really good article. Please encourage people to read it. But it's the emerging neuroscience. So I studied neuroscience in the end, which is like, obviously clearly trying to understand what's going in my own brain. But. Yeah, but the. Yeah, it's just interesting that actually, like, it's possible that the action comes first rather than the thought, which is sort of turns OCD on its head slightly because the action itself of the OCD being activated is agnostic to the thought, which is quite an interesting way to think about it. So like it wouldn't matter what thought crept in at that point. You've activated the system. So like it is therefore more receptive to the thought. And sometimes that's not good because the thought's frightening. So like, which I thought was fascinating because you'd always think you have the thought and then suddenly your body responds to it and then your behavior inhibits. But might be the other way around, which is sort of an interesting.
- [39:16]
A
Is.
- [39:17]
B
Yeah.
- [39:17]
A
Yeah. Please do share it and I'll. I'll add it to the show notes for anyone listening and curious. I think that gives credibility to like the idea that it's not about. Read. Can't speak. Dr. Reed Reed Wilson talks about this. It's not about the theme. It's just about uncertainty.
- [39:35]
B
Yeah.
- [39:35]
A
And that would make sense there of the theme comes later.
- [39:39]
B
Yeah.
- [39:40]
A
Uncertainty's already been activated.
- [39:43]
B
But do you. So I'm really interested in this because the doubt part of it. Right. Yeah. I would say. Well, I don't know what other people would say, but like I'm pretty sure that as a person I'm not particularly black and white. Right. Like, I'm usually quite good at just sitting in the gray of things. Like, I think I can make decisions very quickly, but I'm always fine with being told I'm wrong. Like, like absolutely fine. It does not bother me. Right. And I think like being challenged, I'm always open to like change my mind on stuff like that. So that like that power to be doubtful is clearly like there. It's just that like there's a discomfort that comes with that doubt when the OCD mechanisms like somehow activated. Right. Or when the thought is thought and the thought action fusion is so strong that the doubt feels necessary. Right. Somewhere. So but I just, it's. I know you've done a lot of these conversations with people. Like if that's something you picked up on, like this, this like sort of central thing of like actually people with OCD are quite good at that. But it's just that it's almost like that bit steals your ability to believe that you are or something. It's just, it just came to me that that might be a thing.
- [41:02]
A
Yeah. You know, I've heard many therapists and I've used this as well with clients, but I've had many therapists say to me like, or they'll say to their clients or they say it to me on the podcast of. It's not that you struggle with uncertainty because just walking down the street you're dealing with uncertainty. You don't know ever a car is going to fly off the road or there's going to be some axe wielding murderer coming your way or you find a winning lottery ticket. Like you're dealing with uncertainty all day, every day. You know, will I get fired from my job today? You know, will I get a promotion like you? You just make space for all of that because you don't think about it. But with OCD for some reason around those specific themes, the brain says I can't tolerate uncertainty here. And again, I think this is where ICBT with their, what do they call it, feared self idea that maybe the reason why we're latching onto this is all of these themes of OCD we may have point to something deeper, some sort of ability that we can't cope with certain things or, and that's why we get hooked. Or maybe in traditional OCD therapy it's like, no, it links to your values and you care about this stuff because it matters and that's why you can't let it go. See, I don't really have a good answer other than that.
- [42:23]
B
Yeah, I know it's interesting. When I was, when I was like studying psychology like Jung and Freud was sort of out of fashion at that point. Right. But it's interesting, like sort of the, you know, the, the shadow self and stuff like that might actually be something which is now a bit more clinically understood. Right. And it's like the sense that you might. There might be a part of you that like, puts the bits that you care about at risk somehow. Right. So. So yeah, it is interesting, like how far we've come in it. And also, you know, one thing I will say is I'm like, I'm sort of like. There's, you know, two reflections on even just having this conversation. One is like, I think to your question earlier around, like, you know, have you found therapy to be helpful? The fact that I can like have this sort of conversation demonstrates that at least, like the shameful bit of it isn't bothering me as much. Right. So that takes that sting out of it. And secondly, that like, that there are people who can connect and have these conversations is really powerful because if I think back to being a teenager or a young adult, I felt so alone, like, or even a child or having that nightmare and stuff, like not being able to make sense of any of the behavior and feeling that I was going mad and that would compound the thoughts and stuff like that. Like, if there had been something like this, then, like, it wouldn't. I wouldn't have spent like, you know, most of my adult life, well, almost all of my adult life, like, getting stuck on that theme. Like, just. I wouldn't have you. Like, I'm sort of excited to an extent that like, firstly the condition itself was being understood better and secondly that like, there is more of a network and more of like a conversation happening around it so that people don't feel that sense of aloneness. Right. So, yeah, those two things in themselves I think are just. Yeah, it's like a reason to be excited about it. Like, if you'd have asked me two years ago, I was on a trip with. There's a friend's birthday, actually I only buy this and him recently. But I. I went on this kind of trip and I got to the hotel room and I'd fallen asleep because basically got quite drunk quite early, gone back to my hotel room and passed out. I woke up at like 12:00 clock at night. They're all out having dinner. I was like quite hungover and also feeling a bit unwell, like a bit fluid or something. And I just really freaked myself out. I was like, to the point where. Tried everything, put on a YouTube video of like gongs, tried to meditate. That didn't really work. Because all I could think about is I'm in a hotel room on my own. I can't tell anyone that I'm thinking this stuff. I think I might kill myself. And then it just was like eight hours of just panic, like, and compulsions and trying to avoid. To the point where I re. I cancel, flew back home the next day, told everyone that I just was really sick, which. Which was partially true, but not the real driver. Right. Like, there was no way two years ago that I could have had this sort of conversation. And there's no way that I would have understood myself enough to know that, like, you know what, you just actually really fighting because you were having a really horrific, intrusive thought, and you just weren't able to do the response prevention bit. Like, that's the missing tool in your pocket. Right. So, yeah, yeah, sorry, a bit of a rant there. But I just. I think it's. It's sort of almost exciting that, like, that we have the capacity now to really understand ourselves and to be able to, like, have conversations like this that just allow other people to do the same thing. So it's, like, massively grateful to you for the podcast. Really. It's been really helpful.
- [45:54]
A
Thank you. No, I appreciate that. And that's a good story. And I think, yeah, every year it gets better. We get more research, more understanding, more content is put out there. So, yeah, I think it's. It's only going to get better.
- [46:07]
B
Yeah.
- [46:08]
A
Which is good. And, yeah, so, I guess, you know, words of hope for anyone listening. What would you tell them?
- [46:16]
B
Yeah, I think, like, it's a journey for everyone. Right. And I also think there's still a lot of myth out there about what OCD is. Right. I still think you hear all the time it's a cliche, almost, people with OCD at least. Like, you know, the thing about, like, oh, I'm just really OCD because I desperately tidy or like, you know, that kind of stuff. And that is a part of it for some people with the condition. But, like, I think you follow your instinct a bit on it, right? Like, if you're having the same thoughts all the time and they're really distressing you, there is something going on there that's at least ocd. Like, and just get it looked into, like, really prioritize it. I, like, can now reflect and say that there are components of OCD that have made my life significantly better. Certainly been helpful in my job, and I think helpful in, like, navigating lots of difficult parts of my life. Right. But it is not worth suffering. Like it really isn't. And it's quite amazing to. You know, the words of hope, I would say is that like I live with a condition. If I think about that serial story right back at the beginning, I would have been four or five years old. I'm 44 this year. So we're talking 40 years of living with a condition. Right. And within three months of working with Coletta and, and doing ERP, you know, it's down. It doesn't bother me. Like it's like almost cured to it. I know it will flare up at times. I know during winter when I get the seasonal affective disorder or like when something actually sad happened, the thoughts are going to come back, but I know how to deal with them. And you can turn the corner on it, which I think is just. Yeah, I wouldn't have believed that myself years ago, but, but genuinely like it's, it is life changing and then once you've got rid of that stuff happening, you're just like, like just everything isn't as scary anymore. And I think you just. Because you're not expending all that energy or being scared of stuff, you can spend that energy doing the stuff that you genuinely want to do and enjoy without constantly having to build the infrastructure to protect yourself from harm. So yeah, so like it is really life changing, really important to just fully engage with the process and do the work on it.
- [48:36]
A
Yeah, yeah, I like that. And you pick up the phone and call maybe the four year old you. What would you tell him?
- [48:50]
B
Eat the cereal. I think that would have been the solution because you want to find out what's at the bottom. And also if there's nothing there, great. If there is, do you end up being sick and just see what happens? Yeah, that would have been, that would be the advice.
- [49:08]
A
Yeah, yeah, just.
- [49:11]
B
Yeah, just do it. Don't. Don't pay that much mind. You think all sorts of stuff. That's not one to pay any attention to, I don't think.
- [49:18]
A
Yeah, I like that. And then billboard, you got a billboard. What do you want written on it?
- [49:26]
B
As in like a sort of like. Describe the billboard to me. I'm really.
- [49:29]
A
Well, it's just a billboard in London. You can have anything written on it you want. What do you want written on it? Doesn't have to be ocd.
- [49:45]
B
I think it would be accept that being wrong is often right.
- [49:58]
A
I think that's a brain tickler, that one.
- [50:02]
B
Yeah, a little bit. I think. I guess what I mean by it is like that actually it's all right to be proved wrong. Things are never as black and white. Like, you might throw yourself off the bridge, you might not throw yourself off the bridge. Neither one of those is a foregone conclusion. Right. Like, and allow yourself to be wrong. Allowing yourself to be wrong allows you to, like, entertain both ideas equally. Whereas believing that you're right constantly will force you to strongly polarize to one or other. And the reason I choose that is because I think that's true in all aspects of life. Right. Like, constantly surrounded by opinions and perspectives. Yeah. If everyone just entertained the idea there might be 1 or 2% wrong to be much nicer to each other. But, yeah, I think something like that.
- [50:56]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah, that's enough of that sort of polarity and more. Actually, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
- [51:05]
B
Yeah.
- [51:06]
A
Or at least. Yeah.
- [51:08]
B
Somewhere right.
- [51:09]
A
Somewhere.
- [51:10]
B
Yeah.
- [51:11]
A
Not left and right.
- [51:12]
B
I think that's it. OCD makes you think you're right a lot more right than you actually are. And I think being. Being. Getting more comfortable being wrong is quite a good way out of that, I think.
- [51:22]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah, it's that nuance. Right, okay. So, yeah, lastly, anything else you wish you could have said or shared today?
- [51:36]
B
No, Just like. Well, I suppose a massive thank you to Carletta, who's my therapist. I think I might have said that already. But also just a, like, massive thank you to, like, very lucky to have very good friends and family who, like, have watched me go on this journey over the years and really understand myself. And just, like, yeah, just a huge thank you to all of you for just, like, being so kind. Um, yeah, and I don't think I would have ended my life in hindsight, but I think my life would have been significantly worse if those people weren't there to look after me. So.
- [52:08]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's important to. To be grateful, which you are, so that's awesome. And thank you so much for sharing the story. It's great chatting with you and philosophizing about acd. Yeah, we may be completely wrong, but it was an interesting conversation.
- [52:26]
B
Yeah, exactly. Thank you very much.
- [52:30]
A
Thank you for listening to this week's podcast and thank you to our Patreons who helped make this episode possible. And if you would like to find out more about Patreon and the rewards and benefits, then there will be a link in the episode description. If you enjoy the OCD Stories podcast and would like to support us, please subscribe and rate the show. Wherever you listen to the podcast. And thank you to NOCD for supporting our work. If you want to find out more about nocd, you can click the link in the episode description and quick disclaimer Guys, this podcast is not therapy. It is not a replacement for therapy. Please seek treatment from a trained professional and until we speak, take care.