← The OCD Whisperer Podcast with Kristina Orlova
The OCD Whisperer Podcast with Kristina Orlova
171. OCD Recovery: 2 Skills to Stop Fighting Your Mind (OCD Defusion & Acceptance Tools)
00:30:09
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- [00:00]
WSECU Announcer
WSECU isn't just one of Washington's best credit unions. We're a Forbes best in State five years running. Why? Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member owned cooperative, we love Washington as much as you do. From the Olympic mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being. Because what we really do best is invest in you. Visit wsecu.org today to learn more. Washington let's credit union.
- [00:31]
Christina Orlova
Welcome to OCD Whisperer Podcast. So, guys, this is our second episode of a four episode series. And with me I have Dr. Marisa Maza. And today we're going to be talking about diffusion and acceptance. And by the end you will definitely learn some strategies, skills and tools. And if you want to make sure that you don't miss episodes, definitely subscribe to this channel. Welcome to the show, Dr. Maza.
- [00:54]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Thanks again for having me. I'm excited to be here and talk about diffusion and acceptance today.
- [00:59]
Christina Orlova
Yeah, so our first episode, we kind of actually touched on this some and I thought how perfect that this, this next segue, right, goes right into this. This is, this is a huge one for people. So I definitely see a lot of comments on, you know, on my Instagram, on YouTube, a lot of, a lot of kind of energy around acceptance. And then what the heck does the fusion mean? How do you diffuse? What is that? So I'm gonna kind of just give it right over to you so we can start talking about this. And we're gonna talk about ferocity specifically. You know, people get really scared about accepting their thoughts because I think they make it mean so many things. Like it means something about me that then I'm a bad person or I like them or I want them, or maybe if I do accept them, I'm gonna somehow make it happen, or morally it's wrong or society says it's bad. Right, all of that stuff. So let's, let's tackle this. Hi, I'm Christina Orlova, host of the OCD Whisperer podcast. As someone who lives with ocd, I understand the struggles firsthand. If you're here, you're not alone. Before we start, grab your free OCD survival kit at www.corresults.com to help you take control. That's K O R results dot com. Now let's dive into today's episode.
- [02:27]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Last time, just to recap, we talked a bit about psychological flexibility. And so what we mean by psychological flexibility is, you know, being Present, aware of the things that are important to you, committed to those things, recognizing you are not your thoughts. And all of the other experiences you have. That thoughts are not the truth. Truth, Right. And having an openness to your experiences. And so diffusion is one of the ways you can build psychological flexibility. I often get asked the question, how can I get rid of these intrusive thoughts?
- [03:08]
Christina Orlova
How can I get rid of.
- [03:10]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Right.
- [03:12]
Christina Orlova
That's like number one, Right?
- [03:15]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Exactly. Right. Like, how can I stop these urges is another one. Right. I wish I had a cure. Like, I would love to have a cure and be able to, like, hand it to people and say, here you go. Right. And no more intrusive thoughts. But unfortunately, there is no way to not have the intrusive thoughts. You see, the way that we are created is that our experiences are automatic. Just as automatic as me pressing R on my keyboard and an R shows up on my screen. Right. We as human beings go into certain scenarios and certain contexts and are automatically given different kinds of thoughts and experiences. And for ocd, you know, when a person is faced with one of their triggers, they're going to automatically be given certain thoughts, images, urges, ex. Emotions. The. The mind is, like, constantly throwing thoughts out. Like, I think of it as like a thought machine, sometimes as just giving, giving, giving. And unfortunately, there's no way to sort of stop that machine. However, there is a way to learn how to work with it, and that's what diffusion does. So diffusion is all about sort of unhooking from the thoughts and seeing them as like, passing words or stories, not necessarily as like, the truth.
- [04:52]
Christina Orlova
Right.
- [04:53]
Dr. Marisa Maza
When we think about the mind, it's actually a really faulty machine. I mean, Christina, do you recall a lot of information from like 0, age 0 to 5?
- [05:06]
Christina Orlova
Definitely not.
- [05:08]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Right? Yeah. So it doesn't recall, like, our first 5ish years of life.
- [05:15]
Christina Orlova
Yeah, I think that's common.
- [05:17]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Yeah, absolutely. And our. The way our minds are programmed from an evolutionary perspective is that negative experiences stick, whereas positive experiences tend to slide right out. Right. So negative experiences are like Velcro. They stick. Right. In Teflon experiences.
- [05:38]
Christina Orlova
Sure do.
- [05:40]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Yeah. Which are nonstick pans, in case you don't know. They just slide right out. Right. So we all have one of these machines that doesn't recall everything and tends to recall more of our negative events than our positive events. So is this a machine that we really want to rely on?
- [05:59]
Christina Orlova
That's interesting. Right, because we're talking about. Yeah. I think people would say, well, yeah, how else am I supposed to move through life, right? And when you're saying, this is given to me, if I think back to that even.
- [06:12]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Right.
- [06:12]
Christina Orlova
First things like, what do you mean? It's given to me, but isn't it me? Is it happening? Is it like something happening automatically and I'm not in control? If I'm not in control, oh, my God.
- [06:21]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Right.
- [06:21]
Christina Orlova
Those are the first things that come to mind.
- [06:23]
Dr. Marisa Maza
So, yeah, I mean, there's a vulnerability here, like recognizing that. That as human beings, we don't have control over most of our thoughts and feelings. We can influence them here and there by how we respond to them. Right. Like, I know if I go to the gym, I tend to have less anxiety, or if I do my own exposures, I tend to experience less anxiety. Right. Like, I can influence them here and there. There are things I can do to make them bigger or smaller. But at the end of the day, a lot of the experiences folks have, like, they don't have control over. And that's hard, Right? Like, being a human being, being vulnerable, and recognizing that there's so much about ourselves and our lives we don't have control over is really hard.
- [07:12]
Christina Orlova
It sure is. I don't think any one of us want to admit that.
- [07:16]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Yeah. Yeah. And so that's where skills like act and self compassion can be so, so helpful in supporting us through it.
- [07:26]
Christina Orlova
Right.
- [07:26]
Dr. Marisa Maza
And so knowing that our minds are faulty, right. One of the ways we can kind of hook unhook in those moments of, like, major OCD where you're like, the mind's a really good salesperson, right? You're really bought into, like, you know, I'm gonna harm that person, Right. And you feel it in your body as though it's an emergency. What can you do? Right? Like, what can you do to unhook in those moments?
- [07:52]
Christina Orlova
Right.
- [07:53]
Dr. Marisa Maza
And really the first step is that noticing of, like, okay, here it is. Like, this is. This is that moment, right? Like, this is the ocd. Right. And so one of the ways that. That I help clients unhook is literally by adding the words before the obsession that, like, I am having the thought that I'm going to harm X, Y and Z, or I'm noticing my OCD telling me that my partner is not right for. For me.
- [08:22]
Christina Orlova
I see. So that little piece in the beginning that you have clients that insert, that's a piece that helps to create a little bit of that space or that separation.
- [08:31]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Absolutely, absolutely. Or if you've given your OCD a name, for example, like, say you named your OCD Betty, Right? You can kind of notice, like, what does Betty look like? What does Betty sound like when she's giving you these obsessions? And can you just acknowledge when Betty is showing up in your day to day life by saying, hey, Betty, I hear you saying X, Y and Z. That's one example of diffusion. Other examples to kind of create a little bit of distance between you and the thoughts is by doing things like imagine like Donald Duck or Mickey Mouse giving you the obsessions, right? Like, imagine them in silly words. Or I had one client that really enjoyed, like, imagining their OCD obsession on a billboard. Like, yes, I'm going to make a horrible decision in my life and regret it for the rest of my life. Right? Like, and that was his billboard and he was able to kind of picture that billboard in those OCD moments. And it allowed him to kind of step back and recognize, okay, this is what the billboard says. Right. And now I have a choice. Do I want to. Do I want to buy and believe that salesperson? Right. Or do I want to make a different choice here Also, as you're sharing.
- [09:48]
Christina Orlova
That, I, I definitely know 100. These are the top questions that usually come right when somebody tries to implement this technique or tool. It's like, okay, well, how do I do this to, you know, make this go away? Because that always seems to be, I think the, the, the underlining motive. Even though people might not say it out loud all the time, but that's, that's the thing they're trying to do is like, okay, I'll do this and then what? What, I'm gonna have a separation from the thought. It'll go away, it'll stop.
- [10:18]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Yeah.
- [10:18]
Christina Orlova
What do you think about that?
- [10:19]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Yeah, again, like, if I had a magic cure to make it go away, I would totally give it to you and all my clients and end suffering. Right. But the reality is it's. There's, that's not there. Like, that's not an option. And so, you know, any tool can be turned into avoidance or control, including this tool. Right. Exposures can be done as a way to get rid of anxiety. Diffusion can be done as a way to get rid of anxiety. And the way I see it is in an act model, all of these tools are used to get good at having the experiences so that way you can be more present in your life and focus on those things that matter to you. And we know from the research that when folks are spending more time, engaged, present, doing the things they love, it.
- [11:12]
WSECU Announcer
Actually lower WSECU isn't just one of Washington's best credit unions. We're a Forbes best in state five years running. Why? Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member owned cooperative, we love Washington as much as you do. From the Olympic mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being. Because what we really do best is invest in you. Visit wsecu.org today to learn more. Washington let's Credit union.
- [11:44]
Dr. Marisa Maza
There's the volume of the OCD of the anxiety, and they tend to experience more joy.
- [11:52]
Christina Orlova
Yeah, I mean, who doesn't want more joy, right?
- [11:56]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Absolutely, absolutely. But notice that joy also comes with the emotional pain too.
- [12:03]
Christina Orlova
I mean, I think that's really true. Right. I think that that's really powerful to just really like think on. That is that I think unintentionally people just want the happiness, the joy, the love, the sparkles, all the good things and, but the goodies. And I forget where this comes from, but quite often there's these conversations and sayings that basically say, hey, if you didn't have the opposite also, you wouldn't even really appreciate or know what those are. So you know, some of the experiences that are uncomfortable, heavy, unpleasant, you know, we don't want. They're part of the human experience, if you will. And they also, I think, give us the ability to appreciate when we are having and doing things that are more joyous and happy and that we value so much more. Right. Because we know what this other side is like.
- [12:54]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Absolutely, absolutely. And, and you know, one of the things I'd actually encourage any listeners to do is to sort of think about what might their OCD be trying to remind them of that's important to them.
- [13:11]
Christina Orlova
Give us an example.
- [13:13]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Yeah. So great example is I am working with someone right now who is absolutely terrified that she's gonna harm her child. And when we dig into her values and the things that are most important to her, it's. It's all about like her child, you know, being safe, living a healthy, big, beautiful life. So I can think about another client who I'm working with who engages in compulsive rituals, cleaning rituals, all day long, because he is so concerned about spreading and contaminating other people, spreading germs and contaminating other people. And one of the things he mentions that his OCD reminded him of is, is how important it is for, for him to be like a kind, loving and responsible human being.
- [14:14]
Christina Orlova
I love that. I see where you're going. Yeah. And I Hope that the audience, in hearing this, really sees and understands that. Yeah. When OCD is kind of the thing and you're focused on that thing, that thing actually says volumes about, you know, the. The thing that matters to you. Right. The thing that you care about, the way that you want to actually be. And kind of what I'm also hearing is like, that's a great little insight in a moment to connect to that and say, yeah, wait a second. Right. How can I also perhaps, you know, act in ways that are loving and go ahead and engage with my child and. And play or. Right. So we start to kind of change. Change a little bit of how we want to show up in those moments.
- [14:54]
Dr. Marisa Maza
And how we relate to our thoughts. Right. Because then our thoughts go. Go from being our enemies to like. That's actually a beautiful reminder.
- [15:04]
Christina Orlova
Yeah, I hear that. I totally see that. Yeah. It's information. It's information you can use in a whole different way to understand something more deeply.
- [15:13]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Absolutely, absolutely. And you may not like the way the OCD is trying to remind you of these things. Like, sometimes I think of, like, OCD as being on steroids and just taking it to a level that's just not necessary, but it does. And so it's annoying. And you don't have to like it. Right. But we can still kind of make space for this idea of like, oh, like the OCD is trying to remind me that living a big, beautiful life or being a kind person or being a thoughtful person, like, these are things that are at my core that are most important to me. Like, thank you, thank you, ocd, for reminding me of these things. And I don't appreciate the way you're doing it.
- [15:51]
Christina Orlova
Totally. Yeah, I love that. And I definitely see that, you know, if you're more in the thick of it, you're definitely going to want some help, you know, from somebody else to kind of help you slow down and look at that and unpack that and start to notice that. But I imagine as you get better at this, you start to see this more clearly. And so that begs the next question, which is what about acceptance? Like, if. So if you're practicing, diffusing and creating this different relationship with the thoughts and the feelings and the experience, how or what would you do then for acceptance based, I guess, techniques or strategies? Right. Like, how do you get into that mindset even of, like, that, you know, it's okay to have thoughts, any thoughts, even my bad ones.
- [16:35]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Yeah. And so I think, you know, it really starts with acknowledging it. Right. Like, I'm having this thought or you know, the fact that like, I don't like having this thought. Like, acceptance doesn't mean you have to, like, just means you got to be willing to have it.
- [16:53]
Christina Orlova
Gotcha.
- [16:53]
Dr. Marisa Maza
There's, there's a saying in act. If you don't want it, you got it.
- [17:00]
Christina Orlova
Right. The more you resist, the more it persists.
- [17:04]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Exactly, exactly. And you know, I love Dr. Kristen Neff and one of the things she often talks about is suffering in life comes from two places. Not accepting yourself as you are or not accepting your life as it is.
- [17:23]
Christina Orlova
I mean, I think that really profoundly hits home because even for myself recently, like there's been some changes and things and things that maybe I'm not as kind of happy about. However, that's what it is right now. And so I definitely have noticed that there's times where internally there's this like little conversation happening and a little bit of arguing or fighting with something and then I would stop and kind of go, well wait a minute. It's like that's changing anything and, and so pivoting to like, well this is what it is right now. Let me make the best of this current thing. And just in that mental pivot, it's like I could feel my whole body relax. This. And suddenly I'm like, okay, like I just take it as is. It doesn't mean it has to be finite. Like this is it, this is written in stone. It's just this is where we are right now. And that means trusting. Right? Trusting that whatever is next will come when it needs to.
- [18:17]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Absolutely, absolutely. And, and when difficult experiences arise, like notice what do you do? Like, how do you relate to those experiences? Like for example, like I know when I'm feeling sad or anxious, I immediately go to what's wrong with you? You're a therapist. Like, you shouldn't be feeling these ways. Right? Like I immediately go to this like self believing place or worrying. Right. And so just kind of noticing like how do you actually relate to those experiences? And what I would say is like present moment and mindfulness says, okay, I see you anxiety or I'm feeling anxious. And what actually self compassion does is then says it's okay that I feel anxious.
- [19:07]
Christina Orlova
I, I mean again, I think it's such a powerful, powerful concept. It sounds simple, but it's, it really is profound because you know, like when I was younger, I'll be honest, the, the thing I used to do with all different discomforts is I would dissociate at times I turn to, you know, substances Being out constantly, just anything but be with it. And it took a while to learn and realize, like, it is really okay to, to be in whatever that unpleasantness is and you don't have to run away from it. But I, I just want to put that out there because I think as a concept, it's powerful, but as a. Something to actually implement, that's where it's tough. But the more you practice, right, you get better. I think you, you learn to trust yourself more, you trust life more. You realize, I can totally do this. And, and you really, I find, gets stronger. Like, I, I definitely will say I've gotten so much stronger just as a human because of all the different adversities and challenges and experiences that I didn't want to have, but there I am. So, you know, and then, like you said, getting to that place of accepting the totality of it all, you know, we can't always cherry pick and say, okay, I only want this part for me. That would be like a robot.
- [20:33]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think, you know, in general, in society, I think emotions have a bad rap, right? Like, you shouldn't have them. You should only have the positive ones. And, and oftentimes, you know, when associate, when emotions get associated with like the negative, it. It will create stress in our body. Our urge will then be to pull away from it. Like, our body can literally signal like, you're gonna die by feeling that emotional discomfort. Like, that's what it can feel like.
- [21:05]
Christina Orlova
Yeah.
- [21:06]
Dr. Marisa Maza
And yet no one has died from an emotion.
- [21:09]
Christina Orlova
True, very true.
- [21:13]
Dr. Marisa Maza
It may feel like you're going to, Right? But no one's actually ever died from an emotion, right? So here's that tricky mind again kind of showing up saying, like, you can't handle this. Right? Like, it's too much, it's too big. Right? And acceptance says, well, it's here. So let me see for myself. Let me actually feel the feels. Right? Every emotion is linked to a physical sensation in the body. What happens when I feel this tightness in my chest or this heaviness in my belly? Like, what happens? Well, can I ask you a question?
- [21:46]
Christina Orlova
Something that comes to mind is that when people talk about this, sometimes they'll also mention almost like needing to, like, coach themselves a little bit internally. Do you think, like, there's room for that? Because I've also had some, you know, folks say things like, you, you don't need to or you shouldn't be engaging in all this selft talk. You should just do, just be. And, you know, I'm just curious like, what? Where do you fall in that conversation?
- [22:12]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Or. Yeah, I think a little bit of coaching is helpful. I know I found it, you know, personally helpful. I see my clients finding it helpful. And initially in therapy, I often use scripts as a way of helping and guiding my clients and to learn how to relate to our emotions. Like, you know, learning eq, like, emotional intelligence, labeling our feeling, noticing it in the body. Like, a lot of us aren't taught these things, and yet what we know from the research is just by labeling the emotion, it gets us out of the amygdala and more into our, like, thinking, logical brains. Right. And so I find a little bit of coaching in my own life personally and in my practice to be helpful because you're basically teaching people, like, how to have difficult experiences, which is not what most of us were taught.
- [23:06]
Christina Orlova
Yeah, I totally agree. I personally also think sometimes, like, having almost like a little prompt for myself or a little reminder that I might say, like, I notice that suddenly I'm tight. And I might say, okay, like, relax into this, or okay, like, okay, relax your tummy or, you know, anything like that. It's not. It's not like it has to be huge, but something like that, like an anchoring phrase or a reminder or something that it's like I give myself that signal and permission to, like, oh, okay, all right, all right.
- [23:38]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Breathe. You mentioned breathe earlier. That's another. You know, I like to remind myself, be here, be now is something that helps remind me to kind of get.
- [23:49]
Christina Orlova
Out of here and into the moment.
- [23:51]
Dr. Marisa Maza
I like to sometimes picture. And for some people, this is distraction. For others, it's not. It actually helps them feel more, but, like, picturing the sensation in the body so it feels like tightness. Can I picture a knot or a fist and just feel that knot or fist and just notice what happens as I welcome what. Notice what naturally happens, happens as I welcome the sensation. And we're not trying to force or change anything. Right. And so acceptance is like, kind of like an open arms, willingness to experience whatever showing up.
- [24:26]
Christina Orlova
Right.
- [24:26]
Dr. Marisa Maza
And seeing and noticing what happens when I do that.
- [24:29]
Christina Orlova
Yeah. So if we were gonna, like, because we've covered some diffusion and acceptance tools, and I know that if, you know, if people are listening, if we're going to kind of summarize it, I guess for each one of those, what would you say would be something that, like, if they're just starting out, that they could do on both of those to start to practice this a little bit. And again, disclaimer here, folks. We're not talking about doing this compulsively or repetitively. We're saying genuinely to slow down and really, you know, understand what the technique is and just give it a little taste like an experiment, to feel it out, to see kind of what, what happens for you. But what would be one for diffusion and one for acceptance that you would want to tell folks?
- [25:14]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Sure, I would say for diffusion, I would say just start noticing the thought. Right. And so you can do that by labeling it as I'm noticing the thought that. Right. Or I'm noticing the mind telling me that you can picture your thought on a billboard or you can imagine it, you know, on a cloud and just simply watching the thought float by. Whichever one of those speaks to you, I'd say just try it and just see what happens. And again, we're not doing it to get rid of the thought. Like the thought will come back, but notice what happens as you let the thought go. Are you then able to redirect perhaps to an exposure or, or to just present moment? What are you seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing in that moment?
- [26:01]
Christina Orlova
Right.
- [26:03]
Dr. Marisa Maza
In terms of acceptance, I mean, I think the first part is just really acknowledging like I am feeling blank, like what is the feeling? Right. Like a fill in the blank. I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling scared, I'm feeling mad, helpless, hopeless. Right. Labeling the emotion. And this is tricky because this is prime time for our, our little critics to show up and say what's wrong with you? Or to mental problem solve that emotion away or to go into some kind of compulsion. Right? So once you identify the emotion, I'm feeling sad, try like maybe placing a hand on the heart and, or just simply saying something like it's okay that I feel this way. Right. I like to take it a step further and use a self compassion script that I borrow from Dr. Kristin Neff and Chris Girma, which is like, it's okay that I feel sad or anxious. Everyone feels sad or anxious sometimes. Reminding yourself you're not alone, that everyone has big difficult emotion. Right. And lastly, just kind of making a wish for yourself as though it's like your birthday and you're blowing out your candles. So. And these kind of can link to one's values. So for example, like, may I be open and accepting of all my experiences. May I be present in my life. May I be kind to myself. Right. So it just kind of starts again like I'm just gonna review it one more time. Like I feel anxious. It's okay that I feel anxious. Everyone feels anxious sometimes. Talking to yourself as though you're talking to a dear friend.
- [27:56]
Christina Orlova
I love that.
- [27:58]
Dr. Marisa Maza
May I be kind to myself. And I just want to preface saying that sometimes when we open up like this, it can bring up a bit of pain. It can bring up memories and experiences of pain in which we kind of needed that type of love and acceptance and didn't get it. And if that happens, hang in there, take it slow, have someone help you through it. Right? But just know, like, the work you're doing is what will help get you to that big, beautiful life that you deserve and want. And just kind of remember that like your mind was made for you, not by you. Right? So I'm borrowing that by Dr. Gilbert. Your mind is made for you, not by you. So it's not your fault that you're having these experiences, but it is your responsibility to figure out how do you work with it, how do you want to live with it? We're all deserving of love and living a big beautiful life. It's our birthright. Right? But whether or not you choose to love yourself in that way is completely up to you. But no, like, you're not alone with it. And so many people out there, including, you know, me, you, Christina, I run support groups, I see peers with OCD supporting each other all the time. Know that you're not alone in your struggles as well as in your growth.
- [29:42]
Christina Orlova
I mean, that was so beautiful and motivational and touching. I, I don't even want to say anything else. I just want to say thank you so much for sharing that. I appreciate that you named. You know, this isn't your fault, but also it is your responsibility though, how you want to work with this aspect of yourself so that you can get better because you're with you. And yeah, just thank you so much for sharing the ways people can practice and beautiful, beautiful reminder of how to incorporate some of that self kindness and compassion into their daily life. Thank you so much. And again, if folks would like to find you, how can they find you?
- [30:21]
Dr. Marisa Maza
Thanks again for having me. And folks are welcome to check out my website, choicetherapy.net awesome.
- [30:28]
Christina Orlova
Thanks. Thanks for listening to the OCD Whisperer podcast. Remember, freedom from OCD is a journey and you're not alone. Visit www.corresults.com to explore self help Master classes like like Sneaky Rituals with Jenna Overbaugh or ICBT Masterclass with Christina Inabe. Don't forget to grab your OCD CBT journal tracker and planner while you're there. If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe share and leave a five star review to help others find the podcast. Together we can make a difference. Keep going and I'll see you in the next episode.