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177. Why You’re Never "Ready": Dr. Lauren Cook on Social Atrophy & The Emetophobia Trap
00:18:22
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to OCD Whisperer podcast, guys. If you find these conversations useful and helpful, please subscribe and hit that notification bell on today. With me, I have Dr. Lauren Cook, and we're going to dive into a whole lot of stuff about Gen Z's millennials, mental health stress. So we'd love to welcome you on the show, Dr. Cook, and tell us a little bit about yourself.
- [00:20]
B
Thank you, Christina. So good to be here with you. Hi, everybody. I'm Dr. Lauren Cook, and I'm a licensed clinical psychologist practicing here in Pasadena. Work with clients throughout the state of California, though. And anxiety work in particular has had such a calling on my heart. I love working with all facets of it, whether it's generalized anxiety, social anxiety, panic attacks. A lot of people know about my work with a metaphobia in particular, because I'm very open about my own lived experience with the metaphobia, which is a phobia of vomit, a really fun one. But I love especially helping millennials and Gen Z as we navigate through life changes, whether that's going to college or getting married or relationships ending or starting families. A lot of anxiety can really pop up for folks during those big life transitions. And I love being able to walk alongside people in the journey of that.
- [01:19]
C
Hi, I'm Christina Orlova, host of the OCD Whisperer podcast. As someone who lives with ocd, I. I understand the struggles firsthand. If you're here, you're not alone. Before we start, grab your free OCD survival kit at www.corresults.com to help you take control. That's K O R results dot com. Now let's dive into today's episode.
- [01:48]
A
I love that. Thank you so much for sharing all that. I guess, if it's okay. Actually, can we start a little bit with your own experience with emetophobia? I know sometimes people with OCD can have that or emetophobia, and you can also just have that as a, you know, just its own phobia. But if you don't mind just sharing with us a little bit. And then what? Like, what did you do for your own journey with that?
- [02:09]
B
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's so nice that it's becoming more commonplace in terms of people knowing about what it is. When I was growing up in the 90s and the. The early 2000s, I had never heard the word of that, and I don't think people really around me even knew that was a thing. And unfortunately, a lot of people with emetophobia can get shamed a lot. It's like, wow, what an unsympathetic jerk. You know, you're. You're that one who's like, running away or having a panic attack when your friend in school is throwing up. And it can feel pretty awful, you know, when you don't understand the underpinnings of it or what treatment can look like. And it was getting to such a debilitating point in my life where I was having trouble going to a restaurant and being stuck in a booth. I was having trouble being on an airplane. And then I got to a season in my life of whether or not I wanted to have kids. And it was so scary for me, the idea of morning sickness and children vomiting, that I was ready to write off the whole idea of parenthood. And that's when I really realized in my life, I. Wow. My anxiety is dictating one of the most massive decisions in my life. I may not have children for other reasons, but I do not want it to be because of my experience with emetophobia. And so I did the work. I met with a therapist. We did ERP exposure and response prevention therapy together. It was really challenging for me at first, but honestly, I was able to learn that vomit is just a gross thing, but it doesn't have to be something that, you know, feels like a life or death fear. And one of the things I am so proud of in my life is the decision to become a mom. And, you know, now I have a two and a half year old son. I'm pregnant with baby number two right now.
- [03:57]
A
Right. Congrats.
- [04:00]
B
Thank you. So, and now it's so fun, you know, I have clients come to me who live with emetophobia as well. And I always let my clients know. We do our reps together, if you will. And we, whether it's watching vomit videos or some folks are at a place where it's hard for them to even say the word vomit or puke or whatever it may be. And so I love meeting people where they're at with it and really being able to show them that they can live with whatever they're afraid of and it doesn't need to stop them from living their full life.
- [04:31]
A
Well. And thank you for sharing that. So let's, let's pivot for a second and talk about then, like, what do you see with Gen Z's and Millennials in terms of when we're talking about anxiety and mental health? I mean, of course there's a ton of stuff on the Internet always, you know, Right. Like we, we hear things like social media or you know, devices or AI or I mean, I think there's a lot more out there. But just in your experiences especially you said this is kind of a focal point for you too. And working specifically with millennials and Gen Z's, like what would you say for, for those two is like, what are some of the differences or common things you see coming up or, or influencing them in terms of their, their own mental health?
- [05:16]
B
Yeah, I would say we kind of have a little bit of a trifecta going on. And I write about this in Generation Anxiety 1. There's a lot more social anxiety with Gen Z especially. And I think the pandemic, not shockingly like really kind of kicked that off even more. So, you know, a lot of people didn't have to face their fears anymore of getting up and giving a speech in class or asking someone out on a date. And our social skills are like muscles. If you don't use those muscles, they atrophy. And I think people saw how easy it could be to not socially interact with others. And so that social anxiety, the more we avoid it, the bigger that hill to climb can feel. The other thing really going on is actually a lot of separation anxiety. A lot of people think separation anxiety is, you know, the little kid clinging on to their parents preschool, but we actually see it at the highest rate amongst college students. And I think part of what that is is that this generation, we're not necessarily teaching them about their resilience, they're not learning about their ability to withstand pain. I think this generation can really struggle with distress tolerance skills, skills of sitting with that uncomfortable uncomfortability. And so the idea of losing their loved ones, as horrible and scary as that would be, they don't do that full processing of how would I cope in my life when painful, scary things happen. And so you see this separation anxiety, this fear of change like really pop up for this generation. And then the third thing I'll say is we're definitely seeing a lot of attachment triggers, a lot of anxious attachment, a lot of avoidant attachment. People are afraid to really get themselves in relationships where they could get hurt, you know, and really put themselves out there or on the opposite end. You know, they're so afraid that they can't find anybody else, and so they cling to these relationships that really may not be serving them. So I'd say we're seeing an uptick in that anxious attachment, that avoidant attachment. And I love helping people move into that secure place of really seeing how they can have these healthy interdependent relationships, if you will. Yeah.
- [07:31]
A
And of course, anybody listening, the question immediately comes to mind, how. How do you do that? Right. Because, like, I can't help it. Like, I'm on my phone or I think I'm connecting, or it's easier for me to just text. I don't want to get on a phone call, or, you know, like, oh, let me just scroll. And, you know, I'm. I just need a little break from things. And suddenly it's not a break. It's, you know, hours later. And so. Yeah, how. How would you exactly.
- [07:54]
B
I am so much a behaviorist. As a psychologist, I am always giving my clients homework. I'm always helping them put this into play in the real world. It's probably in part why I love exposure therapy too. You know, our brains tend to skew really negative, and if we listen to that constant stream of talk telling us, you're not good enough, you're not ready, anxiety loves to tell us we're not ready and that we need more time. You know, And I'm always telling my clients, you're never going to be ready. There's always gonna. You're gonna feel like you need more time. You gotta just go do. And embrace the mess, embrace the imperfection. Anxiety is all about releasing control and allowing ourselves to get a little messy and mucky in our lives. And that resilience piece comes through when we know we can get ourselves up after we've gotten into the mess of things a little bit. And that's where I really feel like liberated living happens when we're not so connected to the outcomes of things because we. We know we'll be able to get through whatever those outcomes may be.
- [08:56]
A
Okay. And we both know, I think that, you know, like, conceptually, that's. That's such a wonderful, beautiful thing. Right. But I think, and please tell me if you. If you hear this, but often it's things like, but it's so scary, or the feeling is so big, or I feel like I'm just going to melt or I'm going to like, fall into the ground, or I'm just. I can't. Right. There's this visceral reaction. What would you say to that?
- [09:20]
B
Yeah, two things, you know, one, you do have to meet people where they're at. Like, I am such a big believer in not flooding clients. You know, there's so much research that. That can be really traumatic for people. And we never want exposures or challenges to traumatize people. It's gotta be a trauma informed Approach to care. So I'm always asking my clients, what are your suds? What's your subjective units of distress? Right. And I ask them to give me a number, that scale of 0 to 100. And I'm hoping that the client is going to say it's like a 40 to 60 range. Because then that tells me, okay, it's uncomfy for them, but they can withstand it. But if they're telling me, oh, Lauren, if I have to go try XYZ, that's a 70, 80, 90, we're not going to do that. Let's scale it back. The client needs to be in the driver's seat. Full consent to whatever we are challenging ourselves trying to do. It's not healthy therapeutic care if the therapist is pushing more than a client is ready. So that's the first piece, and then the second piece that I think is one of the gifts of therapy is that we can tell clients what we've seen with our tens of hundreds of clients that we've worked through to remind them, you are going to be able to get through this. You will see through this. On the other side, give them some faith. A classic example. Somebody with an anxious attachment who's so afraid to break up a relationship that is not working, not serving them. How will I ever survive the breakup? It's reminding and normalizing. I let clients know all the time. A bad breakup is like a really bad emotional flu. You're not going to feel good for a few weeks, you know? And that's where our distress tolerance comes in. Not being afraid of not feeling good for a while, but then reminding them that people go through breakups all the time, that people recover through breakups and they go on to find healthy relationships. Because anxious attachment can tell you there's no one else like this person. Well, there's a lot of fish in the sea, you know. And so reminding clients of that long range and what we see long term, I think can give clients a little bit more hope and endurance to go through some really tough things sometimes.
- [11:31]
A
Well, and so how do you. How do you think stress plays a role in this? Do you think we're, like, more stressed, less stressed? Because, you know, you hear so much about that. Stress is. Is in itself, like, one of the biggest drivers for a lot of health issues and things like that. What's. What's your take on this?
- [11:48]
B
Oh, yeah, I'm glad you bring that up. And, and I think millennials, especially, I'm a millennial myself, and Jenzy struggles with it, too. There's such an attachment to achievement and perception and appearance. All of these things I think can cause people a tremendous amount of stress. And even if they achieve those things, lo and behold, a lot of times they find, shoot, I'm not that happy. And so one thing I this is why I love acceptance and commitment therapy or act. I really love helping clients. Recenter on what are your values? Because a lot of people don't actually know what their values are. They know what their parents values are or what they feel like society's values are. And then they get into their late 20s, their early 30s, and they're like, shoot, I'm miserable in my life. And. And it's like, well, maybe we've been living for the values of a lot of other people other than yourself. And so really helping folks. Recenter I think that can take down a lot of the stress because that cuts down on the people pleasing, trying to make everybody else happy. And once again, you got to come back to that distress tolerance work. When you're living in accordance with your values, you may have people around you who don't love that. Right. Because you're no longer doing exactly what they want. You can do that work to learn. I can sit with people, maybe not being happy with me or even being angry with me. Like, you just open the box to a whole new amazing adventure to your life.
- [13:19]
A
Yeah. And I mean a lot of this stuff as you're saying it, I mean, it all takes practice. Right. Because I often get, I'm sure you do too, right? Comments on your social media accounts and things like that. Like, ugh, this just seems so hard. Or oh, this seems almost impossible. Or there's almost like this defeat defeated kind of energy or vibrant something going on there. Right. Where part of it's like, well, part of it is bringing awareness to something. But not just awareness is then practicing kind of catching it. Right. Seeing it, recognizing it for what it is. You know, would you say awareness is a big piece of this puzzle? It's not just the conceptually knowing or reading something, but like to put it in practice actually requires big piece of that work.
- [14:01]
B
Oh yeah, 100%. And I write about this in Generation Anxiety. This idea of empowered acceptance of like first pieces. You do have to build awareness and accept what is like. You can't run away from the realities of your life. You can't run away from the realities of this world. I think that causes a lot of people anxiety trying to put their head in the sand. But we can't solve the problems if we don't know what the problems are. As painful as the problems are to say with. We have to accept first and then we need to be empowered. We need to take action. Like what are the small ways where we can feel like we're moving the needle and, and to find some peace in that? I think for a lot of us it's never going to feel like enough. And I think that's why people feel so overwhelmed and so stressed right now of like I'm one small speck in this universe that feels so problematic. But how do you want your small speck to be a movement for the good? You know, and that's still matters. There's still worth and meaning in that and helping people kind of reconnect to their sense of purpose and place in this world. When I think a lot of people feel really powerless and kind of helpless and hopeless right now.
- [15:16]
A
Yeah. So if you can leave our, our audience with just like what's one thing they could do to I guess move closer towards that. Like one tip. One, one. Something. Anything from your experience.
- [15:28]
B
Yeah. I mean coming back to values, it's, it's anything you care about. Like, you know, I think for a lot of us who are parents, myself included, one way we feel like we're hopefully making the impact in the world is, is how we're raising our children, you know, and really being intentional in our homes about the values we're hoping to instill in our family. I, I think that's a way you can find meaning. It may be writing to your legislators. It may be, you know, know, showing up at a rally, at a protest. It, it could be anything for anyone but doing something where you feel empowered and you don't feel like life is just happening to you. And I, I will say this too. You know, it's giving yourself the permission to hold the dialect, the both end of life that we can feel the tremendous pain and sadness of the world and hold so much empathy for that and feel the stress of that and still give ourselves the permission to enjoy the good that's happening in our lives at the same time. Like that does not make you a bad person to enjoy a great meal with your family and cry about what you see happening in the news at the same time. You know, it doesn't have to wholly impact one or the other. Our brains are so complex and I think we try and feel like we have to be these one dimensional beings.
- [16:49]
A
Yes.
- [16:49]
B
We really can hold the complexity of all of it together and not guilt ourselves for that.
- [16:55]
A
I love that. I You know I want to thank you for coming on the show and sharing your insights, your wisdom. I love that you ended with that. I think that's beautiful. The both and world and so if people would like to find you, how can they find you?
- [17:08]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So you can find our practice at Heartship like a heart and heartship. We give you heart through the hardships Hardship Psychological Services. We help all clients who have a California address and we're in person for folks in Los Angeles and Pasadena area. And if folks are ever needing a speaker for their company or team, you can find me on drlaurencook.com and you can pick up Generation Anxiety wherever you like to buy books.
- [17:36]
A
Amazing. Thanks for coming on the show.
- [17:38]
B
Thank you Christina. Be well.
- [17:43]
C
Thanks for listening to the OCD Whisperer podcast. Remember, freedom from OCD is a journey and you're not alone. Visit www.coraresults.com to explore self help masterclasses like Sneaky Rituals with Jenna Overbaugh or ICBT Masterclass with Christina Inabe. Don't forget to grab your OCD CBT journal tracker and planner while you're there. If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe, share and leave a five star review to help others find the possibility. Podcast together we can make a difference. Keep going and I'll see you in the next episode.