← The OCD Whisperer Podcast with Kristina Orlova
The OCD Whisperer Podcast with Kristina Orlova
178. Why You Feel Like a "Fraud" Even When You’re Successful (High-Functioning OCD)
00:26:25
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- [00:02]
A
Dear Friday, Toyota says let's put good times in gear with the tundra Tacoma and 4Runner. Want some cool available features. We've got power tailgates to power game days and a trailer backup guide. That's the champ of the ramp. Heck, we might even cancel Monday Toyota trucks. Find yours@toyota.com toyota let's go places.
- [00:30]
B
Welcome to OCD Whisperer, guys. With me today I have Pavel Repo and so we are going to be talking about his story with OCD and really kind of how you can have a really meaningful, beautiful life even with ocd. So welcome to the show.
- [00:44]
C
Thank you so much for having me.
- [00:46]
B
Yeah, so I love for people to tell us a little bit about themselves in the beginning so that the audience can get familiar with you. So what is your story?
- [00:55]
C
Yeah, I'll kind of give you the highlights. I, I live in Colorado, but I actually work in Uganda in Africa. I run a small organization but mighty that actually works to integrate mental health within primary care. So we have a quite a large team to talk about OCD mental health. This is a very much a thorough line of my life. And then I just started kind of a new job which is actually giving away money to support early stage bold work. So I'd like to think that kind of what I'm committed to is how do we support systems of care and trust and that's kind of what's undergirding my life nowadays.
- [01:31]
B
I love it. That's really cool and sounds like really meaningful. Hi, I'm Christina Orlova, host of the OCD Whisperer podcast. As someone who lives with ocd, I understand the struggles firsthand. If you're here, you're not alone. Before we start, grab your free OCD survival kit at www.corresults.com to help you take control. That's K O R results.com now let's dive into today's episode. So I guess let's dive in and talk a little bit about you. Like how did you first learn or know you have OCD goodness?
- [02:12]
C
OCD has been maybe the most important, most difficult, most wholesome part of my life. I, I remember about age 13, kind of my very first experience with it. It was in the, the midst of my parents getting divorced. I'd like to think that was maybe the culprit of me kind of developing ocd. Our household was really not, not well. It was very turbulent, very tenuous, a lot of ill will, bickering, a lot of yelling. And I think I remember kind of telling myself that goodness If I was to ask a question with my mom and my dad, what if that would start another argument. What if. What if I would be the reason that they would yell even more or kind of go off on each other? So I think in my kind of understanding, my early understanding, I said, I'm going to isolate myself for fear of sparking another argument. I can control this world. I know I'm responsible and give myself a bit of peace of mind. Obviously, the irony here is that OCD did not give me peace of mind. That kind of. That kind of catalyzes whole journey of ocd. But that was my first experience, and it actually started with hand washing, which maybe, maybe is kind of a typical gateway contamination, light switches. But I would wash my hands for about 40 or so minutes, and they would start to crack and bleed and have this kind of leathery exterior like a football. And that. That was the beginning of my OCD journey.
- [03:40]
B
Okay. And so I know also, I want to kind of pause for a second with your name. Right. Pavel Repo. So you are. Tell us a little bit of where you're from, because I do want to ask about, like, culturally. Right. Like, how does that play into, you know, mental health, ocd?
- [03:57]
C
Great, great question as well. I often think about this. I was actually born in. In Belarus. It's a small Eastern European country. Right. By Poland, by Ukraine. And I'm. I moved to Colorado when I was about 5 years old, and I've spent most of my childhood, my adult life here. And Christina, you make a great point. Right. I. And maybe you would kind of also agree with this. I think kind of the, The. The common understanding of mental health or depression or OCD is that you don't have it.
- [04:28]
B
Yeah.
- [04:31]
C
People that come from that part of the world, you just choose happiness. You grit it out, you bite your tongue, you just go for it. And I think when I started, don't forget also.
- [04:44]
B
And you drink along the way. You could be an alcoholic or you could have schizophrenia, but nothing else.
- [04:50]
C
I actually think a lot of people drink because that's the way that they cope. So maybe that's why such high incidences of alcoholism. At any rate, when I started even doing my work with mental health and Uganda and ocd, I think that that was a. An odd conversation to have with my parents. They had a difficult time kind of understanding and I think even kind of come into the senses of, oh, my gosh, my. My son is saying this thing. I. I want to be a good parent. I'm not sure what he's quite saying. But I'm going to do my best to, to understand. And it's been years of, of kind of common dialogue and understanding to get to a place of, hey, I have this and it's okay and it's normal. And I may choose happiness, but that doesn't always help with my depression or ocd. It's. It's still there.
- [05:37]
B
Yep. I can choose, I can want it, but I still have ocd.
- [05:43]
C
That's right. That's right.
- [05:45]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay, so with that in mind and everything you just said, I guess, kind of a little bit about then your journey, like how. What did you do about it? When. How did you figure this out? Because. Right. It's really common. We hear like it takes forever before somebody, like something happens and they finally actually go and get, get assessed and kind of figure out, oh, you have this thing called ocd. Like in my case, I, I didn't really put this together until, you know, mid to later 30s. Like, it was such a long time of going with this and not knowing and so many things could have been different. But. Yeah, what was that like for you?
- [06:22]
C
You know, I, with, with the hand washing, the life swishes and the doorknobs, my, My brother started to kind of take stock of. Of these odd behaviors. And my brother being older, he, I don't think quite knew what, what to do with it. So he would kind of yell, stop doing that. What are you doing? And I think in some kind of warped way, because he was older, I listened. I didn't want to upset him. So inadvertently, some of those kind of early, again, light switches, doorknobs, that actually kind of faded away, but it would only also appear kind of in places where I was by myself. So if I was also at school or in more of a social setting, kind of those black and white thoughts, the moral kind of ocd, the scrupulosity pieces as well, it would vanish in the context of others. But also when I was by myself, that's when it would kind of reign supreme most. I think. I think I did a good job of kind of camouflaging and hiding it. Right. Perfectionism, achieving, getting good grades. It was good to masquerade so cd because I was excelling. And when folks would point out, gosh, your behaviors are a little bit, you know, over the top. Well, my grades were also excellent and that, that pushed me to be a good steward, a good student in my, in my schooling. You know, Christina, I got, I got help for OCD in my early 20s. So from about 13, for the next 10 or so years, it would come up and around, but it never really took hold of me until. Until it did. And relationship OCD was actually the reason I started to kind of seek, seek support. I started to imagine that I was doing these wrongdoings or was being deceitful. And in that deceit I was cheating or being dishonest. So I started to confess, confess everything to my partner at that time. And I felt this incredible elation rush of I confessed, I feel incredible rapture. And then it would happen again and again and my relationship and she would became kind of the punching bag in that, until I felt out of control. And at that point I did see kind of professional therapy services because I truly felt like an alien. But having kind of the context of, you know, this, this is OCD actually gave me some peace of mind. And we had something then to kind of work at that that has started a decades long journey with therapy. Had an OCD coach and I feel like I'm in a better place, but goodness. Still, still kind of learning as a, as I go.
- [09:00]
B
Yeah, I mean that I think is just a very fair point. I mean, to be honest, the relationship OCD is one of the ways my OCD shows up and just write and some morality stuff. But like that was one of those. For years you don't know and you don't know what you don't know. So like, you confess. Like in my case, I would say I'm sorry all the time to the point where some of my friends got burnt out. They're like, dude, I just like, I need a break. Or you know, relationships would kind of blow up or relationships like friendships would blow up. Relationships were unsteady and Right. And you don't know what's going on. You just, you just. A lot, I think a lot of times think, well, maybe it's out there, maybe it's me, but maybe it's out there until like you said, something happens. You're like, wait a second, something here isn't right. So what was your turning point? I guess for like once you started treatment, like, what did you do? Right, because there's different treatment options. What did you do where it started to finally kind of click a little bit and you started to get some of that relief?
- [09:57]
C
I think even for me, I didn't even have the basic kind of foundational knowledge of what OCD was. I felt like things were happening not at my discretion. And I felt truly kind of out of, out of bounds. And at that point Right. I wanted to salvage whatever I had of that relationship. So I think that that was a really big incentive and motivator just for me to seek that help. So I started reading everything I could, attempting to kind of learn on my own, but having a safe space with my therapist where we would actually delve deeper into that and just general therapy. So obviously, ERP remarkable. But at that point, therapy was new to me. When we talk about, you know, being. Being born in Belarus, the Eastern block therapy isn't even as accepted. Right. This idea of I'm a white man going to therapy. Yes, it took. It took a little bit of that stigma to just kind of be more humble and public with that, with my parents of I need help. And they didn't quite understand that. So even that CBT alone was. Was. Was wonderful and kind of getting just some distance between my thoughts and my actions and knowing what OCD was. I have since been going to therapy, and I have exclusively been working on erp And I think. I think that that has been really remarkable to have a focus and to actually have more calculated work that I can do in some of my symptoms, as opposed to maybe more wraparound therapy. That felt good in general, but. But now I needed a little bit something more streamlined.
- [11:27]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think that's also really common. Right. Like, we don't know what we don't know too, in this area, so we can kind of lean towards what I think generally we know is, oh, let me just go do some talk therapy or some kind of basic processing. But you might not realize you're actually starting to compulse mentally now. And, you know, if the person doesn't know, really, then they don't know when to kind of actually cut things off. But I guess let's talk a little bit about. Because you're doing all this work. So, like, how did. How did this, what you're learning and doing there, start to translate into, you know, living a life that's actually meaningful for you? Right. Because I think this is where people get stuck is like, you know, you're in the grips of this thing and this notion of even that. I, like, can I really let go of these things in my head and then these feelings I have and really live my life on my terms. That just feels so, like, such a big distant goal. How did. How did you do it?
- [12:27]
C
I. I've often kind of leaned back on acceptance and commitment therapy as actually being a bit of a north star to this. Sometimes my feelings, my thoughts, my emotions, they can be really sneaky and they can kind of fool me.
- [12:44]
A
Dear Friday Toyota says let's put good times in gear with the Tundra Tacoma and 4Runner want some cool available features. We've got power tailgates to power game days and a trailer backup guide that's the trailer champ of the ramp. Heck, we might even cancel Monday Toyota trucks. Find yours@toyota.com Toyota let's go places.
- [13:13]
D
WSECU isn't just one of Washington's best credit unions. We're a Forbes Best in State five years running. Why? Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member owned corner cooperative, we love Washington as much as you do. From the Olympic mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being. Because what we really do best is invest in you. Visit wsecu.org today to learn more. Washington let's Credit Union to believe certain
- [13:44]
C
stuff that isn't aligned with who I am. So the values, the core values, is often something I lean upon. And my values are persistence or forgiveness or joy, courage. Those pieces that sometimes could be in kind of stark contrast to your feelings or I feel like I shouldn't be doing this, I'm anxious, I don't want to leave the house. So I think when I fall back on those values, that was actually a really key kind of anchor to me pursuing the life that I have. I've always loved kind of being creative, seeing myself as someone who could potentially have meaningful impact in the world and was very fortunate to be around people that started their own companies, had incredible social impact and had really remarkable people by my side who believed in me. And I've really remembered myself in high school when I would sit in front of my textbook and come across a math problem that was very difficult. I wasn't particularly quick with my intelligence, but what I knew about myself is that I could outsit anyone. I, I, I would not fail with sheer time and sheer persistence like that. That was a skill I, I had. I mean, and maybe, maybe OCD was actually, I don't want to say this maybe out loud a benefit to that because it allowed me to kind of persist at a particular problem. But I just never thought I could not, not figure anything out. And that started to translate and kind of trickle into what I'm doing now with my work in Uganda, with my work now giving away money to support bold initiatives. And it still comes up. I mean, goodness. Christina Our team is Ugandan, fully Uganda. We have about 50 or so people and I'm based here in Colorado. And you can imagine that with OCD and being so far from the actual on the ground impact, micromanaging or remote leadership often bleeds and OCD kind of rears its fangs in that area knowing, needing to know that they're working, that the work is being done correctly, that it's just perfect. And I think initially, yeah, I probably wasn't a very pleasant boss or manager, but. But goodness, our ambitions are vast. We want to see mental health become a really a key focal part of primary care writ large. And it demands delegation. I can't do everything and some things may fall through the cracks, but, but that, that the work demands itself to be that way. And I'm going to do everything in my power to not let OCD kind of wreak havoc on what we're creating and what we're building.
- [16:22]
B
Well, okay, so there's two things in what you just said. So one is it sounds like if we just go with this most recent one, it's almost like adopting a whole different, I guess we could say like mindset on life, which is just to say, you know what, let me just let it be and kind of trust and if something falls through, I'll at some point learn about it and I'll address it at that time. Which that kind of stance is really hard if, you know, you've got that perfectionism just right. Ocd. And we're not talking about just your regular, regular perfectionistic type A, hey, I love this and I go for this. We're talking about if something isn't exactly perfect, do I need it? There's this huge catastrophe and you can have an onset of a panic attack and so on. So how did that mindset shift happen? I'm sure that didn't happen overnight. Obviously it did not.
- [17:13]
C
When I set out to do the work that I'm doing in Uganda, I had the intention of moving to Uganda and living there for a year. And it was on a very shoestring budget. I wanted to get a study approved and to really kind of validate the work that we were doing. So I was doing it all. I mean, Christine, I was putting in 18 hour days. To your point about this perfectionism component, I was driving from town to town, I mean really just burning myself to the ground. Until about two and a half months into that, I felt completely drained, just a shell of myself, suicidal ideation, depression, everything you can imagine. And I had to leave. I had to leave Uganda and come home and maybe kind of kind of give myself the permission. Like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. This isn't serving myself. I took. I took a bit of time to just like restore and repair. Didn't do any work. Spent it with my. With my then girlfriend, my now wife with family, and I think kind of healed myself to a bit. And what really changed or kind of triggered this new growth or this new phase is we started to build a team. And initially that was a little bit difficult. Right, Folks, folks needed to get paid. We didn't have perhaps the money to pay them, but they rallied behind the vision. And I think once you're able to get one person on board, that maybe brings another person. We started to work with these health facilities, and folks started to believe in the hope and the optimism of what we were building. And at that point, I didn't have to kind of break my back to do everything. And I also felt like I had people I could share with some of these pains and worries and obsessions about work being just perfect. It was no longer mine fully. I could actually kind of divide and share that. And goodness, that's. That's been life changing. And I think I owe all my success to just having a team of peers, friends of colleagues that I trust and that. That really see me for who I. For who I am.
- [19:14]
B
That's amazing. Yeah. So, I mean, it sounds like part of that process, and that shift is organically almost like as you kept going, like meeting a person who started to kind of see and believe and get behind the vision, and then it just built out from there. I mean, this just speaks to how, you know, humans are pretty amazing if you think about it, with what we can do, if we have something, you know, I think something more. More. Something bigger than ourselves. Right. So the second thing I wanted to circle back to that you said, and I know you said, I'm kind of even nervous putting it out there, but I'm like, you know what, let's go there. Because I do think that sometimes on the Internet, like all the things on the Internet, you know, I have seen people sometimes make those kind of statements, like the air. I say, sometimes in this way, OCD was a benefit. And I know sometimes people look at that really kind of unfavorably and there gets a lot of criticism. But, you know, I mean, why not let's talk about your experience of it. Because I think there's something to be said for. Look, everybody has their own experience of things. And I know even for me, you know, as much as I've been doing this, and I have, I dare say, enough experience in this that I should feel confident to make a statement myself. But sometimes I get nervous. So I'm going to go for it because I will say that at times with. Once I understood the OCD aspects and understood what was going on, I realized that some of the things I was doing before, they were both to my benefit and definitely driven by ocd. And they were also, at the same time the things that would drain and cause issues. So, like the benefit might be initial, but it wouldn't necessarily be long, long term or long lasting. Right. But I didn't know, so I just thought, oh, it's just me. And then later I learned, no, that wasn't just you. You were doing that because, you know, oh, you wanted the approval, the people pleasing, because you wanted to get it right. You were so focused on getting it right. Like the morality that just. Right. The perfectionism all coming together in this way. And that's what it was. But again then later it became to a detriment because you either micromanage or you're burning yourself out, or now instead of being able to be done and move on with your life, you're like, oh my God, I'm still sitting here. 18, 19, 20 hours later, everybody else left, but I'm still here. Um, so I guess, yeah, like, what's your experience of that when you put that out there? Because sounds like some of it was a little helpful, but then it wasn't.
- [21:36]
C
No, it's. I, I don't think I have a perfect answer for this. It's. It's a bit of a double edged sword. Maybe before I kind of talk about some of the benefits, I'll preface and say I, I would give much of my success if I didn't have ocd. I would give it away. Meaning OCD has wreaked immeasurable havoc. So maybe I'll preface with that. But to your point, Christina, I think in my brain, the tenacity, the dogged persistence, the ideal of I'm not going to stop until this is complete, has probably kept me in certain stuff much longer than a typical or average person. So even when things may not be going well, I will do everything in my power to allow it to flourish, to succeed. If that's at the expense of me being completely depleted, my work, this meaningful, kind of purposeful objective I have at my hand, that'll take up everything, for me to actually see that to fruition, I think that's wonderful. I'M grateful for that, for that drive. But. But you make. You make a great point of it. It's. It's a slippery slope because I also completely exhaust myself. I. I just. I just became a father four and a half months ago.
- [22:59]
B
Oh, congratulations.
- [23:01]
C
Thank you. Thank you. And I'm. I'm much more mindful now of what I give to. To work in, in kind of lie of my ocd, because I want to have something left in my tank for family. And I think before. Before I had baby Luca, I wasn't as mindful of that. But now I want to be a present father, have the joy, have the energy. So I'm a little bit more cautious of how do I kind of hold something back. And I've not quite kind of struck a balance in that. So tips are very welcome. So I could be a much more present father.
- [23:39]
B
Well, I mean, I think, honestly, like, when people talk about balance, too, I think this is just what I've seen over time is. And I used to think this, that there's some even, like, right way, right, that once I reach this thing, balance, I'll have this thing called balance, and it'll stay. And somebody once said, I don't remember when or who said it, but they said, you know, balance is dynamic. And I'm like, what? And they're like, yeah, it's. It changes. Like, one day, balance looks like this. Next day, balance looks like that. I'm like, oh, I haven't thought about that because I really thought that. No, balance means, you know, you're gonna find that perfect little middle there, and you're gonna just hang out. And it's like, well, no, because one day, it. It does mean I have to do a little more work. One day it's less. One day I have more free time. One day less. And, like, it goes back to what you said earlier, right? That flexibility and, and that mindset shift. But I think more than anything, like, you have something greater than you now to, you know, that makes you pause and say, wait a second. Like, it's not all about work at the end of the day. Right?
- [24:40]
C
Yeah. So still. Still learning that, Christina. There's some lessons there to, to kind of mine. I've not. I've not quite. I'm not quite done there.
- [24:49]
B
Well, I think learning, hopefully, is till the end of our days. I would hope, right? I, I, my. At least that's my personal stance, is I hope I keep learning until my last breath, if you will, that I have the capacity, the mental agility, to continue because you know, I think that's what keeps it interesting. But that's my take
- [25:10]
C
with you. I agree with you.
- [25:12]
B
So I have one last question for you. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think would be important for people listening to know?
- [25:22]
C
I, I think, I think you've kind of hit it on the head and your, your podcast does an incredible job of providing fully variable assortment of treatments of approaches, of personalities, of diversity of background. So I think in my kind of lane, this is what has worked for me and you know, Christina, maybe kind of, you know, some days it's not working right. I think often these podcasts you kind of present this polished perspective that everything is this and that. But there are times throughout the day, day where my energy is nothing. I'm second guessing myself. I'm not being as compassionate with myself. The judgment is rampant. I'm still operating in the OCD brain. Anyways, I just want to maybe kind of this, this is one, one angle of what's happening. But, but the work ever continues and, and we're all human and fickle and things come. Aren't as, as perfect as maybe as they seem. Uh, so that's one last kind of parting thought.
- [26:26]
B
I love that actually. I think that's really critical, to be honest, because I think that's exactly right. It's not always polished. It's actually never polished. It's never just highlight reels. It's the real life is that you're. Yeah. Like you said, sometimes you're depleted and it's just not happening that day. And that's okay. Yeah.
- [26:43]
C
Okay.
- [26:44]
B
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. And so if people would like to find you, how can they find you?
- [26:49]
C
Go find me on my, on my website it's www.afinemind.org a fine mind. And then my email is just pavoafinemind.org and you'll see that all there. You can follow our socials. That's, that's the best way you can get a hold of me. And I'd like to think I'm good with my emails. I respond in a decent time.
- [27:09]
B
That's awesome. Thanks so much. It's great to have you.
- [27:12]
C
I appreciate it. Thank you again.
- [27:17]
B
Thanks for listening to the OCD Whisperer podcast. Remember, freedom from OCD is a journey and you're not alone. Visit www.coraresults.com to explore self help masterclasses like Sneaky Rituals with Jenna Overbaugh or ICBT Masterclass with Christina and Abe. Don't forget to grab your ocd, CBT journal tracker and planner while you're there. If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe, share and leave a five star review to help others find the podcast. Together we can make a difference. Keep going and I'll see you in the next episode.
- [27:57]
D
WSECU isn't just one of Washington's best credit unions. We're a Forbes Best in State five years running. Why? Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member owned cooperative, we love Washington as much as you do, from the Olympic Mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being. Because what we really do best is invest in you. Visit wsecu.org today to learn more. Washington let's Credit Union.