← The OCD Whisperer Podcast with Kristina Orlova
The OCD Whisperer Podcast with Kristina Orlova
191. The Reason You Keep Second-Guessing Yourself (OCD Explained)
00:33:21
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- [00:00]
Katherine Goldhouse
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Christina Orlova
Need a moment to breathe with Podbean's ambient relaxation. Enjoy ocean waves, calming rain, and peaceful nature sounds anytime, anywhere. Whether you're working, studying, meditating, or winding down, your perfect calm is just one tap away. Download the Podbean app today on Google Play and the Apple App Store. Relax with Podbean. P O D B E A N. Welcome to OCD Whisper Podcast, where we talk about ocd, anxiety and related mental health disorders. And if you like these conversations, don't forget to subscribe and turn that notification bell on. So we are having episode four of our ICBT series. So we have Katherine Goldhouse back, and we're going to be talking today about kind of getting back to reality or returning to reality, kind of this. This shift that we want to make. And people get so confused about what does that mean? So welcome back to the show, Katherine, and let's talk about this. What the heck does that mean?
- [01:12]
Katherine Goldhouse
Yeah. Good to be back.
- [01:14]
Christina Orlova
Hi, I'm Christina Orlova, host of the OCD Whisperer podcast. As someone who lives with ocd, I understand the struggles firsthand. If you're here, you're not alone. Before we start, grab your free OCD survival kit at www.corresults.com to help you take control. That's K O R results dot com. Now let's dive into today's episode.
- [01:43]
Katherine Goldhouse
So reality sensing is the nice thing about reality sensing is it's a skill that everybody with OCD already has, right? It's a skill that everybody has. It's just being in touch with reality. It's using your senses to stay connected to reality. You know, how do you know that. That the door is open because you see it. How do you know that the stove is off because you see it. How do you know the phone is ringing? Because you can hear it. You know, we use our. We use our senses, and that also includes our common sense all the time to navigate reality, right? And what happens when someone is stuck in their OCD is they stop trusting and staying connected to their senses and instead go into the imagination. So with reality sensing, all we're doing is asking people, what are your senses say right now? What do you. What can you say you know for sure is true? And I always tell people that that's such a magical question. What do I know for sure in this moment? Because the tendency with OCD is to go, yeah, but what if. Or but maybe you know and no, right? Just what you know for sure. That's all you're going to answer. Because when you Answer that question. Then you have to acknowledge that everything thereafter, everything that comes after the but what if, but maybe, blah, blah, blah. All of that you have to acknowledge comes from the imagination.
- [03:19]
Christina Orlova
Yeah. So, okay, we have to dissect this a little bit, right? Because, I mean, I'm trained in icbd, so when I hear this, I'm like, okay, yeah, I get it. But I, I'm, I'm holding space for when I was first learning this and I didn't fully understand what, what you just said, like, what that meant. Right. Like, I'm, I can understand. Okay, well, like, yeah, I, I, I, I know. Like, if I don't have OCD around, let's say closing doors or stoves, then like, yeah, when I close the door, I know it closed it because I saw it. I, you know, I literally, you know, pulled it, I put my key in, I turned it, and that's that. And I walk away. Or if I use the stove, I know I turn it off, I saw myself turn it off, and that's it. And I do use common sense. Like, I know stoves and doors don't just randomly pop open or turn on, on their own like that. You have to literally do something, so I move on with life. But when you're talking about, you know, areas where the mind OCD brain gets vulnerable and sticky, it is really hard because it's like, on the one hand, you could say, well, I know I'll close that door, but did I really. But what if. So how, how are you really telling the difference between when is it where we're saying, you just said the word right? It will go into the imagination. And I think that's a big piece where there's this, I think, lack of truly really grasping what that concept means, because I think it happens so rapidly and it's so kind of, there's such a fine line sometimes. So let's talk a little bit about that and kind of, what do we mean, you know, like, when we're saying imagination, what are we really talking about here?
- [04:59]
Katherine Goldhouse
Yeah. So people with ocd, they've done studies where they are just as capable of coming to a conclusion as anybody else. The issue shows up with their second guessing. Right. They're, they're more likely to second guess than people without ocd. So everyone, OCD or not, is able to say, yeah, I see the door is open, or no, I don't want to molest a child, or, you know, they're able to come to that conclusion, or what happens with people with ocd. Is they then second guess. So they have a moment of clarity, of certainty, but then they second guess it. And often, you know, it goes really quickly. It feels very fast, but there is that moment because they're doubting, oh, this is true. And then they're doubting, oh, is that. Is that really true? Maybe it's not. What about this? You know, they start to second guess. And so what we're doing with reality sensing is. Is bringing people back to that moment of initial certainty. Right. Of that initial trust before they left and went off into what if land. And, you know, like you said, it seems to happen in an instant. And so I always like to tell people this. This information that, you know, you are just as capable as anybody else of coming to a conclusion by using your senses. The problem is you second guess. And when people start to think about that, they realize, oh, yeah, I guess. I guess it is doubting something after the fact rather than immediately arriving with not being sure. Right?
- [06:48]
Christina Orlova
Yeah. So something like. Like, like, I know, like, oh, my gosh, no, I would never do that. Right? You'll hear stuff like that. Like, I would never do that, or, no, I don't want to, or, no, I wouldn't. But what if. And then there's that. That. But that. Yeah, but. And then we. We kind of are like, okay, I just had that. That something I said that's actually pretty profound, but then very quickly kind of tossed it to the side because what. But wait a minute. But this other thing could be.
- [07:14]
Katherine Goldhouse
Right, Exactly. And so what we're asking people to do with reality sensing is to stay in that place in that. Oh, of course I would not. Or like, yes, I saw this. Yes. Know to be very, very steadfast in their commitment to staying grounded in reality. And the imagination may be this tempting siren. Right. But that's when you have this choice. Do I want to stay grounded in reality or do I want to kind of fall into the abyss of the imagination where anything and everything is possible and I will be stuck in this endless loop. And so it's identifying that moment of ch. Choice. And that can be really empowering for people, too, when they recognize that moment. And so the exercise I'll have people do is imagine standing on a. On a cliff. And when you have that moment where you're just about to jump into. Yeah, but what about this? And just pause for 60 seconds and imagine, do I want to stay grounded in reality or do I want to go off into the imagination? And if I go off into the imagination, I'm Essentially stepping off that cliff. Right. And so that first exercise that. That I'll have people do of just pausing for 60 seconds shows them that. Because people with OCD will say, yeah, but I just. I'm off to the races. It's so automatic. It shows them. No, no, actually you have a little more control than you think that you do. And once they experience that, that's very empowering. And it also starts to create some distance and create a very clear line between reality and imagination.
- [09:09]
Christina Orlova
So what do you commonly see are perhaps maybe some pitfalls or things that maybe in the beginning, when people don't fully understand this, where they can get a little tripped up or confused about this. Like, I'm thinking one examp. Quite often I'll hear things like, but. But I have this feeling. Or like, okay, I. I can see maybe where I have this one thought that's anchored, but then I still have this anxiety or something else is going on in the body. And so it's hard to. Then how could I not? How could I ignore that? Isn't that, though, happening in the moment? And that's real. So how. How am I supposed to then not resolve that? That's just one thing that comes to mind. But, you know, if you can speak to that or other things that you commonly hear where people sometimes get a little confused about. Yeah. What exactly. How to do this or how to really kind of stay with this. Right.
- [10:03]
Katherine Goldhouse
So there's a difference between information from the senses and a sensory experience. So information from the senses arises organically. We don't ever scan for it. Right. We. It just. It's the world telling us what's happening. However, we can have sensations that have nothing to do with reality. For example, if you imagine squeezing a really, you know, close your eyes and really imagine a really juicy lemon, and you hold its. Its citrusy scent up to your nose, and then you imagine slicing it and then slicing it again and then picking up a wedge and squeezing that into your mouth. You know, your mouth may start to water. Right?
- [10:52]
Christina Orlova
Yeah. Everybody have like, a little.
- [10:55]
Katherine Goldhouse
Right. Yet there are no lemons. Right, Right. And so that was your body having a sensory experience, which is just our body responding to the stories that are in our head. It's just our bodies responding to the imagination. For example, you see a scary movie and your heart is racing during certain scenes. Does that mean, like, you're actually in danger? No, it just means you're absorbed in your imagination. Right. And so we have to be very mindful of. Not every sensation is information from the senses. So again, information from the senses arises organically without us having to scan. Whereas a sensory experience often results from scanning or as the result of being really immersed in the imagination.
- [11:49]
Christina Orlova
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- [13:31]
Katherine Goldhouse
Yeah. So it's really demonstrating to them how powerful the imagination is and how convincing it is. And so I'll often do the. The lemon exercise with people or I'll talk about, you know, when was the last time you saw a scary movie and just how convincing our imaginations can be. And so to sort of hold. Be able to hold that. That concept in their mind that just because something feels really real doesn't mean that it's actually based in reality. Right. And so kind of creating some distance, sort of taking an observer's stance to that feeling like, oh, wow, isn't that interesting that this is really trying to convince me. And look at all the ways it's trying to get me to think about past experience or possibility or, you know, the different ways that OCD tries to convince you. OCD is very good at getting you to think. It's the. It's the Real truth. Yeah, there's all these other things, but at the end of the day, like, you really could have done this, you know, or whatever it is, and
- [14:51]
Christina Orlova
being
- [14:51]
Katherine Goldhouse
mindful that that is its trick, right, Is that it. It has a lot of confidence. OCD has a lot of confidence, and it can be very convincing. It's sort of like a sinister salesman, right, who has ton of confidence in whatever it is he's selling. Super charming, seems super smart, super knowledgeable, seems to have a really, you know, good heart and is really cares about you. And yet at the end of the day, he's just a sinister salesman and you can't fall for it. It's a trick. So just because something is sort of seductive in that way, that doesn't mean it's worth listening to.
- [15:37]
Christina Orlova
Yeah. So, I mean, we're really kind of saying it's. It's interesting, right, because it's this internal conversation essentially we're having with ourselves and that when we're entertaining it and entertaining it at face value and kind of almost like you already alluded earlier, saying, like this autopilot model, which is go right into it and treat it as fact and truth like it's written in stone, like it's law, and not slowing down to say, well, hold on a second, but what. Why am I treating it that way? Do I. Do I do that in other areas? And that's really what we're keep talking about here, is saying, let's slow this down and let's. Let's kind of like go back a little bit. How, How. How did you get here so fast? Or like, when did this even first begin for you in your life? Because it could have been something at some point, some stress or something tough that happened, and then it did activate something or some insecurity or something within you, and then it's almost like that became the thing that we on. And now any other experience that mirrors that kind of adds to it. And it's like over time, it becomes this big ball, right, that's been built. And we're not even, I think, seeing that. Well, how that whole thing even came together is. Is also through a really skewed experience. It's not. It's not through a true objective kind of process, if you will, taking everything in. And so I guess one of the questions I have for you, you know, because I know in icbt, we talk a lot about understanding the obsessional doubt, understanding inferential confusion, and then really disqualifying the obsessional doubt, because it's not Based on, you know, any sensory information that anchors it in this moment. It's, it's, it's all based on. But what if this. Or sometimes it's not even a what if. Sometimes it's just a statement. No, it's. It's going to be this. So how can somebody disqualify, I guess, that doubt process and really stick with reality if and when they're. They're trying to do that and trying to engage their senses? But there isn't something right at that moment. Right. It could be one of those doubts that isn't as straightforward as, let's say, you know, looking at a stove and seeing that it's off. Right. Because there's also doubts like that that are maybe more about my, let's say, sexual identity or my mental state. And what if I, you know, lose my mind or things like that? What, what, what then?
- [18:15]
Katherine Goldhouse
Yeah, so a couple of things. So one is to remember that just because something is very convincing, it doesn't mean it's true and worth listening to. Right. And then the other is to, to understand, to. For somebody to be really clear on why they think what they think. If they're questioning their sexuality, if they're questioning their capacity to harm, really asking themselves, what are you basing that on? Because that's often where we see. That's where inferential confusion is. So, for example, growing up, I was told a lot by my dad, it's not nice to leave people out. Like, you really, you need to make sure you include everybody. And he's a very empathic person and just was very sensitive to people being bullied and just always. I was always taught to be really inclusive. And so when I was a little girl, I would do this thing where I never picked the first of anything. I always picked the second or even the last. Or like if I was picking from cereal boxes, I would try to get the one in the very back or the one that was dented because I thought, well, no one's going to pick that one. And so I should pick that one so it doesn't feel left out. Right. And sometimes it would even happen with my body. Like if I stepped on a crack on one with one foot, I would say, well, I have to do it with the other because then the other will feel left out. Right? And so really, really understanding. And we see this with just right. Ocd. A lot of people will say, like, I don't know, I just. It just feels. Feels right. It just. I just have this urge to do it. But it's really important to dig behind or dig beneath, rather, the story. And where does this come from? Exactly? How did this come into place for you? And so that's really key is digging deeper and understanding. Yeah, but what are you. What are you basing this doubt about your sexuality on? Right? Is it. You know, you had a friend that you thought was attractive, and, you know, do you really base one sexuality on, like, one experience with one friend? That doesn't make much sense, really. Getting people to understand their line of thinking and how they arrived at a conclusion. So that's really key because that's where we see people kind of blending things or ultimately making these confused inferences. And so now and then I will. It's not so much that I get triggered, but I'll remember, like, you know, if I step on a crack, I'll remember, like, oh, yeah, the old me would. Would want to step on a crack with my other foot. And of course, I could, like, lean into that, but I don't, because cracks don't care. If, you know, in my body, my one leg doesn't care. You know, it's just. It's nonsense. Right. And so really being mindful of. So what's so interesting about OCD is that there is a logic to it, right? People. These. The thoughts that people have, they're not completely random. They're not. They didn't fall out of the sky out of nowhere. There are certain dots that are getting connected, and the problem is, you know, they're not necessarily grounded in reality. And so I appreciate that about icbt, that it acknowledges that there's this line of thinking. The line of thinking is flawed. But I think when we tell people these thoughts are just random, you know, everyone has these thoughts. They came out of nowhere. I think people end up feeling a lot of shame because they're like, yeah, but I actually, like, these dots are connected. And that's why this makes sense for me. And we really want to expose that. That line of thinking. And so people can see actually, you know, A doesn't equal B the way that you're assuming it does. So anytime I work with someone who will say, yeah, I get it, I get it makes sense, but I still feel that. That pull to me that says, okay, something is still hooking them. Something is still. There is still some type of inferential confusion there that is still. You know, they're still equating A and B in some way. And so really making. Really digging deep and understanding what that is is one thing. And then the Other is people practicing, making the choice to stay grounded in reality. And that is a practice.
- [23:30]
Christina Orlova
Yeah. I mean, would you say that for that practice? Is it like erp, you go and you face the thing that's bothering you? Or how would ICBT approach that?
- [23:44]
Katherine Goldhouse
Yeah, great question. So with erp, the point is to expose yourself to the thing that is bothering you, to feel all the anxious feelings and then resist doing your normal compulsion. In icbt, we say, no, no, no. The. You want to approach the thing that has historically been triggering for you and practice staying grounded in reality. The point isn't to induce anxiety. Anxiety the way that it is with. With erp. The point is to be able to stop avoiding, to stop going into your imagination, to stop doing your compulsion, whatever it is, because you have not left reality.
- [24:35]
Christina Orlova
Got it. So if I'm, let's say, having an issue with a stove, then really it's for me to say, okay, let me re. Approach the stove again, but not where I'm going to face some like, you know, uncertainty around if it's on or not, but more where I'm going to maybe almost preemptively say, okay, my job is to, when I come here, really use my eyesight, really use my common sense, really stay anchored in that. And then, okay, like, look at the stove, take note of the fact that it's off. I see that it's off. I trust what my eyes are seeing. I trust my eyes. Like, I trusted it this morning when I put my makeup on, let's say. So it's not like my eyesight suddenly changed from morning to now. So what I'm seeing is what I'm seeing and that's it. And moving and kind of the story ends. So, yeah, I know sometimes people, and this will be kind of my last question, but sometimes, sometimes people talk about, well, isn't that kind of like reassurance or, you know, giving yourself this false sense of, I guess, safety? I'm sure you've heard some of these things, right? So what would you say to that?
- [25:47]
Katherine Goldhouse
Yeah, so the, the take on ICBT for reassurance is sort of like, well, what's wrong with reassurance? We all seek reassurance in life. I mean, I know that I will. Anytime I go to a party or I'm around a big group of people, I'll ask my husband, did I say anything weird? And he'll say no, and I'll move on. Right. Whereas if he said, maybe, maybe not, I'd completely flip out. And it would. It would not be Helpful for me. So we all do this. We all kind of turn to others for a reality check. Right. And reality sensing is essentially just getting a reality check. And sometimes we turn to others for reality checks. Sometimes we check in with ourselves or a reality check and that. So ICBT isn't like, categorically opposed to reassurance seeking the way that ERP is. Of course, if you seek reassurance, you get it, and then you seek it again and seek it again. You know, that's problematic. But because you're just continuing to distrust, you're still in your imagination, the goal of seeking reassurance is to come back to reality. And if you are seeking reassurance and you're just staying in your imagination, well, that's problematic. That's not. That's not helping you. But reality checks are fine.
- [27:16]
Christina Orlova
Yeah. And I love that you kind of simplified that a little bit for folks who are listening, because. Yeah. I mean, reassurance in itself, it's not like it's a bad thing. But like you said, if. If I. I'm just checking in on something, I get some information, I actually take it and I move on. Great. That's what we typically do anyway. But if I'm going at it again and again and again, well, we just. We're doing something different now. We're not even doing kind of what we typically would do anyway. So we're. We're entering that. That obsessional doubt process again and that complete, deep distrust in yourself and, you know, the future or, you know, really knowing, like, okay, maybe like, I don't have information about the future because I'm not psy. That or clairvoyant. So, like, let me stay with today and what I know now, and I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
- [28:04]
Katherine Goldhouse
Yeah, right.
- [28:05]
Christina Orlova
Easier, of course, said than done, I think, for most of us. Yeah.
- [28:10]
Katherine Goldhouse
About the future. Yeah, sure. But that's something that's. That's interesting. ICBT isn't supposed to be used for Generalized Anxiety Disorder. And so that's an interesting thing about ICBT is that it conceptualizes OCD and Generalized Anxiety Disorder as fundamentally different. Whereas in erp, you'll hear ERP therapists say Generalized Anxiety Disorder is OCD light. Like, I'm sure people have heard that in ICBT we say, no, these two things are fundamentally different. If it's about the future, then it's most likely Generalized Anxiety Disorder. And, yeah, you do have to accept the uncertainty about the future. Right. So telling someone to check in or tune into their senses about the future, like, just doesn't make any sense. Right. And so that's when ERP or ACT would be really helpful. Um, but with icbt because it brings you back to reality and because OCD is a disorder of, of doubt and the imagination. That's, that's why I. CBT is so specific for OCD or any other disorder that leads to inferential confusion.
- [29:36]
Christina Orlova
Well, and I think part of what I hear too is that, you know, in ocd, because you can have some kind of obsessional doubts about what might happen down the line and it is still also based on then you not trusting yourself that for example, like you are sound of mind and you like to go to work or you, you know, maintain friendships or family or whatever. Like in so many areas of your life, you're operating just fine. But yet here in, you know, whatever the, the pocket where there's that insecurity, again, you're looking at that as, oh, but what if then, you know, something does happen and you know, I, I have not done enough precautions or I didn't do enough, I don't know, whatever it is, and then, or I'm not applying ICBT the right way, or I don't know, or I don't even really know reality. And so it's like we still start to question fundamental things about just how life works, how we work.
- [30:36]
Katherine Goldhouse
Right? Like with, with Generalized Anxiety disorder, it's genuine uncertainty in the sense that like, you don't have the information because it hasn't been released yet. Right? So for example, you don't know which colleges you're going to get into and you're freaking out and imagining not getting into any and just being really scared. And you know, you do have to learn to accept the uncertainty of where you're going to end up going to college. Right? That is true. Missing information with ocd, it's much more imaginary. It's much more. Yeah, but this could be hypothetically true. It's when reality is saying one thing and you're disregarding that and going into the what ifs. So I don't feel any desire for, to be sexually involved with children. But what if I'm in denial? Or what if I thought that little girl was cute and that means something. It's this disregarding of reality in favor of the imagination that makes ocd ocd. Whereas generalized anxiety disorder, we don't see that People can catastrophize and imagine the worst case scenario and that sort of involves the imagination, but they're not necessarily disregarding reality.
- [31:59]
Christina Orlova
Yeah, they're not like categorically confused about reality. Like they, they, they can, they can be pretty, they're pretty anchored and they, they know that like fact from fiction.
- [32:07]
Katherine Goldhouse
Right.
- [32:07]
Christina Orlova
If you will. But in ocd, yeah, it gets so kind of. It's like a scent, like a storm that just kind of sweeps you off your feet and, and you don't even know that it happened. And you're just in it.
- [32:19]
Katherine Goldhouse
Right.
- [32:19]
Christina Orlova
And you think you're still, you know, on the ground, but you're not ready.
- [32:24]
Katherine Goldhouse
Something too that's worth, worth saying about reality sensing is your sense is picking up that there is not a problem. Is reality sensing too. Right. So we don't just lean on our senses to tell us if there are problems. We lean on them to tell us that there aren't problems. And so that's what we do all day long when we, when we exist in the world. Our senses are telling us everything is fine. And so just sometimes people will think, well, if an alarm is not sounding, that must mean I'm missing the alarm. No, if an alarm is not sounding, that's your senses telling you there's no cause for alarm. It's like looking out the window in July and seeing, saying there's. I don't see any snow. My eyes must not be working. No, your eyes are correctly telling you there's no snow because it's July. And you. So you can trust your senses and your comments sense so that. I think that can be a real trap for people. Is that like the lack of information?
- [33:31]
Christina Orlova
Right.
- [33:31]
Katherine Goldhouse
The default with OCD is I'm missing something when really. No, your senses are telling you everything's fine. Right. And that's how, that's how you exist normally with everything else.
- [33:45]
Christina Orlova
Yeah. Oc. Such an interesting kind of mental little. I'm gonna just swear a little bit, but say fuckery because it really is a little bit of that.
- [33:55]
Katherine Goldhouse
Yeah. Very, very wily.
- [33:58]
Christina Orlova
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. And of course, if people would like to find you, how can they find you?
- [34:04]
Katherine Goldhouse
Yeah. So my website is katherinegoldhouse.com and you can find me on Instagram @ICBT therapist,
- [34:11]
Christina Orlova
thanks for being on the show.
- [34:13]
Katherine Goldhouse
Thanks so much.
- [34:17]
Christina Orlova
Thanks for listening to the OCD Whisperer podcast. Remember, freedom from OCD is a journey and you're not alone. Visit www.coraresults.com to explore self help masterclasses like Sneaky Rituals with Jenna Overbaugh or ICBT Masterclass with Christina Inabe. Don't forget to grab your OCD CBT Journal Tracker and planner while you're there. If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe, share and leave a five star review to help others find the podcast. Together we can make a difference. Keep going and I'll see you in the next episode. Need a moment to breathe with Podbean's ambient relaxation? Enjoy ocean waves, calming rain, and peaceful nature sounds any, anytime, anywhere. Whether you're working, studying, meditating, or winding down, your perfect calm is just one tap away. Download the Podbean app today on Google Play in the Apple App Store. Relax with Podbean P O D B E A N.