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A
Episode number 924, the Five Levels of Leadership.
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You're listening to the official BI podcast with BI founder and chief visionary officer, Dr. Ivan Meisner. Stay tuned for networking and referral marketing tips from the man who's been called the father of modern networking, along with suggestions and insights into getting the most from your membership in the world's largest networking organization, bni.
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A
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the official BNI Podcast. I'm Priscilla Rice and I'm coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California. And I'm joined on the phone today by Tim Roberts, who's standing in today as a guest host for Dr. Meisner and will be joining us from time to time. Hello, Tim. Welcome to the podcast.
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B
Hello, Priscilla. Thank you for having me back. I'm excited for today actually. Cause we are actually set up to have an interesting conversation. So instead of me just talking to myself, we have Tim Cook with us. Great. Tim Cook is the past National Director for the United King. That's how I, I've known Tim now for, I don't know, 13 years, I guess roughly, maybe, maybe even longer than that. Now 15 plus years could be. I don't remember the exact date, but it's probably around that time. And I had always known you as the National Director of the United Kingdom. Got to know you when I was Executive Director, got to spend a lot more time with you when I served as National Director for the US and now Tim is the Senior Director of Product Management, or BNI Global, which is an important role. And you've had multiple experiences and professions or roles within this organization that have required skill sets around leadership. And I know that today that's what you want to talk about is John Maxwell's five levels of leadership and how that ties into BNI and how we can use them.
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Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Tim. And yeah, it's been a long time we've known each other. And as you said, I've had a lot of roles in bni and throughout that I've had to learn a lot about leadership because BNI is a great leadership organization. If you are new in business or in your career and you want to learn how to develop as a leader, you're going to learn so much from bni. And so I wanted to talk today a little bit about BNI, about John Maxwell's five levels of leadership and how you can apply BNI's core values to help yourself move through the different levels of leadership that, that John talks about in the book.
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B
That sounds like an interesting. I don't know that I've. I've read a lot of John Maxwell's books, but it's going to be a refresher for me as well on his five different levels. So I'm going to let you start diving into that. I do agree with you that I think BNI is the ultimate leadership organization on all levels. Right. It's leaders of leaders and presents all kinds of challenges. And I think a lot of people fear taking on leadership roles, maybe even in the organization because of that. So I'm interested in your take on how these levels can help people get more involved, learn those skill sets and grow from it.
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C
Sure. Well, probably best if we kick off, then I remind people or tell them for the first time what the five levels of leadership according to John Maxwell are. So the first is what he calls a positional leader, and that's where you're a leader just because of your title. So you get given a job and that makes you a leader, but only at a positional level. The second level is what's called permission based. And so that's where you're leading people based on relationships that you've built and the people looking up to you and trust you a little bit because they know you a little bit, perhaps worked with you and got some sort of relationship with you. The third level is what's called the production level, and that's where people start to follow you because they know that you deliver results and they want to be with. Some people like to be with winners, so they want to follow you as a leader because they know you're going to deliver those results. The fourth level is when it starts getting really exciting and really interesting is the people development role. And that's where you're sort of a leader who's helping others to reproduce results. It's not just about the results that you personally are delivering, but you're helping others to reproduce those results and helping them with their leadership. And then the fifth level is a level which very few reach, but it's something to aspire to. And that's the pinnacle leadership and where you're kind of respected as an absolute leader across all of these things that we've talked about and your ongoing accomplishments. And so you can move up and down these levels depending on different parts of your life, different parts of your career, and depending how experienced you are. So it's not like you are this type of leader the whole time, but you could be at any point at this level, at any point during your career, depending on the Role, I would.
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B
Imagine, also depending on each individual situation. Right. So you might be at one level in a B and I chapter, at a different level within your own personal organization or business. Different level. And maybe another organization you're involved in and so forth.
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C
Yeah, absolutely. You know, you think about, you know, your. If I think about my BNI career, at some point when I was a national director, I'd probably reached a certain level of leadership. And then I go and I change job and I start right back at the bottom. I'm just a positional leader because I'm new in that nobody knows what I can do or I've got to earn the rights and the trust from people again. But I compare that to, you know, my running club, where I've earned the right to say to be well known and well respected, and I'd consider myself at a higher level there just because that's a different part of my life. So. Absolutely, you can be in different things depending on different areas of your life.
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B
So how do you see these levels tying in with BNI core values and somebody's membership?
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C
Yeah, that, that. So I, I guess, you know, in bni, there's lots of leadership positions where you can get a title. You know, whether it's a chapter level, you could be a president, a vice president. We have lots of roles where there's leadership opportunities. But the first two core values I think you have to show to even get to that level of leadership at any level of BNI are the two core values of positive attitude and lifelong learning. You've got to. You know, we talk a lot about attitude in BNI and how that makes a huge difference. If you have a really positive attitude, people notice it and they want to be around you, and you're likely to be asked to be part of a leadership team and lifelong learning, you know, you've got to have that desire to want to improve and learn and take opportunities when they come up. So I think those two things help you get to sort of from the positional level and starts moving you into the opportunity to move higher up.
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B
Yeah, I think the classic saying from Dr. Meisner that we all repeat, you know, we're recording this in, in July. We're. We're at the beginning of our leadership training season is culture, each strategy for breakfast. Right. So that speaks to that first one, the positive attitude and how much of an impact I think people lose sight on that they can have as a leader in the chapter just by displaying their own excitement to be there. Right. Their own excitement about the future. So many leaders we see, we'll go in and they just start hammering what's going wrong and then wonder why they're just getting more of that.
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C
Absolutely. People buy into passion and excitement. You know, you can get a lot of people moving in the same direction if you show that level of excitement.
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Yeah, 100%. And then lifelong learning. Speaking of that, I think this is one of the least utilized resources of belonging to an organization like BNI is just the access to information and experience and learning opportunities. You know, people take leadership team roles over the years. We're running into it now and I'm sure you'll remember these days where it was like, well, you know, I was president five years ago, do I have to take training again? It's like, yeah, you do. And the importance of it. So many of them just want to fight that. You know, I did that one time or, you know, I took MSP one time, so I'm good. I think the ones who are the best are the ones who are always seeking to learn new things, new approaches. You even be refreshed on, you know, maybe, yeah, maybe you heard it before. But taking that training again can just strengthen the resolve and make you that much more effective.
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C
Yeah, absolutely. So I guess once you're in the position, you know, the second, the second tier of it was the permissioned base, which is the relationship based one. So the obvious thing there is the core value you want to focus on to move to that level is on building relationships. So you've got to earn the trust of those you work with, build relationships with them, get to know them, support them. And if you do that, then again, if you're supporting others, they'll want to follow your lead. That's saying if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together. And I think that applies in leadership. You've got to build those relationships and you'll pull other people along with you.
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Yeah, I mean that's the foundation. Right. Of our entire organization. So then where do you think it fits in with leadership? Around level three though. The, the production level.
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C
Yeah, so. So production, as I said, that's about being results based. And to get results in bni, firstly, I think you've got to follow, follow the system. And so I would see this is about being traditions and innovation, you following the system. As a leader, you sometimes put your own flare on things. It's what makes BNI chapters great. They're not all the same, but the best ones is where the leaders follow the system and add a little bit of flair on top of it. But you also have a high level of accountability. The best chapters, the best leaders hold people accountable and that's what gets results. When chapters have no accountability and leaders don't hold their members accountable, it just becomes a fun meetup, coffee club or something. So good leaders at the production level have high accountability as well.
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B
A hundred percent. We talk about perception is reality. So it's hard to challenge people to do more if you're not. If they don't perceive that you're giving the same effort if you're producing the same results. Right. So you know you want your chapter is you're taking a leadership role and you want your chapter to do more one to ones. Are you actively out there scheduling them and doing the same thing?
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C
Yeah, absolutely.
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B
The interesting one and I think I know where you're going but I want to get your take on it. I don't think a lot of people think about as an opportunity in BNI is level four that people development.
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C
Yeah. So so I put the next the final two core values of recognition and give us gain in there. And the way I look at it is recognition you need. If you get good at recognizing others achievements and providing recognition to them, it encourages them to repeat those achievements and encourages them to develop. You know, people development is about lifting others up and you know, recognition absolutely drives that. And if you get good at identifying opportunities to recognize others achievements no matter how big or small, that can really help them to develop on their journey. But I'd also include givers game here and because the way I see that is that as a leader if you can give everything you have back to the people that you're working with, you can help them improve. Whether that's your knowledge, your experience and if you focus on just making it your goal to make them better than you, that's what people development leaders are looking to do. So wrap those last two core values in and you're going to be flying at level four.
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Absolutely. We have so many opportunities to help each other outside of tangible results. I think sometimes people in BNI get so tangibly focused around giver's gain. I gave this many referrals. How many am I getting back versus taking that time to help others throughout their journey just based on your experiences, whether that's hey help a new member become better as a member so they're getting more results. Right. To you know, do you know what kind of challenges your members might be facing in their businesses outside of the chapter that Maybe you have gone through or have experience with that you can help them develop and how much more that deepens that relationship and makes you a leader within that group. With or without a title?
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C
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is what kind of what makes BNI such a great leadership organization is not just what BNI as an organization provide, it's what the members are bringing and all their experience and all their knowledge. And if they're prepared to share that, you know, we're going to help develop so many more people to become better in business in general.
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B
Do you think there's ever a way. I'm going completely off topic right now. I'm going to catch you off guard a little bit. But I've always wondered if there's a way to integrate that more help that be integrated more into somebody's BNI experience. How would you recommend people do that or gain access to that? Because I always talk about there's so much intrinsic value in a BNI membership outside of the tangible results that I think often are not tapped into. And partly because, you know, a weekly B and I agenda is designed the way it is because it's only an hour and a half and everything else. So how would you recommend people on both sides open up to that opportunity, both to give to others on their experience that maybe they have, but also be open to asking others for help or access to the experience that they have?
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C
Yes, I mean, so the first one is a really basic thing I would say. And you know, we teach every member when they're doing a one to one about the gains profile and, and sometimes people think that's just a, just a basic exercise and it's a tick box. We do it, we read each other's gains profiles and then we move on and talk about weather or the sport or whatever. Right, but the whole point of the gains profile is to get inside and understand what the people in your network are bringing. Not just referrals, not just the business they can bring to the table, but what, what's their experience, what's their networks, what have they done in their life that you could learn from? And if you fully commit to sharing things in your gains profile and get the same back from the people you're having one to ones with, you can build the relationships and really work out what are the things you can learn from others to help build your own knowledge.
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How old were you when you first got involved in BNI?
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Oh, 19.
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19. Yeah. So you were younger than me. I was 20. So I asked because I knew it was young. And I would imagine just going to wrap this up that you did like I did. It took me a year. I didn't do this right out of the gate. I kind of had to learn the hard way, but to realize how much I could learn from, because most of my fellow members when I was in a chapter were 20, 30 years older than me and had gone through all the things that I was about to go through and helped me avoid a lot of those challenges or to anticipate a lot of them, so you could, you know, react accordingly. And so just being open and vulnerable enough to ask those questions and to ask for help and to learn from each other, I think could really transcend people's experiences. It did for me, and I would imagine it must have done the same for you.
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C
I was just going to say you did better than me taking only a year to work that out, Tim. It took me a lot, a lot longer to work out that actually opening up, being vulnerable and accepting people know more than you is a good thing. You don't have to know everything yourself.
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Yeah, well, I mean, people who know me know my story, that I really wanted to quit my first year, but I was. You know, my father bought the franchise, so I couldn't. So it forced me to be vulnerable and learn those things. It was not. It was not some big goal. Aha moment. It was kind of forced on me. I was very lucky in that sense that it was forced on me. But. But yes, listen, I think we could talk for days and days and days on this because it's such an important subject and really timely and inappropriate, because, again, BNI is the leadership organization, if you open yourself up to it, and I hope and this helps others do that. So thank you.
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C
Cool. No, thank you. Appreciate having the time to share with you and appreciate being on here.
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All right, Tim, thank you again. And, Priscilla, we'll go back to you.
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Okay, great. Thank you both to the TIMSS for the wonderful information. This podcast is sponsored by MeisnerAudioPrograms.com these audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material that's available to you@meisneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN5O for 50% off of everything. All of the proceeds go to the B and I Foundation. Thanks so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of the official B and I Podcast.