← The Pediatrician Next Door - Simple Advice on Parenting and Family Health
The Pediatrician Next Door - Simple Advice on Parenting and Family Health
Ep. 130: What Grieving Parents Wish You Knew: How to Help a Friend Through Loss of a Child—and Cherish Your Own Parenting Journey
00:30:55
Loading summary
Transcript32 lines
- [00:01]
Strayer University Announcer
The Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu Jack Welchmba to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and has many campuses including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.
- [00:29]
TJ Watt
I'm NFL linebacker TJ Watt and this is my personal best. YPB by Abercrombie is the activewear I'm always wearing. That's why I reached out to co design their latest drop. I worked with designers to create high performance activewear that holds up to my toughest workouts. Shop YPB by Abercrombie in store, online and in the app because your personal best is greater than any.
- [00:57]
Amazon Prime Announcer
Foreign.
- [01:01]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
I'm Dr. Wendy Hunter and I'm so glad you're here today because this episode is one of the most powerful conversations I've ever had. If you've ever wondered how to support a grieving parent or how to find light in the darkest moments of your life, this episode is going to stay with you. My guest's story is deeply personal, but the lessons he shares are universal for anyone who's ever loved a child, supported a friend through a loss, or faced the unexpected. In this episode I speak with Hans Kohlberg, whose 10 month old daughter Aviva died suddenly with no clear explanation. He opens up about the raw and unpredictable process of grief, what it feels like to wake up in this new reality, how his pain evolved, and why grief isn't something to get over, but something you live with. You're going to want to hear this. We talk about how friends and loved ones can show up for grieving parents, not with fixes or platitudes, but with presence and compassion. Hans shares how over time he found moments of gratitude. Again. He's going to talk to us about creativity, like his writing, and how even building a new company helped him to navigate the darkness. This conversation is about loss, but it's also about resilience and presence, and how this parent turned difficulty into a mission to help other people. Hans showed me what it means to parent through pain, how he stayed connected to his child who is no longer physically here. And he shares how to support parents on their hardest days, whether they're our closest friends or just someone in our community. I'm Dr. Wendy Hunter and I'm the pediatrician next Door. I'm that doctor friend you call for practical advice about your kid's health. I mix the science of medicine with the reality of parenting. When a child dies, the world shifts. Time splits into before and after. And for grieving parents, that after can feel like a place that no one else understands. In my conversation with Hans Kohlberg, you'll hear how his grief isn't something that sits on the sidelines of his life. It intertwines with how he shows up as a father, a friend, and a human being. In this first part of our conversation, he. He shares what the early months of grief looked like and what he wishes everyone knew about how to help someone who's lost a child. Here's where his story begins.
- [03:53]
Hans Kohlberg
My wife and I, we lost our daughter Aviva in November 2020. And it's been the most excruciating pain that any parent can ever imagine. It was unexpected. It happened when she was ten and a half months old, and. And we embraced the grieving process tremendously. So took time off work, took time out of our lives for about a year to really embrace that grieving process, which we're fortunate to do. But in that process, there's a lot of self healing, a lot of reading, a lot of art work, a lot of support groups as well. But the thing that surprised me the most was really how society in general really know how to respond to that loss. And to this day, I still have some of my best friends that I had five years ago that have not even reached out to me once, not a text message, not a phone call, and have just completely disappeared. And what I've realized is that, you know, people just don't know how to talk about loss. They don't know necessarily how to comfort someone who's bereaved and who's going through a tremendous loss, like losing a child, which, from firsthand experience, I can say there's no loss like that. And that's been the biggest thing that's been a surprise. And I wish we had more support, more community, and even more people to even talk about it with, because even to this day, some people have a very difficult time mentioning her name. And for me, that's actually the opposite. I try to talk about her any chance I get because she's still my. My daughter, and she's still someone that I want the best for.
- [05:37]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
What is your, I guess, practical advice to a parent who has a friend who's lost a child?
- [05:44]
Hans Kohlberg
Yeah, so it's very simple. Three words just show up. That's Saying a lot in a very few words because you know, there's no right thing that you can say, there's no right thing that you can do. There's really nothing that's going to help them through that pain. But what will hurt, what will be counterproductive is that if you as a friend completely disappear or don't check in, or don't message or don't show up with food, it's going to be pain upon pain, if you will. And I know that sounds minor, but some of the best interactions that we had was when we had a friend that just literally sat there for an hour and just listened to me talk and didn't say anything, didn't have to say anything and just, you know, held my presence and held gave me space to do that. Another instance, my brother in law, I remember he absolutely couldn't say anything. He really. We had a whole family gathering and for about three hours he didn't know what to say. He didn't bring up Aviva at all. But at the end of that encounter he just embraced me and my wife and gave us a really great big hug for about five minutes and tears were flowing from his side, from my side. And I'm starting to cry just even thinking about that. But it was so meaningful because even though he didn't know what to say, he could actually share his empathy by allowing himself to feel in a very small way what we were going through. And so I would say, you know, empathy, a lot of times we confuse it as a society, we think we have to place ourselves in their shoes. And one of the things that people say is I can't even imagine for me, that's almost the most hurtful thing to say because you're actually saying you can't imagine even in your wildest dreams something happening that to yourself or your child. But here I am, I'm living through it and this is my reality. Empathy is actually bringing yourself together and trying to imagine. So I can only imagine as complete. 180 from I can't even imagine so small. Things like that are things that I think society can in general do a better job of.
- [08:13]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
I've also heard you say that grief follows you everywhere you turn. Are there moments where you forget or life is normal and then you remember what's happened? Is it unpredictable?
- [08:27]
Hans Kohlberg
You know, one of the things about grief is that it certainly hits you at different stages, different times. We recently had some of our friends here in San Diego that lost their three year old and comforting them and making sure that Their well supported has certainly brought back a lot of emotions on our side. And of course we've tried to be as empathetic as possible. But one of the things that we say about grief is there's no right way to grieve and everyone experiences their own unique experience. But there is a wrong way, which is not grieving at all. We've been part of many different grieving groups and those that we found that struggle the most are the ones that try to kind of bury it and lock it away and put it in a closet and don't talk about it, don't think about it. And oftentimes innately that actually comes out through negative interactions, negative consequences later on down the road. And so as I've gone through the grieving journey, it certainly is a rollercoaster. It certainly comes, ebbs and flows in different times. But by grief following me, it's a part of my story, it's part of my who I am. And it is intricately intertwined with my entire being of how I want to live as a person, how I want to be as a dad, and what I want to do for the rest of my life. There's small things that remind me of Aviva, butterflies and dolphins. I like to surf a lot and see the dolphins. And I think of her. But in terms of forgetting, there's never a day that goes by that I don't think about her. Certainly there's moments that go by and I can be part of the moment. One of the difficult things about grief is holding both that pain and joy in the same context, filling both of those emotions at the same time, which is, I would say, another difficult thing to have to learn over time.
- [10:33]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
This is a question that comes up for me a lot and maybe will help friends of yours. How do you answer the question how many kids do you have? Or how do we ask that if we don't know how many kids someone has?
- [10:49]
Hans Kohlberg
I'm so glad that you asked that, Dr. Hunter, because this is a question that every bereaved parent should struggles with. Truthfully, honestly, talking to hundreds of bereaved parents, they don't know what the right answer is. And you really have to make a determination for yourself. And that usually consists of something along the lines of how comfortable you feel about talking about your loved one, how comfortable do you know that person that you're talking to? If it's a complete stranger, maybe I'll say 4. But in most cases I'll always say 5. And the reason for that is, you know, if My four kids are there and they can see all four and they're like, well, where's the fifth one? It actually gives me a chance to talk about her. I know bereaved parents have different perceptions on this, but I actually do like talking about my daughter and hearing her name and sharing her story because it's still, as I said, still a very big part of my life. Even when I go to a coffee shop, instead of putting my name down for the order, I put Aviva's name down. So they call out Aviva and I get to hear her name. You know, just a small thing like that. It helps me through grief even to this day, almost five years later. And so I always say the full number of kids. But I know it's a very personal decision for every bereaved parent, you know, to have to, to have to grapple with, unfortunately.
- [12:17]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
Is it something that warrants that we all know, to ask, do you have kids? Maybe instead of saying, how many kids do you have? Do you think there's a difference in that language to give you the opportunity?
- [12:31]
Hans Kohlberg
Absolutely is. And you know, it's not just about bereaved parents. As parents, you know, that want to have kids, that can't have kids, that are struggling through pregnancy or have had miscarriages, you know, you name it, there's the grief goes, goes far and beyond, just breed parents. And I think, do you have kids? Is definitely can. Even that question in and of itself can actually be very sensitive for many people, but it is almost a better way to put it than how many kids do you have? Because that kind of puts someone in the corner. But yeah, it's always a sensitive topic regardless, especially if they're childbearing age.
- [13:10]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
That simple question, how many kids do you have? Can feel like a minefield for a grieving parent because there's no easy answer that honors the living and the lost. And it's not just the questions that get complicated. It's the silence too. You know, after a tragedy, friends and family show up right away with cards, flowers and casseroles. But then time passes and, and so might the check ins. I asked Hans what support really looks like in the weeks, months, and even years after a loss, and what grieving parents actually need from the people who love them. I asked him, as a bereaved parent, do you need and want support and in what form?
- [13:58]
Hans Kohlberg
Absolutely. For me, the answer is absolutely yes. All the cards, the flowers, the meals, everything else. The outpouring of love certainly is very much appreciative. You know, I still remember those that are that did random acts of kindness for us in those early days and months. But there's a big difference between the friends that actually did that and the ones that actually continue to check in. And not every month or every year is maybe on birthdays and anniversaries, on big dates for us, or just random text messages saying, hey, I'm thinking about you. That means a lot.
- [14:38]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
Hearing how much those simple gestures of support have meant to Hans is a powerful reminder that even your smallest act of kindness can ripple for years after a loss like this. As time went on, Hans and his family had to figure out how they could keep moving forward, not by forgetting, but by honoring Aviva's memory. And one of the ways he did that was through creative expression. In fact, one of his favorite memories with Aviva was this moment at the zoo where he watched her just light up as she stared at their orangutans. That moment inspired him to write a children's book and it's called Baby Aviva Orangutan Diva. It's a great joyful story about courage and inner strength. After the break, I'm going to share more about how Hans and his family learned to grieve and grow and what all of us parents, friends and loved ones can learn from his journey. Also going to share some grief resources at the end of the episode that may help anyone walking this path.
- [15:53]
Strayer University Announcer
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [16:18]
Amazon Prime Announcer
Prime delivery is fast.
- [16:20]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
How fast are we talking?
- [16:22]
Amazon Prime Announcer
We're talking puzzle toys and lick pad delivered so fast you can get this puppy under control fast. We're talking chew toys at your door without really waiting fast. Keypads, cooling mat, peg hammer Fast and fast and there's training. T R E A T S faster than you can see. Sit fast and now we can all relax and order these matching hoodies to get cozy and cute. Fast fast Free delivery It's on Prime Foreign.
- [16:51]
TJ Watt
Project saving is at the top of your list. That's why when you shop today you can buy one get one free. Select Valspar and HGTV Home by Sherwin Williams one Coat Coverage Interior paints via rebate shop these deals in Store or online today at Lowe's. We help you save. Selection varies by location while supplies last. Discount taken at time of purchase. See Sales Associate for details. Offer valid 821 through 9 3.
- [17:23]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
Hans honored his daughter's memory through creativity and storytelling. But what struck me most in this second half of our conversation is how the depth of his grief has actually expanded his capacity for joy and for gratitude. He shared with me how living through loss has made him a more present parent, a more intentional friend, and how even in his hardest moments, he's found ways to reconnect with what matters most. So if you've ever felt overwhelmed by the daily chaos of parenting, his perspective might just change the way you see those ordinary moments. He starts by sharing where he is now and how he got there.
- [18:04]
Hans Kohlberg
We wake up every day with a whole renewed sense of purpose and renewed sense of feeling of being lucky to be their parents and to have them there through all the ups and downs and the pains. One of the things about parenting in general is that there's a lot of challenges, a lot of things that you go through, the sleepless nights and the temper tantrums and everything else. But for me, I look at those, I sit back and I actually reflect on those experiences, the very tough moments, as something that we're actually lucky to even experience. It's not something to get angry about, not something to, you know, to get hung up on about because we actually do have that opportunity to change that dirty diaper or deal with that temper tantrum, which is a blessing in and of itself. And so it's a brand new perspective through a bereaved parents lens. As I was going through therapy, it was something that I learned for a number of years was gratitude. And people kept talking about the impact of it and what it really means, but I never really understood what the purpose was because it wasn't until I started writing down three things that I'm thankful for every single night in my journal before I go to sleep that I intentionally put thought to paper and said, what is it that I'm thinking about? Because we as humans are naturally wired to think about the things that can go wrong. The fearful things, the saber toothed tiger in the woods when you're hunting. But in the back of our mind, there's a lot of these things that we're grateful for. Moving that to our prefrontal cortex and moving that to the front of my mind has changed the perspective of how I approach each and every single day. And that is almost even looking for the things to Be thankful for the older two kids. You know, they knew, and they still talk about Aviva even to this day, and she's still a very big part of our life. We actually just built a tree house named Aviva's Hangout because we always want her to be there with them. And so I think for them, they've certainly learned another layer of empathy. But for us, I remember coming home from the hospital after she passed and holding them tight and just being lucky that we had them. We know that not all parents, a lot of times they lose their only child. And so sometimes I say that we're the most unlucky people in the planet, but sometimes the luckiest people on the planet. So. And it's, it's, you know, interesting dichotomy to think about, but certainly there's. There's rough times as, as any parent goes through. But I'm trying to have that perspective of, hey, you know, we have them, we have this opportunity, we have this moment. And let me just give you a big hug because, you know, I know you're crying and I know you're frustrated, but I'm lucky as a father that I can do that with you.
- [21:12]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
Hearing Hans express how thankful he is for the small, everyday moments feels really precious. But grief and joy don't cancel each other out. Instead, as he explained, they coexist. After he lost Aviva, Hans and his wife welcomed not one, but two more children, their rainbow babies. I asked him what it was like to navigate those pregnancies and how they managed the fear, the hope, and, you know, the anxiety of loving a new baby when their hearts were still really tender. Being a parent and being pregnant is extraordinarily anxiety provoking in any circumstance. But how was that process and what tools did you use when you had a new baby on the way to quell your anxiety?
- [22:02]
Hans Kohlberg
Yeah, you know, I would say the biggest tool of all is faith. To tell you the truth, you know, my wife and I, we put a lot of faith that everything will be all right and everything will go, you know, in a different way than it did with Aviva. But I can tell you for certain, it was such a much more terrifying pregnancy and worry filled pregnancy that my wife and I were just anxious on every single checkup, every single visit. And even up until she was about one year old, we knew that there could always be something that goes wrong. And I think, unfortunately, or fortunately, there's that perspective that we have where we know that tomorrow is not a given and anything can happen the next day. But Just taking it one day at a time. I think another part that goes hand in hand with gratitude is actually being in the moment and just being fully present right then and there, because it's really easy to extrapolate into the future of what can go wrong or look at the past of what did go wrong. But to actually kind of just embrace the now was probably the biggest tool I would say, that we had. Certainly we did all the checkups and did everything, you know, we're supposed to do right, but it was a lot more terrifying than other pregnancies.
- [23:25]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
Welcoming new life after such deep loss is incredibly emotional, and it can bring couples closer. But the truth is, the divorce rate among parents who lose a child is very high. Grief affects everyone differently, of course, and navigating that as a couple has to be one of the hardest challenges. So I asked Hans how they managed to stay connected through pain and what it looked like for them to move forward not as individuals, but together as a family.
- [23:58]
Hans Kohlberg
We knew early on, and reading a lot of literature, we're talking about 30 plus books about grief, we understood that divorce is a very common road that many bereaved couples actually travel. But what we found is that there's that cohort and then there's another cohort where that unfortunate tragedy will actually bring couples together in a stronger way. And we made a commitment to ourselves that we wanted to be on that side. When you talk about why do they go separate ways, one of the biggest reasons is not the event itself, the death, but more so the different ways that people grieve.
- [24:41]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
What really stood out to me in Han's answer was how he and his wife processed grief in really different ways. His wife turned inward, while Hans felt called to action and to create. And one of those actions was writing the children's book. But even with their differences, these parents shared one powerful purpose. Honoring Aviva by helping others. He says that shared mission became their North Star. And ultimately, it's what led him to start a company called Avocado Health, which is a company focused on supporting parents through the emotional rollercoaster of raising kids. I asked him where this idea came.
- [25:24]
Hans Kohlberg
From from a day to day perspective. What I really wanted to do was really was really to help parents. So the very last hour that we had with Aviva, you know, they allowed us to hold her, and I looked down on her and I said, daddy doesn't know what happened, but I'm going to do everything I can to make sure no other parent has to feel that same way. And certainly that's the worst feeling, losing a child. But really that starts with getting answers to their questions. Any parenting question, right? For us, we're still, to this day, still looking for answers for her underlying diagnosis, her cause of death, which no doctors have figured out even after the autopsy. And so it's pain beyond the suffering. So starting with, how do we actually get parents the questions and the answers that they need? I'm not an expert, and there's tons of pediatricians out there, tons of different parent experts out there. What we're doing with Avocado Health is really helping prevent. Bring those answers to parents in a way that is actually accessible and impactful to them in the moment that they need it most. And that's via text message. Because right now, even my own experience, we're going down the Dr. Google rabbit hole. We're going on Instagram and looking on YouTube where there's answers, but oftentimes leading to misinformation. Many times we love to talk to Doctors like yourself, Dr. Wendy, but a lot of times this is inaccessible. And, you know, especially two in the morning or, you know, when, when you, when you can't you get your kid back to sleep or when you're dealing with the temper tantrum. Right. And so for us, bringing that level of guidance just with the, with the perspective that parents have to be their best advocates for their child, you know, everything that we've gone, we went through with Aviva, having to being able to voice our concern, voice our opinions on what, you know, what's going on was essential to even having her live as long as she did at 10 months. And so, yeah, that's at the heart of what we're doing at Avocado Health.
- [27:41]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
After hearing how Avocado Health was born, I wanted to know what Hans would say directly to parents himself, those who are in the thick of it. So I asked him, what words do you have for parents? And here's his answer.
- [27:56]
Hans Kohlberg
Treasure your moments and lead with love. Parenting is hard. Parenting is difficult. It's filled with lots of challenges. You never really understand and appreciate that opportunity that you have until it's taken from you, until you experience the most unimaginable thing that a parent can never have to go through. You don't understand how really lucky you are to again go through those painful moments of waking up at 2am or changing the dirty diapers or whatever it is. That is actually a blessing. It's actually something that we shouldn't take for granted at all.
- [28:40]
Dr. Wendy Hunter
Hans, thank you for sharing Aviva his story and her own. Aviva would be five years old now, and while she's no longer here in the way they imagined, her presence is in everything he and his wife do, from the way they parent to the way they show up for others. Today they have the privilege of raising two rainbow babies, a toddler and an infant, and Aviva remains their North Star. If you or someone you love is grieving the loss of a child, Hans shared a few resources that have been meaningful on his journey. One is the Compassionate Friends, a nationwide support group for families who have experienced child loss, and another is the Child Loss foundation, which provides support and community. He also recommends the book Finding the Sixth Stage of Grief by David Kessler. You can learn more about Hans and his work supporting parents through his company, Avocado Health, and find his children's book Baby Aviva, Orangutan Diva. I'm going to put those links in the show notes and again to Hans. Thank you for showing us that grief and love don't have to be separate things. You can keep Aviva's story alive by sharing this episode with a friend. Thanks. For more from the Pediatrician Next Door, find me on the web at Pediatrician Next Door. If you've got a question about the weird things kids do, send an email to helloediatriciannextdoorpodcast.com for a chance to hear your voice on the show. I'm Dr. Wendy Hunter and I'm the Pediatrician Next Door. This show is produced by Red Rock Music. Make sure to subscribe and leave a review wherever it is you're listening. I'll be back next time with more.