← The Peter Attia Drive
The Peter Attia Drive
#318 ‒ Cycling phenom and Tour de France champion Tadej Pogačar reveals his training strategies, on-bike nutrition, and future aspirations
00:45:44
Tadej Pogačar is a three-time Tour de France champion and one of the most dominant cyclists of his generation. In this episode, he shares insights into his 2020 Tour de France victory, his historic 2024 season winning both the Giro d’Italia and...
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- [00:11]
Peter Attia
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Drive Podcast. I'm your host Peter Attia. This podcast, my website and my weekly newsletter all focus on the goal of translating the science of longevity into something accessible for everyone. Our goal is to provide the best content in health and wellness and we've established a great team of analysts to make this happen. It is extremely important important to me to provide all of this content without relying on paid ads to do this. Our work is made entirely possible by our members and in return we offer exclusive member only content and benefits above and beyond what is available for free. If you want to take your knowledge of this space to the next level, it's our goal to ensure members get back much more than the price of the subscription. If you want to learn more about the benefits of our premium membership, head over to peteratiamd.com subscribe.
- [01:04]
Tadej Pogačar
My guest this week is Today Pogacar, a professional cyclist and three time winner of the Tour de France in 2020, 2021 and most recently 2024. For those who may not know his story today, who today is just 26 years old, has already been compared to the most legendary all round cyclist of all time, Eddy Merckx. He's generally referred to now as the second coming of Mercs whose nickname was the Cannibal for the manner in which he devoured the competition. Today was a very successful junior rider, winning some of the most prominent races prior to his breakthrough year in 2019 when he signed on with the UAE team. He won the Tour of California that year and won three stages of the Vuelta Espana, one of the three Grand Tours, en route to a overall third place finish as well as the young rider title. And then of course in 2020 he was the unexpected winner of the Tour de France. This is something we will discuss in detail in this podcast. Now, since that time Today has basically rewritten the record books. He's done things that people generally have thought frankly impossible in the modern era of cycling, largely because of the specialization of the sport. Today, typically cyclists will focus on one type of race, and yet today has demonstrated an appetite to basically conquer everything he does. That means he's competing not just in Grand Tours, but and shorter stage races, but also some of the most grueling one day races of all time. In fact, there are five such races. He has already won three of them and of course we discuss his aspirations around the others. 2024 was kind of a momentous year. He first won the Giro d'italia and the Tour de France, a double feat that has not been accomplished for nearly 30 years, and he set a record, winning 12 stages across both of these. He is currently the number one ranked cyclist in the world, a record that he's held for about 170 weeks and counting. And he is going to attempt in a week to do something that, again, many people thought would never be possible in the modern era of cycling, which is to complete something known as the Triple Crown, which is winning the Giro, the Tour, which he's already done, and then managing to win the World Championship Road race. I have wanted to interview today for some time, and of course, the opportunity of him racing at the GP at Montreal, just two weeks out from the World Championship, was remarkable and fortuitous. So I was very grateful to have his time. In this conversation, we talk about his remarkable 2020 season, where he took the world by storm and won the Tour de France in one of the most dramatic finishes that race has ever seen. We talk about the highs and lows of his career since that time. We talk about how he trains, how nutrition has evolved on the bike, and why that allows cyclists today to do things that were previously thought impossible. This is a bit of an interesting podcast if you are not a cyclist, because some of the things that he talks about are simply difficult to wrap your mind around. But hopefully my reaction to those things, for example, his power numbers, will give you a sense of the fact that I'm really talking to one of the most fit human beings on the planet at this moment. So without further delay, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Tadi Pogachar.
- [04:34]
Peter Attia
Today. Thank you so much for making time. Obviously, you just raced yesterday, you've got a race tomorrow, and we're two weeks out from the World Championships, so to give us any time is amazing. Thank you.
- [04:44]
Tadej Pogačar
No, thanks for having me.
- [04:46]
Peter Attia
A lot of people listening will know everything about you as I do, or, you know, they're super fans. But there's also probably a number of people listening who might not appreciate the magnitude of what you've accomplished in a very short period of time. I learned about you in 2019 as the most promising young cyclist that was coming up, but I don't think many people, probably myself included, expected what happened in 2020 at the Tour de France. What were your expectations going into the Tour that year?
- [05:10]
Tadej Pogačar
I was not expecting at all to win in 2020. It was Covid year. We had pretty good trainings. Not too many races, so not too much to prove. No, in 2019 was breakthrough year for me. But then 2020 came and it was like A long period doing nothing, just training. We went to the Tour with Fabio Aro and me as two leaders. Yeah, it turns out in the end I was fighting for podium place for second place in the last week. I was really happy with that. And the final time trial came and it all turned the table around and yeah, I won the Tour. It was unbelievable. I think still a lot of people don't believe it happened. So.
- [05:51]
Peter Attia
Yeah, well, obviously people at the time of that final time trial said we haven't seen a race like this since Lend and Lauren Finon in. I think it was 89 when he had that come behind. But what stage in 2020 did you realize I'm going to be on the.
- [06:04]
Tadej Pogačar
Podium, on the stage called Rose? I think I was sure I going to be second because this was the Queen stage and I come Behind Roglic just 15 seconds. Lopez win that stage on High Mountain. So yeah, that was the day I knew that this is it. But I also think Roglic thought that day that he's going to win. So yeah, you never know.
- [06:27]
Peter Attia
Yeah. So going into that last time trial, what was your team telling you in the radio at the time checks or even before the time checks in terms of your delta per Roglic on a kilometer basis?
- [06:37]
Tadej Pogačar
Roglic was starting behind me and yeah, the time checks were like, I think two time checks. On the flat before the final climb, I got the times. I don't know who was leading that time on the flight section. I got that time and how much. I think I was even behind then when the climb came, there were so many people. I did not hear a word on the radio. I just went. We thought I would go and I just went full gas to the top.
- [07:03]
Peter Attia
Did you feel anything different that day? I mean, did it feel like better than some of the other stages or was it simply a matter of. He had deteriorated more than you across.
- [07:12]
Tadej Pogačar
20 days because it was the last hard stage. The next day is just. Sean just rolled through. It's still hard race. But yeah, if everything goes normal, your GC stays the same. Yeah, it was okay. Final time trial. I just need to be relaxed. Second place, white jersey. They were preparing white bike for me for next day for ceremony and it was cool. It was dream.
- [07:34]
Peter Attia
You didn't feel the pressure?
- [07:35]
Tadej Pogačar
I didn't feel nothing. No. We were really chilled out. I knew the parkours really well because I did recon before with Alan Piper and Mikael Bjerg. We did a lot of work on that. And when the day came, yeah, I was Just mad. Everybody was happy around and there was no tension, no stress, nothing. And we just rolled with it. And then it was one of the best days I ever had.
- [07:57]
Peter Attia
Yeah, it's a little hard to believe. Do you remember what your average power was over that time trial?
- [08:01]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, on the flat I had a power meter and a unit. And then on the climb I had nothing because I wanted to have a 6.8kg bike. So as light as possible by regulations. On the flat I went, I think 380 to 390. So nothing crazy on the flat, but I guess I was just going fast enough to be in that range.
- [08:25]
Peter Attia
What was your weight by that point of the Tour? Were you 60 kilos?
- [08:29]
Tadej Pogačar
I think that year in 2020, I was 66 even, I think. Yeah.
- [08:35]
Peter Attia
Really?
- [08:35]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah.
- [08:36]
Peter Attia
What did you weigh this year?
- [08:37]
Tadej Pogačar
I come to the tour with 64 and a half and then 65 and 65 and a half, then jumping from around 65 through all the tour.
- [08:47]
Peter Attia
So 21 is another amazing year. And in 22 and 23 you have great race, but a couple of stages where it goes wrong. In 22, I guess the first stage where it was a struggle was at 16.
- [09:02]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah. Called the Granone. We went Telegraph Galibi down Brianson, almost.
- [09:07]
Peter Attia
To Branson and non stop attacking, visible, attacking Constant, constant, constant where I made my mistake.
- [09:14]
Tadej Pogačar
I mean, yeah, shouldn't follow Roglic immediately there on the Telegraph. Hit that already on Telegraph, I think who was Tich Benu and then Laporte with him on the downhill and they just flew down. And when we start the Galibe, they just go one by one. I had to respond, I think eight.
- [09:35]
Peter Attia
Or nine attacks and you looked very strong.
- [09:38]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, I was. I was really good. But I think, yeah, if you do eight sprints, no takes too much. And then I tried to respond by being stupid. No. And I tried to drop everybody from the wheel on Galibia, but then I knew that Wout Van Aert is also in the front and is checkmate anyway. No. So, yeah, that was just stupid for me.
- [10:01]
Peter Attia
And how much of that? I mean, just from a nutritional standpoint, did you feel depleted? Did you feel like you didn't have enough? Were you short a bottle on that stage or something?
- [10:09]
Tadej Pogačar
I ate enough.
- [10:09]
Peter Attia
But you did. I think the legs.
- [10:12]
Tadej Pogačar
You cannot eat enough when you do so much.
- [10:14]
Peter Attia
Yeah.
- [10:14]
Tadej Pogačar
So much power. You do so much attacking. You cannot take more food than you can. No. So I think we had quite good planned. Nutrition, everything. But if you do too much with your body, you cannot replace that.
- [10:29]
Peter Attia
When you're training, do you try to simulate that extent of attacking and recovering? And obviously you can't replicate that fully in a training session.
- [10:39]
Tadej Pogačar
Since I was junior, even before I knew what's going to be percussed, like then find around my home, similar type, and then just do repetitions of one climb, like how many times it's going to be in the race. And now sometimes I still do the same. I just see, for example, here in Montreal tomorrow is around four minutes climb to five minutes and two short ones. So you just try to do as many as possible repetitions in the trainings as well, and trying to simulate the race.
- [11:12]
Peter Attia
What kind of climb do you like the most? What kind of climb do you like the least in terms of grade and duration?
- [11:17]
Tadej Pogačar
Well, depends on the shape. Also I really like around 20 minute.
- [11:22]
Peter Attia
Climbs, quite steep, 10 to 12% or not that steep.
- [11:26]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, I would say now that because we go really fast, 7% to 8%, it's already a lot of drafting. But then what's more than 9% I think is pretty cool because there's not much draft. So you can do what you want, basically.
- [11:44]
Peter Attia
Do you have many climbs near you that replicate where you can do 20 minutes at 8, 9, 10%?
- [11:50]
Tadej Pogačar
No, not really. Not really, but five to 10 minutes? Yes, 9%, 10% in Slovenia, also just around 10 minutes with steep ones, but 20 minutes, that's quite rare.
- [12:03]
Peter Attia
And then how much does the heat factor into it and how much are you able to replicate that in training?
- [12:08]
Tadej Pogačar
I think heat training became a thing now in cycling a little bit, especially this year. Maybe last two, three years. I mean, we try to overheat the body in the training session or in a home trainer. It is a big factor, especially for me. I felt always that I struggle when it's super hot. But yeah, if you try to train this, you can be better.
- [12:32]
Peter Attia
Yeah, I mean, I guess I could imagine if you're on a trainer at home, it's easy to replicate it. Otherwise you just have to find the environment at the elevation, altitude. This year, 2024, remarkable year for you, winning the Giro so comfortably, winning the Tour quite comfortably, but seemed to be your strongest year. I mean, people said, well, Jonas crashed early in the season. But the truth of it is, Jonas times were pretty remarkable this year. I mean, he seemed to put out very good numbers. So it seemed to be just as much a function of you riding even better this year than Jonas coming in injured as much as he was. Do you feel that that's the case?
- [13:07]
Tadej Pogačar
Jonas had a Big injury this year. I don't know how exactly his recovery went because they kept it quite quiet when he once got on the bike. I think he could start immediately training quite normal now for sure at first, little by little. But I think it affects on three week stage race. It affects that preparation. And yeah, you don't have the capacity to go three weeks. You have the power like 10 minutes, best power output or five minutes, 20 minutes you can do one day. But then maybe your body is not used to go another day, you know. So I think that was the case with Jonas this year. He had a great power, he got great numbers. But then maybe he lacked this three week extent to perform.
- [13:52]
Peter Attia
I feel like every cycling fan just feels that we have this incredible treat where we have both of you as these remarkable cyclists. You're both so young. We're going to have many more years of you guys racing each other. Do you feel you're going to continue to race the Tour for many, many more years? I mean, obviously people are saying, look, you could break every record here. You could break the five Tours, the seven tours. I mean, you could do it all. Is it your intention to keep riding Grand Tours and specifically the Tour de France?
- [14:17]
Tadej Pogačar
Tour de France is the biggest race of cycling. So yeah, to keep being on the top, you need to do Tour de France. Yeah. I think battling between me and Jonas, pushing each other and always the Tour is the test who is better now of that year. And I think I will keep on riding the Tour until once. I don't enjoy this stress anymore. Maybe I hung up the bicycle in garage or somewhere.
- [14:43]
Peter Attia
Something seemed different in you this year. You seemed stronger. What changed in your training between 23 and 24?
- [14:49]
Tadej Pogačar
Well, I didn't change only training on the bike. I also implemented core training. More and more outside of the bike stuff, I got more into the details of nutrition as well. I'm getting older, so yeah, I'm not so obsessed anymore with just going cake on cake or just eating shit now.
- [15:11]
Peter Attia
So wait, does that mean that five years ago you weren't paying much attention to your nutrition and you were kind of eating as much as you wanted?
- [15:18]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, for sure. When you're a kid, you can eat what you want and you don't gain fat. I mean, you don't gain too much because you're evolving, you're growing up. When you're a kid, you can eat what you want.
- [15:31]
Peter Attia
So you're at the age right now because you're going to be 26 in a week.
- [15:35]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah.
- [15:36]
Peter Attia
Do you need to watch your weight in the off season now I mean.
- [15:40]
Tadej Pogačar
My all year looks more or less the same. I never restrict too much or I never say okay, I cannot eat cake or I cannot eat chocolate. But all in measurements and when the time is right. Because if you restrict too much and you don't touch chocolate for a month or for six months, then one time you will break and you will go crazy. And I think that's not good relationship with food. So you need to have balance also with the bad food. Also. Then when comes off season I don't have the cravings, I'm like, okay, now I go vacation. I have nice food, good food, quality food and not crazy amount. So I don't gain so much weight.
- [16:25]
Peter Attia
What's the heaviest you'll be in the off season? 70.
- [16:28]
Tadej Pogačar
No, like 69. Maybe 70 after when you wake up after party or something. When? Yeah, yeah, our like big, big dinner with birthday party or something. No, when you eat just a lot. But that's just also.
- [16:40]
Peter Attia
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [16:40]
Tadej Pogačar
A lot of times just water weight or something. But around six, nine would be maximum. Maximum.
- [16:45]
Peter Attia
Do you have a sense of how many grams of carbohydrate you can drink in an hour when you're training?
- [16:50]
Tadej Pogačar
You mean drink or eat?
- [16:52]
Peter Attia
Both. Total amount of carbohydrate in drink, we.
- [16:55]
Tadej Pogačar
Have either 30 grams or 60 grams in per bottles.
- [16:58]
Peter Attia
Not a strong dilution then?
- [17:00]
Tadej Pogačar
No, I honestly I like 30 grams of grams because then I can eat more. But when it's a hard stage, it's better having 60 grams in a bottle and then you can eat less. I mean still no, because for hard stages you need to get around 120 grams per hour. For easier stages, from 60 to 90 is enough. So basically we aim for that per hour.
- [17:23]
Peter Attia
Was that easy for you to get to or did you have to train your gut to be able to eat that much?
- [17:28]
Tadej Pogačar
At first it seemed like five years ago, 120 grams per hour, that's impossible. But with good food, with good nutrition.
- [17:35]
Peter Attia
What do you like to eat and drink?
- [17:37]
Tadej Pogačar
We have a sponsor, Ennerit, with our nutritionists, he designed really good gels and the drink that's easy on the gut. Since they created this product, I don't have any stomach problems. Five years ago I would always go shit my pants after the stage races or long races. And now even eating 120 grams, no stomach problems.
- [18:01]
Peter Attia
And do you think that's more because you've gotten used to it or do you think it's more because your nutritionist has figured out recipe that works for you guys?
- [18:09]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, I think needs to be good ratio between glucose, fructose and all other stuff in the gels and it needs to be good quality of what's inside. So you get used to it for sure.
- [18:22]
Peter Attia
When you're training right now, I don't mean right now, I mean when you're preparing, say, for the tour. How do you define your energy systems? Do you define them more by heart rate, by power, by how you feel? What are you using?
- [18:34]
Tadej Pogačar
I've been training with heart rate monitor since I'm, I don't know, 12 years old, 10 years old. So I would say I know how my heart rate responds when I'm tired or when I'm good. So, yeah, I could go by heart rate only, but it's always good to compare heart rate to power. But power meters are not so reliable these days, I would say.
- [18:58]
Peter Attia
Really?
- [18:59]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah.
- [18:59]
Peter Attia
Which one do you guys use? Srm.
- [19:01]
Tadej Pogačar
We have a Shimano parameter. Yeah. You always need to be careful with the temperatures of the outside, the calibration, everything, and yeah, sometimes can be off. You need to be careful about this. In my experiences, yeah. The best is to train on your home roads where you can also look the speed, the vam, how fast you're moving.
- [19:22]
Peter Attia
What kind of VAM are you able to reach when you're training on a training?
- [19:27]
Tadej Pogačar
7, 7 and a half percent. If you go all out, I think it's like 1700 to 1800 of them for like 15 minutes.
- [19:37]
Peter Attia
That's just incredible. I know that people listening might not appreciate that. I'm not going to take time to explain what VAM is. If they know what it is, they understand how crazy that is. If they don't, they can look it up. I'm happy when I hit a thousand, by the way. Yeah. Just for comparison.
- [19:50]
Tadej Pogačar
No, but. Yeah, it depends on the gradient. No, but what I was trying to.
- [19:54]
Peter Attia
Say is you're using these other metrics.
- [19:55]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah. You see all these three things, speed, heart rate and power. Then you see how you feel. And in which zone are you really.
- [20:04]
Peter Attia
In and how much of your time are you spending at a low intensity? Whether we call it zone two, whether we just call it aerobic. How much of your total training time would be in that zone and not burning matches.
- [20:19]
Tadej Pogačar
I love riding zone two. Yeah. Around where I live in Monaco, it's really hard to get big time in zone two because there's a lot of climbing and then you have all the downhills.
- [20:29]
Peter Attia
Yeah. You can't maintain power.
- [20:30]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, I try to Hit really high zone 2 on the climbs that are like 20 to 40 minutes long and then you recover downhill. But when I go home to Slovenia or somewhere else or in Spain when we're training in Calpe or somewhere where it's more flat, I really like to stay five hours in zone two. True.
- [20:48]
Peter Attia
Zone two, yeah.
- [20:49]
Tadej Pogačar
And some trainings I would love to do just zone two and going nonstop.
- [20:53]
Peter Attia
What is your heart rate at zone two?
- [20:55]
Tadej Pogačar
Approximately when I'm fatigued it's 140, 145. When I'm a bit more fresh around 150 to 155.
- [21:04]
Peter Attia
And how many watts are you putting out at that heart rate?
- [21:06]
Tadej Pogačar
320 to 340.
- [21:11]
Peter Attia
Again, I know it's just hard for people who are listening to us to understand what that means. 320 to 340 watts for five hours, keeping lactate below 2, keeping heart rate at 140 is really remarkable.
- [21:23]
Tadej Pogačar
That's also another thing. Not in Monaco, on the climbs where I can recover after, you cannot look zone two and say this is your zone two because you did two 10.
- [21:34]
Peter Attia
Minutes test on this power because it's too much. Up, down.
- [21:36]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah. If you're doing five hour ride your zone two after five hours, maybe not be your zone two anymore. You always need to know at what time this zone 2 will not be your zone 2 anymore because on the flat you will not recover. And five hours of riding of 3:20 to 3:40 for me is also next day I'm not riding the bike. So when I go on flat for longer I drop power to 290 to 300.
- [22:05]
Peter Attia
Do you track your heart rate or heart rate variability in the morning? Do those numbers give you any indication of how you're going to train that day or race?
- [22:12]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, I started this in 2020 first I was especially in Covid time lockdown this, me and my girlfriend, we were doing that. But yeah, I did not find it really interesting or helpful. But this year I start using more to track hre heart rate in the night. And yeah, I must say that I quite like it now to track it. But yeah, it's not something that it can be misleading.
- [22:39]
Peter Attia
It can get in your head a little bit and you don't want it to tell you how you're going to train that day.
- [22:42]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, it can be misleading.
- [22:44]
Peter Attia
It's almost better for somebody else to look at it and tell you after.
- [22:47]
Tadej Pogačar
Well, my girlfriend, she had a really good method for a while, especially in races. She don't open in the Morning she open it after the race. So she checked after the race. What was her heart rate variability in the morning? Not in the morning. If it would be really low.
- [23:02]
Peter Attia
Yeah, it doesn't mess with her stress.
- [23:03]
Tadej Pogačar
And then would mess with the race.
- [23:05]
Peter Attia
How much variation? When you do look at your heart rate variability, how much variation do you have between a high day and a low day of HRV?
- [23:13]
Tadej Pogačar
On a really good day I would say my HRE would be, I don't know, 120, 130 maximum. Some days can pick up to 150.
- [23:23]
Peter Attia
Wow.
- [23:24]
Tadej Pogačar
On the lower end would be also, I don't know, 35 could be that.
- [23:28]
Peter Attia
Much of a difference.
- [23:29]
Tadej Pogačar
Could be.
- [23:29]
Peter Attia
But is that from drinking alcohol the night before?
- [23:31]
Maybe.
- [23:32]
Okay.
- [23:33]
Tadej Pogačar
In the races in the Tour for example, Enduro was quite steady around from 80 to 110 was like average.
- [23:43]
Peter Attia
Wow.
- [23:44]
Tadej Pogačar
Every day.
- [23:45]
Peter Attia
That's pretty amazing. And then resting heart rate, do you care at all about that or how much heart rate range do you have? So what's the lowest you're going to be at and then what is your maximum heart rate now versus five years ago?
- [23:55]
Tadej Pogačar
The lowest I hit since I'm tracking I think was 37. My average I would say is like in the night I think 43, 42. But some days I could woke up with 48, 49. If you're sick or really fatigued, maybe even over 50. The max heart rate. Yeah. When I was junior I could hit 213 but was shorter races. And so now for example like in the yesterday 203. So was still pretty high. So I'm pretty happy about it.
- [24:30]
Peter Attia
How often do you guys test VO2 max?
- [24:33]
Tadej Pogačar
It's been a while since I tested the last time. VO2 max. Yeah.
- [24:36]
Peter Attia
Interesting.
- [24:37]
Tadej Pogačar
Probably it's high.
- [24:38]
Peter Attia
Yeah. I'm going to bet it's pretty high. Yeah. Do you do an FTP test out of season? Just as a way to track it like a true 20 minute test through 20 minute tests.
- [24:47]
Tadej Pogačar
Also it's been a while since I've done one. I did this year fatigue test. When you repeat eight minutes of one power. I mean going higher and higher power and then also all out. Normally we do home trainer test in the camp in December. It's long from 1 hour to 1 hour 30. Depends how long you want to test to which zone you want to test. But yeah, normally around one hour 20 for me. Ten minute steps on the home trainer and every five minutes you take lactate from the ear to check for the zones and I like to do it also. At home with my girlfriend one time, I do for her.
- [25:26]
Peter Attia
You test each other?
- [25:27]
Tadej Pogačar
We test each other, yeah.
- [25:28]
Peter Attia
For people listening, your girlfriend is obviously a very competitive professional cyclist as well. If you guys have kids one day, look out.
- [25:36]
Tadej Pogačar
Oh, man. I don't want to put them in cycling though.
- [25:41]
Peter Attia
Well, that would be a good idea actually, because they would probably have a very hard time filling their parents shoes, so they should pick up another sport.
- [25:48]
Tadej Pogačar
They could be better even. Yeah.
- [25:51]
Peter Attia
Okay, changing topics for a second. If we just think about three of the most epic climbs in the Tour de France. Well, for me I would say Ventoux, Alpe d'huez, Galibier. But what would be the most epic climbs? And what I really want to know is how do they compare in difficulty? Assuming you're equally fresh on all days, like same situation. If you have to race up each, pick those three. If I said Von 2, Galibia and Altues.
- [26:13]
Tadej Pogačar
Well, of those three, Galibia is the easiest, then I would say Ventoux second, not Hardue second.
- [26:21]
Peter Attia
And Von 2 would be the hardest.
- [26:23]
Tadej Pogačar
I think is the hardest. Yeah. Also because of the nature, because of.
- [26:26]
Peter Attia
The wind at the top and stuff like that.
- [26:28]
Tadej Pogačar
Wind, heat can be. No, yeah, Arduous. It's hard, but I think it's shorter. And Galibe is.
- [26:36]
Peter Attia
It depends where it is in the stage too. Yeah.
- [26:38]
Tadej Pogačar
Also this from Brian's own side is like dragging up in the valley and then when you turn right, I mean, it's quite high altitude, but it's still quite a regular climb. From the other side you have Telegraph and then small downhill and climbing again. But it's like these are calls from Alps. They're all more or less the same. Galle B Cold. These are almost identical climbs. So you're used to those Alpe d'oeuvres is just mythical. You have way harder climbs than Alpe d'oeuvres for sure.
- [27:07]
Peter Attia
What is the hardest climb, you think, in the modern Tour?
- [27:10]
Tadej Pogačar
For me personally, Cola Loza would be the hardest. I think everybody would agree on this.
- [27:16]
Peter Attia
Well, you had a very difficult day there in 23.
- [27:19]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah.
- [27:19]
Peter Attia
That was what, stage 18, was it the queen stage?
- [27:22]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, it was stage 17, I think, or 16. But yeah, I did it twice and first time, okay, I did good, but then I felt really tired after. It was really exhausting climb. And yeah, last year was we did Loze and then small downhill and to Altiport in what's called this town, Courchevel. Yeah, this was brutal.
- [27:47]
Peter Attia
This is something about you today that is very. It's Very interesting. I've never seen a cyclist who in defeat is so gracious. And it's clear that you're upset, but you demonstrate. I mean, I remember after that stage, you just thanked your team. You just said, thank God I had a great team around me today, or I would have come off the podium. That's remarkable sportsmanship. But how, how are you able to do that? If I put myself in your shoes, I would just be so pissed off. I wouldn't even want to talk to the media. Like, I would just want to be locked in the trailer.
- [28:16]
Tadej Pogačar
You know, it's not individual sport, it's the team sport. And the guy sacrifice everything to be there in the Tour, to help one guy to win the Tour in this day, we could really see how the guys reacted to me when I dropped. They helped me, they support me emotionally, physically, whatever. I really felt like I let them down. And I was feeling just. Yeah, I was devastated, I was upset, angry, but I couldn't change it. So I just went with it. I was feeling down, but, yeah, you cannot change nothing. And then, yeah, when we had dinner with the guys, was already better. And they really helped me through that days.
- [28:58]
Peter Attia
What did you think about after the 23 tour? You'd now come in second twice. And my guess is there were people out there saying, hey, maybe this guy isn't the next Eddy Merckx. I'm sure you don't care about that, whether you're the next Eddie Merckx or not. But how did you think about that and how did it motivate you over the winter, coming into 2024, where you set off on this, again, very aggressive schedule to win huge races going into the Tour.
- [29:24]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, it's frustrating. It was frustrating, Yeah. I was anxious, I was stressed, and I was not feeling great last year after the Tour. But I evaluate what went wrong, what was the mistakes, what I can do better. Yeah, it all went back to the crash, from Le Preparation to the Tour and everything else. It was. It built up everything.
- [29:46]
Peter Attia
And yeah, psychologically, I mean, did you have to get some confidence back? I mean, did you?
- [29:52]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, for sure. I got some confidence back already on stage 20 when I win. Three days after that World Championship was like just a small patch on the wound. I would say third place, great racing, but it didn't feel enough. And then, yeah, winning Lombardy was really amazing. Big for me last year, again, just.
- [30:12]
Peter Attia
For people listening who might not understand that there are these five huge classic races that normally the people who win the Tour de France do not win. Those races and vice versa. This is a totally different sport. It's sort of like, I don't know, the person who wins the marathon winning the 10K. I mean, even though that's not even remotely the right comparison. But yes, you're both on a bike, but it's different. And you've now won three of the five classics.
- [30:38]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, I mean, Lombardy is the closest one that Grantour winner can win. The other four is. They are really unlikely. Maybe Liege, Baston, Liege. But also, it's really hard for a Grand Tour contender to win those races.
- [30:52]
Peter Attia
We have Paris, Roubaix still.
- [30:54]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, Paris, Roubaix and San Remo.
- [30:56]
Peter Attia
San Remo, Yeah.
- [30:57]
Tadej Pogačar
San Remo is the one that is going to send me to grave. I have a feeling you're going to.
- [31:02]
Peter Attia
Die trying to win that.
- [31:03]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, probably. I'm getting so close, but it's yet so far, it's unbelievable.
- [31:08]
Peter Attia
To be clear, this is a goal. You want to win all five.
- [31:11]
Tadej Pogačar
I want to win first world championships Sanremo and then we can see if there is a space for Roubaix or not.
- [31:18]
Peter Attia
Not to discount it, but the Vuelta.
- [31:20]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, of course, Vuelta. My first Grand Tour in 2019. The podium was breakthrough for me with three stages, white jersey. And I want to come back and seal the deal with the red jersey for sure.
- [31:33]
Peter Attia
Yeah. Well, I think you will try. What about the Olympics? Where does that rank on your goals?
- [31:39]
Tadej Pogačar
Well, it's in Los Angeles in four years. I really hope for a nice parkour again. Climbing parkours like was in Tokyo or even harder. Yeah, we'll see when they announce it how eager I will be. But Olympics in cycling is.
- [31:56]
Peter Attia
It's hard timing right on the heels.
- [31:58]
Tadej Pogačar
Of the Tour, you know, for other sports. In some other sports they train four years just for Olympics and then this is the peak of career. And in cycling, the peak of your career needs to be Tour de France every year.
- [32:13]
Peter Attia
So it's not as high a priority as winning the world's, obviously.
- [32:15]
Tadej Pogačar
No, I mean, yeah, it's not.
- [32:18]
Peter Attia
Do you watch. Have you seen any of the Netflix series? Netflix has done the two specials on the Tour. Have you ever watched them?
- [32:24]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, I watched the first season. I didn't watch the second season. I watched because I was in training camp. I didn't have anything better to watch. But yeah, for people like us, when we are there now, it's not so fun to watch.
- [32:37]
Peter Attia
It's fun for me to be able to watch it with my wife or with friends if they're not cycling fans. So they're not going to watch the Tour with me and stuff like that. One of the things that people who don't watch cycling, and frankly, people like me who do, still cannot believe, is how you guys are able to ride while fans are encroaching the roads. What's the closest call you've had with a fan?
- [32:58]
Tadej Pogačar
First? Yeah, the fans are amazing. When I was a kid, I always wanted that feeling, to ride through the group of fans like this. And now I enjoyed the most. Yeah, the closest I've been, I don't know, in coloze was in 2020. Was some close calls. Rich Slovenian fan. Yeah, but normally you need to watch the flags. The flags are really tricky one, because they are waiting in the middle of the road and they move it the last time, and sometimes they move differently the flag.
- [33:31]
Peter Attia
And when I'm watching this with my wife, she gets so mad at the tv. She's like, get out of the way. Get out of the way. I mean, she's screaming at the TV for the fans to move. She's so upset.
- [33:41]
Tadej Pogačar
I think they help. I think they help.
- [33:43]
Peter Attia
So I was going to say the opposite, because I try to put myself in a cyclist's shoes, and I feel like I would subconsciously be holding back a little bit for fear of hitting them. Not that you're worried about hitting them, but worried about falling because you're going to.
- [33:56]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, you do sometimes let off the throttle a little bit. Especially, like, if you attack or something and you're in the zone, you feel like you're pushing all the Watts that you can. But then when you see the fence, I don't know, you may be let off a little bit, but it's still high power, I would say. But also because when the adrenaline.
- [34:16]
Peter Attia
But the cheering is just.
- [34:17]
Tadej Pogačar
Adrenaline is so high. And the noise is incredible. The noise is so loud in. You're just riding and you don't actually lose any momentum. And it's crazy. It's hard to describe.
- [34:30]
Peter Attia
I can't imagine. Actually, it looks like one of the craziest things I've ever seen. This year in the Tour, I was very surprised that certain commentators were almost expressing disappointment when you were winning stages after you had already secured the yellow jersey. Did any of that make it to you? And if so, does that mean anything to you that people are saying he shouldn't be winning so much?
- [34:54]
Tadej Pogačar
I actually don't see so many people saying he shouldn't win so much. Okay, the ones that hate me, they will say that, but obviously they hold something against me. It's normal. But even the people that are neutral and this. Don't say it, that I should hold back, I shouldn't win so much. It's just the media and the commentators and journalists, they like to say these.
- [35:18]
Peter Attia
Things just so have something controversial to say.
- [35:21]
Tadej Pogačar
But I really don't see so much controversy in this because also for me, in some stages, a lot of stages, I count the other day how many stages I win 12 stages in Grand Tours this year. And I think we control to win and that I won was seven stages. So it's just a little bit more than half now. So it's not so bad.
- [35:46]
Peter Attia
Do you even think about equaling or bettering the mark now of Mercs and Cavendish in Tour stage wins?
- [35:53]
Tadej Pogačar
I don't want to think so much ahead just because you never know when is your last win.
- [35:58]
Peter Attia
That's why you take every win.
- [36:00]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah. If it's there, you take it. If you enjoy, you feel good, you go for the stage, you win. No. Unless. Is there some other reason? But Yeah, I mean, 36 or how much?
- [36:12]
Peter Attia
Yeah, 34 or 36 or something like that.
- [36:13]
Tadej Pogačar
35 stages from Cavendish is just crazy. And yeah, it's an incredible achievement. I don't want to think so much ahead. I want to go from Tour to Tour and see how I feel and what can I do now?
- [36:27]
Peter Attia
Have you met Eddy Merckx? I assume you have.
- [36:29]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, I did. I met him a few times. One time more closely, but that was now already three years ago. Yeah, we met for dinner. Was nice.
- [36:41]
Peter Attia
There's a great book about him called Half Man, Half Bike. It's one of my favorite books about cycling and it's kind of the story of his life and career. It's just amazing. I'm sure you would enjoy it because it gives you an appreciation for how could a guy win all of these races? Like what you're doing, right? You're winning Grand Tours, he's winning the one day classics. And then of course in 1972 to just obliterate the one hour world record, a record that would stand for 12 years. And even 12 years later when it was broken by Francesco Moser, I mean it was using completely new aero equipment and stuff, whereas Merckx did it on a simple bike. I've read certainly that Merckx has considered you truly the second coming of him. That must mean a lot to you.
- [37:24]
Tadej Pogačar
I don't know. I don't know how to respond to that. But yeah, for sure, he was one of the greatest, especially at his time. This was Incredible. And how he won the races and I never saw any of his racing. But yeah, just when you read his palmares, it's just unbelievable. And yeah, it's something that you cannot imagine in this era to achieve. So I don't think it's possible to do the same what he did. No, but yeah, it's different cycling now.
- [37:56]
Peter Attia
Do you think that the one hour record is something you would even entertain in terms of like making the effort for it and training for it?
- [38:02]
Tadej Pogačar
Setting aside time, I was until yeah, Ghana did it and then Bingham, I think he did also before people. Before that time I would consider it. Now not so much. I mean, Ghana was fast. Really, he did incredible.
- [38:22]
Peter Attia
What is the difference between your power when you are climbing so you're femurs are not kinked down versus when you're in a time trial position? How many watts do you lose being in a time trial position for the same period of time?
- [38:35]
Tadej Pogačar
I don't know. I still trying to figure this one out actually. But yeah, I see that. I have one time trial. I have some good days and some bad days. I'm not so consistent as on a road bike. But when it matters, I can push more or less the same numbers on the TT bike as on the road bike. It's coming all along now with biomechanics, wind tunnel testings and so many trainings, so many intervals doing that you trying to figure out the best position to be possible to do this power.
- [39:07]
Peter Attia
You mentioned that you did some more strength work in the off season, coming into 24 as part of the reason why you seemed even stronger than before, which is hard to imagine. Were you doing any strength training for your legs? Were you doing any weights?
- [39:21]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah, a little bit weights. I'm still doing the strength training throughout the season, but with less weights. But yeah, still legs, core, glutes, hips. And this is for me personally is important.
- [39:36]
Peter Attia
Yeah, not anymore. But did you ever used to, when you were growing up, run or swim or do any other endurance sports?
- [39:43]
Tadej Pogačar
We were younger in our team in Ljubljana. In the winter we were running up the mountain three, four times per week. After school we had meeting, training, meeting and we go this mountain that was close by and we go two, three times up, down, that was it. We swam also a few years, one time per week for one hour or something. Yeah, we tried different sports in the winter and cross country skiing, this is my favorite. Yeah, running on the flat, not so much, but now I try. In the last two years I tried to put running also into off season. Really I tried to start in off season and I tried to keep it as long as possible into season, but it didn't work out this year.
- [40:25]
Peter Attia
So in your off season, what is the most days you'll go without being on a bike at all? No stationary bike, no outdoors?
- [40:32]
Tadej Pogačar
Well, stationary bike is no go for me anyway. Especially in off season. I don't do it. But yeah, I don't know. We have a team camp in uae. It's like six days. But yeah. Last year for example, we went with the boys run together in Abu Dhabi two times and playing Padel something. So. And then going off to vacation. Then on vacation you get bored, you go for a run or playing Padel or whatever again or swimming. And I cannot say that I do two weeks without the bike or without any training at all because I really enjoy it, doing other stuff and other sports. So yeah, maybe three days doing nothing. Then one day you do something and then maybe three days again nothing. And. But then mid November, always starting on a bike, road bike again.
- [41:24]
Peter Attia
How old were you when you realized you were going to be or you knew you wanted to be a professional cyclist?
- [41:28]
Tadej Pogačar
I was a Junior, so 16, 17 years. 17 years old when I thought that I have a chance to be professional, to be in the World Tour team. But yeah, second year juniors, I realized that I can definitely be in World Tour. And then when I come to under 23, I already signed with UAE team pre contract for 2019. So two years after.
- [41:56]
Peter Attia
Well, today I have a million more questions I could ask you, but I know you've got a team meeting shortly. I want to make sure you get to that on time. I want to make sure you get a good dinner and have a great race tomorrow. And above all else, I mean really, we're just. I think everybody's kind of excited to see you at the Worlds in a couple of weeks. And again, not to put pressure on you, but just so people understand the significance of that, to be able to win two Grand Tours in a year is really unprecedented. If there's a chance to add a world title to that, it's kind of unbelievable. And at the other end of that, should it not happen this year, given that you're not yet 26, I think most people would take the bet that you're going to have another shot at that.
- [42:31]
Tadej Pogačar
Yeah. But the sooner we get it over, the better it is. There is no more pressure.
- [42:36]
Peter Attia
Yeah. I love it. Well, thank you. Tade.
- [42:38]
Tadej Pogačar
Thank you so much.
- [42:40]
Peter Attia
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