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The Portrait System Podcast
ANNE GEDDES Tells The Story Of Her PHENOMENAL Success (Re-Release)
00:59:53
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Hey there, it's Nikki Klosser and I.
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Want to let you know about an.
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Awesome free giveaway for people on our email list. If you haven't already, click the link in our podcast description or go to theportraitsystem.com signup to get on the list. If you sign up, you'll get a free posing 101 PDF to jumpstart things. It's an epic PDF, so you'll definitely want to get this. Also, just by being in our email community, you'll get deals, sales and information about any of our upcoming events and activities. So head over to theportraitsystem.com sign up and and sign up. Today you're listening to the Portrait System podcast.
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You can be original in this world today, right? Forget about social media. You can't blame anything other than yourself in terms of challenging yourself to tell your own authentic story.
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Welcome to the Portrait System Podcast. I'm your host, Nikki Klosser and this.
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Show is here to help you succeed.
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In the world of photography and business. To help you learn to become financially free, doing what you love and so, so much more. With over 1 million downloads, countless photographers have taken what they've learned from both.
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Our episodes and from theportraitsystem.com and they.
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Have grown their businesses, quit their day.
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Jobs, and are designing a life of their dreams.
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We keep it real and share stories.
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About the ups and downs that come.
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With running a photography business. You'll hear real life stories of how other photographers run their business and you'll.
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Learn actionable steps that you can take.
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To reach your own goals.
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Thank you so much for being here.
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And let's get started you guys. This week I got to interview Ann Geddes and I have to say I did my best not to fangirl her, but it's so crazy because I had her work hanging in my room as a kid and just talking with her about how she created her iconic baby portraits and how she achieved selling millions of calendars, greeting cards and coffee table books was just amazing. Anne is a brilliant storyteller and she was inducted into the International Photography hall of Fame. And I'm not surprised one bit seeing as her convinced millions of people to display images of strangers, babies in their homes. Ann is a multiple New York Times bestseller and European bestseller and her photography has been treasured, enjoyed and respected by many generations. I am so honored to present to you the Anne Geddes. Hi Ann. Welcome to the Portrait System. How are you?
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C
I'm very well and it's Great to be here.
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A
Oh, thank you so much for being here. It's interesting because you are like the first photographer who was just so well known. For me as a person, this is way before I was even a photographer. Back in the 90s, I was in high school.
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C
Probably before you were even born.
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A
No, I was born. I'm 47, Ann, so I'm not that. No, but you are the first well known photographer that I knew of and that my friends knew of and we were all buying your things and it's just so crazy now to be, you know, where I'm at today as a photographer and then to be able to chat with you about all of this is really, really cool. And I know for our listeners too.
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C
Well, you know, it's a pleasure and you know, it's been nice for me to hear over all the years, you know, that I've inspired other people to go tell their own stories because that's what I essentially think of myself as a storyteller.
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A
It seems like that through your work, that you are a storyteller and I know like through your coffee books and calendars and just your images and just everything, there's so much behind all of it, all of the photographs. And I know you like to tell those stories about how you did it and you know, you're kind of doing some new things where you're telling those stories to intimate groups and I don't know, it's just really cool. It's really cool to hear about all of it.
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C
Oh, well, thank you. Yeah. And it's a pretty long story, you know, because I'm 67 and I first picked up a camera when I was 25. And you know, at this conversation afternoon that I'm going to be having, I'm, you know, digging a bit deeper into how I first decided to pick up a camera and in my early family life and that sort of thing. And a lot of people don't realize that for the first 10 years of my career I pretty much did portraiture, private portraiture only.
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A
So just for clients, correct? Yeah. Okay, got it correct.
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C
I'm Australian. But most of that early career and you know, a lot of the coffee table books, seven in all, were shot in New Zealand and the final books were in Sydney, Australia. But we went over to New Zealand because my husband was offered a job launching a new television network over there, TV3. And he had 30 years experience in television. And so, you know, our girls were four and two and. And we packed everything up and went over to Auckland and ended up spending the next 18 years there. Because by the time Kel got the television established and we started working together, we had such a great team and, you know, of kiwis and, you know, a great studio, that sort of thing. So we just ended up staying. So our two girls literally did all of their schooling up until college or university in New Zealand.
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A
Wow. What a great place to grow up.
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C
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's fantastic. You know, when we first got there, gosh, it was. It was a totally different country to what it is now. I mean, it was hard to even get a cappuccino or something there. And of course, now they've got this fabulous restaurant, coffee culture and that sort of thing. So, you know, we were able to be a part of all of that.
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A
Yeah, it's very cool. I'm curious how. Cause you said you originally started, you know, with just typical clients shooting portraiture, and then somehow you transition to convincing millions and millions of people that they should have photos of strangers, babies, all over their house. Like, that is not an easy task. Like, wow.
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C
I tell this story a lot, and it's a very important message that I like to get across to photographers these days, Right. And I've only just started doing these conversations and workshops and so on because I've been asked for years and years to do it. And I always thought, I can't teach someone to be me, Right. But now I've come around to the conclusion that I can help somebody tell their own story by telling my own. And the way I got into portraiture and everything was, you know, I said to myself, you know, I only have maybe three images of myself under two years of age. And. Wow.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Firstly, that motivated me to, you know, want to tell stories for other, you know, babies coming through so they could look back. But a lot of the portraiture that was done in those times and when I was growing up, like, my mother would take us to, you know, we lived in a small town in North Queensland called Home Hill. Take us to the local portrait studio. We'd all be dressed in our Sunday best. And, you know, when I look at that image, you know, of the five of us, five girls, you can't really see any of our character within it. And so when I first started doing portraiture, that was my goal, was to, you know, just show children as they are and at the different ages as they are. And that sort of caught on because it was very natural. And when I first started out, and to anyone who's listening to this, you know, if you're just starting out. It's not going to happen for you overnight to find your own way of telling your story. And I struggled a little bit in the early years, Kel and I. My husband lived in Hong Kong for two years, and that's where I first picked up a camera, which happened to be his secondhand Pentax K1000. And I thought, well, you know, just photograph families in their homes and gardens and that sort of thing. And, you know, it was all right, Nicky, you know, I was just like, oh, it's nice, but there's something missing. And we went back to Australia. This is following Kel's career in television and ended up in Melbourne, Australia. And I was pregnant with Kelly, our second. And I was looking through a local newspaper and I turned the page and I saw this image of a little girl who must have been five or six years old. And it was such a simple, beautiful image with a plain background, and it was just. It just really stopped me in my tracks. And the photographer's name was Leanne Temi. And so I thought, oh, give her a call and say. Because I wasn't really doing portraiture as such as right then. And so I called her and I said, would you like somebody to just help? You don't have to pay me, you know, an unpaid assistant. And she was like, yeah, sure. I photograph on Saturdays and come in, you know. And I remember the moment when I first walked into a studio. It was like the penny dropped, right? And ever since then, whenever I go into a studio and I use the same one here in New York all the time, Blonde and co, I always had this sense of an empty space, right, where I'm going to create something from that day. And that's. That's the way I see photography, right? It's. It's snatching magic out of the air that wasn't there before, right? And so once I started, you know, helping Leanne in the studio, and then I. She got me into the dark room and all that sort of thing, and I was really hooked on it. And so I am essentially a studio photographer. Like, I don't go out to people's houses and things like that, you know, that's not the way I think, but, you know, to just shorten the story or you can edit all this out, but if you're photographing any photographer who's photographing children, you know, for their career, and I would do two portrait sittings a day, five days a week, and it was just me, you know, answering the phone and all that Sort of thing. You quickly learn how to relate to children of different ages, you know, and, and there's a lot of newborn photography around, of course, but then I was, I was doing 6 month olds and 12 month olds and 18 month olds and 2 year olds and, and essentially, you know, did my 10,000 hours, so to speak, many times over. But because it's difficult to, and I'm sure a lot of photographers will agree, it's difficult to relate to a child who considers you a stranger and especially when you're talking about 2 year olds and 3 year olds and siblings and all of that sort of thing.
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A
Absolutely, yeah.
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And to connect with them within a relatively short period, like 20 minutes or so, and have their parents say, oh my goodness, you, that's them. You've captured their personality was really rewarding. On the flip side, it's exhausting. And the more successful I became, the more I could charge and the more it put the pressure on and that sort of thing.
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D
Right.
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C
And so the way I got into doing a lot of my own creative work is I said to myself, once a month, you are going to do an image purely for yourself. No parents saying, oh, but they're not smiling. Oh, but, you know, so and so. And this is such a great message to get across to anybody who is doing portraiture or, you know, doing repetitive work, you know, as their main thoroughfare in terms of creativity. So I said, once a month it's just you, right? Do whatever you want. And the two first images, the first and the second images that I created were a black and white image of a little baby called Joshua who's hanging in a sling off a meat hook, would you believe? Because our local butcher said, why don't you use this? It's really strong and so, so great. I've had so many people go, oh, well, what's the meaning of the meat hook and everything? It's like nothing really. You know, sometimes it's nothing really. But I remember taking this print home and putting it on my dining table and I was there by myself and I looked at it and I said, I really like that.
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D
Right.
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And it was, it was a, like a, a very, very critical moment for me in terms of my creative journey. And then the second month. But you have to make yourself do it right? And nobody needs to see these images, right? Just you or, or if you want to show them to the world, whatever.
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D
Right.
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C
But, but this is way, way, way before the Internet, of course. And the second image is one that most people will know. It's the little twin babies in the cabbages.
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I know exactly what you're talking about.
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Yeah. Reese and Grant, and they were, you know, I can tell all these stories behind the rules just take too much time. But that was the catalyst for me going, yeah, I mean, I really enjoy this. Right. And the way we got them to look at each other because, you know, when you're a twin, it's pretty boring at home. You can look at your brother anytime. And when you're in a studio, when you're in a studio and all these people are walking around and, you know, cabbages getting put together out of two cabbages, out of 20 cabbages. Mind you, the way we got them to look at each other was my assistant lowered a balloon down between their heads, and they turned to look at the balloon and she whipped it up out of the way. It was on a piece of string. And so, you know, every month I would keep doing. Telling my own story in my own way.
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D
Right.
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C
And you have to have your own creative story to succeed in the world today.
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D
Right.
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C
And it was like that back then. And nothing has changed. Right. Authenticity is key in terms of attaching your name as an artist to an image that you've created. And so there I went, you know, once a month and for a good six months. And then the images started to get the attention of. It was first with greeting cards. And a company in New Zealand called John Sands approached me and said, you know, we'd love to do a greeting card range. And so the first greeting card range which came out included those once a month stories that I was telling via imagery, but also a selection of the portraits that I'd done over the past 10 years, you know, with the permission of the parents, of course. And so it just sort of developed from there. And, of course, if you're doing greeting cards, then it's seasonal. And, you know, it's a lot of pressure to, you know, keep. A lot of the very early images were seasonal greeting card images. And then came the calendars and then the very first book, down in the Garden. And so there was a point where I was able to let go of the portraiture because I was getting financial returns from royalties from the greeting cards and the calendars. And then we were approached to do a book. And so that's how down in the Garden started. And Kel and I talk about this, you know, fairly often. A publisher came over from the US From a company called Citco who initially published down in the Garden. And they don't exist anymore, but the manager of the company, he came over and he's like, he came all the way to New Zealand. And I was like, so excited about down in the Garden, you know, And I had it all drawn out on these pieces of Phil's cup paper in a big sprawling. This is going to be the cabbages. And then we're going to say this, and then we're going to have this and this and this. And Chuck was sitting there looking at me like, when are you going to stop talking?
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D
Right?
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C
And I was, like, looking at him and there's this kind of blank look on his face, you know, And I'm like. And then they've got. These two little babies are going to be like mice in the boots. And this can look like someone's opened the door of the shed and this light shines through and there they are in the boots, sleeping. And he's obviously thought, okay, whatever. And he looked at Kel and all he said was, how much? And I was like, is that all you can say, right? And so down in the Garden was really a catalyst for getting me into that world where I was full time creating for the future. And you can only do that in a business. And I know a lot of people are listening to me who are wanting that sort of advice. That's the only way you can do it. The only way to make good money out of photography. And I don't like to even talk about the money, but you have to is if you have funds coming in when you're not behind a camera, right? Otherwise it's just, you're catching up all the time. But that's. That's how it freed me up to be able to just basically do whatever I could imagine because, you know, down in the Garden and it. Oprah Winfrey and Celine Dion had a big input into the success of down in the Garden. And Celine's involvement was, you know, in those days, and they probably still do it now. Regularly, magazines in the holiday period would ask celebrities, what's their top 10 gift given list?
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D
Right?
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C
And Celine, I didn't know her, apparently said, oh, down in the Garden. This one of them, I think it was number one, actually, the book down in the Garden. And someone told me that and I was like, oh, okay, that's great. That's pretty cool, right? And then to cut a long story short, we had a little girl called Stacy Harris who died of cancer when she was 9. And she was the biggest Celine Dion fan ever. And she used to sit in a hospital bed with a little fluffy Hair and all that sort of thing, and so ill, and just listen to Celine Dion CDs, right? And I thought, you know, maybe if Celine knows my name and likes the book, then I could get her to write a note for Stacy in the hospital. And so I got in touch through some way with her New York agent and left a message saying, hey, it's me, you know, I heard you like my book. And we had a little friend, Stacy, yada, yada, and this is her phone number and mine. And if you just write a note, you know, it would just be the best thing. And so a couple of weeks later, on a Saturday morning in Auckland and it was raining and the phone rang and it was Stacy's mother, Jill, who said, you're not going to believe what just happened. And I was like, what? And she said, well, Stacy's phone rang and you would know, Nikki and anyone who photographs kids, it's really hard to have a conversation with an 8 or 9 year old, especially if they're really ill, without getting no responses, right? And Jill was sitting there and Stacy was chatting away. And Jill's like, who's she talking to? Right? Maybe she thought it was me or something, right? And then Stacy hung up and Jill said, who was that? And Stacy said, oh, Celine Dion.
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A
Oh, I have the goosebumps. I can't even imagine what a dream come true for Stacy.
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C
And then my phone rang at home and it was Celine. And she said, you know, I just spoke to Stacy. And I said, I heard. I said, honestly, Celine, you have no idea what you've done for a little girl in a hospital bed in Auckland on a rainy Saturday morning, right? And it was like after midnight in New York. And she said, oh, don't be silly. She said, somebody asked you to do something like that, you do it, right? And then we started talking and that's how, you know, the miracle project with Celine Dion came about.
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A
Wow.
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C
But so then Oprah, who, you know, knows Celine, and next minute, the Oprah Winfrey show called and said, come over and be on the show for down in the Garden. And I'd never watched the Oprah Winfrey show or anything, but then Oprah walked out on, on the stage with two little babies in the bumblebee outfits. And I did an interview with her. And at the end of the interview, she held up down in the Garden and said, this is the best coffee table book, seriously.
- [22:07]
D
Right?
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C
And it just shot up the New York Times bestseller list.
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A
Oh, my gosh.
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C
Yeah, it was like one of those.
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A
It's Amazing that that all came from doing something from the heart.
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C
Correct? Absolutely. Authenticity. Authenticity. Yeah, yeah.
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A
And listening to everything you've said, there are so many different pieces just moving parts to what we do. One, we're obviously, if you're a photographer, you have some sort of creative bone in your body and you feel the need to create.
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C
Yes.
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A
Some people, they are full on creators. Like, it sounds like you are. Like, you need that in your blood. You know, you have to be doing it.
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C
Yes.
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A
Some people, which I'm more of a. I'm a creator for sure, but like, I need a system to follow. And this is what. At the beginning when you were saying, you know, I can't teach people to be me. But hearing your story and talking about your process sparks ideas for me. And I'm like, okay, well, I could. I could do that. I could follow that system exactly. You know what I mean? So it really is important to hear because it's like. But okay, so that there's that creative part. There's doing things authentically from the heart and then there's that, like, being a business owner, the back end stuff that most of us just, like, want to, like, sit in the corner.
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C
It's boring, you know, like, really tedious.
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D
Right.
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C
But thankfully I had somebody to do that for me.
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A
That was my next question was how much of the. You know, because you make it sound so, so easy. Like, yeah, someone reached out to me and now and then I started these greeting cards and then this other company reached out and I started doing this and like, in the moment.
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C
10 years of work. 10 years of work.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. Like, okay, so in the, like, it wasn't just something that. I know you said it didn't happen overnight or whatever, but, like, in the meantime, like, what were you doing to really get noticed? Because I feel like someone doesn't just reach out all of a sudden if they don't know who you are or you're not putting yourself out there or networking or marketing. Like, how did that all come together? I guess.
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C
Well, it started small, right, with the John Sands Company. I'm not sure if they're still around in New Zealand saying, we'd love to do a greeting card range.
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D
Right.
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C
And so I worked really hard on that.
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D
Right.
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C
And so you're talking about a year, maybe two. I'm not sure of the specific dates, but until the very first calendar, I could see the response to the imagery of, like, for instance, the cabbage kids and, you know, just the early portraiture that I was doing, which in my talks I would show it's not. It was unique in a way, because you've got to have your own unique selling point, right? There's a lot of sameness out there, especially in the newborn world where you're not going to, yes, you can make a nice living, but you're not going to stand out if you're just producing work that's the same as everybody else. And I don't mean in any way to criticize for sure that, because I think so many people really enjoy, you know, working with the babies and that sort of thing. And that's all well and good, but you're not going to get noticed unless you're doing something original. And for me, that was just my way of looking at things, you know, the cabbages. And I grew up on a cattle station, they call it in Australia, but it's a ranch here. And I spent, you know, all of my childhood in nature, you know, because we were on a 23,000 acre ranch and, you know, riding horses, you know, being part of growing vegetables and all of that sort of thing. It was a very organic upbringing. And that's the way I kind of developed my own sensibility. And there's a. You guys can Google this. A woman called May Gibbs G I W S and she was an English woman who came out to Australia and had these beautiful illustrations of these little bush babies called Snuggle Pot and Cutle Pie. And I used to lie in bed and they were all so beautiful little babies. They were, you know, about 18 months old or something, but they're all bush babies and all the characters were, you know, possums and kangaroos and all that sort of thing. And I really identified with that world. And I used to lie in bed, you know, as a child, and just stare at it and think, oh, it is so beautiful, so beautiful. And so that's. I found out where my sensibility and creativity came from even in my childhood. And there's a story that was critical for me when I was about, gosh, six or seven years old and it's really hot in North Queensland and it's. North Queensland is like Florida, right? Australia is like America turned upside down, right? And so North Queensland is very hot and humid and blah, blah, blah. And I was standing, it was a weekend, and I was standing on the front lawn of our house and my mother was hanging laundry on the clothesline. And I remember it was. The grass was prickly under my feet and I said to her, there's something that I need to do, but I don't know what it is. And she looked at me really strangely and she said, well, go and ride your bike, you know, or something. And I said, no, that's not what I mean. And I always had. I don't know where that came from right at that age, but I've always had this need to connect in that way creatively. And so everyone needs to find their own unique story. And you can't just say, oh, well, you know, it's different now with digital and the Internet and TikTok, whatever that is. You know, I don't know how to work that.
- [28:25]
A
You know, I'm not on TikTok either. Well, I tried, I tried, but I don't know, I just couldn't do it.
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C
I am. But this young fellow is doing it for me and I'm like, I don't. I keep getting emails going, oh, someone's following you on TikTok. And I'm like, oh, okay, that's nice. But see, it, it. You can be original in this world today.
- [28:45]
D
Right.
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C
Forget about social media. You can't blame anything other than yourself in terms of challenging yourself to tell your own authentic story.
- [28:57]
A
And I feel like that's where it gets tricky. You brought up the repetitiveness of doing the client work and the same thing over and over. And I focus mostly on personal branding photography. So a lot of my clients are business owner entrepreneurs. And I have a very efficient system because I don't want to spend all day doing photo shoots. I have my backdrops and I have my poses and it works really well. And my clients love their photos and I make a lot of money doing it.
- [29:23]
C
Good.
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A
But there is this piece that I do miss out on, and that's one day a month.
- [29:29]
C
One day a month, yes.
- [29:31]
A
And that's what I do. I do high school senior photo shoots and I grow wildflowers on our property. And that's when I get to just. And those. Well, okay, so those are kind of for clients, too. But every so often I do a shoot just for myself and I style it and, you know, they wear what I want them to wear and it looks how I want to look and there's no pressure to please anybody else.
- [29:50]
C
Yeah, that's great, isn't it?
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A
And that helps me to continue on with the repetitive work.
- [29:56]
C
It energizes you. But you should never think of your work as repetitive.
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D
Right.
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C
Always find a little bit of joy out of some part of it. You know, people say to me all the time, ask me all the time, what are your. Have you got A favorite image or have you got, you know, a few favorite images and. And, yes, I do. You know, there's probably about 20 or so over all of those years of photographing where the baby has given you something that's so fleeting, right, that you. It's like a gift. I say it all the time. You know, it's like the little baby who's lying in the roses with that lovely smile on her face that a lot of people will know. You know, it's. It's an instant. An instant, and you've got to be there and you've got to snatch it out of the air. The magic, right? And you've always got to be looking for that, because children will give that to you, right? If you just. You got to just push yourself. Never be bored with repetitiveness, right? Don't make it repetitive. Choose not to make it repetitive. It could just be, you know, if you're doing college seniors or something, it could be the way two people are relating to each other. Anything at all, right? There's a little bit of magic in the images that make you stop scrolling or turning the pages in a magazine and that sort of thing. And I think if people keep that in mind, it should energize them a little bit to be that good and even better, right? You've got to have that confidence in yourself.
- [31:38]
A
Yeah. Hey, just a quick break to tell you that since you're here listening, you have access to a really great offer for our listeners only. We have a special promo code you can use to get 50% off the cost of membership. Just go to theportraitsystem.com or click the link in the description and use the promo code PODCAST50 to get 50% off of a membership. We rarely discount membership, so this is a big deal. As I hope you already know, the membership is how I and so many guests on this podcast reached our success. And it gives you access to countless amazing videos, an awesome community, and all the tools you need to build a massively successful business. So use the code podcast50Now to join the community and to start building the business of your dreams. I'll see you there. I did. It's interesting that you just said the word confidence because I put together a personal branding posing guide and I wanted to use all my real clients from over the last decade. I was so emotional, Anne. And obviously I'm not photographing children. You know, they're grown women mostly, and men, but mostly women. And look, when I was putting together over the last 10 years, this book of all of the clients. It was exactly what you said. I could look at each one and remember how I felt during that shoot. I could remember the exact moment I knew they felt confident when I was photographing them. I remember what their business is. I remember, you know, certain things about them. And it was so emotional. It, like brought me to tears. Looking back at all of it and.
- [33:08]
C
Good for you, you know, isn't that great that you're like, yeah, I did really well. Right? That looks great. And everyone should do that. Go back over their work like that. You surprise yourself.
- [33:19]
D
Right.
- [33:21]
C
You know, and I'm, you know, talking about down in the garden being 30 years in 20, 26, and I want to go back and, you know, look at those images. Yes. I was just looking through the book again today and. But go and revisit some of the babies who are now 30 years old, you know, and say to them how you feel looking at this image.
- [33:45]
A
Oh my gosh, that'd be so cool.
- [33:47]
C
And maybe they would have their own babies.
- [33:49]
D
Right.
- [33:50]
C
And then I could include it in a revised version. You've got to always, yes, everyone has to do the day to day work, but put some magic in your head all the time and imagine doing something that unexpected.
- [34:07]
D
Right.
- [34:08]
C
For you, for you. Because you have to be a little bit afraid. And I think that's really important. You gotta be. You can't be going to work and, you know, oh, this three, four newborns do the same thing, you know, that's not. I mean, I understand that, yes, people have to do that, but where's your little bit of magic, right? That keeps you going and that's your one day a month now.
- [34:36]
A
And I know, I think July 27th in New York, you're doing a storytelling event where it's limited to a certain amount of people who get to come and, you know, hear some really great stories. And so I don't necessarily want to ruin all of that, but I'm curious, like, the baby, the chubby baby and the pink roses and the cabbage, like, is any of that composited that you've ever done or is everything real? Real, yeah, that's what I thought.
- [35:02]
C
Everything is real unless it's completely obvious.
- [35:06]
D
Right.
- [35:07]
C
With down in the Garden, everything is real because it was very. It came out in 1996, which means I was photographing for the years before 1996, so early 90s. The image of the little baby and the roses. Yeah, that's. Oh, my God, that's a lot of magic in that there. Right then, you know, and I can tell a story, you know, that she's. Her mother had this magnificent rose garden. It was actually a portrait. It was a private portrait. And you know, I would always talk to the clients beforehand, a bit of a planning session, because that's the other thing I never want to do is keep repeating myself, right? And so sometimes you got to break out of that a little bit and. But. And it makes it harder, right? It's exhausting to not repeat yourself all the time. I would always think, yeah, you can start with the basics. But this shoot in front of me now is its own thing, right? And so anyway, Philippa, the little baby, who. I said to her mother, she said, oh, I've got this beautiful rose garden. And you know, those gorgeous roses, you know, that aren't shop bought, right? They're just, they. They just grow like that in people's gardens. And so I said to her, well, you know, bring a, bring a bunch or bring a lot, right? And she said, oh, I think I'll bring a lot. You know, she turns up and she's like. She was from a rural area outside of Auckland, and so she's got these buckets of roses, the most magnificent roses, right?
- [36:40]
A
Wow.
- [36:41]
C
All dethorned. And. And of course, and little Philippa. At one stage, she was. We had to come up flight of stairs to the studio and she plopped Philippa down on the, on the carpet and went down to get some more, you know, roses from the back of her car. And Philippa's sitting there and I remember she's wearing this little pink dress and she looked up with that smile, right? And I said to her mother, oh, my God, that smile is absolutely gorgeous. And she said, really? She said, I hate it when she smiles like that because it's kind of like a.
- [37:14]
A
That gummy like.
- [37:15]
C
Yeah, it's like a fake smile that she puts on, you know. You know, some babies these days, when you pull out a phone, they do that, they put on the fake smell. Yeah. And she said, anyway, if you want to want that, then all you gotta do is smile at her like that and she'll do it, right? But of course, Philip is nine months old and we've got her lying in the roses and I'm up in the ceiling with a camera through this hole and you've got the camera in front of your face and you're trying to smile at her and you know, camera smile, camera smile. And she's looking up like, you're a lunatic, right? To me. And then all of a sudden she did It.
- [37:51]
D
Right.
- [37:51]
C
It was just bam. Just like that, like half a second, and she did it. And in the film days, of course, you have to wait for the film to come back, come to the lab. It's like, oh, please, please.
- [38:03]
D
Right?
- [38:04]
C
And that's the magic. Because it was just one image, right?
- [38:08]
D
One.
- [38:08]
A
Oh, and then you saw. You picked up that film or it was sent to you or whatever.
- [38:12]
C
Yeah. It's like training transparencies, you know, And. And you just say, oh, God. Oh, my God, you know, And. And that. Strive for that all the time. If I'm giving advice to people, you know, strive for it. Strive for the magic, right? And. But you got to be quick. And you can't also photograph with blinkers on, right? You can't be. This is what I'm going to produce. Because something can come out of left field so fast. That's the magic. And you can't miss it, right? And especially if you're. If you're dealing with children. Yeah. They can give you the magic. You just gotta be on the lookout.
- [38:48]
A
Back when, back when I used to shoot weddings, way back when, for my second shooter, I used to say, when I put my camera down, I want yours to go up because I'm gonna miss something. Like, you know, I need to take a break. I can't always have it up. My. The whole time I would be like, watch me. When mine goes down, yours goes up. Because I feel like when I would put my camera down as the main shooter, they're like, okay, I can relax, I can breathe easy, whatever. And sometimes they would be able to get that in between moment that I wasn't getting when my camera was down.
- [39:18]
C
I photographed two weddings, right. Oh, God, Nikki, I can't tell you the stories here because they have to come on the 27th. I can't.
- [39:28]
D
Oh, my God.
- [39:30]
C
No. Never again.
- [39:31]
A
I didn't love. I did not care for it. And I'm not gonna lie.
- [39:35]
C
But, you know, it's like documentary photography, photographing weddings, you know? And you know, my attraction to photography also, when I was young, in my teenage years, I would subscribe to Life magazine when it was in its heyday, right.
- [39:51]
A
I remember, like, we had a subscription. Yeah.
- [39:54]
C
And that was documentary photography, telling a story. Story in that one image.
- [39:59]
D
Right.
- [40:00]
C
And I stared at some of the documentary photographers from the past were extraordinary, you know, Cartier, Bresson and, you know, the perfect moment and all of this. And they're in war zones and so on, but you're seizing a moment, and that's what every photographer is doing. You're seizing a moment that's going to be there forever. And so all the time, it's exhausting. Try and make it worthwhile, right? Try and tell your own story.
- [40:31]
A
I love that you said that even in this world today, you can still be original. You can still have authenticity. It never ends. It never ends. It's like saying you can't make a new song that has never been made before. I mean, there's just infinite possibilities out there. It's just, you know, like you said, so much of it is doing it from the heart, like you did for Stacy, or, you know, find what you're passionate about and go, that's the only way, right?
- [40:58]
C
Your authenticity is going to be your unique selling point. And that's it, you know, your confidence grows. It's not just going to happen as soon as you pick up a camera. And it never happened for me that way. You know, you grow into what you're doing. And even today, you know, I, you know, we're just back from Dubai, doing a private portrait there and creating something beautiful for a family and particularly of their new little baby that's. And it's on my Instagram, this little baby and this beautiful hydrangea flower for them, right, that they can put on the wall and it's just theirs, right? Everyone now has access to a camera via a phone, right? And there's so much rubbish on Instagram and sometimes I'm, like, scrolling through. I'm like, why am I even looking at this? You know, people, you know, saw something today. Oh, we're on TikTok and we're having our first date and we're going to let you follow our journey. Who cares?
- [42:07]
A
That makes me want to. No, no, no, no. Thank you. Yeah, exactly.
- [42:11]
C
In a way, today. You know, I always talk about the Kiss principle. I don't know if that's just Australian. Is Kiss. Keep it simple, stupid. And that's what I tell myself, right? The Kiss principle. The more you have to add to an image to make it better, the less creative it's going to be, in a way, you know, so, you know, authenticity is even more relevant these days, right, with so much, you know, everybody thinks they're a photographer and, you know, and so on. That's. That's your space to go through and create something that stands out. You know, when. When someone's scrolling and they stop and go, oh, my God, you know, and I do that, you know, and I follow, like, people who have beautiful gardens and. And other photographers and just colors that go together, for instance, that's nothing even relevant to what I would photograph. I'm like, oh my God, those colors together are so beautiful. And keep it in your mind, right? And take a screenshot, put it in a folder and it'll come back to you. Oh, yeah, what about that?
- [43:19]
D
Right?
- [43:20]
C
And you've got to keep growing and going forward instead of just staying still and doing the same thing all the time. And I don't want anyone who's listening to this to think, yeah, well, it's all right for her.
- [43:33]
D
Right.
- [43:34]
C
Because I built this over what, nearly 40 years.
- [43:38]
D
Right.
- [43:39]
C
And making mistakes. And mistakes are great.
- [43:45]
D
Right.
- [43:46]
C
Never be afraid to admit that you're green about something because green is where the energy is, right?
- [43:53]
A
Absolutely. It's where the fire is. It's where the need to grow it.
- [43:58]
C
Exactly.
- [43:59]
A
Speaking of mistakes, I mean, obviously we've talked a lot about the creative process and you said you did have help in the business end, but is there anything that you would do differently now or from back then or anything that you would highly recommend people to do if they wanted to get into more of the commercial space of selling, you know, their artwork?
- [44:21]
C
Yeah, I would say realize that you are the person, you're the creative person.
- [44:28]
D
Right.
- [44:29]
C
Don't listen to advice that you don't agree with. And there's a story, you know, that I can tell of a publisher. When we were first looking for, we had the greeting cards being very popular in New Zealand and Australia. And then we thought, we'll go over to the UK and talk to some publishers there. And we'd gone from. I was with Kel and I had a little box of laminated photos. Some of them were my portraits and some of them were the cabbages and so on. About 30 images, 10 by 8 size laminated. And we'd just come from a poster company, I can't remember what they're called now, who had laid out all of these images and said, we want all of them. These are fabulous. Right. We want to, you know, we want all of them. And then Kel and I, we were jet lagged and we had an argument on the train to the next appointment, which was in this kind of office where, you know, people sit in cubicles and there's glass walls in between so you can see everything. And this guy is sitting there and he's the only one in there and he's clearly not busy, but he kept us waiting for like half an hour. And we were sitting on these little chairs out in the reception area with old Magazines there and all this sort of thing. And I was like, oh, God, you know, you can feel your creativity just dissolving everywhere. So we finally get in there and he opens the box and he flips through the images, and then he says, look, if I can give you some advice, just photographing babies is never gonna work for you.
- [46:15]
D
Right?
- [46:16]
A
Aw, isn't that cute?
- [46:17]
C
Yeah, that's so adorable. You need to have maybe some pets and some adults and that sort of thing. And we'd just come from Athena. That's right, the poster company going, we want everything. This is awesome. So I was like, oh, okay. And we walked outside and just burst out laughing. It was just. Don't be authentic to yourself. What I'm trying to say is, if I had believed that then, and I was told that then, right. Don't bother doing this is from somebody else. Why would you want to do a calendar? There's so many baby calendars out there. And so I went and looked and I couldn't find any.
- [46:55]
D
Right.
- [46:56]
C
And so my battle through my career has been the subject matter being taken seriously.
- [47:03]
D
Right.
- [47:03]
C
I've only ever had one exhibition. One.
- [47:07]
A
Oh, wow.
- [47:09]
C
In the art world, babies are not. They're not very cool. You've got to be serious in the art world. And that's true. So everyone's got their cross to bear. But if you really believe in something, don't let anything stop you.
- [47:24]
A
Can you imagine if you had listened to that guy and, like, took that to heart and started questioning everything you did? I mean, it's like, wow.
- [47:31]
C
But I didn't, right? I just washed it off straight away because I was, you know, I was really into my creativity and believed in myself.
- [47:40]
D
Right?
- [47:40]
C
You have to believe in yourself. There's more, even more opportunities today to get your imagery out there and be noticed than there was way back when I was, you know, in the mid-90s, you know, talking about greeting cards and calendars. Today, you can get your images out there relatively easily. You can get noticed on Instagram and tell your own stories and, you know, but you just gotta be authentic and remember the kiss principle. Yeah.
- [48:12]
A
What did you say? Keep it simple, stupid.
- [48:14]
C
Yeah, that's me telling myself, not anybody else.
- [48:19]
A
Oh, no, trust me, I understand. Yeah, I haven't heard that before, so I'll have to.
- [48:23]
C
Maybe that's Australian.
- [48:25]
A
I wish I started telling myself that a long time ago, but whatever. But, yeah, it's. It is. I feel like that is some of the best advice that, you know, business advice. It's like, you know, what you know, as far as what you're creating, if you, you know, as far as business stuff goes, if that's not your jam, if you're someone who doesn't, you know, who isn't great at, you know, budgeting and accounting and setting your prices and all of that, that's when I think it's, you know, of course you have to find people who are good at that or learn a system that you know is going to work. But when it comes to your work and what you do. Although, Ann, what. So something we talk about on the podcast is that, you know, you have to have professional work. You have to at least know what you're doing.
- [49:11]
C
Absolutely. I had a woman, I feel like.
- [49:13]
A
There is part of that in there too.
- [49:15]
C
Yes. I had a woman called Julia who was a, you know, account keeper and she used to come in once a week and do the accounts.
- [49:25]
D
Right.
- [49:26]
C
And so if you can have somebody do that, right. You don't need to have a full time person. Right. She used to come once a week and do bookkeeping. And that was how I was able to do it. If I had drowned myself in all of that, I would have just lost a lot of my spontaneity and creativity. And it is doable. You know, you can have someone who just comes in once every two weeks or something and says, you know, you're going great, you're on check, but do not ask these people for creative advice. Never do that.
- [50:05]
D
Right.
- [50:06]
C
They are good at what they do and you stick to what you do. I hope I don't get all this hate mail now saying, well, it's all right for you.
- [50:14]
A
No, no, you will. I highly doubt you will. But there is, like, how do you feel about, like, did anyone ever give you feedback or did you request feedback on what you were doing? Because, you know, sometimes we get in our own heads so much and it's nice to have another set of eyes of another creative that we trust to really give feedback. Like, I remember when I was first starting and I thought what I was doing was so good and then someone, you know, made a comment about I was over softening the skin or whatever, and at first I was like, oh.
- [50:45]
C
My God, never, never, never, never, never read that sort of stuff.
- [50:50]
D
Right.
- [50:51]
C
I never Google myself. Never. Right? And you know, now that it's so easy for haters to come out and, oh, well, you know, this is not great, don't read that.
- [51:03]
D
Right.
- [51:03]
C
Because they're generally in the minority. But it's the only. If you can have 20 messages or comments on your image and 19 of them are great. You only can remember the bad one.
- [51:19]
D
Right.
- [51:19]
C
And then get all at 3am in the morning. Well, that's not true. And blah, blah, blah.
- [51:25]
A
I will say though, that one, that comment about softening skin, he was kind of right. So it did help me in the end. But like you said, take that on board. But there is, like you said, there are going to be haters. And there is a time and place if you know that you're working. And I feel like, Ann, you had, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you had at least a decade of clients purchasing your work who really loved it. So you knew you were onto something.
- [51:51]
C
Yes.
- [51:51]
A
Yeah. I think that that's a really important piece to it where if you're going to go commercial, you have to make sure that people are responding to your work.
- [51:58]
C
You're putting yourself out there. You know, it's tough, it's stressful, you know, and you feel vulnerable all the time.
- [52:06]
D
Right.
- [52:06]
C
But that's not negative. That's a good thing. You know, I would. It's exhausting. But I would go into every portrait session thinking, what can I do that's unique? You know, that's not going to make me feel bored that they're going to love and so on. And you know, you've got to. Scared is good. A little bit scared is good. Nervous is good. If you're not nervous in any way going into a shoot, then you know, you're not trying hard enough to scare yourself.
- [52:37]
A
Exactly. Exactly. Well, this has all been so great. And I know I mentioned this before, on July 27th in New York, you are doing a storytelling session and people can get tickets at Is it.
- [52:54]
C
Just go to my website, angettys.com and I'll click on events and it's there. It's $145, which I think is pretty good because we're keeping it small. So there'll be maximum of between 40 and 50 people.
- [53:09]
D
Right.
- [53:09]
C
And we're going to spend between 11 o' clock in the afternoon and 5. And it'll probably go longer because I, you know, tell stories, but people can also ask questions. And so if it's a small number of people, then we can all kind of get to know each other and go back and forth and, you know, and giving advice. You know, there's, you know, behind the stories, you know, like over 123 babies in the flower pots and all of that. There are lessons that I learned along the way.
- [53:39]
D
Right.
- [53:40]
C
In terms of how to approach it and how not to approach it and mistakes that I've made and so on. So it's not just me talking. It's a combination of the whole thing. I want somebody. If there's 40 to 50 people there, I just want even a couple of people to go away and look at themselves in the mirror and go, oh, yeah. Oh, my God.
- [54:05]
D
Right.
- [54:06]
C
Just thinking about looking in the mirror. I used to. When I started to charge more for my portraits, Right. Back in that time, I used to practice in the bathroom mirror saying, I charge, you know, two and a half thousand dollars, but it's. I practiced in the mirror.
- [54:24]
D
Right.
- [54:25]
C
And so you have to believe in yourself. So I want people to leave that. The storyteller session going. You know why? I never thought about it that way.
- [54:35]
D
Right.
- [54:35]
C
As opposed to. And no criticism.
- [54:39]
D
Right.
- [54:40]
C
As opposed to. I want to be a newborn photographer and I want to learn poses. That's good. That's good, too.
- [54:46]
D
Right.
- [54:47]
C
But that's not what I'm teaching. I want someone to walk away feeling so inspired. They're like, God damn it, I'm going to go to the nearest bar and have a martini with two olives.
- [54:58]
A
Yes.
- [54:59]
C
Cold.
- [55:00]
A
Love it.
- [55:00]
C
You know, that's. That's the spirit that I want to convey.
- [55:04]
A
I love that. And I'm on the event page right now on your website, and it's so nostalgic. Looking at some of these photos. This lily pad one with the purple flower and the story and the butterfly. I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is so nostalgic. It's so cool.
- [55:19]
C
Well, you have to get on a plane and come over.
- [55:22]
A
Oh, I wish I could.
- [55:23]
C
Yeah.
- [55:24]
A
You know, summertime with my children and no school and weddings and all. Not that I'm photographing, but.
- [55:30]
C
Oh, you're making excuses, Nikki. That's all right. I got it.
- [55:35]
A
No, that would be cool, though.
- [55:36]
C
Oh, I really want to inspire people after, you know, 40 years of doing what I'm doing and continuing to do.
- [55:44]
A
Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, this is great. So I always ask the same four questions at the end of each episode. Would you do that for me?
- [55:53]
C
Of course.
- [55:54]
A
Awesome. Okay, the first one is, what is something you can't live without when you're doing a photo shoot?
- [56:00]
C
Magic.
- [56:02]
A
I had a feeling you were going to say that.
- [56:05]
C
But you have to create the magic.
- [56:08]
A
Yep.
- [56:08]
C
Got to help it along.
- [56:09]
A
Yep, yep. I love it. All right, number two is, how do you spend your time when you're not working?
- [56:16]
C
I read a lot. Yeah. Reading. I walk a Lot. We're in New York and walking in Central Park. We're just a few blocks away from there because it's, you know, I don't know what New York would be like without Central park, but it's so four seasonal, you know, and I love that because I grew up when it was just the rainy season or the dry season. That was it. And so, yeah, I'm very inspired. I'd like to be out in nature.
- [56:44]
A
Yeah. All right, cool. Number three is. What is a photography specific product you would recommend to people?
- [56:52]
C
Your imagination, the camera. Anything photography specific is just a vehicle, right? It's just a vehicle. It's like the car you drive to go to the ballet. That thrills you, right? It's a vehicle. The camera's not going to do it for you. Your imagination is going to do it for you. It's what happens from the end of the lens to whatever you're photographing in the middle of that. So your imagination.
- [57:20]
A
Awesome, Fantastic.
- [57:22]
C
Now, number four is going to be the hardest.
- [57:24]
D
Right?
- [57:25]
A
Yeah, I know. That was. What would you tell people who are first starting out? And I feel like you covered a lot of this during this whole interview with such great advice. But if there's anything that you want.
- [57:35]
C
To add, please do tell your own story, right? That's. You've got to be authentic and to be unique. You have to believe in yourself, believe that you have your own story to tell and then go look for it and it'll reveal itself. It doesn't sort of happen all at once. It could be a tiny little thing.
- [57:56]
A
Definitely. Real quick, before I let you go, last year I was invited to speak at nzipp.
- [58:03]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [58:04]
A
And I got to go and it was incredible. And Richard, Richard Wood was like, ann is an honorary fellow of nzipp, which is very cool.
- [58:13]
C
Yes.
- [58:14]
A
So, yeah, I had such a great time.
- [58:17]
C
Where was it in.
- [58:18]
A
It was in Christchurch. And I didn't. I honestly didn't see any of the country because I left my family at home and, yeah, like, nine, eight, eight and a half days was my limit. But just the people and, and just experiencing the whole conference and hanging out with all the Kiwis was just.
- [58:34]
C
They're an interesting bunch of Kiwis, you.
- [58:37]
A
Know, like, we had so much fun. They took me to the pub and, you know, we had good food and we had a blast. It was amazing.
- [58:43]
C
Of course I did. They're very creative, you know, and, and even in sport, for instance, you know, the, the cricket team and, and the great sailors. The Kiwis you know, we used to joke we're the only people who aren't out, you know, sailing on the weekends and everything, but to keep the lights on in Auckland, you know.
- [59:02]
A
Well, sue, you know, Sue Bryce is one of my dearest, nearest and dearest friends and when she went and took, took the team and I was like eight and a half months pregnant with, with my second son Dre, so I couldn't go and I was like devastated. But anyways, I got to go. But one day I hope to go back with sue and just, you know.
- [59:20]
C
Yeah, absolutely. No, they're great. I hope to go back there for the, you know, if we could get this 30 year down in the garden thing out, go back there and meet some of the now adults, you know, who were little babies back then, so, you know, we could all go there together.
- [59:36]
A
Oh, that would be so fun. Be so fun. You and sue with your creative process, remind me so much of each other because she, she is very much like, she is such a creator, like through and through and just the way you describe your process and it's just, it's very similar. It's. Yeah, it's very cool.
- [59:55]
C
Yeah. Well, we seem to get on well, so we had a long conversation with you last week. Yeah, just tell her I said hi.
- [60:01]
A
I will. All right, thank you again, Ann and everyone. Don't forget, Saturday, July 27th in New York. Get your tickets@angettys.com and. Awesome. I hope we get to meet in person at some point.
- [60:14]
C
Yeah, I'm sure we will. Thanks, Nikki.
- [60:17]
A
You take care, Ann.
- [60:18]
C
Okay, take care too. Bye. Bye.
- [60:21]
B
Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System podcast. Your 5 star reviews really help us to continue what we do. So if you like listening, would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? I also encourage you to head over to soubriseducation.com where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1000 on demand educational videos on things like posing, lighting, styling, retouching, shooting, marketing, sales, business and self value. There's also the 90 day startup challenge, plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses. We have to do checklists for your business, lighting, PDFs, I mean truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once Again, that's Sue.
- [61:02]
A
BrightEducation.com Rock.