← The Portrait System Podcast
The Portrait System Podcast
Celebrity Photographer & Published Author Matthew Jordan Smith Shares How he Turned his Passion into Success (Re-Release)
00:47:53
Loading summary
Transcript157 lines
- [00:00]
Nikki Klosser
Hey there, it's Nikki Klosser and I want to let you know about an awesome free giveaway for people on our email list. If you haven't already, click the link in our podcast description or go to theportraitsystem.com signup to get on the list. If you sign up, you'll get a free posing 101 PDF to jumpstart things. It's an epic PDF, so you'll definitely want to get this. Also, just by being in our email community, you'll get deals, sales, and information about any of our upcoming events and activities. So head over to theportraitsystem.com signup and sign up. Today you're listening to the Portrait System podcast.
- [00:36]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Find out what you really love in photography, what you want to shoot, and focus on that. It's better for you to find out what you enjoy doing and base your entire career around that. And then those dream clients, they come and they find you.
- [00:55]
Nikki Klosser
Welcome to the Portrait System Podcast. I'm your host, Nikki Klosser, and this show is here to help you succeed in the world of photography and business. To help you learn to become financially free, doing what you love and so much more. With over 1 million downloads, countless photographers have taken what they've learned from both our episodes and from theportrasystem.com and they have grown their businesses, quit their day jobs, and are designing a life of their dreams. We keep it real and share stories about the ups and downs that come with running a photography business. You'll hear real life stories of how other photographers run their business and you'll learn actionable steps that you can take to reach your own goals. Thank you so much for being here. And let's get started. Today's guest is the incredible Matthew Jordan Smith. Matthew was so gracious to share with me his whole journey from working as an assistant all the way up to photographing Oprah, getting huge corporate sponsorships, and publishing several different books. Matthew is very open with what he shares and he's so wise and I was basically hanging on his every word during this interview. Not only do you get to hear his story today during this episode, but but you'll also get to watch him during an actual photo shoot and see his whole process if you watch the Portrait Masters conference online in September. Okay, enough of me talking because I just can't wait for you to listen to Matthew Jordan Smith. Here he is. Matthew Jordan Smith, thank you so much for being here with me today.
- [02:19]
Matthew Jordan Smith
It's great being here.
- [02:21]
Nikki Klosser
You know, this is the first time I've interviewed anyone from Japan. Well, you're not from Japan, but you're in Japan.
- [02:27]
Matthew Jordan Smith
I'm in Japan at the moment. Yeah.
- [02:29]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, very.
- [02:30]
Matthew Jordan Smith
It's great being here. You know, I do miss being in the States, but Japan's not a bad place to be at all, especially now.
- [02:36]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I can imagine. Well, we've met a couple times. I don't know if you remember. I mean, I feel like you. Probably after you speak, I'm sure you meet a million people, so I've had the pleasure of watching you speak several times. And you just have such a great way of presenting and teaching. So the fact that I get to not only interview you, but that you're going to be speaking or doing a presentation for the Portrait Masters Conference again this year, it's just, like, so happy just to have you part of all of this.
- [03:06]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Well, I gotta tell you, I am honored to come back again and speak to Portrait Masters. I can't wait. I think it's gonna be much better this year than in last year. I feel more comfortable. And, you know, I know everybody now, so I'm looking forward to this.
- [03:20]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's. It's gonna be amazing. You know, like, typically, the way that we do this podcast is. I know I am interviewing everyone who is speaking at the Portrait Masters, but what we normally do is kind of go through, like, just your journey and how you got to be where you are. I mean, what I know of you, and I think what most people know of you is you're a celebrity photographer. You are a fashion photographer. I mean, you photographed Oprah, Zendaya, Britney Spears, Samuel Jackson. Like, I mean, you have a book, Sepia Dreams. Is that the book where you photographed 50 black celebrities?
- [03:58]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yes.
- [03:59]
Nikki Klosser
I mean, like, that's like a dream. A dream for so many people. And. And I wonder if some people are thinking, like, how did he get there? You know, what did you do? So I'm wondering if I could just ask you a couple questions about your journey.
- [04:13]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yeah. Shoot. Yeah. Fill in the blanks. Absolutely. Let's rock.
- [04:16]
Nikki Klosser
Awesome. Awesome. Okay, so did you always do photography, or was this something, you know, that just you decided to do one day? You know, did you ever have a job prior to that or, you know, how did you start it all? I guess.
- [04:30]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Well, it's funny, for me, this is the only job I've ever had which is not really a job. It's just, like, my love. My father was into photography. It was, like, his hobby, and he's A minister or was a minister. He's retired now, but it was his hobby, and he taught me how to take pictures. It was a way of keeping me out of trouble. You know, I was born in New York and born in Brooklyn, and we moved down south when I was like, 7 years old, and I didn't fit in. You know, going from New York City, where it's like, you know, the world at your feet, and then you go to the South. At that time, it was just. It was weird. So I became like this very, like, you know, quiet kid, and my father gave me this camera to break me out of my shell. It's been that same thing for me ever since. So in a way, it was like my hobby at first. And then it turned from hobby into my career. I went to art school in Atlanta. Then from art school, I dropped out and moved to New York. I had this professor say in art school, like, the best photographers in the world are in New York or in there, in Europe. If you want to be in that class, go to one of those places. So I'm like, oh, you know, I was born in New York. Let me go back to New York. And that's what I did. And my career started there. I really think it was my. My real training happened in New York.
- [05:45]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, well, just to back up a second, like, what an amazing gift that your father gave to you, you know, a camera and just. Yeah. How cool in the fact that, you know, just how it all worked out with you going to the south and then the camera and then it. That's just. That's really cool. Now, did you always know you wanted to do fashion photography or, you know, is that just how it went when you, you know, being in New York and that's. That's what people do, you know?
- [06:12]
Matthew Jordan Smith
No, not at all. At first, you know, I want to do sports because that was like. I was into sports at that time, and I got to get to art school with that in mind. And, you know, just, I think meeting different people, like my professors, talking about different magazines for. At the first time, for me, hearing about Vogue, hearing about the European magazines, Italian Vogue, things like that, and being exposed to it. And for me, it was the first time when it clicked that, oh, I can tell my story. I can have my own point of view where, like, you know, doing sports, you're. You're documenting what's happening, and that's great. But to have the ability to. To really tell your story the way you see the world, that was intriguing for me. And it still is now.
- [07:00]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, that's such a good point. Because sports, there's not a whole lot of, I guess editing, you can be pretty creative or like, even some of, you know, maybe. I know you do some still motion stuff that is really, really cool. We'll talk about that. I want to ask you about that later, but. But, yeah, it seems like, you know, you just have so much more of the ability to be creative.
- [07:18]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Absolutely.
- [07:19]
Nikki Klosser
You know, with what you do.
- [07:20]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I. I love that about it. I. I love the fact that I can, you know, share my version of what beauty is. That intrigues me. I love that I can use it to. To tell my story.
- [07:33]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah.
- [07:34]
Matthew Jordan Smith
And in a way, it. It's. It's like a. For a photographer, every picture you take, it's like you're telling your story. You're documenting your life, even though you're photographing other people, but it's still your story. And I. I love that about it.
- [07:47]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah. Okay. So your book, Future American President. Obviously, there's a lot of storytelling in there, and I know people know you as a celebrity photographer, but you. It seems like you do a lot of, you know, it's not just about celebrities for you. It's not at all, you know, storytelling about the world. Can you tell us about your book, Future American President? I just think it's so cool.
- [08:08]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Thank you. Yeah. Like, you know, it's funny because for me, what really pulled me into photography in terms of a career was books. Reading about people like Gordon Parks and being inspired by them. And I really think it was one of Gordon Parks books that really made me want to be a photographer. And seeing somebody who looked like me doing photography at that time was special. Still is. And I felt like if a book could change my life in that way and give me this gift of photography and this gift of this life, why not use photography to do the same thing? So I want to go around the country, around America, and find 100 strangers, 100 kids, and ask their parents, can I photograph them as a future president? Sounds crazy now, thinking about that, but that's what I did. Went to every state, all 50, and just, you know, walked up to strangers and showed them my first two books, number one, and then said, I'd love to photograph your child and, you know, feature them as being a possible future president. Now, these kids, they had no idea about being a person at that time, but if the book was about planting the seed, because you never know, you know, nobody knew that, you know, a book would change my life. Maybe the gift of photography and telling a child that, oh, you can have the ability to be anything you want to be anything, even a president could maybe spark something in that child to change their course.
- [09:46]
Nikki Klosser
I have the goosebumps.
- [09:48]
Matthew Jordan Smith
The thing that's cool about photography, you know, it's kind of crazy, but when you think about even an adult having their picture taken is a special thing. So if you approach a child and make them like the star for the moment, that sticks. So hopefully it has. We'll see. I mean, we're still years away from knowing that, but hopefully it'll make a big impression and maybe we'll see 20 years from now what that'll lead to. 20, 30 years from now what that'll lead to.
- [10:20]
Nikki Klosser
I love that. I love that. One of the purposes is to, you know, really let these kids know, Listen, like, it's limitless to what you can do. I mean, like you said, planting that seed.
- [10:31]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Absolutely.
- [10:31]
Nikki Klosser
It just. I love it. I absolutely love it. Very, very cool. And. And, you know, obviously, it's so important to choose personal projects that mean something to you, and, you know, that, I think, helps you, like, infuse that passion and make it something really great. There is this other side, too, that maybe there's, like, a. Like, a marketing technique to it, too. Like, sue teaches, you know, all of the her students for at sbe, like, do some sort of campaign, like, something that. That feels important and special to you, and then also it's like a marketing tool as well.
- [11:07]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Absolutely.
- [11:08]
Nikki Klosser
Did you find that at all with your book, that it, you know, was. Was marketing as well for you?
- [11:13]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Absolutely. I mean, my. My first book, sleep your dreams, I had no idea that it would come out at a time when the world was, like, going through this crazy period. But my book came out One month before 9, 11.
- [11:26]
Nikki Klosser
Oh, wow.
- [11:27]
Matthew Jordan Smith
September 11, 2001. And when the whole world stopped. Well, at the time, like, especially like, you know, in America, New York came to a standstill. That book kept me going and kept me doing things like doing interviews and tv, even though the market had fallen apart. You know, there was nothing going on. But that book kept me out there. And also it got me seen beyond the world of photography. And I had no idea about sponsors at the time, but my. My book led to getting my first sponsorship with Microsoft. And at the time, I had no idea Microsoft ever sponsored photographers. But they came knocking, and that led to, you know, one thing leads to another leads to another, and now I'm sponsored by several companies. You know, Nikon. It's Just been a great ride. Ever since that book, I've been sponsored by some corporation, sometimes two or three. That's at the same time.
- [12:20]
Nikki Klosser
Wow. I didn't know that either that corporations sponsor photographers like that. I had no idea.
- [12:26]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yeah, I had no clue either until they called. And when they called, I thought it was a joke. You know, back then, people would call you, right? And I thought it was a friend playing a joke on me, but it was real. And like 2002 to, like 2008, they sponsored me, and that was a great ride. But the crazy thing about that is I met so many amazing people during that time that I'm still very good friends with.
- [12:52]
Nikki Klosser
That's awesome. What a nice little bonus on top of having, you know, a great sponsorship is to make lifelong friends.
- [12:59]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Definitely, definitely. And then getting back to the question about, you know, how personal projects lead to other great things in your career. It definitely leads to clients seeing you in a different way. People love seeing, like, your personal work. You know, you shoot a different head when you're shooting work for you versus shooting work that you think is going to get you work. And clients love seeing what you care about, and it shows in the work. You know, you shoot images like you're shooting for work for sure, to make money, but then you shoot a personal project, and that feels different, not only to you, but to the viewer. People connect with it in a special way, and that's what ultimately leads to, you know, really great work.
- [13:47]
Nikki Klosser
That makes so much sense. It really does. Because I think when people are hiring, you know, whether it's a photographer or a graphic designer or whatever, I feel like people, you know, you end up having a lifelong client based on that connection that you have. And if someone can relate to you or relate to your photos through the personal project or feel some sort of emotion, I feel like you're more likely to draw them in as a client.
- [14:11]
Matthew Jordan Smith
So.
- [14:11]
Nikki Klosser
That's a good point.
- [14:12]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Absolutely.
- [14:14]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah.
- [14:14]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yeah. No, shooting what you love leads to so much.
- [14:18]
Nikki Klosser
Mm. It's so true. Okay, so let's get back to that, too. When you were in school, you. You thought sports was your jam. And then you're like, wait a minute. Okay, I can't be that creat creative. So then how did you just decided you were going to try fashion from there?
- [14:32]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yeah, it really was. Like, one day, I remember this one professor said, you know, he was always talking at the time about this one magazine out of Europe called Zoom. And we would go to the magazine, we'd talk about different photographers, like Irving Pin and Steven Meisel and just all these great fashion photographers. And I was intrigued to see pictures, you know, in a different light, to see pictures that had more of almost a fantasy element to them. I loved it. I loved the portraits. I resonated with those images. We had some great people come to speak at our school as well, and that was wonderful to see their work and see it beyond just documenting work. And I think that really pulled me in, and it's what I love today so much, is just going out there and sharing, you know, all the influences in your life and putting that in your work. You know, I've traveled all the world, and the work that I do now is very different from the work I did, you know, when I was growing up in South Carolina.
- [15:31]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, yeah. Now, as far as, you know, okay. It sounds, like, so dreamy, like, traveling around the world and, like, doing photo shoots around the world and that sort of thing. Like. And so I've heard that when you're just starting out in fashion and all of that, oftentimes you don't make money in, like, the commercial fashion world. And a lot of people, you have to, like, work for pennies and do shoots for free. Like, is that true? I mean, is that what you experience? Or did you come right out with, like, this is my pricing. This is what I'm getting, you know, if I do a shoot?
- [16:04]
Matthew Jordan Smith
No, it wasn't like that for me. I started off as an assistant, so I worked first as a photo assistant to other big photographers. And I learned that big by being on the job, being on a set, and watching people who were doing what I want to do. So I wasn't pay a lot of money, but it paid decent, where I could make a living in New York City at the time and live on my own. But that was my training, my real training. And then my evolution was from assisting. I started getting asked to do jobs, and the first time it happened, I felt I wasn't ready. Now I've been shooting a lot on my own, like testing with different models, but I didn't feel I was ready yet. But a makeup artist went to a magazine, and he said, oh, there's this young photographer who's really, really good. You should see his work. And that editor called me and said, I want to see your portfolio. And I'm like, huh? What? You want to see my work? I didn't think I was ready, but I go see him. I show my portfolio at the time, and he's very quiet, going through my book. He goes through very fast. And in my head I'm like, oh, he hates it.
- [17:14]
Nikki Klosser
The things we tell ourselves. It's like, oh, God.
- [17:17]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yeah. I had all that going on in my head, like, okay, I knew I wasn't ready yet and why am I here? He goes through half my portfolio, closes the book and says, are you free next week? That was my first job.
- [17:33]
Nikki Klosser
Wow. You're like, yes, yes, I am.
- [17:35]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yeah. I'm like, yeah, I'm totally free. It was a slow evolution for me. It was like, you know, I'd first do a job here and there and then still assist. And then it got to the point where I was working so much I had to stop assisting altogether. And that's what happened. And it's been going on ever since now.
- [17:55]
Nikki Klosser
Wow. It's a little bit refreshing. I'm sure our listeners will probably be like, okay, if Matthew Jordan Smith was like, you know, struggling with self value around his work and he has come this far. It's like, it's like, I feel like no matter what success level you get to, I feel like there's always that feeling of, am I good enough? Or, you know, having to work through that.
- [18:16]
Matthew Jordan Smith
You. That never goes away.
- [18:18]
Nikki Klosser
That's what I was going to say. As you grow and become successful, do you ever still feel like that?
- [18:22]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Let me tell you, yeah, I think that imposter syndrome is real, number one. But I feel like as you keep pushing yourself to this new level, you always have that thing, you know, am I good enough? Will I make it? Am I there? Like, you never feel like you're really, really, you know, you'd be shooting Oprah one day and the next day like, oh, wow, when I get hired for another job, that thing is there. Or you do something, you go out on a limb and you take a chance on something and you wonder, will it work? When I did my first book, I had no idea it would get picked up, if it would sell, any of that. The book sold in three days to a publisher and it was a six figure deal. You know, I had never done a book before, but people around me were saying, oh, it's so hard to get a book deal. And it is, but that wasn't my story. You've got to believe in yourself and push yourself. Even when you feel like, you know you can't do it, you've got to talk yourself into it.
- [19:27]
Nikki Klosser
I love that you just said that. That didn't have to be your story. That wasn't my story. That really resonates now.
- [19:32]
Matthew Jordan Smith
I'm not saying it's easy because it was not easy. You know, I talked about, you know, assisting, then going from assisting to being a photographer. But I remember one when early on, as an assistant, and I was feeling down as, you know, having my own blues, and I said I was going to get a second job and was going to find a job working at a restaurant. So I go and interview, I get hired for this job, working as, you know, I forget what I was even hired for, but just working in a restaurant in New York City, and I get into a taxi to go to my first day of work, my first day of training. And on the taxi ride, the taxi driver says, oh, what do you do? I said, oh, you know, I'm a photo assistant, and I'm trained to be a photographer. But right now, I'm going to another job. Right now I'm going to work as a, you know, in a restaurant to make ends meet. He says, oh, wow, just like me. He says, I'm also a photographer. I'm like, really? He says. I said, how long you been doing a, you know, driving a taxi? He says, about 20 years.
- [20:33]
Nikki Klosser
Oh, you're like, no.
- [20:36]
Matthew Jordan Smith
And I'm like, what? So I told him, stop, right? I'm gonna get out right here. So he stopped the taxi, I got out, and I never went to that job. And I told myself right then and there, I'm gonna make it no matter what. It's just so weird that that taxi driver told me that story and told me that, you know, he's been driving a taxi for 20 years, but he's a photographer. I'm like, no, I can't be that guy. I can't be the person who works in a restaurant but wants to be a photographer. So I made my mind right then and there. No matter what, there is no plan B. You're going to make it. And that's when things changed.
- [21:16]
Nikki Klosser
Wow, what a profound experience. I mean, that's just incredible.
- [21:21]
Matthew Jordan Smith
I've got tons of them. Trust me.
- [21:24]
Nikki Klosser
Well, and like you said, it's kind of like when you make that decision that there is no plan B. Like, I remember I was a social worker prior to being a photographer, and I remember getting my first studio, and it was $1,100 a month. And, like, I mean, I only made $3,000 a month as a social worker, so it was like, oh, my God, I'm quitting my job and I'm getting a studio for $1,100 a month. But I remember in my head, there was no plan B. Like, this is what I was going to do. And come hell or high water, this was. I was going to make it work. And I did. You know, it's like, it's like, do you feel like there's a switch that flips and it's just like, you know you're going to make it.
- [22:00]
Matthew Jordan Smith
There definitely is. There definitely is. Even when everybody around you is saying no, no, no, or telling you the blues, like, you know, there are always those people around telling you how hard something is, that you can't do something. But they're not talking about you, they're talking about their story or what they believe. And I believe in those moments, that's when you step it up and you really gotta believe in yourself. I'm not saying that's easy all the time. Again, that imposter syndrome kicks in. But you've got to. That's when things change. When you believe in you, like really believe in you and don't think about quitting. You make it. You make things happen.
- [22:47]
Nikki Klosser
It's so significant and it's so powerful. And that's, you know, just in talking about, you know, sue and just what sue teaches and that is like the basis of it all. Like, you can be the best, you know, at lighting and posing, but if you are missing that self value piece.
- [23:04]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yes.
- [23:05]
Nikki Klosser
So it's so interesting to hear that, you know, that you went through this, the same journey, you know, the same sort of, you know, self value roller coaster.
- [23:15]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Oh, yeah. I think we're always still on a jury. Definitely. We're, we're. I'm still on that journey even now. I mean, you're, you're always in this evolution. I don't think you ever get the feeling like, oh, I've made it. I just think you just always evolving and, and, and growing. Yeah.
- [23:32]
Nikki Klosser
And I, I don't know, I think maybe if you do feel like you make it, is that when you like stop trying to grow and learn, it's like, oh, I've made, made it. I don't have to do anything else.
- [23:41]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yeah. I think when you are like resting on your laurels, that's when it's over. I think that, yeah, at that point, you know, you're like, you know, on your way. For me, it's about this joy of photography. Well, not even just joy of photography, the joy of creation. I love that. I love the process of creating something that I feel is beautiful. And hopefully I'll feel that way all my life pushing things to that next level.
- [24:07]
Nikki Klosser
You have some really, really amazing work there. Was one photo when I was looking through some of your work. It's called Two sides of Tyra. And it stopped me in my tracks. That photo of Tyra Banks where you have two different looks side by side, that just stopped me. I had to stare at it for a long time.
- [24:20]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Oh, I've shot Taria forever. I mean, literally, since I was a photo assistant, she was beginning her career, I was beginning my career. And we used to test all the time. Sometimes like 3 and 4 in the morning, literally. We'd, you know, hang out, end up testing, you know, all night long. And I love those days. We did a lot of great stuff together. And then, you know, it's funny to watch her career turn to what it is now, where she's going on from doing Top Model and all these other great things and hosting now all these other shows. It's cool to see that. But she's the same person that she was when I first met her years ago.
- [24:57]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah. Isn't that so great? When friends turn just so successful and you just so proud, you know, it's such a cool feeling to see.
- [25:04]
Matthew Jordan Smith
It is. It's great to see. I've always loved that.
- [25:07]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah. You know, I know people are going to want to know, how do you start photographing celebrities? Now? Obviously, with Tyra, you said it was more of a. It started as an assistant and, you know, you were friends. It was a friendship type thing. But if someone decides, like, I want to be a celebrity photographer, what do they do?
- [25:23]
Matthew Jordan Smith
That's a great question. The odd thing is I never pursued that. I never pursued shooting celebrities. What I wanted to do was just shoot beauty. Not even so much fashion, but beauty. That was my whole goal at the start of my career. And the process of shooting beauty led to me doing covers of magazines. And back then, all the covers were models. But then there was a transition where it changed from being models on the covers to being celebrities on the covers. And those clients started giving me jobs shooting celebrities. And that's how it all happened. Like, the first time I shot a celebrity was Halle Berry. And I was, of course, nervous because she's like the most beautiful woman in the world at the time.
- [26:07]
Nikki Klosser
Right. I remember People magazine that came out with her on that, on the COVID for that.
- [26:12]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Me too. Me too. Having her in studio that day was fantastic. She was just incredible. But doing beauty opened that door for me. And even today, I think if you want to shoot celebrity, you shouldn't have that goal of shooting celebrity. You should have the goal of making incredible portraits and Then that will hopefully lead somebody taking a chance on you and giving you a celebrity.
- [26:37]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, gotcha.
- [26:38]
Matthew Jordan Smith
And to be honest, the funny thing is, even today I enjoy shooting the beauty more than I love shooting celebrity. It's more creative, but celebrity leads to a lot of different things.
- [26:47]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. And I like what you said. Like just focus on creating great, beautiful portraits.
- [26:54]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yeah.
- [26:55]
Nikki Klosser
In the end, that's what it's all about. No one's going to hire you for a celebrity if your work isn't up to par.
- [27:00]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Absolutely. I think you can't have that goal of, oh, I want to shoot celebrities, because it won't sustain you. It won't. It won't feed your soul. It's great in terms of press and getting publicity and all that stuff. And it may seem glamorous. It's not really. It's you doing the work that you love and then if it's great, people will come to you. I've always believed that. I still believe that. Make great work and then that great client that you want, they come to you. Yeah.
- [27:37]
Nikki Klosser
Matthew, what is your like, if there is one, what is your typical client? Obviously you've got different facets of what you do. So I'm curious what your like, everyday work looks like.
- [27:49]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Well, it's definitely still revolves around beauty, even. Even now. It revolves around beauty. It always has. It's been the thing that's been the most consistent thing in my career. And it's funny because things do go through evolution. There's one point where I did a lot of movie posters. Then there's a point where I was doing a lot hair care and beauty type work. Now I'm in a new market in Japan and that's the market I'm going after, the beauty and hair care market, because that's a very lucrative market. Unlike fashion, it's not the same window of, you know, a season where something's in and it's out. With beauty, it can be timeless. You can have that picture in your book for a long, long time. And you can get paid for an image for a long, long time. I did a shoot for big brands and this is over 12 years ago. And two months ago, my agent got a call, an email about reusing that image for a substantial amount of money to reuse those images again, which is great for me and for the model.
- [28:53]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, that's okay. So this is where I get. I don't know anything about like the commercial copyright use. Like you have an agent, you know. At what point did you decide like, okay, I'm ready for an agent. And then you have someone who kind of. What's the word I'm looking for when someone represents you. Yeah. Representing you and like, helping you, you know, get what you should be getting for reusing those images. Like, at what point do you decide it's time to get an agent?
- [29:21]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Oh, that's a good point. Now, the whole industry has changed a lot today. I don't think you have to have an agent. But, you know, I've been shooting for a long time, and it was definitely a plus when I began my career. My first agent approached me, as a matter of fact, so my first agent approached me, and that was my agent fight by the first three years of my career. And then I went shopping for an agent, and he's still my agent today, so I've had him for a very long time. But I think you get an agent when you are so busy, when you can't do all your own work. And by that I mean you can't do all your own marketing and push yourself out to agencies. And that was the. The plus for me having an agent and still is, even though, you know, he's in New York still and I'm in Japan. I'm in a new market now, but I'm thinking about looking for an agent in Japan. And I say that now because I'm doing some different type of work here. And all my focus has been on that work that's actually outside of the world of photography, but hopefully it will lead to things that are bigger than I've ever done before.
- [30:28]
Nikki Klosser
Wow. Yeah. And it almost kind of reminds me of anything when outsourcing. Outsourcing, the things that you can't do are the things that aren't your superpower. Like, it almost seems like if you're going to be in the commercial fashion, beauty world, that having an agent might be one of those things that you outsource and maybe spend the extra money on. Because in the end, if you get a good one, it could really elevate you, like, and get you more work. Is that.
- [30:53]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Oh, no, absolutely.
- [30:54]
Nikki Klosser
Okay.
- [30:54]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Absolutely. Having an agent. Now, an agent doesn't get you work per se. They do help you get better work and they're better at negotiating for you in terms of rights usage. You know, for commercial shoots, you're paid for the photo shoot, and then you're paid for the usage on those images, you know, based on, you know, per year or, you know, it depends on the ad. And it's a different world for sure. But It's a tricky world. So knowing that is a big difference. I had a friend who's here in Japan and he was up for a job and he was going to give the job away. And I'm like, no, no, no, you don't do that. So I gave him some tips on what to do, and to this day he's like, okay, I owe you dinner for the next year. Because just knowing how to go in and represent yourself, I think that's important also how to represent yourself and how to negotiate on jobs so you're not abused, used, how you get, you know, a rate. So somebody uses an image for one year or two years, you're compensated for that because those things can be very lucrative. But you got, you gotta learn that.
- [32:04]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, that just seems like it's something you really, you know, to be really smart about it, like you. To really educate yourself if that's the route you're gonna go. Because like you said, I wouldn't have even thought, like, oh, they could only use my images for a certain amount of time and then they're gonna have to repay me again. That just wouldn't like royalty stuff. It just wouldn't have even crossed my mind.
- [32:21]
Matthew Jordan Smith
It's like, no, that's, that's the whole world of advertising. Yeah, yeah, it's extremely important. You know, the, the usage rights could be your retirement, literally. That's all very important stuff. I think you, you've got to have that on the commercial world now, that's a different world altogether. It's not like every day, but in terms of, like, you know, a product or a brand, those things are very real. Like, I've done a lot of. It's funny because those jobs, you don't show that work. Like, I don't put that work in my portfolio or my website because it's kind of boring work. But it pays very, very well. And nobody will ever know that I do that work. Like, you know, you do a box cover for Pantene, something like that, your name's not on that. Nobody knows you, you've done that work. But, you know, you quietly sit back and, and smile at that type of work. The other great thing that happens in photography is you get all these other types of jobs that you would never imagine. Like, I've gotten some weird. At least once a year I get some weird job out the blue that just comes up now. I get a lot of these private celebrity jobs, and a lot of them, you can't say who you're shooting or what you're shooting. But those are very cool jobs. Now that I live in Japan, everybody comes here, and when they come here, they want to shoot. So that's another weird but crazy thing that's happened. So I've been here. In some ways, I've met more celebrities than I did when I was living in California.
- [33:50]
Nikki Klosser
Wow. Interesting. I wouldn't think of Japan necessarily as a place where celebrities want to go, but now that I think about it, it just seems like Japan has so much to offer and there's such an interesting fashion scene there. It seems.
- [34:01]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Let me tell you, everybody comes here. Everybody. If there's a new movie out, Japan's on that press junket list. Like, they'll maybe there's a big movie. They'll go to Paris, they'll go to Japan. And when they're here, you know what they're gonna do?
- [34:20]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah.
- [34:20]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Shoot for press or shoot something. And it's just this wonderful thing that happens. The music scene here is amazing. The fashion scenes, incredible. Yeah. I wish I'd moved here like 10 years earlier, actually.
- [34:33]
Nikki Klosser
Wow. No kidding. So for the portrait masters, I'm really excited because you're doing your live shoot for us in Japan, right? In Tokyo.
- [34:42]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yes, in Tokyo. In Tokyo.
- [34:45]
Nikki Klosser
So excited.
- [34:47]
Matthew Jordan Smith
It's gonna be very cool. It's gonna be very, very cool. I think anybody should definitely come and check this out because it'll be very different than what people have seen in the past.
- [34:56]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, yeah. And. And, you know, I try to think of all these silver linings from this pandemic situation. Obviously, we can't do the conference in person, but if we were doing it in person, we wouldn't get to see you do a shoot in Tokyo. Like, absolutely no silver lining. I mean, it's like trying to find the positives with. Within a horrible situation. So I. Yeah. Oh, I'm so excited, Matthew, to watch. Just.
- [35:19]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Thank you.
- [35:20]
Nikki Klosser
Your process and how you, you know, just how you do it. It's gonna be so cool.
- [35:26]
Matthew Jordan Smith
No, I gotta thank sue for that. Cause the idea was just so amazing to actually, you know, show a shoot the way it happens in reality and then turn that into this class. I mean, I love that. I think when she first came with that idea and told me about it and told all of us about that, I was like, oh, wow. This is actually really cool. And maybe in some ways better than, you know, being on stage in reality and talking about what you're doing. People can actually see the whole process and they can see it from Japan. That's cool.
- [35:57]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah. So cool. People Love that. I think people really love seeing the actual thing happen. I mean, it's amazing. Just like when people watch sue shoot, they just want to be a fly on the wall and see her do it sometimes.
- [36:09]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yeah, that's very true.
- [36:11]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah. So it's just. I'm excited. I can't wait.
- [36:13]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yeah, it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be fun. I can't wait for everyone to see it. You know, we had a ball, we had an amazing time and I won't spill any beans yet on this, but you've got to see it.
- [36:25]
Nikki Klosser
You just gotta see it. No, don't spill the beans because it's gonna be. Not yet.
- [36:30]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Not yet.
- [36:31]
Nikki Klosser
But you are on September 23rd on day three.
- [36:35]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yes, day three.
- [36:36]
Nikki Klosser
Okay, cool. It's gonna be such a fun three days. I just am like, I get to help host it with Sue. Ah, yeah. So I'll get to, you know, we'll be hosting live. I know everyone had to pre record everything just to, you know, get everything done and have it all edited and ready to go.
- [36:54]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yes.
- [36:54]
Nikki Klosser
To an online conference. It's such a different. It's just. It's the first time we've ever done this, but I feel like they have. The process is so it's like a well oiled machine already. It's really cool.
- [37:03]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Well, you guys do it right And I'm really excited about the whole process and can't wait till the 23rd of September.
- [37:09]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah. Oh, me too. Me too. Well, I really appreciate you chatting with me today and I actually have a couple more questions I always ask at the end of each episode. I ask the same few questions. I'm wondering if I could ask you our like fire round sort of thing.
- [37:24]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Ask me anything.
- [37:26]
Nikki Klosser
What is something you can't live without when you're doing a photo shoot?
- [37:29]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Oh, that's easy for me. Music, music, music, music. It is the end all, be all. I've got to have it. Back in the day I used to carry CDs around to shoot. Now, you know, we all have our, you know, our music in other ways, but I have to have it. It's funny. So I have a shoot that I'm about to do soon and in Japan there's a Tower Records here, believe it or not. So yesterday I was in Tower Records buying music because it's very different type of music that I want to have for this photo shoot. So I found it in Tower Records. I'm like, oh wow. So you know, I haven't bought a CD in, in a Decade. But I bought one yesterday, and that was kind of cool. I have to have. Have music on every shoot.
- [38:15]
Nikki Klosser
That is cool. Awesome. All right, number two, how do you spend your time when you're not working?
- [38:22]
Matthew Jordan Smith
That's funny because. Because I don't see photography as work. I do it all the time. Well, I'm living here in Japan, so I'm studying Japanese. That's one thing I'm doing all the time. But I also have a really big project, which is the biggest project of my life. So all free time is tied up in that I'm working on a project where I'm. Well, I can say it now, because I'm debuting this project September 1st. I've been working on what I believe is a new art form, and it's been a long time coming, and I'll debut it on September 1st in Kyoto for the first time.
- [39:00]
Nikki Klosser
Ooh, I'm so intrigued.
- [39:02]
Matthew Jordan Smith
It's exciting. It's scary. You know, it's definitely that whole thing we talked about earlier about the imposter syndrome. Is it good enough? Is it. Is it real? But this is cool. It's actually not photography. It's outside the world of photography, but inspired from, you know, like, everything else in my life is inspired by photography. So this, too, is that. But I'll debut this new. This new work, what I call this new art form, on September 1st, and I'm very excited about that.
- [39:29]
Nikki Klosser
Oh, awesome. I'm going to mark my calendar so I can make sure to look at, you know, whatever you post. So for that and the portrait masters, lots of fun, fun stuff coming up for you.
- [39:38]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed.
- [39:40]
Nikki Klosser
Okay, number three is. What's your favorite inspirational quote?
- [39:45]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Oh, my God. I'm always saying, and this is my quote, always dream big. I'm always saying when I end anything but a famous inspirational quote. Oh, my God. Okay, this is from the Alchemist, which is one of my favorite books. There's only one thing that makes a dream impossible to achieve. The fear of failure.
- [40:09]
Nikki Klosser
It's powerful, and it goes back to what you were saying before.
- [40:12]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yeah, it totally hits that for sure. I think that it's the fear of failure that stops so many people from even trying. You know, you hear all the time, oh, but somebody said this, somebody said that. And it has nothing to do with you and your goals or your dreams. You know, I love the sound of that. Now, there is only one thing that makes a dream impossible to achieve. The fear of failure. People have this fear, and it stifles them from doing anything. No, Fear is in all of us. I did an interview years ago with Gordon Parks before he passed away. He was like my hero in many ways. And he told me that, you know, I've had a lot of fear in my life, but I've never let fear stop me from doing something. And I think about that all the time. Even what I'm doing now, this new art form, that's scary to say that. I mean, it can sound presumptuous, you know, a new art form. If you think about an art form, like photography is an art form, cinematography is an art form. So to say that I've discovered a new art form, that's kind of bold. But that's what I'm doing and that's what I'm putting out there for the first time. And that's exciting. Am I scared about that? Do I have fear? Absolutely. But I'm not going to let that stop me because who knows what's on the other side?
- [41:44]
Nikki Klosser
Who knows what's on the other side? Exactly, exactly. I mean, I feel like that might be the difference between people who take the chances and don't, or they. You just have to, like, muscle through that fear.
- [41:55]
Matthew Jordan Smith
That's true. That's very true. I'm definitely not scared to take a chance. I've been doing that all my life. I mean, moving from, you know, the south to New York to Chance. People have fear about moving anywhere. I moved to LA for a while. That was fearful for sure. Scary for sure. And also moving from, you know, America to Japan, I was fearful would I lose all my work? Why ever work again? That's all the fear that's in my head. Nothing changed. As a matter of fact, you know, I work more now in Japan than I did in the States.
- [42:30]
Nikki Klosser
And you can still have the fear and still do it anyway.
- [42:34]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Yes, absolutely. You're going to have the fear.
- [42:36]
Nikki Klosser
Oh, yeah. I've taken a lot of risks in my life and I wonder, does anyone ever tell you, like, you're lucky for your life or for the things you do?
- [42:43]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Oh, yeah, you hear that all the time. And I just want to say, oh, yeah, you want to live my life to see what that. What lucky feels like?
- [42:52]
Nikki Klosser
No, exactly. I've had people say that you're so lucky. And I'm like, ah, you know, I don't know that it's luck, but, you know, we. I mean, I'm sure some, you know, opportunities that have been afforded to me, you know, for sure has been luck. But, man, you clearly have earned your success.
- [43:09]
Matthew Jordan Smith
I've Been blessed. I've been blessed. It has not been easy.
- [43:12]
Nikki Klosser
You didn't let the fear stop you.
- [43:14]
Matthew Jordan Smith
You can't. You can't let fear stifle you from doing something or trying. And if you fail, so what? I mean, it's part of the journey of you failing. But you don't really fail until you stop. Maybe you'll fail the first or second or third time. So what? You keep trying it, and as you do, you get better. You learn what not to do, what to do, and then you do it differently. You don't really fail until you stop trying.
- [43:42]
Nikki Klosser
Absolutely. You're a wise man, Matthew.
- [43:44]
Matthew Jordan Smith
I am trying to be. You know, I hope I've learned something all these years.
- [43:48]
Nikki Klosser
You sure are. So, okay, one more question. Actually, two more questions, but for this one, what would you say to people who are just starting out?
- [43:57]
Matthew Jordan Smith
I love that question. If you're just starting out in photography, I would say, number one, to find out what you really enjoy and just shoot that. Now, we always hear people say, shoot what you love, but really, what does that mean? No, here I'm living in Japan, and one thing I've learned is that in America, we say, I'm guilty of this. Oh, I love this. I love that. And it kind of softens the word love when really you. You like this or you like that. The difference in like and love is huge. Like, in Japan, there are different words there because there are different levels of love, and there are different words for those levels of love. Find out what you really love in photography, what you want to shoot, and focus on that. I wish somebody had told me that at the beginning of my career, because I was thinking, like. Like, oh, I'm going to shoot things that I think a client wants to see. And that's a big mistake because you can never. You can never really figure out what somebody wants. It's better for you to find out what you enjoy doing and base your entire career around that. And then those dream clients, they come and they find you.
- [45:18]
Nikki Klosser
I love that. I absolutely love that. And it's true. And. And it almost seems like if you can just start with that, just focusing on what you love, shooting what you love, you know, it. You're in good shape.
- [45:32]
Matthew Jordan Smith
I mean, absolutely. It does so much for you. Number one, it helps you develop your own style. And that style is not anything that's fake because it's authentically you. I mean, you can't fake what you love. It's what you love. And when you focus on that, your work becomes like, this this thumbprint, people start seeing it, they see your work and they're like, oh, wow, that feels inspirational. Or that feels sexy, or that feels, you know, blue. Whatever it is, you know, people find out what you enjoy doing and then they identify with it and then they hire you and hopefully that will lead to you having not just a job, but. But having a career.
- [46:16]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, exactly. Like you said, a career. And that's really what it is. And I love hearing you say that. You just love what you do. You know, it doesn't feel like work.
- [46:25]
Matthew Jordan Smith
I absolutely do. It's not for me, you know, because if it was work, I'd be underpaid because I work all the time. I mean, I'm up all the time working on my craft and I love it. You know, I don't view it as work. I don't view it as, oh, you know, I got this job today, I gotta work. I don't view it that way. If I wasn't getting paid to create images, I'd still be doing it. I love it that much.
- [46:56]
Nikki Klosser
That's awesome. Well, I'm so excited to see your next project and to watch you on the Portrait Masters conference and it's really exciting. Hey, if people want to find you online, where can they find you? You?
- [47:07]
Matthew Jordan Smith
I'm on Instagram. That's probably the best way. Under Matthew Jordan Smith and my website, matthewjordansmith.com.
- [47:14]
Nikki Klosser
Okay, perfect. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for taking time out. I know it's late there in, in Japan and just taking time out of your busy schedule to chat with me. It really, really was an honor. I loved talking with you. This has just been so great. So thank you.
- [47:28]
Matthew Jordan Smith
Likewise. No, you, you're great. You're great. Thank you so much for making this easy.
- [47:32]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, thanks again. Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System podcast. Your 5 star reviews really help us to continue what we do. So if you like listening, would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? I also encourage you to head over to subriceeducation.com where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1000 on demand educational videos on things like posing, lighting, styling, retouching, shooting, marketing, sales, business and self value. There's also the 90 day startup challenge, plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses. We have to do checklists for your business, lighting, PDFs, I mean, truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once Again, that's Sue briceducation.com.