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The Portrait System Podcast
Photography Pricing & Marketing: Stop Chasing Leads and Build Real Profit (Vanessa Joy)
00:53:28
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- [00:00]
A
Hey there, it's Nikki Klosser and I want to let you know about an awesome free giveaway for people on our email list. If you haven't already, click the link in our podcast description or go to theportraitsystem.com signup to get on the list. If you sign up, you'll get a free posing 101 PDF to jumpstart things. It's an epic PDF, so you'll definitely want to get this. Also, just by being in our email community, you'll get deals, sales, and information about any of our upcoming events and activities. So head over to theportraitsystem.com signup and and sign up Today. You're listening to the Portrait System podcast.
- [00:35]
B
Relationship building is difficult. It's annoying. You feel like, you know, everybody else has their clique and things like that, but it's just. Forget business, it's just humanity. You're gonna hang out with the people that you want to be around, and naturally they're the people that you're going to refer.
- [00:55]
A
Welcome to the Portrait System podcast. I'm your host, Nikki Klosser, and this show is here to help you succeed in the world of photograph business. To help you learn to become financially free, doing what you love and so much more. With over 1 million downloads, countless photographers have taken what they've learned from both our episodes and from theportraitsystem.com and they have grown their businesses, quit their day jobs, and are designing a life of their dreams. We keep it real and share stories about the ups and downs that come with running a photography business. You'll hear real life stories of how other photographers run their business and you'll learn actionable steps that you can take to reach your own goals. Thank you so much for being here. And let's get started. Most photographers don't fail because they're bad at photography. They fail because of pricing and marketing. I'm Nikki Klosser and my guest this episode on the Portrait System podcast is Vanessa Joy. Vanessa has been running a successful photography business for nearly 20 years, and she does not sugarcoat what it takes to keep your business thriving and sustainable. We talk about pricing for success, marketing strategies that still work today, and and things you really should know before you hire an associate photographer. There are lots of golden nuggets in this episode, so if you're serious about your photography business and you wanna save the trial and error, this is the episode you don't wanna miss. All right, let's get started with Vanessa Joy. Hi, Vanessa. Welcome to the portrait system. How you doing?
- [02:20]
B
Hello.
- [02:21]
A
Hello.
- [02:22]
B
How are you? Thanks for having me here.
- [02:24]
A
Yeah, yeah. I feel like it's been a long time coming.
- [02:27]
B
Yeah, it really has. I feel like we actually talked about this maybe two years ago once and then never.
- [02:34]
A
I know, I know. And before we start, I want people to know that for those listeners who know of you, Vanessa Joy, the educator, I really want to make it clear that you have a business that a photography business that is still thriving, still running, has been for what, over 20 years?
- [02:55]
B
My own. I mean, I've been doing photography for 28. I started my business in 2008.
- [03:01]
A
Okay.
- [03:01]
B
So whatever math that is, it's something like 18 years, I think.
- [03:05]
A
Yep, yep. Okay. So I don't want people to think that all you do is the education piece. You. While you're very good at that.
- [03:11]
B
I appreciate that.
- [03:12]
A
Yeah. While you're very good at that, you also have a very successful photography studio that is still relevant and active. And so everything that you're teaching is out of all of this experience currently as well. So.
- [03:24]
B
Currently and relevant. So I do weddings, portraits, and then corporate and a little bit of sports, you know, so. And that's, you know, all people that pay me to hold my camera and to take pictures.
- [03:36]
A
Got it. Okay. All right. So 2008, you started your business.
- [03:42]
B
Were you.
- [03:42]
A
Did you go to school for photography or was it something that just happened?
- [03:48]
B
I did go to school. I have a photography degree and pretty useless in general. Like, I would. I hope my kids don't go to college. Yeah, it's just. It's not what you need in order to survive as a photographer, at least. You know, the program that I went through, they didn't teach me how to run a business.
- [04:06]
A
Right.
- [04:06]
B
And they taught me artful things, which is lovely. You know, I do need the artful, creative things in order to take pictures, but. But talent alone is not going to make you successful, typically.
- [04:20]
A
You're not the first person to say that either. I've had some extremely successful photographers on here who said the same thing. I got this degree, I paid all this money, and I came out of college, university, whatever, going like, okay, but I don't even know how to run a business now. I didn't go to school photography. Yeah, totally. So I have a master's in social work, so it's interesting to hear that. Yeah. But. Okay, so you came out of it. You didn't know how to run a business. Then how did you survive? I guess.
- [04:56]
B
Well, I did what most photographers do not do. When I was actually still in college, I worked for another photography studio for five years part time. And I learned, really mentored under this photographer. And I saw how he ran his back end. I saw how the editing was, how it's funny, the place where he would meet with clients for consultations was just like a wall away from where I would sit editing and doing all the other work. So I would hear all his consultations and then I was able to really easily learn from that. And you know, along with everything else that you learn when you're so close to a business.
- [05:39]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And that's something we've talked about before is, I mean, you don't necessarily have to go work for someone for five years, but the education that you get, it's just invaluable. Sometimes it takes doing what you don't necessarily like, something you might be overqualified for or whatever, just to get a foot in the door or to really get that learning. And I mean now in 2008, I don't think there was quite as much photography education online like how there is now. I mean, it was a different ballgame back then.
- [06:12]
B
Instagram didn't exist.
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A
No.
- [06:14]
B
Facebook just started.
- [06:15]
A
I think it was still MySpace. Do you remember, were you on MySpace? Yeah, way back in the day. That's all there was. So it's even when I. Because 2012 is when I started my business and there was Facebook. And it's funny because that's how I ended up deciding I was gonna start a photography career. I've always loved photography, but I was watching a friend of mine on Facebook and I was watching her grow her business and I was like, huh, if she can do it, I wonder if I can do it. Like, it's just, it's just so funny. But at the time it was really just like YouTube and Creative Live, like that was another thing which is now non existent. But nowadays there is just so much access to different information. So it's nice. Like the portrait system, like your education, all of it. Yeah, yeah.
- [07:04]
B
Well, even just inspiration, right. Because we get to visually look at so many different types of photography and see what's out there, see what's trending, all those things. I mean, back then the only time you got to see photography was you would go to a show like wpbi or you would go to some local photography meetup and somebody printed something and you were like, ooh, right, right. And that was it.
- [07:30]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's been quite an evolution with education and I think it's nice too Because I wonder if you feel the same way where. I love being a photographer. I've been doing it now for 14 years, and I love doing client shoots, but sometimes you get, like, a little bored. So it's nice to have that option to have a dual business where it's part education, part photography. So I guess at what point did you get into education?
- [08:00]
B
I got into education. So the other thing is I have a bachelor's degree in teaching, so I used to be a teacher.
- [08:08]
A
Okay, I taught.
- [08:09]
B
I taught Spanish. And I had actually gone. It may. It may have been WPBI or it may have been another show, but I went to see a photographer that I simply adored and couldn't wait to learn from. And I was so excited. And I went and still love this. You know, the photographer, like, he was great, but he didn't know how to teach a concept. And I got nothing out of the talk. We'll just say people weren't vetted so much then as they are now. But I remember thinking, like, well, I can do this. Like, I know how to teach a concept. I know how to teach photography. At the time, I wasn't teaching business, but I started with a local photography group that met in the back of a diner, and that is where I taught for the first time. And then it was just a snowball from there, teaching on all the main stages in creative live. And that was 16 years ago. So it was quite a long time I've been teaching.
- [09:04]
A
Okay, so it sounds like now weddings are mostly, you know, your focus, but do you shoot any? You shoot other genres too, right?
- [09:13]
B
I do. It's actually only 40% weddings, you know, weddings and engagements, another 10 to 20%. It's all the families, newborns, maternity that you will never see on my website because I don't advertise it. It's only on the back end. And then a lot of corporate, so I shoot for resorts and I travel and photograph, like, their marketing campaigns and events. Like, next week I will be photographing Tournament of Champions, which is a golf tournament in Lake Nona, Florida. So I do a lot of different things and that's not even including the content and photography I do for, like, Canon or Profoto or any of those companies.
- [09:56]
A
So it's interesting because if you don't market those on your website or social media, how are you getting those jobs for the corporate and the family and that sort of thing?
- [10:07]
B
Yeah, it's relationships, so corporate relationships. I do have a corporate website that will, like, SEO, will grab headshots and things like that. But it's really relationships. Not just ones that I've made with, you know, other people in the industry that get me jobs, but the relationships I have with my own clients.
- [10:26]
A
Okay.
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B
So the relationships with them that I turn them into legacy clients. Because weddings are the beginning. Right. That's the beginning of their photography needs. So I will purposefully market to them the ones that I like, and then. Yeah. The ones that I loved and then talk to them and keep up with them and offer those things.
- [10:48]
A
I love that. That's something that I. People are probably sick of hearing that I'm always saying how important relationship building is. And something I think people forget is that. Or maybe just don't know, is that past clients are like some of the easiest clients to market to. They already know, like, and trust you. And like you said with weddings, I mean, you've got guests, you've got the whole wedding party. Maybe they need headshots. Maybe one of them is going to have a baby soon. Maybe someone's looking for family photos. Like, there are so many people you can market to within a wedding. It's incredible.
- [11:24]
B
It is. And, you know, I understand. I understand why relationship building is difficult. It's annoying. You feel like, you know, everybody else has their clique and things like that, but it's just. Forget business. It's just humanity. You're gonna hang out with the people that you want to be around, and naturally, they're the people that you're going to refer. So you just have to find your people.
- [11:49]
A
Yeah. So, okay, so for someone who doesn't do weddings, let's talk a little bit about marketing, because I know you just mentioned that SEO picks up your headshot type thing, but let's take weddings off the table. What is your favorite way to market or to teach people how to market?
- [12:10]
B
I teach people that there's no magic bullet. Everyone looks for the magic bullet when it comes to marketing. And everybody's like, I need more leads. Which, ironically, is not usually the answer to their problem, because their goal is not actually more leads, more jobs, it's more money. Right. So if you can figure out how to maximize your profit, you really only need half the leads you think you need.
- [12:31]
A
Amen. Yes.
- [12:32]
B
So then your marketing becomes very different. And it doesn't have to be so stressful, but it does have to be, in my opinion, a wide net. You need to do different things. Yes. There's room for social media. Yes. There's space for ads. Yes. Networking. Yes. Working with your local businesses and relationship building. There's a lot of it. You just have to. To understand that it's actually less important to market yourself and more important to be ready to be seen and profitable.
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A
Okay, tell us a little bit more than that. Ready to be seen and be profitable.
- [13:05]
B
Let's pretend there's two different photographers. One photographer did a really good job with their branding, made sure that their profit is on point. They know how to sell, they know how to close. They know how to raise the average order value and lifetime value of a client. Client. Right. You've got that photographer right there. Then you've got the other photographer that you know isn't that great at closing their website. Their social media is kind of sloppy. They might actually be the more talented photographer, but they're not good at running a business. They don't maximize their profit. You give each of those photographers 10 leads. 70, 80% of them aren't even going to close with photographer B because of how they're showing up and giving a first impression. And then even the ones that do close are worth a lot less. Meanwhile, 80% of those leads are going to close with photographer A and then they will end up being more profitable overall. So same kind of thing, but very different outcomes.
- [14:10]
A
Yes. And we've said this before, where you can be the best photographer in the world, you can be the most deserving, you can be the nicest person, but if you are not showing up how you need to, it's just not. It just doesn't matter.
- [14:25]
B
And the truth is you'll need more leads. Right? Because if you're only 20% of them only end up through your door and for not as much money, then you know what you need? What? Five times more leads than the other photographer. And that's why photographers stress out thinking they need more leads.
- [14:40]
A
Oh, it's just. It's so much harder that way. So much harder.
- [14:44]
B
It is. It is.
- [14:46]
A
So sometimes people will say, I'm doing it. Like, I'm doing all of the things and I'm still not getting clients. And something that we've always been big on, you know, that sue teaches, and just in general. And something that I have always taken to heart is, where am I going wrong? And this can be really hard for people to, like, be like, okay, so it's not the economy. It's not that people don't value what I do. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. And like, when my bookings get slower, I have to sit back and say, okay, where am I going wrong? It's not them. It's Me. And there's so much power in that. Like, if I can be in control and I can be the one to change that I don't have to rely on other people. Like, just this mentality overall has been crucial for me. So if you were to tell people, I'm assuming you feel the same.
- [15:40]
B
I do, yes.
- [15:42]
A
So if you could kind of help people understand where they might be going wrong. Like, how do you get from photographer B to photographer A?
- [15:52]
B
I think you need another set of eyes on it, honestly. Because even if you have what I call a victor mentality versus a victim mentality, sometimes you just don't know what you don't know, or you can't see what you can't see and you need another set of eyes on it. Someone else. That is where you want to be. Not your friends who are also sitting there in their pity party with you. You can't ask those friends. You gotta ask the other, the people who are doing well to take a look at what's happening and analyze it.
- [16:23]
A
Yeah. Okay, so let's say, let's say I'm like, right now I'm not doing well, and I'm like, vanessa, I want you to take a look at my stuff. Where are you starting? So for someone who maybe starting with evaluating your own, like, yes, it's super important to have other eyes on it, but if I were to be evaluating myself, what are some of the things that you would tell me to specifically look at within my, you know, how I'm doing things?
- [16:53]
B
Well, tell me your first problem. I'll tell you where to find the answer.
- [16:56]
A
Let's do two different scenarios. Scenario one is I am putting myself out there. I'm posting on social media, I'm going to networking meetings, and I'm not even really getting the leads. Like, people are not even trying to book me. But I am doing it. I'm putting myself out there. So that's number one.
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B
All right, so here's the way I like to look at this. Do you use flash off camera flash?
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A
No.
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B
Okay, so biggest problem that happens with off camera flash, Right. The flash doesn't fire, Right? Pretty much.
- [17:31]
A
I thought you meant like in my studio. I don't normally use it, but I am aware of how to use it and I did weddings and all things, so yes. Okay.
- [17:37]
B
Okay, perfect. So off camera flash, you've got your transmitter, you've got your camera, you've got your flash. You go to take a picture, it doesn't fire. The way that you troubleshoot how your flash or why Your flash is not firing is exactly the same way you troubleshoot why your business is not firing. So you start with the part that is furthest away from you. So first thing you always check is the flash itself, obviously is it on? But we're going to check the ability for it to flash. So like you press the test button. Great. It flashes. There's nothing wrong with that. Then we're going to go backwards and we're going to press the test button on the transmitter. Right. And if there's you press it, then that tells you there's no problem with the transmitter connection to the flash. Great. So then we know that the problem is between the communication between the camera and the transmitter. Right. Okay. So you do this with your business the exact same way if you're not getting leads, right. Or ultimately you're not getting bookings, but you're putting yourself out there.
- [18:41]
A
Right.
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B
The marketing side is working. That means there's a trouble with the connection between your marketing and calling to action and the desire there. So that could be you're not even asking for a call to action on social media, not giving them anywhere to go. You're not showing up correctly, you're not giving a good first impression and people are running away screaming. Right. Or maybe the actual disconnect is you're getting the leads but they're not booking with you. Well, then that tells me there's a problem with your lead nurturing and your sales cycle and how you sell and your communication. So you kind of just have to play the why isn't my flash firing game with your business?
- [19:21]
A
Well, it's interesting because I think I'll just say from experience, Vanessa, I have been to thousands of networking meetings and I cannot tell you how many times. You know, oftentimes people get like 30 to 60 seconds to stand up in front of the room and give your pitch. And I can't tell you how many times my eyes have glazed over when the person's done talking. I couldn't even tell you what they've done. And then you get to the person with a really captivating pitch and a call to action at the end. And I, I can talk to them afterwards and know exactly what they do and how to, if I need their service, how, how to book them. Like, and I think that that transfers to copy on your website, what you're saying on your social media. It's not just the in person networking pitch where you need to use all of these important marketing tools and strategies. Am I making any sense?
- [20:18]
B
Yeah, it's the messaging, it's how. Which is really just sales, and nobody likes to hear that, but it's learning to communicate effectively to the client that you want contacting you. And it's an art. It's not easy. There's no copy and paste. And quite frankly, ChatGPT isn't going to give you all the answers to that either, because you have to do some analysis of your client avatar and understand what moves them.
- [20:39]
A
Right. Okay, so if someone is not getting leads and they're realizing, or let's start with that they're not even getting the leads in the door, what steps do people take? I know it varies person to person, depending on what they're currently doing, but what, like, what overall would you tell people they really, truly need to do?
- [21:02]
B
Probably look at their first impression. Right. So that analogy that you gave with being at a business meeting, those are a bunch of people giving their first impression for 30 seconds. If your first impression is not ready for your client, they're not contacting you. So figure out what it's like when somebody first hits your homepage on mobile, on your website. What it's like when somebody gets to your social media and there's actually services out there that will do this for you. Like, have total strangers just go look at your stuff and give you honest feedback.
- [21:37]
A
I love that. That'd be interesting.
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B
Yeah.
- [21:42]
A
Huh. I'm like, maybe I'll hire some random person to know.
- [21:45]
B
Yeah, super important. Because that's really what your clients are. They are. They're not photographers. Right. And we sometimes speak to our clients as if they are, and it doesn't work that way.
- [21:56]
A
Yeah, that's exactly right. Okay, so there have been times when I'm doing coaching or mentoring for someone and they really want to book more personal branding. And when I open their website, the first photo is some. You know, it like a woman in, like, a flowy gown or whatever, which doesn't speak to personal branding. Yeah, the personal branding stuff is there, but it's like we have second, not even seconds to capture someone's attention. And if you're trying to market personal branding and the first thing I see is this, like, you know, flowy gown shot, and then there's like four photos of that. And then you have to scroll down and you might find some personal branding photos. Like, that's a problem. Right away, people are gonna be like, what is this? This is not what I'm even looking for. And they're gonna move on.
- [22:44]
B
Right.
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A
Like that first impression. Okay, when you say first impression, I feel like that can be in person, that can be on your website, that can be on your social media. Like, the scroll is real, and you've got to grab someone's attention immediately. Immediately.
- [23:03]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's all of it. It's, you know, how are you showing up? And even when it goes like those networking meetings, too, you know, how are you talking to someone for 30 seconds, even if it's not on the stage, how are you relating to people? How are you deciding who to talk to? In a room that big? All of that matters.
- [23:22]
A
Yeah. So if someone is struggling with that first impression and it's just not coming off strong, there's no call to action. Where do they even go to learn how to make a better impression? Like, what do they even do next?
- [23:40]
B
I guess, you know, if I were to tell someone to get better at branding, I would probably teach them to get better at sales and messaging, because that's. Branding is kind of the pretty way we talk about it, like our brand colors and our brand fonts, which are actually important, for sure. But it's really more about the brand voice and what you say and how you communicate with people. So I would actually tell them to go read the book to Sell as Human. That is a favorite book of mine that just teaches that kind of sales and messaging and why it's important and how it doesn't have to be sleazy and awful. It's not a bad thing. Because really, if you don't know how to communicate effectively to your clients at any point, it's a disservice to them.
- [24:30]
A
Oh, absolutely. Well, okay. And there's so much to it. Gosh, there's just so much to it. But when it comes to something you said before about you have to learn how to be profitable, so you only need five leads a month instead of 20.
- [24:46]
B
Right.
- [24:48]
A
I know sales is so much part of that. It doesn't have to be sleazy and all of that, but how do you price yourself? Well, okay, let me back up. People will say, no one in my area is gonna spend that much money. I'm gonna be charging way more than other photographers, that sort of thing. And I know the messaging and all of it plays into that, but let's start with that pricing piece. Like, how do you price yourself to survive, I guess?
- [25:14]
B
Well, you have to do the math, Right. Because in order to survive, that right there means that you have living expenses and you have a certain profit that you need to make. So you have to do the math. Whatever that profit is. Plus all of your expenses, cost of running a business and the cost of running a sale. And then that's going to give you like the minimum that needs to come through the door either per job or how much per year. So it's really a math equation. And the problem is us photographers get so emotional about the pricing. Whether we are connecting it to oh, I'm not good enough for it or I'm too good for it, or we're just feel shame associated with money for whatever reason, we're too emotional about it. You got to take the emotion out of it and start looking at the data, make data math driven decisions and you're going to become a lot more confident in your pricing. And yes, I've heard that excuse a thousand times. No one pays that in my area. No one. Like stop it. Go point out the mall near you and tell me what stores are in that mall or you know what, within a certain radius there's going to be some luxury stores somewhere. Find out where they are now. That's your target market. You know, those people are around. It was funny, I was having a talk with one of the people that I mentor yesterday and as she was like saying, you know, the people my area doesn't call for that price. And as she was saying that, she was like, well, except for this other photographer by me who charges more than me and does 70 weddings a year. And I'm like, girl, you just like had a coaching moment to yourself.
- [26:53]
A
Yeah, totally. And I think, and I'm guilty of this. So I'm not trying to make anyone feel badly about doing this for sure. When I first started my business, I kind of had my head in the sand about what I was truly spending, how much time I was spending. So if I was charging 500 for a family session and I was spending hours, especially back then, editing, calling, you know, the shoots were taking a long time, all of these things. I was making like minimum wage and I had my head in the sand about it. And when you said like, you really have to have your eyes open and be realistic about the numbers. And on the portrait system, our members get a pricing calculator, it's called. And you input literally every single expense, everything. You input how much you want to bring home per year after all expenses, including taxes, including literally everything, how many times do I want to shoot per month? And then it does the equations and it spits out, okay, this is what you would need to charge your small, medium and large package in order to bring home what you just said or what they typed in. And like you said before, it takes the emotion out of it. It's literally spitting out the numbers at you.
- [28:10]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Where's the spreadsheet again?
- [28:17]
A
It's the pricing calculator within the portrait system membership. And it is a game changer because it really does. It gives you that, like, okay, if I want to bring home 100k, this is what I have to charge. You know, another exercise that I've done forever, Vanessa, is I ask myself the question of if how does charging what I need to charge, industry standard pricing, all of it, how does that help me and my family? You know, how does raising my prices truly help me? It makes I'm happier and less stressed out, which means my kids are gonna feel that less I can travel more I can have a life of freedom. I can not have to wonder if I'm gonna be able to pay my mortgage next month. Like, they're like all of these things. You have to really, like, make a list for yourself. How does raising my prices benefit me and my family, or me and my partner, or just me, whatever it is, and make that list and refer back to that list when you start, like, sweating bullets when you think about raising your pricing. We've all been in that. Have you ever been in that point of burnout where you're like, I am just shooting all the time and I'm not making enough money? Or did you just zoom past that?
- [29:35]
B
I had burnouts because I wasn't upgrading my systems. Right. Or I would take more clients than I could handle because the back end wasn't quite what it needed to be. And I think that happens because there's this sort of, like, influx with a lot of photography. It's seasonal. Right. So in your slow season, you're like, yes. Some people call the things, this sounds great. And then you get there and you're like, oh, my God, I am drowning. So there's that ebb and flow naturally to our industry, I think, in most genres of photography. So you just have to, you know, I had to be prepared. Prepared for that. And usually what that means is spending money, which no one likes to do. Right. But it's getting a client management system that would do so many automations. For me, it's spending money on hiring VA so that I'm not doing the things that I really don't need to do.
- [30:25]
A
Yeah. You know, I'm really bad at that. All of this time that I have been in business for my photography business, for education, I've never hired A va. Really? And I feel like if I had, I would be even. I don't know, I feel like it would have. I would have been a less stressed entrepreneur. But this is. This is sounds really silly, but the reason I never really did it is the thought of having to train someone for what I do because I'm not the most organized in the backend. It, like, stressed me out so much that I just never. I never did. Isn't that crazy?
- [31:02]
B
Well, you know, you have systems in place that you.
- [31:05]
A
I have really hack systems that I think most people would be like, oh, my God, how do you function? Like, I just. It's like the system makes sense to me, but, like, if I were to try to explain it to my husband, he would be like, babe, what are you even doing? Because he's extremely organized and I'm not. I think a lot of people would look at my hard drives and look at my document, just be like, what are you even. Why? I don't know. So my systems are not traditional, I don't think, but I've made it work. But I. I think that I could have alleviated so much stress and like, maybe missing emails and things like that if I had better systems in place. So I'll just say it like that.
- [31:51]
B
Okay. Yeah.
- [31:54]
A
Hey, just a quick break to tell you that since you're here listening, you have access to a really great offer for our listeners only. We have a special promo code you can use to get 50% off the cost of membership. Just go to theportraitsystem.com or click the link in the description and use the promo code PODCAST50 to get 50% off of a membership. We rarely discount membership, so this is a big deal. As I hope you already know, the membership is how I and so many guests on this podcast reached our success. And it gives you access to countless amazing videos, an awesome community, and all the tools you need to build a massively successful business. So use the code podcast50Now to join the community and to start building the business of your dreams. I'll see you there. What are. What are the systems that you have found that truly just made you a better business person, I guess, and alleviated some of that burnout.
- [32:50]
B
Well, having a system for recording my systems is a big one. So I use Loom or Scribe and anytime I do something vertical. I'm sorry, like trainable virtual assistant is what I was getting at for my virtual assistant is recorded, so I don't have to actually train anyone. Anytime I go do something at my computer I just, just hit record and then it creates the SOP for me. So training somebody becomes a lot easier.
- [33:20]
A
Okay, so what about the person who just is not in a financial situation to hire a va and they're still just, you know, they're hanging in there, but things definitely have room to improve. As far as the system piece, what are some things that people could do if VA is not an option?
- [33:41]
B
Really maximizing out your client management system? So I use 17 hats, for example. I could purchase 17 hats and just use it for sending it to contract. Or I can use their pipelines and workflows and automations and communication and really set it up to work for me. A lot of the times we do the first part because the rest of it does take a minute to set up in a client management system, but that's going to be helpful. And then also using things like Fixer, which is, it's F, Y X E, R and it helps you answer all of your emails, like instantly. It's pretty epic. You just have to find the things that are, you know, figure out what you don't like to do, what's slowing you down, what you hate, and then find solutions because there's solutions for everything.
- [34:34]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [34:34]
B
So find out what's really bugging you, what you don't like doing, and then figure out how to get rid of that one piece.
- [34:41]
A
One thing I remember really struggling with was I was just typing out emails over and over to different clients, whether back when I was doing weddings or with families or whatever. And then I finally realized, like, oh, I could create some templates for this. Like, it took me a while to realize I could do this.
- [35:00]
B
Aw.
- [35:00]
A
And now it's like I have email templates for personal branding, for seniors, for booking someone in for if someone is hesitant to book a shoot, if they say they can't afford it, if they haven't gotten back to me right away, all I have to do is just go in and copy and paste and I personalize, you know, depending, you know, but for the most part it is right there. And that was such a game changer. Such a game changer for me.
- [35:30]
B
Yeah.
- [35:31]
A
So even things like that you can buy, like I have email templates, or a lot of different photographers sell email templates or you can, you know, create your own. But even that is, is a, is a game changer.
- [35:43]
B
Yeah. Little things again, just little things that you figure out. You know what? This is taking me way too much time.
- [35:49]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, let's go back to pricing because I know this is a big one for our listeners and for our members and just really trying to understand how to price themselves. So I know it goes down to what is your bottom line? How much do you need or want to make? But is there a standard that you recommend people to start with? I guess.
- [36:13]
B
Ooh, a stand. You know, that's difficult because, you know, there are a bazillion different genres. What genre do we want to talk about? I guess we can start there.
- [36:23]
A
Okay. Since this is. We're focused mostly on portraits, maybe family. Let's start there.
- [36:30]
B
Okay. So you're just gonna start kind of figuring out what is around you, because I do think it is important. Right. If you are in small rural town, you're probably not gonna do the same thing as a photographer in downtown Los Angeles. Right? There is an element of that, absolutely. But then it's just a matter of, you know, building out the math equation.
- [36:53]
A
It's just as simple as that. No emotion, no emotions.
- [36:56]
B
I don't think so. Because the second you make emotional decisions, it just skews everything. Right. But you know, and I think even, I think even basing it on your client's emotions is a problem too. Right. Because some people will set up their price and then they'll be like, oh, but my, my clients won't pay for that. And I get this when it comes to the back end profit, when it comes to like, selling tangibles. Right. Oh, my, my clients don't want albums. My clients don want prints. You know what they really don't want? They don't want to spend a ton of money on photography and then never look at the photos again. That's what they really don't want.
- [37:35]
A
Right. And who are we to decide what someone wants and doesn't want?
- [37:38]
B
Exactly. Making decisions for your clients is the worst idea. And also, you deciding how you're going to run your business based on their decisions is also not a good idea.
- [37:52]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [37:54]
B
Yeah. It has to be somewhere in between. You do have to take the data, you do have to know who you're marketing to. But after that, it just has to be a math equation and really learning how to sell. Because so many people think about, all right, I'm going to give, I don't know, this number of hours, this number of photos, Right. For family, maybe. And that's what they end up selling. They explain their pricing by saying, well, you get an hour shoot and 75 photos for $500. Okay, well then what are you doing? You're teaching them to compare based on price and Tangibles, instead of teaching them the outcome, teaching them or, you know, selling the experience. And it's very, very different. And you'll get a different outcome and you'll attach different value and different things that they're going to compare and contrast with other photographers.
- [38:48]
A
Can you give an example of what someone should say? Other than one hour, you get 75 photos and it's $500.
- [38:55]
B
Well, it does rely a little bit on, like, your service and, you know, what your unique mechanism is, right? Like your thing that makes you unique. So I like to give the example of a travel agent trying to sell a vacation to Hawaii.
- [39:10]
A
Right?
- [39:10]
B
You're not going to tell them how long they're going to be in the airplane, how annoying it's going to be to go through TSA and what jet lag will feel like. Right. Even though. Yes, that is sort of the technical part of the trip. You probably won't even mention how much it is per night. Right. Instead, if you're selling that trip to Hawaii to a family, four, you're going to tell the parents. You're going to be like, this is going to be the best trip ever. Your kids are going to be telling all their friends about this for months. You're going to have these photos and just create such a bond because you valued your life experiences with your children at this age instead of buying them cheap plastic toys. And then this is going to become a tradition. And your kids later will have so much fun, it will make such an impact on their lives that they're going to do this with their kids and invite you to come along. That's how you sell the outcome. That's how you sell the experience, right?
- [40:06]
A
Yeah. You're validating my own sales process. Like, when I do a pitch to. Let's. Let's say I'll do one for personal branding, one for family. So for personal branding, I'm like, okay, who out there hates having their photo taken? And people are like me, you know? And I'll say, good news for you, I'm the photographer that's going to pose you. I'm going to tell you exactly what to do. And I promise you, this is going to be so fun. We're going to do your hair and makeup first. I'm going to help you figure out what to wear. All you have to do is show up and you're finally going to have the most beautiful photos that you've ever seen for your marketing, for your Instagram. You don't have to stress about if someone wants your headshot anymore. And your personal branding photos, your new photos are going to help you make more money. And ask me why after the show, like after the event, like, things like that, as opposed to, you know, hi, I'm Nikki and I'm a personal branding photographer and I specialize in women in business. Like, you know what I mean, there's a difference there. Or like for family, I know how stressful family photos can be. Give me 20 minutes and I'm gonna give you photos that you will be sharing for a lifetime, that your kids are gonna look back on and that you can hang on the wall finally, that you've been wanting to do. You know, like, I'm gonna make sure your partner has fun, you know, all of these things. I think there's so many ways you can do it, I mean, based on your personality and how you speak. But something like that, as opposed to what you said of okay, you get 500 or you get 75 photos for $500. Like, yeah, it just makes a big difference.
- [41:46]
B
Well, and I don't know if you probably do know this, but what you are doing is understanding your client avatar. Right. You're understanding their pain points and addressing the pain point. You're understanding their actual desire and speaking to their desire. And that's very much the difference in how you're selling the outcome versus selling the thing.
- [42:06]
A
Absolutely. And it's making it all about the client. I think it's so important for just when you're, when you're looking at what am I, what copy am I going to write on my website? What am I going to say in these networking meetings, you know, what am I going to post on social media? Make it all about those clients, all that, what are you going to do for them? Don't talk to other photographers, you know, what are you going to do for them? Like, it's so, so crucial.
- [42:34]
B
Yeah. And that I will say so maybe 10, 15 years ago, the vibe overall when in the photography industry was you have to talk about yourself. It really was that. And probably not even just the photography industry, it was probably overall like that was, it was all about selling yourself. You're unique, you're not a mass produced company. Right. Like you're a person, show your human side, that kind of thing. So a lot of us are saying still there. But that's a perfect example of why you need to take advice from people who are still in business and relevant in the market. Because that culture, our culture has shifted and there's very much a me centered and I don't mean that in, like, a selfish way.
- [43:16]
A
Right.
- [43:16]
B
But we are very used to everything being curated towards our desires. Right. Even the ads that we get fed, they're curated to what we want and who we are. So the messaging as business owners that we have to convert to, is that kind of speaking to you, telling you how I'm going to make your life easier and better?
- [43:37]
A
Right.
- [43:38]
B
Yeah, it's a shift.
- [43:40]
A
Yeah, it is a shift. And I want to switch gears and go back to one question that I forgot to ask you before, which is often what I hear is that someone had been charging 2, 3, 4, maybe $700 for a shoot, and they need to raise their prices, and they're terrified that their old clients are not going to pay their new clients. Is this something that, you know, advice that you might have for people around that.
- [44:06]
B
Yeah. You know, when you grow, your circles change, like customers, friends, businesses, and that's okay. You know, my clients that booked me 15 years ago for a wedding certainly would not be booking me now.
- [44:22]
A
Yeah.
- [44:23]
B
You have to find your new circle. And that, you know, that happens a lot with photographers is they go through this plateau, right. Where they, like, raise their prices. And then all of a sudden, like, wait, I can't find the people that are going to pay these because they're still fishing in the same pond from their previous clients, and they just, like, kind of cap at a certain point. And what you have to do, probably even before you raise your prices, you have to start fishing in that next pond, and you have to get into that next level of relationships with the next level people. And I want to make it look like a higher or lower thing. It's not necessarily that. It's just the next market that you're trying to go after because it's not the same market you're in right now.
- [45:04]
A
Yeah. There. I do find that some clients will come with you and that's okay. Or, sorry, some clients will come with you and some won't, and that's okay. You know, like, that's okay. It is not a dig.
- [45:18]
B
You're not a failing photographer. Your work does not suck because that happens.
- [45:22]
A
Right.
- [45:23]
B
It's just you're changing.
- [45:25]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think that people should just give up on all those old clients. Like, it's always worth trying. It's always worth throwing it out there. Like. But I think it's important if you're going to raise your prices to your old clients. Talk about, like, maybe new services you're providing. Like, I remember when I was I was kind of transitioning from the four or five hundred dollar shoot to starting at twelve hundred. And I was like panicking, you know, But I let people know that now you get hair and makeup styling for anyone in the family who wants it. And, you know, it's a whole new experience. We're doing outfit changes, we're gonna start in my studio and then we're gonna head outside, where I used to just go outside. They would show up how they showed up and that was it. So I was giving the extra services and letting them know how things were changing. And you know, if you wanna book a shoot, you know, blah, blah, blah, doing my whole thing, but letting them know that there is more value to this now. It's not the exact same thing that now I've just tripled my prices and I think that was helpful.
- [46:27]
B
Yeah. And you know, the ones that can't afford you anymore don't think that they're mad at you either. They're there cheering you on. All the good ones, right. They're there like, oh man, I got her when she was up and coming, or him when he was up and coming. Right. I was able to. Yes, yes. And they follow you. I have so many clients that I've had for 16 years ago, 18 years ago, and they're like, yes, Vanessa, I'm so proud. It's so crazy that you're this person now and you're the one who was there for me on my wedding day. The good ones will cheer you on. Only the ones that you don't want as clients anymore anyway are the ones that are gonna be mad about it.
- [47:07]
A
And not only that, those clients who, like you said, maybe it's just not in the budget anymore and they might have friends who do have it in the budget or family or whatever, and they're still going to talk about you. So it's like you don't want to burn those relationships down just because they're not going to book you anymore. Like still continue to nurture those old clients again. Past clients are like the easiest to market to. Because they know like and trust you.
- [47:33]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [47:34]
A
Okay, before we move on to the four questions I always ask at the end, you mentioned that you have associate photographers for weddings. And I'm wondering if people who are kind of wanting to transition out of weddings but don't want to lose all of that income, what advice would you have for someone who could maybe start bringing on an associate which frees them up for portraits?
- [47:58]
B
The best thing that you can do, really. And I Will say, I do not do this for. I'll tell you my reasons. But really the best thing you can do is bring them in 100%. Like on your website. They are the person that's there so you know their clients, new people coming on can fall in love with them as much as they fall in love with you. It's like, this is my team. And it takes a little bit of a different sales process in selling the team. You have to sell like your process, your system, your studio versus selling. How I make your life different. Right. It's how the studio does it. But one of the reasons I don't do that with mine is because they all own their own businesses too. So it would be kind of counter productive like for them to then just some google them and then find my website and then that. I don't feel like that's a good idea.
- [48:50]
A
There's two ways to do it then. You can either bring them on a hundred percent and you're marketing them on your. Or like how do you. If a client wants you but they're gonna get an associate and they don't really know a whole. Like, how do you. How do you make that happen?
- [49:07]
B
You know, it can be as simple as like. Yeah, they're the ones who do all these insert whatever shoot. They do all my. All the weddings for the studio now. They do all the family photos for the studio now. You've already seen their work. It's on the website if you like what's on the website. They're the one. They're the ones who made it. That's how we do it. I'm just here as the business owner who runs everything. Yeah, very cool.
- [49:27]
A
Kind of wish I would have done that and you know, back in the day, maybe I could have had like more income coming in.
- [49:33]
B
Yeah, I mean I was forced into it for two different reasons. One, it was Covid. I was in New Jersey at the time and 82% of my weddings rescheduled for the following year. And some fell on the same date.
- [49:46]
A
Right.
- [49:46]
B
So instead of like losing them, I'd be like, okay, in this case you get my associate photographer, right?
- [49:51]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure end at the. At that point they're just like over it. Like, okay, fine, I'll take whatever I can get. Make sure their wedding happens.
- [49:59]
B
Exactly. And I was like, well, this is working and I can trust these three people at the time. So let me just keep doing this. And because the price for me is quite high for that area, I was able to Provide still quite above average, but a little bit more economical version for still getting my process, my system, my quality, my everything, my outcome, but not with me personally. Just the day of. So that worked out. And then the second reason was I moved from New Jersey to Austin, and I had photographers there that I still wanted to keep employed. So now they still do weddings for me. I still do weddings over there, but they also do corporate work for me too, and corporate headshots. And it's great that I've been able to train them. I mean, they've even gone when there was a schedule conflict. I had to be in France for something, but my best corporate client needed me on a shoot. I just sent my. My guy, and he did a great job.
- [50:54]
A
Smart. That's awesome.
- [50:55]
B
Yeah, I like making money in two places at the same time.
- [50:59]
A
I know the best, so. Great. All right, well, thank you for all of this. And I do still have four questions that I always ask at the end of each episode. And the first one is. Oh, if I could remember the first one. The first one is. Oh, yeah. What is something you can't live without when you're doing a photo shoot?
- [51:17]
B
When I'm doing a photo shoot, I can't live without my snacks. Most specifically, I call it my Give a Crap drink. It's an energy drink, but it's like, whenever I'm in a long shoot and I'm starting to, like, I don't care about this anymore. I just have to drink that. My Give a Crap drink.
- [51:34]
A
Oh, my God.
- [51:35]
B
And I'm back in business.
- [51:37]
A
I love it. I love it. Yeah. Snacks and that's amazing. All right, Number two is how do you spend your time when you're not
- [51:45]
B
working with my kids? So we are. I'm really excited. We're going to Turks and Caicos in a couple of weeks.
- [51:51]
A
Where are you going?
- [51:52]
B
My parents. Turks and Caicos. Oh, yeah. And bringing my parents. Like, my parents actually live across the street, so it's. I just. I stay home. I don't go anywhere if I can help it.
- [52:03]
A
That's awesome.
- [52:04]
B
Very cool.
- [52:05]
A
We're going to Mexico in two weeks. I cannot wait.
- [52:07]
B
Oh, fun. We'll fly past each other. Yeah.
- [52:11]
A
Okay. Number three is what is a photography so specific product that you recommend?
- [52:17]
B
Oh, my God. That's such a loaded question. That's like asking for my favorite, favorite photography thing. But, I mean, you know, I'll. I'll just say my best photography product, gets the most use, gives me the most outcome, is my Canon RF 2870 F2 at Lens.
- [52:33]
A
There you go.
- [52:34]
B
You cannot. Oh, so good.
- [52:36]
A
Awesome. All right, number four is what would you tell people who are just starting out?
- [52:42]
B
No. Run away. No, I'm kidding. Find a mentor. Honestly, going back to how I learned working for someone else, it's the best thing I ever did. And you can start your own business at the same time, but find other people to work for, preferably as many people as possible. You will learn so much. I don't care. If you like, go get their coffee every morning and just sit in their office for 20 minutes an hour. Anything you can do to see how other people are working will help you for sure.
- [53:12]
A
Love it. All right, where can people find you online? Vanessa.
- [53:16]
B
VanessaJoy.com you can see my photo work, my corporate work, and then all the education I provide for photographers.
- [53:23]
A
Fantastic. Well, thank you. This has been great. And I'll see you at WPPI first week of March. So excited. Annie Leibowitz will be there, which is incredible.
- [53:34]
B
I can't wait. I have never heard her speak. I will be at the podcast, actually, the free podcast. Oh, perfect. There. And then I will also be speaking on the Canon stage.
- [53:47]
A
Fantastic. All right, well, I will see you in March. And thank you again for doing this with me.
- [53:53]
B
Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you.
- [53:55]
A
Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System podcast. Your 5 star reviews really help us to continue what we do. So if you like listening, listening, would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? I also encourage you to head over to Soubre Dasheducation.com where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1000 on demand educational videos on things like posing, lighting, styling, retouching, shooting, marketing, sales, business and self value. There's also the 90 day startup challenge, plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses. We have to do checklists for your business lighting, PDFs. I mean, truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once again, that's suebriceducation. Com.