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The Portrait System Podcast
The Corporate Photography Blueprint: Build a Team, Land Big Clients & Scale Past Six Figures | Jaren Collins
00:52:17
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Hey there, it's Nikki Klosser and I want to let you know about an
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awesome free giveaway for people on our email list. If you haven't already, click the link
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in our podcast description or go to
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theportraitsystem.com signup to get on the list. If you sign up, you'll get a free posing 101 PDF to jumpstart things. It's an epic PDF, so you'll definitely want to get this.
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Also, just by being in our email community, you'll get deals, sales, and information about any of our upcoming events and activities.
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So head over to theportraitsystem.com sign up and and sign up. Today you're listening to the Portrait System podcast.
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What would it look like if I were to do that for myself? Like, if I could create something where I make that type of income and bring that type of value to my life, that's life changing, right? Once I quit the job and got out of there and started to see, like, okay, I can make six figures doing this, like I have the potential to build something here, that's when I started building the team and thinking about, you know, what type of business I was going to do.
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Welcome to the Portrait System podcast. I'm your host, Nikki Klosser and this show is here to help you succeed in the world of photography and business. To help you learn to become financially free, doing what you love and so much more. With over 1 million downloads, countless photographers have taken what they've learned from both our episodes and from theportraitsystem.com and they have grown their businesses, quit their day jobs and are designing a life of their dreams.
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We keep it real and share stories
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about the ups and downs that come with running a photography business.
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You'll hear real life stories of how
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other photographers run their business and you'll learn actionable steps that you can take to reach your own goals. Thank you so much for being here.
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And let's get started. What happens when a portrait photographer stops thinking like a freelancer and starts thinking like a CEO? I'm Nikki Closer and my guest today, Jaron Collins, breaks down how he went from shooting portraits to landing major corporate clients, building a team covering large scale events, and offering everything from photography to video production. Jaron has built a business that goes way beyond being a solo photographer and I cannot wait for you to hear what he has to say. Let's get started with Jaron Collins. Hi Jaron. Welcome to the Portrait System. How you doing?
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C
I'm well, Nikki. How are You.
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I'm wonderful. I'm glad we made this happen.
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C
Likewise, man. We've come a long way.
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B
I know. Just funny story, it might have been late one night at WPPI and I was starving and they at the Rio have this chicken place and I was like, I really need a chicken sandwich. And we met in line and started chatting and I was like, I want to have you on the podcast one day. So, yeah, random, random meeting at WPPI after drinks story.
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C
And here we are. Some of the best opportunities are made over chicken. So.
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Right.
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C
That's awesome.
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And I remember saying the next day, that was the best fried chicken sandwich I've ever had. And I don't know if it's just because I was starving or if it actually was that good.
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C
I don't know, it could have been the alcohol, but it was. I enjoyed it. I think it was top tier.
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B
I love it. Okay, we have a lot to cover. You have a pretty cool business and I'm excited for everyone to hear about it. Where are you located to start?
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C
So we are based in Dallas, Texas.
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B
And then when you say we, do you have a team or is it just you?
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C
Yeah, we have a team. So I am the leading owner of JCI Creatives, but we have a team of about six people and we work in serving conferences and conventions nationwide.
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B
Okay, so I have so many questions, but just to start with, when you say conferences and conventions, are you doing like candid photos at conferences? Are you doing headshots for people? A little bit of both. How's that, how's that all work?
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C
All of the above. So we do, we try to do it all. We do candid capture of conferences and conventions, we do headshot stations, we do video recaps, we've done production work where we do multi camera for live streams. So we're.
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Hey, just a quick break to tell
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you that since you're here listening, you have access to a really great offer
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for our listeners only.
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We have a special promo code you
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can use to get 50% off the cost of membership. Just go to theportraitsystem.com or click the link in the description and use the promo code PODCAST50 to get 50% off of a membership.
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We rarely discount membership, so this is a big deal. As I hope you already know, the
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membership is how I and so many guests on this podcast reached our success and it gives you access to countless amazing videos, an awesome community, and all the tools you need to build a massively successful business.
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So use the code podcast50Now to join
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the community and to start building the
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business of your dreams. I'll see you there.
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C
You know, pretty multifaceted in what we offer.
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B
Yeah, that's cool. I mean, when you first started, I'm assuming you did not have a team of six or did you just come right out the gate with a team?
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C
No, it was just me. I actually started back in college, so the year was 2009. It sounds forever ago, but I had actually got my first camera, Canon Rebel through a good. And I just started shooting around campus. It was just me. And this is what I did to pay my rent back then, you know, and make things happen for me while I was on campus at the University of Oklahoma. And then it just kind of spiraled out from there. So I did it through undergrad, grad school, and then I had a short stint in there where I took a sabbatical and got a real job and tried to be an adult. And I quickly realized that it was overrated. So that you're miserable and have no free time. I didn't need to do that. So I ended up letting that go in, like, 2017. And I've been full time doing this thing ever since. And so from there, my first thing coming out full time was finding community and other photographers and videographers, not just to help me understand what we do, but also to use as team members. So when it comes to. And I feel like I'm probably stealing your thunder here, but, you know, when it comes to growing and scaling, you can't just do everything by yourself all the time forever. Like, you have to have good people around you.
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B
Yeah, keep stealing my thunder. Because that is. That's, like, great advice. It's true.
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C
Well, sorry, it's the adhd. Sometimes I just tend to flow.
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B
I'm with you. You keep flowing. I love it. You know, there are a lot of people listening who are in a job that they don't love. Maybe they're miserable. And then you said you just. You let that go and you just went for it. Like, are you the type of person where you had all, like, a good chunk of savings and you were, like, super prepared, or were you just like, I'm just going for it and I'm gonna see what happens.
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C
So if I'm going to be honest, yes and no. How it happened was I shot a wedding on, like, Labor Day weekend on that Monday. I woke up, went and shot the wedding. I. Beautiful wedding, beautiful shots. And that next morning, I literally woke up. I remember standing on the reception floor thinking, if I could do this for the rest of my life. I'd be happy. And that next morning I literally woke up and I was like, I can't do this anymore. And I had been like wanting to quit, but I wasn't ready. I had some monies, but I had this really lurching fear that the moment I told them, like, hey, I quit, suddenly my apartment complex was going to kick me out and evict me and my light, water and gas was going to cut off. I just felt like it was just a switch. Like, oh, you don't have a job anymore, we're just gonna cut it off, it's over. And it was an irrational fear, but it was fear. So I woke up that next morning after that wedding and I was stuck in bed. And I remember having a conversation with myself, basically saying, either you get up and go to work today and this is what you're gonna do for the rest of your life, or you call in or show up and you let them know that you're finished. And I called my mom and she was surprisingly understanding. And I felt like that was the aha moment. That it's like, okay, it's not as bad as I thought because I thought my mom was going to like lose it. Like, who quits a good job? I was working in contractor management, doing fairly well for myself, but she was like, okay, you know, let me know how it goes. So I walked in that day and I quit and I thought it was over and they were going to kick me out and they said, no, actually we want you to work another week. Which gave me another paycheck. And that's how I had a little bit to get off, you know, and go off and do my own thing. But the craziest thing was so before I quit, when I started my full time job, I was like, hey, I'm not going to do any photography. I'm done with this. About a year and a half in, I said, okay, I'm gonna start doing photography a little bit again. So I had started to kind of pick up steam in my community. So when I got to the point where I quit, I wasn't fully, you know, on my own or making enough as a photographer, but I had already kind of put the feelers out and started working in certain spaces. And so when I quit my job that next month, suddenly, like, I'm brought in enough clientele to make just enough money to match my income at my full time job from that month before. So there was never a moment where it was like, A drop off. And it was like a catastrophic. Like, oh, what was me? But it just kind of flowed. And that's how I feel. Like I naturally knew, like, okay, I made the right decision.
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B
Isn't that crazy how it ended up being the same amount of what you needed?
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C
It was like almost to the dollar. It was like complete confirmation because I. I had never made that much money in a moment as a photographer. And so I was just very shocked that that was even possible. And so then to kind of get away from the job and then start looking at, like, okay, getting health insurance and these things, and then to find that the income stream kind of stayed there, you know, moving forward to where when I got into the next year, when I was completely full time, this is when I established everything formally in 2017. And that next year, I actually ended up cracking six figures that first year. And I was like, whoa, I didn't know this was possible. Yeah. And so it was really an aha moment because I knew then, like, the power of what I have inside me, but also in my business. But it also showed me something that was kind of startling. So one of the things that I learned that was kind of breathtaking for me was in that corporate job, I kind of got some of the behind the scenes workings on, you know, how they were running the business and their expectation of their employees. And one of the things that they said to me or one of the messages I received was that they were expecting every employee to bring in about $300,000 worth of business every year. So when they told us, like, how much they make a year, then I start counting up employees. And I said, well, that's like $300,000 a person. And so then it's like, if you don't hit that metric, which they do track, they don't tell you they track, but they do track. Then they end up letting you go, or they do other things to kind of get you there or what have you. They make decisions based off that, which is beautiful for a business, but for me as an employee who was making a certain amount a year, I saw a gap. You're making this much off of me. I'm only making this much. And so then I started to think to myself, well, what would it look like if I were to do that for myself? Like, if I could create something where I make that type of income and bring that type of value to my life, that's life changing. Right? And so that was kind of. Once I quit the job and got out of there and started to See, like, okay, I can make six figures doing this. Like, I have the potential to build something here. That's when I started building the team and thinking about, you know, what type of, you know, business I was going to do. I didn't start just doing corporate work. That wasn't the first choice. I was a wedding photographer for, like, two, three years. One year, I actually did 52 weddings just that year. And you're thinking, like, that's insane, but you have a team. No, I showed up for almost all of those weddings that year, and it was insane. It was absurd. But it's like, if I wanted to grow it into this space, what does that look like? And so I had to figure out how to do the work and also figure out how to make the business work for me.
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B
Yeah.
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Okay.
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You said so many amazing things in there. I want to come back to what you just said about what the corporations make and the team and all that, but one thing you said is that you called your mom, and she was supportive, which is incredible. I just want to say to people who are listening, if your mother or your partner or whoever is not supportive, that's okay. You can still do this. I. I think about, like, if my dad had been alive when I told him I was gonna quit my. If I, you know, had the chance to tell him I was gonna quit this, like, stable school, social work job, he would have been like, no, you're not. Not a chance in hell. I was an adult. Of course I would have anyway. But I just wanted to say that sometimes the people closest to you in your life won't want you to do it, but it's okay. Thankfully, you had a supportive mother, which is incredible. Just wanted to throw that in there.
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C
I did. I had. And there were other people I told at that time who just completely did not understand it. I had an uncle who literally started buffering when I told him I was gonna quit a stable job. But it's a generational thing, I think, for my mom. She was there, so she knew what I was doing and how it was looking for others. They're like. Especially in a certain generation, they're like, that's stability. That's security. Why would you walk away from that?
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Why do you need happiness?
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C
Right? There's so much risk, but they don't. They don't know. They don't see the reward because they've never experienced the reward, so they don't even know what to expect.
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B
Well, when you said you were laying in bed, like, I was so depressed as a Social worker. My husband saw that. So when I told him, he's like, whatever you gotta do to be yourself again, you know? And I'm sure as. As your mom looking at her son, knowing her son's not happy, oh, it just makes me. Gets me, like, a little choked up thinking about my own boys. Like, I want them to, you know? Anyway. Makes me really love your mom. Okay, moving on. When you were talking about. It's crazy, the whole corporate world. And sometimes as business owners, we don't think like business owners. Like, are you really looking at your numbers? Do you know what your cost of doing business is? Do you know how much you need to charge if you want to shoot 10 shoots a month or 20 or 5? Like, do you know what that looks like? And a lot of people don't. And, like, isn't it so eye opening to think, like, as an employee, I have to bring in this much, but I'm only like, it's. There's a whole lot of business happening in this world and we need to, like, get on track and make sure we are running our businesses so that we're profiting, I guess.
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C
100% agree?
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B
Yeah. Wow. Okay. All right. So you end up quitting, and I hesitate to tell someone to quit your job before you even have some clients coming in. I mean, you have to have at least the train in motion, I think, in order for it to really, really be successful.
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C
And to add to that, when I quit, there was like a great mass exodus in Dallas amongst my friends who also quit their jobs. Some who are still full time, like me, some who are not. But what I have noticed over the years, at this point, I'm almost 10 years full time, is that when you quit without some sort of safety net or the right expectation, you're gonna be a lot quicker to go back to what's comfortable and what's safe. So, you know, having that fund is good. But also considering, like, what are your systems? What is your business actually gonna look like? I think part of building that business up before you quit helps you kind of flesh that out while you still have some backing and some support. And then when you cut that tie, you should be fully operational. And you should have, you know, at least enough to float you for, I'd say, a month or two. And especially this was, you know, 10 years ago. Present day, the job market is a lot different. So back then, I used to tell people, you know, if you quit, you go find another job. I had a friend of mine, I encouraged him to quit his job he quit his job and found another one within a month. Right. He wasn't doing photography, but he just didn't like where he was. Nowadays that may not be the case. So it's like you definitely have to come out with more of a plan of what does it look like for me to go out and succeed? And to have an idea of what does it look like for me to go out and fail? Because that's going to be your key indicator of do I need to start searching for a job? Ironically, my wife is also a full time entrepreneur. She was not when we got together, but we kind of went through that transition where I had to show her like, hey, you know, I want to see, you know, you hit these particular things along the way that'll let us know that this is going in the right direction. Like you have to have a plan. What is the old saying? Plan to fail, fail to plan. Something like that.
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B
It's one of them, something like that. And there is that fear you mentioned. It was scary. Like I remember Sue Bryce said something, you know, before, with change comes pain. You know, the fear, the pain. Anytime you make a big change, it's gonna be scary. It's gonna, you know, there's gonna be days where it's really hard. But gosh, when you get through to that other side, it's amazing, magical. You started with weddings, but now you're in this whole corporate world. And I want to show your website here. I'm just on one of your pages, jcicreatives.com and then I'm on the services overview. And you've got all these different examples of what you do. And I love that there's such a good variety. You've got someone golfing, there's a corporate conference, a car show. Was that a car show?
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C
That was an activation at the U.S. hispanic Chamber of Commerce for Toyota. Toyota had hired me to capture photo and video content.
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B
Okay, tell us a little bit about one the services you provide. I know you briefly touched on it in the beginning, but is it photography, is it video? How many people are going to these events with you? Like, just give us like the overall services overview, I guess.
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C
Sure. So when it comes to corporate work, one of the things I preach all the time is that it's less about the photography, the video, it's more about the solution. Right. So we meet the client, where they are and what their need is. If you need photography, we have that. If you need video recap reels, we have that. If you need something live streamed, we have that capability too. So even graphic design, that's something that I don't often promote. But I still have corporate clients specifically who will reach out to me to have me create annual reports, impact reports, you know, flyers, things of that nature. Like we're full creative services and so we've made ourselves available. And for me, as a solution, if it's something that I personally cannot do or offer or maybe don't have the bandwidth for, that's why I have the team, right? So I can reach out to people I know people who do that solution and then I'll white label them and say, hey, you know, we're able to present that this is going to be your team for the day. They can go handle that opportunity and then I'll go on and do the next thing or maybe I'll show up and support as a business rep or what have you. Especially as you grow and get more business and get busier, that becomes more often than you think. Where for example, tomorrow I've got an event going on for a realtor and then I've got another event going on for a construction manager. I'm going to go start that event, have my team in place and I'm going to pop over, handle the realtor event and then come back and close the the event down. And so it's a lot more solution oriented and that comes down to relationship and overall outcomes. Right. Are you producing content with the corporation in mind or what their brand standards are, what their look and feel is and something that they can use beyond just the event recap and, or the event day. You know, when you're working with conferences, they're not using this to just show it on social media like most of your brand clients would be doing, right. They need this to go internally to show outcomes of what they spent. So if we spent a million dollars, here's what we spent a million dollars on to make that make sense for either shareholders or for stakeholders who make that decision moving forward. They use it on advertising and marketing. I have gone to conferences where the pictures I took from the year prior are plastered all over the walls, like literally on expo hall booths and banners and just throughout the room. And it's like that's how I know that I'm making impact, which is really exciting for me as a creative. But also it's got ROI for a business. Right. We're now using this in brochures and branding and then it helps them navigate like what other content should we get moving forward, which creates a repeat use for me. As a vendor to be able to come back and do other things. Like if we're going to do testimonials of a CEO or maybe create a documentary about your organization showing what you do over time. Like it's one of the things I love about working with corporate clientele is that there's such a breadth of different type of work that you can do. And for someone like me who has, you know, a creative spirit but also a little bit of adhd, having something to always be able to figure out is really exciting. And so.
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B
Yeah, yeah, and that's a really good point. I think it's so important to think outside of the box. Sometimes your clients don't know what they need. You know, if you can look at what even just personal branding, for example, if you can create them some reels or flyers or make sure they're, you know, have their logo in certain photos or whatever. I mean there's so many different upsell add ons that you can add, you know, to have that client spend more. And it sounds like you have that super dialed into your brain. Like what are all. And if, what are all the possibilities of things I could offer someone and if I personally can't do it, I'm gonna find someone who can. It's genius. I feel like it could take a client from spending, you know, 1,000, 2,000 up to spending 10, 20,000 just by thinking outside of the box or what are these services that I could offer?
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C
Man, let me tell you the truth. I have had clients that have started from one off events. This happens more often than not. And honestly, actually in sales, little tidbit, it's actually called a monkey paw strategy where essentially you sell a client on something small and then they grab the monkey's paw, they get hooked in and then you end up selling them for something big. I don't do this intentionally, but it does haphazardly happen a lot. Where I have a client that comes to me for a one off event. It was a three hour event at a regional conference or at a trade show. They just needed a couple of pictures or maybe like a quick recap reel for a three hour event. They paid me $1,000. Great, had a blast, move on to the next thing. But what will happen is I'll start talking, we'll start getting to know one another. And as I'm talking, I'm hearing their needs. And so I don't even necessarily have to offer the need and say, hey, you should do this, that and the third. A lot of times It'll be as we're having the conversation, they'll say, hey, well, I think we'll want to bring you back in October to do this thing. And usually that thing is a bigger project. And so then over time, it starts to kind of balloon up. So, like, I have one client in particular. I can think of where we went from one event back in, like, 2018 to currently that went from, you know, $1,000 event to now we're doing almost $100,000 in spend just with that client. Right. Because now we have grown up to where I'm doing all of the video testimonial things. And. And it's not all, you know, one project. It might be over several projects through the year, but when there is something, I'm the number one guy, right? I'm the team that they call. If I can't be there personally, I've got people who can go in and fill in. And so it's really great to just build that relationship and watch us first over time. I've got another client who we've been doing the same conference for them literally for 10 years, to the point where people in their organization ask for us by name. Hey, where's this person? Where's that person? Oh, they didn't come next year. We look forward to seeing them next year in Indianapolis. Like, we're all. They know that we're who they work with. They have a favorable relationship. And so that's what we want to build. Right? Relationship where they know we're reliable, we're trustworthy, and we're going to be a lock and key solution for them every time.
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B
Incredible. And that goes back to providing the great, the amazing service, connecting with your clients. And I say this all the time. I think sometimes people forget your past clients are the best people to market to because they already know, like, and trust you. So don't just do the one off thing. And then whether it's corporate or portraits or, you know, weddings, whatever it is, you know, in weddings, people get pregnant. People, you know, they have kids, they need family photos. Like, there's so many ways that you can look at your past clients and think, what do they need now?
- [25:44]
C
I agree. Before we pivot, I did want to add another tidbit. So I agree with that. I have one client that I did their wedding years ago. They come back to me every year since. Since they've had a child and since then and do a family photo shoot. But one thing I will say too, that I think people don't consider, yes it is great to go back to past clients upsell. There's a lot of opportunity there. They're always going to have something that they need done. But people undervalue asking for referral.
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B
Yes.
- [26:11]
C
In the corporate client world, that is a huge misstep if you're not asking, either actively asking for a referral or being ready when the referral comes to you. So for me, I will say, I don't just come out and say, like, hey, who else is doing this thing in your industry? You know, we want to do the. What I do for myself is I let the service speak. And almost 80% of the time, I'll have down the line somebody who'll come out and say, hey, we saw what you did at CMHA or at this conference. You know, can you come and do this here for us? Okay. And then I'll go and do that. That gig for them. And then they'll be like, hey, we look forward to seeing you in November. Okay, great, I'll see you back at that conference. And that creates another. It's like a multiversal branch. Like, they just start branching out because people are looking for people who are good in quality and service. Right. And so once they have it, they shout it for the rooftop. I had a client yesterday who actually emailed me, locking me in for their conference. That's going to be later on this year. But in that, she said, hey, if you ever need somebody to speak to a client or to give you a referral testimonial, keep me in mind, let me know. So when we go to the conference later this year, I told her, I said, we're gonna record an interview with you as well. And I just want you to talk about the service that we have provided and what we've done here. And it's actually crazy. So it's like, when you really do good, quality work and people like working with you, they should be giving you referrals. They should be recommending you to other people. And if they're not, don't be afraid to ask, because nine times out of 10, they know somebody who works the same exact position that they do in another company or in another position. So you want to be able to use those referrals to your advantage.
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B
Yep, that's gold. That's absolute gold. Okay, so for people who are like, okay, I want to get to that point where I can provide great service and get people talking about me, but I'm not there yet, like, I guess, what advice would you give to people who are going to market this genre to get their first gigs.
- [28:13]
C
If you want to get your first gig, you want to move into the corporate space, the first thing you got to do is you have to glean the information. That's listening to the TPS podcast is listening to my content. That's corporate jt. All of the opportunities that are out there because they're giving you the nuggets and the keys. In fact, I've got, I've got a video coming out a couple of weeks that's actually going to challenge you on getting that first client. And the steps are like this. I'm going to give you all a preview. You have to glean that information first, work on your systems and how you're working. So that's your contracts, your invoices. But while you're working on your systems, also making sure that you're going out and doing the work, learn your craft. You're not gonna pick up a big client like Pepsi or Coke or some of these people if you're not good at what you do. So you can do that on a small scale. Do that at events for friends. Join an organization in your area, start shooting for them. You know, whatever's gonna get that camera in your hand to give you time to pray, practice. I can say you can go from, from bad to great within probably a three to six month span if you're really on the grind, practicing your craft, getting confident and as you're comfortable with that, start working with people who are already in your industry. Get an opportunity to either shadow, maybe second shoot, associate, shoot for a little while, and then graduate up to doing the things on your own. Now by this time, when you get into that doing it on your own space, you should already have the systems to be able to generate leads. All of these things have been working like a good pot roast soup, you know, in the background where you've been kind of building all of this together so that you get on the other end of that and now it's like, okay, I'm ready to go. I understand it now. I see the path forward. Let's make it happen.
- [29:47]
B
Yeah, there is something to getting the education for sure. And I know you started a YouTube channel as well. What's your YouTube channel name?
- [29:55]
C
You should find me at Jaron Collins, JCI Creatives, both of those search will to find me on YouTube.
- [30:01]
B
Okay. But I want to caution people, yes, you have to learn. Absolutely. But you can't hide behind learning. I think a lot of people will do that. They'll. It's like paralysis analysis. If I watch one more video, you know, if I. But what you said is so important. You have to get out there and do it and practice all the time. Like you really have to dial in your services, you know, the product that you're creating for people. You have to know your lighting. And you know, depending if you're doing portraits or candid, you need to know you're posing, all of that stuff, get your boots on the ground, you gotta build that portfolio, all of those things. Okay, So I just wanted to reiterate
- [30:42]
C
that and I'd like to piggyback off of that. When I say that working in the corporate space or working in photography is about becoming a solution, I. I mean that literally as a photographer or videographer, you are a problem solver, right? And so when I say get out there and practice, if you want to find your first client or if you want to work in the business, you have to have a camera in your hands. Learning how to operate in different scenarios. When you're working at a conference or convention, everything is changing all the same. The time of day changes the lighting, the type of room you're in changes the lighting setup. Do I need a flash? Do I not need a. Need a flash? And when you're being hired on to do that, they expect you to know that you're expected to be basically a solution step for them, with them not having to think about it. That's for you to think about and you to consider. So by going out and practicing that ahead of time, it's like being a basketball player and you go in and take a thousand free throws, you might start at free throw. One terrible 10,000 free throws later, you're going to be better. It's inevitable because you've been figuring out your form, you've been practicing and repetition. So when you're starting out of photography, just like I did back in the day, I get, I shot event after event after event after event, shooting in parties, in college graduation, shoots. All of those things gave me real world experience to learn how to understand lighting so that I can take that over and shoot a conference almost 15 years later. Right. But it's like it took me to get out there and practice the thing in real time and that's what really gets you set apart.
- [32:15]
B
Love that. I love it. Can we talk a little bit about like packages and pricing? You had mentioned, I think before we started recording that you have an 800 person headshot thing coming up. Like, whoa. Talk to us a little bit about how all of this works?
- [32:30]
C
Absolutely. So the answer to this is it depends. So for me, I try my best to work with corporate clients budgets where I can. When I, when I get an email in Korea and they say, hey, we want this, that and the third, my first question is always, well, what is your budget? Because if my standard pricing is $5,000 a day for a headshot booth, but Your budget is $1,500 more than likely, we don't need to have. Either we don't need to have this conversation or we need to cut some things back for me to fit. Right, Right. So that gives me the upfront of, okay, what are the expectations? And then from there I can figure out how I can fit in to meet that expectation to close the client. Now, for me, me, a lot of my stuff centers around project based rates. I don't do hourly. Like, oh, hey, it's going to cost, you know, 350 an hour, 375 an hour.
- [33:23]
B
I don't do that either.
- [33:25]
C
Right. I try to give them a whole number and then either you like it or you don't. If you don't like it, what can we change to get it to where you need it to be? But what they don't know is on the back end, I actually hold a spreadsheet where it does have everything itemized out from gear to travel, costs, my time, as far as how long I'm going to be on site. It has, you know, deliverables that we're giving. Everything is all connected and mapped out so that I can just go in and plug and play and see, like, what's the whole number for what they're asking for. If they want me to be there for five hours with two headshot booths and it's in, you know, New Orleans, how much is that going to cost realistically? And then I can plug that number into a proposal, send that proposal over, and either they like it or they don't, you know.
- [34:07]
B
Right, right.
- [34:08]
C
And I've had responses where some would be like, oh my God, that's too high. I've had some where they'd be like, oh, that's, that's perfect. Anytime they jump right on it. More than likely I probably undershot that budget. But it gives me some, some basis of, you know, what ground do I have to cover.
- [34:22]
B
So it's interesting. I never really thought to ask someone, you know, what is your, what is your budget? But I guess it's a little bit different with portraits. Like, I have my pricing guide, this is what I charge sort of Thing where I feel like it's almost you're building services, every client, the services you provide might look completely different. So that makes sense to ask about what you're. Yeah.
- [34:48]
C
So there's a difference in the way you show up. Business to business versus business to consumer. So I do portraits as well. I have a studio out here in desoto where, you know, you can come and do an hour session with me just in our studio. Right. And so that's a whole different. Like you said, I have a website for that that they can go to. They can book it. You can see my schedule, put it on my calendar, the dates where I'm busy or blocked off, et cetera. So I have, you know, that process as well, because I don't necessarily have to think of that. Usually a lot of people come to you, they'll say, how much is it? What time can I get? I just send them the link, we're good, lock it in, move forward. With corporate clients, it doesn't necessarily work like that because they don't always have the answers right away. A lot of times when you're talking to up front, they'll. You'll give them. They'll tell you what they want. You have to clarify what they want because it's typically unclear. And then you have to give them what you think would be the best solution to their problems. And so I'll give you an example. If a client reaches out and they say, hey, we would like a headshot booth, and we would like some conference photography on this day. Okay, nine times out of ten, they don't exactly know the timeframe, because on their end, if this is more than six months out, they're probably still planning what that day looks like. And so you'll say, okay, well, about how many hours do you think you want me on site? Well, I think we want you from this time to this time. And I'm thinking that we'll need these two things running simultaneously. So the headshot booth and you doing conference photography are gonna happen at the same time. Okay, well, that means I need two people. Cause I can't do two things at once simultaneously. So that just, you know, probably doubled the cost. But now I know a timeframe, I know how many people you need, and I know where the date and location are. So I can to see am I available, how much is it going to cost me to get there, and what gear am I going to need to be able to run this headshot booth plus me doing conference photography. And then this also means I'm going to need to hire a person, so I need to know how much I'm willing to pay that person as well. Right. And so figuring all of that out brings me to a whole number. And I'd say probably 75% of the time when you send that number back, suddenly there's this moment of clarity where they know, okay, we've got a number. This is perfect. We're getting exactly this, or we've got a number. This is way too high. Which means you had a budget all along, you just didn't want to share it.
- [37:10]
B
Right.
- [37:10]
C
This is way too high. What can we start pulling from to get to where this works? We've seen the proposal. We love your work. We want to work with you. How do we make this fit? And so that's usually the delicate dance of working with business to business, over working with business to consumer.
- [37:27]
B
Right? It is. That's a good way to put it. It's a delicate dance because it's always this. Again, this goes back to I love the what is. What is your budget? Because it like, there have been times when I've put out a price to a company and they're like, oh, sounds great. And I'm like, shit. Like, I totally could have charged more, you know, and then there have been times when they've said, no, sorry, it's way too high. But often the first interaction is like with. With an assistant who is reaching out on behalf of someone else and someone else. And so they do. There's this constant back and forth of figuring out who, you know, who's going to make the decision and, you know. Yeah. Anyway, so, yeah, this is great. If you like, let's just throw it out there. If you have 100 people, all it is is 100 people. Everyone's gonna get a headshot. What do you charge for something like that in Dallas?
- [38:28]
C
So I actually had this happen to me a couple weeks ago and I based it on. It's a tough question because I can frame it one of two ways. I could do it as a day rate and say, hey, you know, my day rate is 3,500. You've got 100 people. They can come and go throughout the day. I'll set up at 8am I'll be there till 4 or 5pm And I'm just there whenever they're ready. And nine times out of 10 when I do that, you'll get folks who will trickle in and, you know, get a couple of headshots here and there. I've had people who I don't I don't count headshots. So I've had people who will come. They love the headshot because we give it to them instantly. They love the headshot. They'll leave and then come back in a different outfit and take another headshot and then leave. I've had people who've done that, places like, okay, well, I'm gonna be back this afternoon. Dress as something else. Or if I'm multi day, okay, I'm getting one today, I'm gonna get one tomorrow. I'm gonna get one today. So, you know, and so then it's about, you know, availability, making it available for them. I get paid more, but it's also a lot lower intensity because I'm there all day, and I don't have to worry about it being a line or rush because people are typically only gonna come in during the breaks. It'll be. Be pretty quick. But then you have some people who have budget constraints and say, well, you know, 3500 is kind of a lot. I. I have done 100 head shots in less than two hours.
- [39:51]
B
Wow. Yeah.
- [39:52]
C
Actually, I did it. I did a photo line one time where I did 75 and 23 minutes, but that was a different. That was a different situation.
- [39:58]
B
Right.
- [40:00]
C
But, you know, it really depends on, you know, what the ask is, because it's like, again, going back to being the solution. If you need it in a certain timeframe, we only have this window. Can it be done? Yes. Will it be intense also? Yes. So it really depends.
- [40:18]
B
Yeah, yeah, it does depend. It does depend. It depends on. Do they just want one photo? Am I. Cause I'm. I. I haven't really done as much high volume as you, and I. I don't give them the photos instantly. So I'm doing it in a completely. Where I'm coming home, I'm editing, I'm sending them the photo, you know, so it's. Yeah. Because I've had some clients, like corporate clients, where they'll say, okay, we're gonna pay for one headshot. And I'm like, well, I'm gonna take six to eight beautiful headshots of each person, and then they can upsell. I'm talking if there's like 30 people, or, I'm sorry, they can purchase more if there's like 200 people. That's just way, way too much. But, like, there's so many different ways that you can do it. So it just depends on what feels right to you, I guess.
- [41:06]
C
So I will push back that.
- [41:10]
B
That 200 is way too much.
- [41:12]
C
No. Yeah, so we did one with 6, 600. I've got one coming with 800. But with the high volume headshots, the reason I push back on like how you structure it is twofold. One, I don't think people care as much about edited headshots as you think. Right. If you set up a great looking head. So for me, my biggest thing on photography, and I preach this to a lot of folks, is getting your riding camera. Yeah, there should be editing. You know, you have to edit some things but fly away from the closer you can get it in camera. Yeah, yeah, the closer you can even color all of that. Like if you, the closer you can get it to being what you want in camera, the better it is for you when you get to post because you don't have to do too much. But for me too, I also, when I'm doing these headshot boosts, I've switched over to using LED lighting. So it's really what you see is what you get. So like I'm setting it up, there's no flash. I see exactly what the shot's gonna look like. I can fix it all up there. So when I'm sending you that photo, it's almost to a final photo. The only step would be probably, you know, cleaning up some flyaways and smoothing some skin for sure. And so I have had some clients when they like, let's say if a corporate company brings me in and says, hey, we've got 65 people, I'll do their photos, I'll send it to them in real time. And then when I get home, I'll toss it in a voto and copy paste, let that do the process of doing the editing part. Right. And then I'm just outloading those, exporting done. Because the systems of AI and things are so much more advanced now. It's not like back in the days of old where I used to have to grab an Excel spreadsheet to get everybody's email list and then plug that in and then figure out whose headshot goes with what number and go edit each one of those. And then I've done the preliminary edits in Lightroom and then I took it into Photoshop and retouched it. And now after doing 30 headshots, it took me three days. Now I can give you that unedited head shot in real time. And if the company who hired me is fine with you having it unedited, I'm done. When I leave, I cut the computer off, go home. Or if they want an edit, I go home. I've already decided ahead of time in camera which ones I'm going to edit. And then I drop that into the system, let that run its process and upload it. And it makes it, you know, streamlines it for me, but also makes it a really quick solution for the client. And they get so excited about it. And now, you know, Voto has a system where you can actually do that instantly as well. So that even takes it a step further for making it a lot easier for you. So it's really the high volume headshot thing has become more of like how much time are you willing to spend? And that's going to depend on how much y' all are willing to pay.
- [43:45]
B
You seem really good at systems, like efficiency systems, figuring out what program is going to work better to like deliver instant images for editing. I love Evoto as well. Like you seem really great at that, at just getting your system so that it is a well oiled machine. I love that.
- [44:09]
C
Thank you very much. Funny, when I was starting off in college, I actually started as an engineering major. Industrial engineering, which is very keyed around systems. I did not graduate engineering, but that's kind of where it started. And a lot of people always make the joke that most engineers become photographers because it's the most technical creative space. And then on top of that, I've just had really good people around me over time. And so for me, I'm always looking for ways to make it easier on myself because I do know that I'm pulled in so many different ways. And so if I didn't have softwares that could help me edit faster, if I did not have systems in place to manage certain things, it would be utter chaos. Don't get me wrong, it is also still utter chaos because I am all over the place. I'm a tornado.
- [44:54]
B
Totally. I just sent an email out in my list where I was like, I met this girl at a wedding, she was the wedding photographer and we'd been following each other online for a while. She's like, we have to meet up. What's your schedule usually like? And I was like, I literally have no idea. She's like, really? You seem so organized. And my husband was behind us and I was like, babe, come here. Am I organized? And we both died laughing like anyways, it's just funny how what you present online makes you look a certain way and I am an absolute tornado. So it's good to hear that even though you have systems in place, you still feel the chaos. Sorry, go ahead.
- [45:32]
C
And I will. I will say probably 80% of the things I have set up were set up by someone else. Like I know how to hire like a V. A VA or an assistant or something somewhere who knows what they're doing, who helps me create the system. Like, that has been like my. My contracts and invoices and all of those things were set up by my VA years ago. And then I just, you know, switched them platforms when I switched over to Honeybook. I have. I have a link now. I did set this up myself. I have a link for every meeting type I have. You want to call if you want a meeting, if you want to book an appointment, if you want to book our studio, et cetera. They all have their own separate links where I could just send you the thing. You could do it yourself. Another good thing I do about my system, the process that makes it easier on me is I always put it back on the client, and I don't think they notice that. But if there's something where it's like, this is something that needs to be done, I put it on the client to do it. Oh, you want to schedule an appointment? Here's the link. You schedule that. Let me know when to show up. Because if I have to figure it out, it's going to be 10 days before you hear from me again. So.
- [46:33]
B
Right. I will say if you've got a lot of inquiries and things happening. Yes. I. If you're just starting out, I just want to clarify. Sometimes you have to chase people down.
- [46:46]
C
Yeah.
- [46:46]
B
You know, but once you get to that point. Yeah, yeah, but once you get to that point. Oh, so wonderful that you're just like, schedule it, do it. I'll be there. Yeah. That's fantastic.
- [46:58]
C
Agreed.
- [46:59]
B
Awesome. All right, well, thank you. This has been really, really great. I feel like we could have you back on just to talk all about the different programs, systems, platforms, like everything that works for you. Cause this is a. It's a big thing. It's a big thing that people don't know what to use, like how to. Like I use Intagged. Do you use Intagged? It's a little device. I've never heard of it. It's actually got photo. Bought it now, but it's a little device. And I can rename the photos in my camera. I put it in the metadata and it renames to the person's name immediately. It's amazing. Like, we should do. We should do that. We should do an episode one day where we just talk about all the things that work for us.
- [47:41]
C
One of the biggest things that I feel like is underutilized by all photographers as Canon, Nikon, you know, Sony. Whichever you shoot is the rate button on your camera. Like, it's one thing. I love what you're talking about with tagging, but I. Every time I bring up the rate button to people, they're always, like, in awe. Like, this is just some magical, like, ooh, what is the rate button? One thing that I do when I shoot on site, especially for events, large events, weddings, anything. I don't like culling images. I feel like culling images is a waste of time. And I think it's interesting that all of the AI coming out now centered around, like, how do we help you cull images? You can literally call the images yourself in real time. Like, as I take pictures, I just put them one on the one that looks good. You're usually taking three or four pictures of the same thing. I just put one on whichever one was the best one. And I do it as. Yeah, you just start. And I do that throughout the day. So when I get home and I've got a thousand photos, and then I just look at the ones that I rated only that I felt like were the best. I now have 150 or 200 photos, and I don't have to ever look at them other ones ever again. They don't exist. And there are so many photographers who just don't even think to do that. And it's like, that's such a simple thing that saves you literally an hour of your time.
- [48:49]
B
Such good advice.
- [48:49]
C
Or the cost of getting it culled by AI or what have you. Like, yeah, it's so simple.
- [48:55]
B
I love it. I love that feature, too. Awesome. All right, well, thank you. Like I said, we'll have to come back again and do more systems talk, but for now, I have four questions that I always ask at the end of each episode. And the first one is, what is something you can't live without when you're doing a photo shoot?
- [49:14]
C
My wife did not live without my wife.
- [49:16]
B
What's your wife's name?
- [49:17]
C
She is Kristen Collins. She is my why of why I even showed up to this photo shoot. And so, you know, being able to kind of keep her in mind and know that what I'm doing is help helping provide for our family. Having a why in general is a huge thing for me.
- [49:35]
B
I love that. Okay. Number two is how do you spend your time when you're not working?
- [49:40]
C
When I'm not working, I like to play PlayStation with my friends. I wouldn't say I'm a huge gamer. We play Call of Football. Excuse me, college football. 26. You know, we've been in, we've got like three or four leagues going and we're just playing like year round. Before that we were on Call of Duty. Really heavy. I kind of want us to go back to Call of Duty. I miss it. But yeah, I'm a gamer.
- [50:03]
B
All right. Fun, Cool. All right, number three is what is a photography specific product that you would recommend for people to have?
- [50:12]
C
I think I have said it enough on this edit, on this podcast, but it's going to be Evoto. Evoto is like it's the new hotness, it's the new kid on the block and it is quickly taking over. I'm going to predict it here. Yes, for sure. I'm gonna predict it here. Probably within the next year. It would not shock me or surprise me if they figure out a way to use AI to edit videos for you. And when they do that, take all of my money, however much it costs, I'm in.
- [50:44]
B
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I love Evoto. Love, love, love.
- [50:48]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're rolling out color correction now. I think it's in beta.
- [50:53]
B
I don't even use a retoucher anymore because of that.
- [50:57]
C
No. Yeah, you want to. So, you know, a lot of my content as of late has been, you know, the scarcity of AI taking over our jobs. It is actually not talked about enough how much AI has replaced the retoucher. My retoucher used to reach out to me like, hey, what new things do you have coming? And they don't even take text or message me anymore. They know it's over. We want something else.
- [51:19]
B
Sorry, sorry, retouchers. But I used to have to wait like 7 to 10 days to get my shoots back and like from a retoucher and it was expensive and now it's a. Sorry, retouchers.
- [51:32]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [51:34]
B
Anyway, okay, number four is what would you tell people who are just starting out?
- [51:40]
C
Keep shooting, put it in practice. You know, you're going to see a lot of information, a lot of people telling you what to do. You have to go out there firsthand with camera in hand and learn it from real world experience. Like there's nothing. There's no workbook, e course YouTube channel that's going to teach you like going out there and doing it for yourself. Take that information, glean it, but get out there and shoot.
- [52:07]
B
100% perfect. Where can people find you online?
- [52:12]
C
You can find me online on all platforms. JCI Creatives. That's JCI Creatives with an S. Fantastic.
- [52:19]
B
Well, thanks again, Jaron. I'm glad we met. Eating sandwiches at, I don't know, one or two in the morning in Vegas. At wpbs.
- [52:28]
C
The best things happen at. Well, maybe not the best thing, but
- [52:31]
B
you know, sometimes connections are made.
- [52:34]
C
Sometimes the best things happen. Yes.
- [52:36]
B
I love it. Well, thank you again. This has been wonderful. And I'm gonna check out your YouTube channel.
- [52:41]
C
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.
- [52:44]
A
Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System podcast. Your five star review really help us to continue what we do. So if you like listening, would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? I also encourage you to head over to subriceeducation.com where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1000 on demand educational videos on things like posing, lighting, styling, retouching, shooting, marketing, sales, business and self value. There's also the 90 day startup channel plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses. We have to do checklists for your business, lighting, PDFs. I mean truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once Again, that's Sue briceducation.com.