Podcast
The Pragmatic Designers
Hosted by Exploring how creatives build fulfilling and sustainable careers. · EN
Hi, we're Desai and Thuan, best friends from architecture school and early career designers on a journey to discover how to build creatively fulfilling and financially sustainable careers. We are super excited to share with you notes from our podcast, and hope you’ll subscribe for bi-monthly updates!
thepragmaticdesigners.substack.com
thepragmaticdesigners.substack.com
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Episodes
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From Academia to Modular Futures | Victor Tzen
Sep 2401:01:23Tap to summarizeHi, we're Desai and Thuan, best friends from architecture school and early career designers on a journey to discover how to build creatively fulfilling and financially sustainable careers. We are super excited to share with you notes from our podcast, and hope you’ll subscribe for bi-monthly updates!In this episode, we talk with Victor Tzen, Senior Architecture Program Manager at Samara. Victor’s career spans teaching at Syracuse University, design leadership at Google’s R+D Lab for the Built Environment, and nearly a decade at Bohlin Cywinski Jackson, where he worked on flagship Apple Stores across New York, Paris, and Cologne.From Academia to R+DVictor started his career during the 2008 recession, when teaching at Syracuse became both a practical and formative path. In the classroom, he discovered a love for organizing and running large studios — a skill that later shaped his leadership in practice. His move to Bohlin Cywinski Jackson sharpened his detailing and material sensibilities while exposing him to world-class clients and consultants. It was here that he caught the first spark of R+D, experimenting with lighting and sensor systems that hinted at a bigger future.Finding R+D CommunitiesAt Google, Victor dove into multidisciplinary R+D at scale, collaborating with engineers, scientists, and artists to rethink the workplace. He describes this as a turning point: learning how to define problems in undefined spaces, and how to navigate large organizations with many competing agendas.The Future of Living at SamaraToday at Samara, Victor is exploring how design for manufacture and assembly (DFMA) and modular construction might reshape the way we live. Rather than prescribing solutions, Samara’s approach focuses on creating tools and scalable systems — from ADUs to multi-generational housing models — that empower people to imagine alternate futures of living. With policy, culture, and technology finally aligning, Victor believes industrialized housing is on the cusp of breakthrough in the U.S.“Don’t be afraid to take a step backwards in order to take a big leap forward.” Advice for DesignersVictor encourages young designers to:* Follow what excites you, even if it looks unconventional.* Apply for roles that feel out of reach — “fake it till you make it” often leads to the best growth.* Accept that detours and even “steps back” can become the biggest leaps forward.While Victor frequently travels for work, you can find him on LinkedIn — or maybe at a music shop in the Bay Area.→ Learn more about Levittown and the Imperfect Rise of American Suburbs.→ Explore Habitat 67 and the modular design and construction.→ Ordos City in Mongolia.→ The compositions of John Field, discovered through pianist Alice Sara Ott.→ Dominion (deck-building game) and Wingspan (resource-building game). This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thepragmaticdesigners.substack.com
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Minimizing Regret and Reframing Risks | Colleen Chang
Aug 2600:48:10Tap to summarizeIn this episode we sat down with Colleen Chang, founder, writer, and builder, to explore her journey from engineering student to co-founder at Tuuli, a AI software start-up enhancing AEC workflows. She shares honest lessons about navigating risk, growth, and purpose.Rethinking Success and Compounding Small BetsColleen’s story begins during the pandemic, when she realized that the traditional formula of grades, graduate school, and a stable career did not align with the life she wanted to build. Instead of operating on autopilot, she began to think deeply about how to allocate her time toward experiences that mattered to her. This led to a series of small but significant pivots. Switching from civil engineering to computer science, seeking out fellowship programs, and pursuing opportunities outside of the classroom all became ways of moving closer to the future she envisioned. Rather than waiting for a single big leap, Colleen built momentum through a series of smaller choices that compounded over time.The Power of Community and Reframing RiskA key part of Colleen’s journey has been finding communities that inspired her to think bigger. Programs such as Cansbridge and Next36 placed her alongside peers who were prioritizing side projects, startups, and unconventional paths over grades and traditional markers of success. By putting herself in environments where ambition and experimentation were the norm, she was able to expand her sense of what was possible. Alongside this, she reframed her understanding of risk. What felt risky on the surface, such as pursuing a startup, was far less dangerous than the hidden risk of stagnation—remaining in a role that did not allow her to grow or create meaningful impact. Through this lens of regret minimization, she chose to bet on herself early, before life brought additional obligations that might have made such choices harder.From Exploration to MasteryColleen’s journey also reflects the balance between being a generalist and becoming a specialist. In her early years, she gave herself permission to explore broadly, testing different interests in sustainability, engineering, and design. Exploration helped her discover where her energy naturally flowed and what problems she cared most about solving. Once she found that intersection of skills, value, and growth potential, she began to dive deeper and commit fully. This has led her into the world of startups, where she has embraced not only the technical side of product development but also the surprising and deeply human aspects of sales and storytelling. For Colleen, sales is not about being the loudest voice in the room, but about practicing empathy, understanding problems deeply, and helping others find solutions that truly serve them. Storytelling has also become central to her growth, both in building her company and in shaping how others understand her vision for the future.The Importance of Rest and Human ConnectionEven in the intensity of startup life, Colleen emphasizes the value of rest and non-metric driven joy. Running, meditation, hosting dinners, and spending time with friends provide balance and creative fuel. These moments of slowing down remind her that not everything has to be optimized for growth or outcomes. They are essential for sustaining a clear mind, maintaining perspective, and nurturing a sense of purpose beyond work. Rest, she argues, is not wasted time but an investment in resilience and long-term creativity.Actionable TipAdopt a regret minimization framework. When faced with a decision, ask: Years from now, what would I regret more—taking this chance and failing, or never trying at all? This simple shift helps transform fear of failure into motivation to act.To practice, try thinking of times when it was difficult to make a decision, or when you felt very conflicted. If you used the regret minimization framework, how would you have made your decision? Would it have been similar, or different?Connect with Colleen on LinkedIn and Instagram (@colleen_sora)! This article accompanies our podcast episode featuring Colleen Chang. You can listen to it here on Substack, or through Spotify and Apple Music.References:* Strive: College Students’ Revelations During a Global Pandemic by Colleen Chang* Cansbridge Fellowship* Next36 Founder Development Program* Tuuli (startup creating AI tools for architects, which Colleen co-founded with Vit and Arpan) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thepragmaticdesigners.substack.com
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Getting Real: Behind the Mic with Desai and Thuan
Aug 900:36:57Tap to summarizeHi, we're Desai and Thuan, best friends from architecture school and early career designers on a journey to discover how to build creatively fulfilling and financially sustainable careers. We are super excited to share with you notes from our podcast, and hope you’ll subscribe for bi-monthly updates!Why We StartedFrom Cornell studios to Rome apartments, we’ve always collaborated. The podcast began as a way to explore how design thinking applies beyond architecture—and to share those paths with students and early-career creatives.The Wall We HitAfter 8 episodes, we’ve had 454 downloads and 14 subscribers. We’re proud of the start, but reaching our target audience—students and recent grads—has been tough. LinkedIn posts mostly reach peers and seniors, not the people who’d benefit most. Add demanding day jobs and 10+ hours to produce each episode, and momentum isn’t easy to keep.How We’re AdaptingIn this episode, we brainstormed ways forward:* Slack community for listeners to connect. (Update: The Slack channel is live, join here → The Pragmatic Designers Community.)* Live streams & workshops to share skills (cold outreach, navigating corporate culture).* Practical solo episodes alongside interviews.* Short-form content on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube Shorts to attract new listeners.Why Share This?We believe in showing the process, not just the polish. Building something from scratch is messy—and that’s worth talking about. As Thuan says: “If we were doing this alone, the podcast probably would have been dead a month ago. Doing it together keeps us excited.”If you’ve been listening—thank you for sticking with us in our “ugly duckling” phase. Your feedback means everything. Connect with usDesai → desaiwang.com & LinkedIn.Thuan → thuanla.com & LinkedIn.Join our Slack channel here → The Pragmatic Designers Community.Listen to this episode on Substack, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thepragmaticdesigners.substack.com
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Design Beyond Aesthetics | Thaddeus Lee
Jul 2500:55:01Tap to summarizeThis week, we talk with Thaddeus Lee, a Play Inventor at LEGO’s Creative Play Lab. Have you ever wondered how aesthetics emerge from culture? What does empathy-driven design look like? How do you balance bold ideas with business reality? Whether you're establishing your design values or wondering how to turn ideas into products, this episode is for you!Reimagining Design and Redefining Value“Design is optimistic—it’s the belief that you can do something just a little better.”Thaddeus’ journey from architecture studios at Yale and MIT to now leading innovation at LEGO’s Creative Play Lab reflects this philosophy. For him, design isn’t just about the final product, nor is it limited to making things look good. Instead, design is a form of creative problem solving, a way of thinking that can be applied to buildings, toys, businesses, and even careers.Throughout his journey, Thaddeus has used design to question established narratives, including the narrow definitions of success that often shape creative fields. “It doesn’t matter what kind of business you’re going for—nonprofit, B2B, or direct-to-consumer—there’s always some kind of value you’re trying to define with design.” In other words, design is not just about aesthetics. More so, it’s about articulating and delivering value.And yet, “value” itself is not a fixed concept. Thaddeus speaks to the importance of understanding both internal values (what you personally care about as a designer) and external values (what your audience, collaborators, or employer prioritizes).“Everybody’s going to have an opinion on whether your design is good. As long as you know what you value as a designer and you’re achieving those goals, that’s a good place to start.”This self-awareness not only grounds your practice, but also helps you choose opportunities that align with your beliefs and challenge you to grow. In some cases, you may need to adapt your ideas to fit the business or organizational context you’re working in. At the LEGO Group, for instance, the role of designers in the Creative Play Lab is to help prove that a new idea is playful, but also meaningful and viable. “The challenge,” Thaddeus says, “is to not just pitch the vision, but figure out how to get there—whether you have $20,000 or a million.”To reimagine design, then, is also to reimagine value not as a singular truth, but as a dynamic negotiation between what matters to you and what matters to the world.Aesthetics as By-ProductWe also discussed the value of aesthetics, and its importance in the design field. “Aesthetic is not an end in itself but a by-product of good design,” Thaddeus explains. His time at Yale emphasized formal aesthetics, while MIT’s culture focused on experimentation: “MIT’s aesthetic isn’t curated. It emerges from the culture. It’s incredibly brainy, incredibly experimental, and not really conscious about the aesthetic it produces.”This view liberates designers from obsessing over style. Instead, Thaddeus believes in focusing on solving meaningful problems. “Hopefully you’re thinking about the user, sustainability, computational tools, other ways of doing things.” Aesthetics, he says, will emerge naturally from the rigor of the process.Further, Thaddeus elaborates about defining the value of design.A Human Centered ApproachFor Thaddeus, design is fundamentally relational. It is not about asserting authority or imposing taste, but about empathy. Good design involves understanding others and offering them a glimpse into your perspective.“You’re not there to dictate what is good design. You’re there to invite people into your world, to let them see why it matters.”This approach guides his work at LEGO, where early-stage prototypes are tested directly with children. Watching how they engage, often with joy, unpredictability, and honesty, offers powerful insight. “There are these incredible moments where I get to put them in front of actual kids and see how they react,” he shares. “The value there is being able to bring joy to a playful moment.”Thaddeus also draws inspiration from Charles and Ray Eames, who treated design as a form of hospitality. Whether through picnics or short films, they believed designers should act as thoughtful hosts, welcoming others into an experience. For Thaddeus, empathy means creating space for others and staying open to the worlds they bring with them.An Actionable TipWe recognize that it’s difficult to translate stories into your own learnings, so beginning with this episode, we will end the accompanying notes an exercise you can try today!Take 10 minutes to write down three things you value most in your design work. These could be principles like clarity, playfulness, social impact, empathy, or experimentation. Then ask yourself:* Are these values showing up in the work you’re doing now?* Do the opportunities you’re pursuing align with them?* Where might you want to recalibrate?This kind of self-check-in is helpful at any stage of your career, especially when you're making a transition, questioning your path, or trying to find your next step.Connect with Thaddeus on LinkedIn or Instagram.This article accompanies our podcast episode featuring Thaddeus Lee. You can listen to it here on Substack, or through Spotify and Apple Music.References:* Sianne Ngai’s book: Our Aesthetic Categories: Zany, Cute, Interesting* Jimenez Lai’s colorful/playful architectural designs* Charles and Ray Eames on design as good host* Article on Lego Creative Play Lab by Inc.com.* Book on testing your ideas quickly: The Right It by Alberto Savoia* Self-Assembly Lab at MIT, led by Skylar Tibbits This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thepragmaticdesigners.substack.com
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From Small Town to Global Newsroom | Hannah Dormido on Mapping Stories That Matter
Jul 1101:39:53Tap to summarizeHi, we're Desai and Thuan, best friends from architecture school and early career designers on a journey to discover how to build creatively fulfilling and financially sustainable careers. We are super excited to share with you notes from our podcast, and hope you’ll subscribe for bi-monthly updates!This week, we spoke with Hannah Dormido, a multi-award-winning data journalist and cartographer at The Washington Post. Hannah’s storytelling career began with childhood spelling bees and school newspapers, and has since spanned Bloomberg, the Financial Times, and leading news coverage on everything from climate to protests to geopolitics.But her story isn’t just about professional accolades, it’s about betting on yourself, learning in public, and holding space for creativity, uncertainty, and community.From Local Roots to Global StoriesHannah’s career began not with a map, but with a story of her own. After graduating early with distinction from UP Diliman, she quickly rose through the ranks of journalism, first at the Financial Times, then Bloomberg News in Hong Kong, and now at The Washington Post.Her reporting spans financial flows, science and tech, natural disasters, and climate change. But across all domains, her work stays grounded in clarity and intention. Every project starts with a central question: What story are we really trying to tell, and why does it matter?Let Curiosity Lead YouHannah didn’t set out to become a visual journalist. Trained in traditional print and hard news, she stumbled into data visualization while working at the Financial Times. What started as an opportunity to learn Illustrator turned into a turning point that shaped the next decade of her career.From making line charts in Manila to cartography on global stages, she taught herself tools like QGIS via YouTube and Twitter, often after-hours and driven purely by curiosity.“I didn’t train for this—I taught myself how to make maps because no one else was going to invest in me but me.”From Invisible to SeenDespite her talent, Hannah often battled imposter syndrome—doubting whether companies would invest in someone with a weak passport, self-taught skills, and no formal cartography degree. It took mentors, a supportive partner, and dozens of “just try” moments for her to begin owning her worth.One pivotal moment came when a senior cartographer told her, “You are a cartographer. Say it.” Since then, she’s practiced claiming the title she once resisted.Visual Journalism Is JournalismAt both Bloomberg and the Post, Hannah helped shift the perception of visual journalists from “support roles” to “reporters in their own right.” Today, she writes, researches, visualizes, and sometimes even builds the pages her stories live on.Whether she’s mapping protests in Hong Kong, exploring global heatwaves, or creating hand-drawn art for her community fundraiser, Hannah’s work is grounded in purpose and precision.“We don’t just make pretty charts. We add value to the reporting—and help readers truly understand what’s happening.”Invest in Yourself (Even When It’s Uncomfortable)From staging a 3AM job interview on her birthday in a Hong Kong hotel, to launching Studio 6101 to support her mom’s community outreach, Hannah embodies what it means to show up fully—messy, real, and all-in.Her advice to young creatives?* Find mentors who are honest, kind, and invested in your growth.* Ask questions—even when it’s uncomfortable.* When you're ready, be that mentor for someone else.Hannah painted this floral piece straight onto a shower curtain from her balcony and she didn’t stop until it was done. → Instagram post Connect with Hannah on LinkedIn and explore her amazing works at hannahdormido.com and @byhannahdormido @dormidomaps on Instagram. Check out Hannah’s Tiktok @hannahdormido where she regularly shares her ChitChart talks and newly published maps visualizing current social and political events. This article accompanies our podcast episode featuring Hannah Dreyfus Dormido. You can listen to it here on Substack, or through Spotify and Apple Music.References:* Eames Lounge Chair and Ottoman, Herman Miller* Steven Bernard, Senior Visual Journalist at the Financial Times* ChitChart, Hannah’s series discussing the behind-the-scenes of how charts, maps, and visual storytelling are created.* Daisy Chung & her Pulitzer Prize winning article on Fentanyl Supply Chain Process* Desai’s website featuring her blog and sketches: desaiwang.com* Thuan’s website featuring her watercolor paintings and photography: thuanla.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thepragmaticdesigners.substack.com
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Melanie Imfeld | Curiosity, Storytelling, and Charting Your Own Course
Jun 2700:46:10Tap to summarizeThis week, we spoke with Melanie Imfeld, a map design lead at Mapbox. Trained in architecture and urban design at ETH Zurich and UCL, Mel's journey has taken her through master-planning, digital product strategy, map design and team leadership. At every step, she's stayed grounded in curiosity and storytelling, and her reflections offer a compelling roadmap for navigating nonlinear creative careers.Storytelling Across DomainsMel began her career in architecture, but the seeds of her interdisciplinary approach were planted early. At ETH, she was exposed to a wide range of disciplines including math, economics, art history, which gave her a critical lens to spatial problems. She furthered sharpened this lens during her time at the Zurich city planning office, where she examined zoning, demographics, and transportation data to understand complex geospatial systems.After pursuing a masters’ in spatial data science at University College London (UCL), she joined Accenture as a Digital Transformation Analyst. While helping translate technical Request for Proposals (RFPs) into visual narratives for clients at Accenture , she realized the fundamental similarity between urban design and her new role."In urban design, you pitch ideas through stories. At Accenture, I was helping experts do the same—just with technology."Whether she was crafting a masterplan proposal or making complex data accessible to stakeholders, the core skill remained the same: transforming complexity into compelling, understandable narratives.Learning by Doing with PurposeA recurring theme in Mel's journey is how personal projects became the backbone of her professional growth, balancing pure curiosity with targeted skill development. Whether it was experimenting with map styles in D3.js or building an interface that exploded resumes into letter soups, each creative detour taught her something tangible, whether it was about animation, interactivity, or rendering performance, that eventually translated into more serious work."I'm a very applied learner. A project gives me an excuse to learn something new," she says. Rather than approaching learning as a checklist of skills to acquire, Mel emphasizes doing projects that feel personally compelling and letting the skills follow naturally. This intentional approach to learning carried her through creative coding, her time at Recurse Center, and now her work at Mapbox—each step building toward a clear purpose, even when the path wasn't obvious.From Individual Contributor to Manager—Without Losing the SparkToday, Mel leads a globally distributed team of map designers, but the transition from individual designer to manager hasn't dimmed her enthusiasm for the craft. If anything, it's deepened her appreciation for the design challenges at the heart of mapping."Designing navigation maps is fascinating. It's full of constraints, which actually makes it a more exciting design challenge."Rather than seeing management as a departure from design, she views it as expanding her impact on the same problems that originally drew her to the field.Her approach to management centers on a simple but powerful principle: helping others do their best work by truly understanding both the technology and the human behind it. This isn't about enforcing performance metrics or barking orders about KPIs. She explains:"Unblocking people is a big part of my job. And that means really understanding what they're working on."Having started out as a map designer herself gives her the technical fluency to dive deep into roadmap planning, review tricky visual details, and provide the kind of contextual support that empowers her team rather than micromanages them. It's management through empathy and expertise, not authority.Turning Your Unconventional Background Into Your SuperpowerMel admits that early in her career, her unconventional resume felt like a liability. Without a clear through-line from architecture to urban planning to data visualization to product design, it was difficult to position herself for roles that demanded specialization. The turning point came when she began seeing her eclectic background as a strength. She reflects:"Before I could convince others, I had to convince myself."The act of crafting a narrative became crucial. Instead of apologizing for her non-traditional path, she learned to articulate how her diverse experiences created unique value. Her architecture training gave her spatial thinking skills. Her urban planning work taught her to navigate complex, interconnected systems. Her time at Accenture showed her how to translate technical complexity into accessible stories.Communities like the Recurse Center reinforced this mindset, showing her that success doesn't always come from following a set path, but from building your own. The key was learning to tell her story with confidence, highlighting the connections between seemingly disparate experiences.Combating Uncertainty: Balance Exploration with JoyFor early-career designers facing the inevitable uncertainty of a non-linear path, Mel offers both practical and philosophical advice. On the practical side: embrace the ambiguity. Try things. Move to a new city. Take that unconventional job. The traditional path isn't going anywhere, and the early part of your career is often the most flexible. She emphasizes:"You can always get a conventional job later. This is the time to explore."But perhaps more importantly, she recommends a strategy for combating the stress and doubt that comes with uncertainty: balance your job search with joy. Pursue small creative projects, hobbies, or experiments that reconnect you with your curiosity. These moments of personal exploration serve two purposes. They remind you why you chose a creative career in the first place, and they often lead to unexpected professional opportunities.The message is clear: uncertainty isn't something to endure, it's something to leverage. Your unconventional background isn't a bug, it's a feature. And the story you tell about your journey matters as much as the journey itself.Connect with Mel through LinkedIn, or if you’re in SF, you might find her at Farley’s Coffeehouse.This article accompanies our podcast episode featuring Melanie Imfeld. You can listen to it here on Substack, or through Spotify and Apple Music.References:Carlo Ratti, director of Carlo Ratti Associates and the Senseable City LabUCL The Bartlett Center for Advanced Spatial Analysis (CASA), which Michael Batty founded and directed until 2010The Recurse Center, a programming retreat in NYCd3.js, a popular JavaScript library for data visualizationBlender explorations of landscape flythroughs by Wendy Shijia.Helena Zhang’s phosphor icons.Nat Slaughter, Mel’s former Mapbox colleague who now designs maps at Apple. He was featured on an episode of Very Expensive Maps, where he talks about collecting and mapping squirrel census data in NYC.Daniel Schiffman, who creates fun and beginner-friendly creative coding tutorials on his Youtube channel The Coding Train. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thepragmaticdesigners.substack.com
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All Work, All Play | Arjun Mahesh
Jun 1300:47:05Tap to summarizeIn this episode, we talk with Arjun Mahesh, Head of Design at Hebbia—an AI research company helping analysts go from questions to answers in seconds. From Frank Gehry’s office to Kickstarter, Stripe, Verse, and now Hebbia, Arjun’s path has taken him through nearly every type of design role across industries.From Architecture to AI DesignArjun studied architecture and computer science, but quickly realized his passion wasn’t tied to just one discipline. After working on complex digital modeling for Frank Gehry’s firm, he pivoted into product design—drawn by the speed, creativity, and freedom of the tech world.“I still love architecture. But I wanted to build things faster—and actually see them launch.”He joined a design bootcamp, moved to New York, and hasn’t looked back since.From Freelancing to Leading at ScaleAcross his career, Arjun has worked in agencies, big tech, and early-stage startups. Each phase offered a different kind of learning:* Agencies taught him how to move fast and pitch big ideas* Stripe taught him how to operate at scale and build stakeholder trust* Startups taught him how to bet on himself, own the outcome, and keep the team inspired“At Stripe, I learned doing good work is only half the job. Building trust and relationships is the other half.”Today, he leads Hebbia’s design team, shaping how AI can augment—not replace—human judgment in research-heavy fields like finance and law.Designing for AI, with AIArjun shares how designing with AI is messy, nonlinear, and full of ambiguity—but also full of creative possibility.“Designing for AI feels less like engineering and more like a science experiment. The outputs aren’t predictable, and that’s what makes it fun.”He’s also experimenting with AI tools like Midjourney and V0.dev to speed up exploration, challenge default patterns, and reimagine what interaction can look like in an AI-first world.More Than Just WorkOutside of Hebbia, Arjun makes music, DJs, writes a music newsletter, and trains for marathons.“I procrastinate by working on other projects. If I get stuck on one thing, I shift. But I always come back when I see the end.”His philosophy? Make time for play—and trust that creativity flows across everything you do.Arjun is currently hiring designers at Hebbia. You can explore open roles at design.hebbia.com, and connect with him on LinkedIn.This article accompanies our latest podcast episode featuring Arjun Mahesh. You can listen to it here on Substack, or find us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.References:Eli Horne, Arjun’s past manager at Kickstarter who’s now leading design at Maven Clinic Collaborators at Stripe: Brad Haynes (principal designer), Rod Naber (product designer), Katie Dill (Head of Design) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thepragmaticdesigners.substack.com
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Technology for Public Good | Toby Gail
May 3000:50:12Tap to summarizeWe had the pleasure of speaking with Toby Gail, a product designer at Open Government Products (OGP) in Singapore. OGP acts like a startup within the Singapore government, and focuses on building tech products for public good. In our conversation, Toby shared valuable insights about her career growth, creating products for frontline workers like nurses and firefighters, and building inclusive communities in the design world.From Consultancy to In-House: A Designer's EvolutionToby's career journey began at Foolproof, a design consultancy where she developed foundational skills while working across diverse industries. This consultancy experience proved invaluable, exposing her to different markets and consumer behaviors from Singapore to Hong Kong to Thailand. Each month brought a new product challenge, accelerating her growth through variety.When Toby moved to Singapore Airlines, she encountered the complexities of a large, established organization. She learned to identify "levers" – key stakeholders who could help implement designs – and navigate siloed teams across hierarchical structures. The contrast became apparent when she joined OGP, where smaller, tighter teams allowed her to focus on relationship building and what she calls "glue work" – forming connections with individual team members and helping engineers feel invested in the user experience.The Power of Human-Centered Design in GovernmentAt Open Government Products, Toby works in an environment that accelerates digital transformation through a flatter, less bureaucratic structure than typical government departments. It's a space where people can experiment with new technologies, management techniques, and cultural norms to solve public sector problems more effectively.Currently, Toby focuses on Armory, a digital platform streamlining operational checklists for critical frontline workers like firefighters and nurses. When Toby and her team visited fire stations, they discovered firefighters struggling with hefty paper binders to conduct equipment checks before shifts. These manual processes not only slowed down emergency responders but created siloed data that headquarters couldn't easily analyze for compliance or improvement. By digitizing these workflows, Armory helps frontliners complete necessary tasks faster and return to their core mission of saving lives, while simultaneously generating valuable analytics that leadership can use to improve operations across the system.Driving Product Adoption in Traditional OrganizationsThe process of bringing digital innovation to traditional organizations requires both technical skill and emotional intelligence. Toby emphasizes:"The bulk of our work really is just convincing people that there's a better way to do things."Success in this arena starts with finding champions – people who aren't afraid to convert frustrations into positive action, asking "why not?" instead of "why should we change?" These allies help move mountains within organizations resistant to change. With champions identified, Toby advocates starting small and iterating, following the philosophy of "fail fast, but scale slowly."Toby recalls a conversation with a rehabilitation nurse who told her:"We don't change processes unless something bad happens."This mindset highlighted the challenge of implementing change in established institutions. Toby's approach balances pushing for better solutions while implementing proper processes through small pilots and gradual scaling. Perhaps most crucial is the storytelling aspect – understanding stakeholders' concerns and emotions, then framing solutions to address these concerns while making everyone feel heard.Recharging Love for Design Through Community BuildingBeyond her day job, Toby finds purpose in community building as a way to reconnect with what sparked her passion for design initially. She founded The Good Circle in late 2023 to support women and non-binary people in tech, creating a space where people could discuss their experiences without having to "go through the hoops of trying to convince someone of the validity of their experiences."The initiative grew from personal frustration with gender bias in the industry, backed by research showing that high-performing women receive significantly more personality-based feedback than their male counterparts. What began as a small gathering has blossomed into a supportive community where Toby encourages participants:"This is a place for us to meet as humans, and I encourage you to leave your titles at the door. Here, we don't care if you are a senior, a junior, a director, or if you're just a fresh graduate or a student. Just talk to each other on equal ground and have good conversations tonight."For Toby, these gatherings reignite her passion for design. She finds herself most inspired when speaking with other designers, noting how these interactions help everyone "remember why they started out and keep that fire going" while knowledge pollinates across the industry.Balancing Ambition with PerspectivePerhaps Toby's most profound insight came when discussing career challenges:"On average, humans only live for about 4,000 weeks. At the end of the day, I think a lot of people are extremely passionate about design, about product design, but it is really only a job."This perspective helps Toby avoid beating herself up over failures and maintain a healthy balance. She suggests asking, "Would this matter when I'm on my deathbed?" when facing workplace stress. The answer, she notes, is rarely "I should have spent two more hours polishing that screen."This doesn't mean lowering standards. Rather, it's about finding the balance between doing excellent work and recognizing when "enough is enough." Toby applies this philosophy at OGP, focusing on testing and validating the most important elements rather than polishing everything to perfection. She treats her own growth similarly – viewing herself as a product to be iterated upon through courses, books, and continuous practice, particularly in communication skills, which she believes many designers stop developing too early.By maintaining this balanced perspective while never stopping her professional development, Toby embodies the kind of thoughtful leadership that benefits both individual designers and the broader communities they serve.Connect with Toby on LinkedIn, and check out events from The Good Circle and Singapore Product Design!References:Suanne Chan, design thought leader in Singapore and UX consultant at GovTech Singapore.Adilah Anuar & Tzu Hsuan, hosts of Kiasu Design Life podcastSingpass, digital id app in SingaporeWes Kao on Becoming a Better Communicator (Lenny’s Podcast)Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on It (Chris Voss, former FBI hostage negotiator) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thepragmaticdesigners.substack.com
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From Studio to Site | Je Hyeon Baek
May 16, 202500:37:24Tap to summarizeIn our second podcast episode, we sat down with Je Hyeon Baek, a multidisciplinary project coordinator now working at Zubatkin Owner Representation, a Cumming Group company.Je's story is one of rethinking the role of design after architecture school, and learning how to thrive in a new space—one where relationships, coordination, and curiosity matter just as much as drawing skills.From Design Studio to Military BarracksWhile Je studying architecture at Cornell, he took a two-year break to complete his mandatory military service in South Korea. The experience exposed him to people and perspectives far beyond the design bubble—and helped him see life, career, and collaboration through a new lens.“Living with people so different from me taught me how to interact, how to listen. That skill still holds true today.”When he returned, the contrast between life inside the studio and life outside was impossible to ignore. His curiosity about what else was out there only deepened.When Drawing Buildings Isn’t EnoughAfter graduation, Je joined KPF in New York, where he worked on high-end residential and hospitality projects. The scale was massive—his Miami tower project recently hit $800 million in sales—but he felt removed from the impact.“I laid out every unit in that building. But I’ve never been to Miami. I wanted a more personal relationship with the projects I worked on.”This desire to know the site, to connect with the place and people, sparked a quiet shift.Coffee Chats, Side Classes, and Career ClarityRather than pivot dramatically, Je started small: taking evening real estate classes at NYU and reaching out to friends and mentors who had explored opportunities outside of traditional architectural practice. Through these conversations, he discovered the world of owner’s representation.“I didn’t even know what a lot of job titles meant. The only way to figure it out was to talk to people—friends, colleagues, people doing what I was curious about.”He now works as a project manager on educational and cultural developments, coordinating architects, engineers, contractors, and clients. His days range from budget reconciliations to site walks and troubleshooting building problems.Why the Office Culture Matters Just as Much as the WorkJe credits his current sense of fulfillment not just to the projects, but to the supportive, collaborative office culture.“When something goes wrong, no one’s blaming anyone. You sort it out. You learn. That’s not something I was used to—but it makes all the difference.”For Je, this environment—one that celebrates learning and trust—has been a game-changer.Advice for Young Designers Exploring What’s NextJe doesn’t sugarcoat it: transitioning into new fields like development or project management can be hard without the right experience or degrees. But there are ways to start small: online classes, certificates, and reaching out to people in adjacent roles.“You just have to talk to more people. You don’t lose anything by asking. Worst case? They ignore you. Best case? You learn something that opens a new door.”Whether you’re happy in your current role or thinking about change, Je’s story is a reminder that careers don’t move in straight lines—and sometimes, the most important step is simply asking better questions.Je is currently working on a range of cultural and educational projects across NYC, and continues to support young designers navigating their next steps in the AEC industry. You can connect with him on LinkedIn.This article accompanies our second podcast episode featuring Je Hyeon Baek. You can listen to it here on Substack, or find us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thepragmaticdesigners.substack.com
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Using AI to superpower design | Alexander Kyaw
May 1, 202500:35:44Tap to summarizeIn our first podcast episode, we sat down with Alexander "Alex" Kyaw, an interdisciplinary researcher bridging architecture and computer science at MIT.When Alex arrived at Cornell for his undergraduate, he had barely heard of 3D printers and had never seen a laser cutter. Today, he's pioneering research at MIT that makes complex technologies like AI, VR, and robotics accessible to everyone. His journey offers great insights on navigating the intersection of design and technology.Breaking Out of Prescribed PathWhile his classmates followed the rigorous architecture curriculum at Cornell, Alex was fascinated by the technology that enabled design tools and filed petition after petition to take computer science and information science courses. His advice? If you want to do something interdisciplinary or unconventional, try to advocate for your case even if it might get denied."The rules and policies they set up work for the average [person], but if you need a catered path that you want to explore on your own, it's totally an option."Alex’s quote extends far beyond getting departmental permissions — for anyone working across disciplines, you must get comfortable with navigating ambiguity. Walking the less trodden path can be highly rewarding, but you must have a clear goal in mind and be ready to tackle unexpected challenges along the way.Finding Motivation Through PurposeWorking across fields means confronting an overwhelming amount of potential knowledge to acquire. Alex's solution? Start with the problem, not the technology."The hardest thing when going through a class or learning something new is if you don't know why you're learning it."Rather than focusing on mastering specific technologies, Alex recommends a question-focused approach - identify problems you want to solve first, then learn the technical skills needed to address them.Creating Accessible Technology with AIAlex's most provocative insight concerns how AI is transforming design itself:"AI is essentially undercutting a lot of the execution part of design. The role of designers will soon become going from ideas to output."Where designers once spent years mastering technical skills—CAD modeling, rendering software, post-processing—AI tools are increasingly handling these execution elements. This shift liberates designers to focus on conceptual thinking and ideation, potentially democratizing design by removing technical barriers.This vision resonates deeply with Alex's personal mission to create technologies that augment human capability. His current research focuses on making complex technologies like robotic arms more accessible to those without programming skills. In the past, he has built Curator AI, a platform that uses vision-language models and AR to help people furnish spaces with contextual product recommendations."Most of my projects are about designing in a more natural way," Alex explains. "Thinking about how we might bring a computer into the process without changing how we would normally design or make something.The Courage to Stay on CoursePursuing interdisciplinary research has made Alex highly comfortable with ambiguity, including uncertainty in his own future: "People often say, 'have a 5-year plan,' but I feel like maybe I have a direction of the work that I want to do, not exactly the stepping stones."He has faced his fair share of rejections (broadly speaking, and especially very recently, as he was interviewing for internships in tech), and emphasizes the importance of knowing your worth rather than completely reinventing yourself after each setback:"Every time you face a rejection, you feel like you have to do something different. But oftentimes, if you're changing every single time, you're spending a lot of time reinventing yourself."While others might view rejection as a signal to transform themselves, Alex sees it differently. Not every rejection is a judgment on your worth—sometimes it’s simply a mismatch of timing, team, or context. It’s important to identify the reason behind the rejections, and stay true to the path you've fought so hard to create.Alex's story reminds us that true innovation happens at the edges—where architecture meets computer science, where technical knowledge meets human-centered design, where ambition meets humility. It's in these tension points that we find not just new solutions, but new ways of seeing. As we navigate our own creative careers, perhaps the most powerful tool isn't a particular software or skill, but the confidence to stand in uncertainty, to advocate for unconventional paths, and to recognize that our unique perspective is precisely what makes our contribution valuable.Alex Kyaw recently presented at TEDx Cornell on designing with AI, robotics, and AR, and will be working at Microsoft this summer on AI and human-computer interaction projects. You can connect with him on LinkedIn. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thepragmaticdesigners.substack.com
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