344 – Life in the Fast Lane

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast: Episode 344 – Life in the Fast Lane

Release Date: October 13, 2024
Hosts: Alan Sisto and Don Marshall
Podcast Description: A weekly exploration of J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth legendarium, featuring in-depth discussions, humor, and a passionate community of enthusiasts.

---

1. Introduction and Welcome

Alan Sisto opens the episode with his signature charm, welcoming listeners to Episode 344 of the Prancing Pony Podcast. He humorously refers to the podcast as "the greatest of the podcasts in arts and lore," setting a lighthearted tone for the discussion ahead.

Don Marshall introduces himself as "the obscure Lord of the Rings facts guy" and joins Alan in prepping for the episode's deep dive into Tolkien's appendices. The hosts emphasize their approach of blending detailed lore exploration with humor and pop-culture references, aiming to create an engaging and accessible experience for both new and veteran Tolkien fans.

2. This Week in Tolkien History

Before delving into the main content, Alan and Don provide a historical overview related to Tolkien:

• October 12, 1944: Tolkien writes Letter #84 to his son Christopher, discussing challenges in synchronizing movements of characters like Frodo and others, and mentions his non-legendarium work, Leaf, published in the Dublin Review in January 1945.

  Don Marshall: "I have today sent Leaf by niggle to Dublin Review." [03:38]

• October 13, 1938: Letter #34 to Stanley Unwin reveals Tolkien’s work on a sequel to The Hobbit. Tolkien expresses optimism despite delays, highlighting his commitment to expanding Middle-earth’s narrative.

  Don Marshall: "I still live in hopes that I may be able to submit it early next year." [04:49]

• October 15, 1937: Tolkien responds to feedback on The Hobbit, particularly concerns about its suitability for young readers. He humorously notes changing drawer handles to avoid frightening his daughter with grinning ones.

  Don Marshall: "That is a great letter. End quote." [08:59]

• October 16, 1959: Letter #220 addresses a cat breeder’s request to name Siamese kittens after Middle-earth characters, humorously associating Siamese cats with Mordor’s fauna.

  Don Marshall: "I fear that to me, Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." [10:16]

• October 18, 1894: Commemoration of Geoffrey Bache Smith’s birth, a friend of Tolkien’s who later lost his life in the Battle of the Somme.

3. Exploring Tolkien’s Appendices

The core of the episode revolves around the appendices of The Lord of the Rings, particularly focusing on Appendix A which delves into the history of Numenor and the First Age events outlined in The Silmarillion. Alan and Don discuss:

• Sources and Challenges: Tolkien’s extensive efforts to compile the appendices, grappling with the vastness of Middle-earth’s history and the publisher’s constraints. They reference letters where Tolkien expresses frustration over having to condense his rich lore into the appendices, ultimately leading to the decision to publish The Lord of the Rings without the full appendices.

  Alan Sisto: "The demand such people make would again require a book at least the size of volume one." [26:22]

• Content of the Appendices: A summary of the histories contained within, focusing on the lineage of Elrond and Elros, the founding of Numenor, and the intricate details of the First Age, including the tale of Feanor and the Silmarils.

4. Reading and Summarizing Appendix A

Don Marshall reads a concise summary of The Silmarillion from the appendices, outlining key events and characters:

Don Marshall: "Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore... Against the will of the Valar, Feanor forsook the blessed realm and went in exile to Middle Earth, leading with him a great part of his people..." [35:55]

Alan Sisto comments on the brevity of the summary, noting that while it touches on major points, it understandably omits the rich details fans crave.

5. Deep Dive into Feanor and the Silmarils

The hosts expand on Feanor’s character and his creation of the Silmarils, discussing his pride, the ensuing conflict with Morgoth, and the tragic consequences of his actions:

• Feanor’s Legacy: His unparalleled skill in craftsmanship and the creation of the Silmarils, which contain the light of the Two Trees of Valinor.

  Don Marshall: "Feanor would then swear... a blasphemous oath by the name of Iluvatar, vowing to pursue with vengeance..." [40:50]

• Morgoth’s Theft: Morgoth’s covetousness leads to the theft of the Silmarils, igniting a relentless war between the Eldar, Edain, and Morgoth’s forces.

• Final Fate of the Silmarils: The Silmarils end up in different realms—one shines on Earendil’s brow in the sky, another is submerged in the sea, and the third remains on Earth, symbolizing the intertwined fate of Arda.

6. Elros and Elrond: The Half-Elven Choice

The discussion transitions to Elros and Elrond, the Half-Elven, and their pivotal choice between mortality and immortality:

• Elros’s Choice: Opted for mortality but was granted an extended lifespan, establishing the line of Numenorean kings.

  Alan Sisto: "Elros chose to be of mankind and remain with the Edain, but a great lifespan was granted to him many times that of lesser men." [66:27]

• Elrond’s Choice: Chose to be of Elvenkind, granting him immortality and the ability to sail to the Undying Lands.

  Don Marshall: "Elrond chose to be of Elvenkind and became a master of wisdom." [65:18]

• Impact on Middle-earth: These choices set the foundation for the future of both Elves and Men, influencing the political and social structures within Tolkien’s legendarium.

7. The Founding of Numenor

Alan and Don explore the establishment of Numenor as a reward for the Edain’s valor:

• Divine Favor and Restrictions: Numenor is blessed with longevity and prosperity but bound by restrictions preventing them from sailing west to the Undying Lands.

  Alan Sisto: "They were forbidden to sail west out of sight of their own shores, or to attempt to set foot on the Undying Lands." [73:23]

• Foreshadowing of Numenor’s Downfall: The hosts touch on early signs of Numenor’s eventual rebellion against Valar’s commands, influenced by Sauron’s deceit.

8. Listener Interaction and Future Content

In response to listener questions, Alan and Don discuss what additional content Tolkien could have explored, expressing desires for more detailed origins of Men and further elaboration on regions like Umbar. They also mention their upcoming content, including explorations of Unfinished Tales and new seasons of related media.

9. Conclusion and Community Engagement

Wrapping up, the hosts thank their supporting team and patrons, encouraging listeners to engage with the podcast through various platforms like their website, social media, and Patreon. They tease future episodes that will continue unpacking the rich histories and stories within Tolkien’s works.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Don Marshall: "I have today sent Leaf by niggle to Dublin Review." [03:38]
• Alan Sisto: "I am here with the man of the west who's been clever cleaning off Feanor's pinata in advance of tonight's episode." [01:19]
• Don Marshall: "Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore... Against the will of the Valar, Feanor forsook the blessed realm..." [35:55]
• Don Marshall: "Elros chose to be of mankind and remain with the Edain, but a great lifespan was granted to him..." [66:27]
• Alan Sisto: "The demand such people make would again require a book at least the size of volume one." [26:22]

---

Upcoming Topics:

• Unfinished Tales and Numenor: Future episodes will delve into Unfinished Tales, providing a more comprehensive look at Numenor’s history and its people.
• Rings of Power and Beyond: Discussions on recent adaptations and their ties to Tolkien’s original lore.
• Listener Questions: Addressing fan inquiries and expanding on lesser-explored areas of Middle-earth.

---

Connect with The Prancing Pony Podcast:

• Website: prancingponypodcast.com
• Social Media:
  • Facebook: Prancing Pony Podcast
  • Reddit: r/PrancingPonyPod
  • Twitter & Instagram: @PrancingPonyPod
• Patreon: Support the show and enjoy exclusive perks by joining their Patreon community.

Audience Engagement:

Listeners are encouraged to submit their thoughts, questions, and creative interpretations of Tolkien’s work through various channels, fostering a vibrant and interactive community around the podcast.

---

Note: Advertisements and promotional segments within the transcript have been excluded to focus solely on the content-rich discussions relevant to Tolkien’s lore.

Transcript

[Don Marshall]

If you need three new reasons to love Jack wraps at Jack in the Box, even more. Here they are. Chicken fajita, Chicken Caesar and delicious starting at $3. Coincidentally, those are the same three reasons you should come to Jack in the Box right now at Jack. Every bite's a big deal. Build a routine with Ollie that supports your wellness needs. Like getting your daily vitamins and minerals with Ollie's multigummies or keeping your mood upbeat with all the VI D in hello Happy. Give your gut health some support with probiotics and wake up feeling refreshed after taking Ollie sleep. Do wellness on your terms. Find Ollie at a Walmart or Target near you [e-mail]. these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Alan Sisto]

Good Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 344 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where we hope to be the greatest of the podcasts in arts and.

[Don Marshall]

Lore, but without becoming the proudest and most self willed.

[Alan Sisto]

Gee, you know who we're talking about. I think you all know who we're talking about already, don't you?

[Don Marshall]

I feel like you do. I feel like they do. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I am Don Marshall, the obscure Lord of the Rings facts guy. And I am here with the man of the west who's been clever cleaning off Feanor's pinata in advance of tonight's episode, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

That is right. It has been a while. After all, it's got all that dust and ashes on it. I mean, that's really all it's filled with. Anyway, folks, join us as Tolkien summarizes the entirety of the Silmarillion in one paragraph in our first episode on, well, appendix A1 little eye numenor.

[Don Marshall]

That's a very exciting title, isn't it? Wait, I know.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm trying to figure out how to title these a little better.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, no, no, no. I think as Tolkien intended, appendix A1.

[Alan Sisto]

Little I numinor part one, actually. And that's. That's right, the first of two. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

All right, Denis Villeneuve, that's enough. All right. So exciting or not exciting titles aside, no matter how you got here, you are all welcome here in the common room here at the Prancing Pony podcast, where we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation, pinatas and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. Now, we do love our deep dives into the lore. Heck, this whole Season is a deep dive into the lore. We love discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more, but we try.

[Don Marshall]

And keep things light and fun, like a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're very glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time to take a look at what's happening this week in Tolkien history. Now, this episode releases on October 13, 2024, and as we do, we interpret this week in Tolkien history a little broadly. So we'll go back to October 12th and forward to October 20th. So it's kind of like this week or thereabouts, and we're going to start with October 12, 1944, when Tolkien wrote a letter to his son Christopher. It's letter number 84. In that letter, he acknowledges that he's run into a most awkward error in the synchronization of movements of Frodo and the others, something that's cost him a lot of time as he goes back to fix things in a number of chapters and in non legendary matters. In that same letter, he tells Christopher, I have today sent Leaf by niggle to Dublin Review. Now, of course, that's my personal favorite of Tolkien's non legendarium works. Leaf would end up being published in the Dublin Review's January 1945 issue 11.

[Don Marshall]

Years later on that same day. So October 12, 1955, Tolkien wrote back to his publisher, Allen and Unwin, who had proposed to publish the Return of the King on October 20. Tolkien said it was the, quote, last possible day for publication, because the very next day he was to give the first O'Donnell lecture, English and Welsh. And he hoped that a large part of my audience will be so bemused by sitting up late the night before that they will not so closely observe my grave lack of equipment. As a lecturer on the Celtic subject.

[Alan Sisto]

I feel that I don't want people to closely observe my grave lack of equipment as a podcaster on anything. So, yeah, just keep on going. Get that book out there.

[Don Marshall]

Well, now, on this day, October 13th in 1938, Tolkien wrote letter 34 to Stanley Unwin, saying that he'd been hard at work on a sequel to the Hobbit. It has reached chapter 11, though in rather an illegible state. I still live in hopes that I may be able to submit it early next year. Okay, Professor. Early 1939. Yeah, let's. Let's go with that.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. Talk about optimism, huh? He's writing in 38. I mean, what is that, 15 years before he gets it submitted? I might be able to submit it early next year. It's like 38.

[Don Marshall]

That feels like the friend that's constantly working. Oh, the album will be finished, I promise you. I will show you my successful music very soon.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, actually, he's channeling a little grr. Martin right there.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, well, yes, but also because the Hobbit was sort of like a one off thing and maybe we'll get a sequel. This is like, oh, will they? Won't they?

[Alan Sisto]

And then we'll turn the sequel into a massive epic. Yeah, exactly.

[Don Marshall]

To be fair, it was worth the wait, I guess, as it set the foundation for most fantasy novels.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. And for Dungeons and Dragons and, I mean, so many things that, you know, Tolkien influenced, for sure. And Led Zeppelin. All right, so Tolkien also explained in this same letter that the story that is the sequel to the Hobbit was becoming more terrifying than the Hobbit. It may prove quite unsuitable. It is more adult. But my own children who criticize it as it appears are now older. The darkness of the present days has had some effect on it. Now, I want to put that into context because this letter was written October 13, 1938. This what, the day after this day, 86 years ago now, if I'm doing my math. Right, well, six months before he's written this letter, Austria had been swallowed up by Germany in the Anschluss. And then two weeks prior to Tolkien writing this letter, Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain signed the Munich Agreement, where Czechoslovakia was forced to surrender the Sudetenland to Hitler's Germany. The peace for our time situation. So this was war was very, certainly in the air and there were a lot of, you know, terrifying fears of what was going to be coming next. So that's what he's talking about when the present days, the darkness of the present days has had some effect. Now, 20 years later, on October 14, 1958, Tolkien wrote letter 211 to Rhona Bear, who had asked a number of really good questions. Some highlights include a translation of Sam's crying out as he was fighting Shelob. Now, in the text, he cried, ah, Elbereth Giltoniel. O Menel Palandiriel. The Nalansi Dingurothos. A Tyrone Fulos.

[Don Marshall]

That was wonderful pronunciation. But keep in mind, because in his letter, he says it means more or less O Elbereth Starkindler in the past tense. The title belonged to a mythical prehistory and doesn't Refer to a permanent function from heaven gazing afar to the. I cry now in the shadow of. Or the fear of death. Oh, look towards me. Ever White. Though he does acknowledge that Ever White is inadequate, as is Snow White. But that's something you covered on the word Nerd Wednesday on Tolkien Times back in August.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, absolutely. It's a lot of fun. So go check that episode out if you want more on Ever White, Snow White and the various names of vadrda.

[Don Marshall]

Now, on October 15, 1937, Tolkien wrote to Stanley Unwin, who had forwarded a letter from the author Richard Hughes, who had given high praise to the Hobbit, but who admitted that some parts might be too terrifying for bedside reading. What a description. Tolkien wrote about Priscilla, who's then 8 years old, who Tolkien says has long distinguished between literary and actual terrors. She can take any amount of dragon, a reasonable dose of goblin, but we recently had to change all the handles on the chest of drawers in her room because the former handles grinned at her even in the dark. Not the subject matter, but the time is the real mistake. Bedtime is usually a foolish parental indulgence, popular, of course, because so many of the young folk will do anything to postpone the fatal moment, but as far as I can see, arithmetic is quite as likely to produce disordered sleep as dragons if administered or self administered. Too late.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. That is such great.

[Don Marshall]

That is a great letter. End quote.

[Alan Sisto]

My goodness, it isn't the content, it's the time. You try to tackle anything significant near bedtime and it's gonna. It's gonna be issues. Nope, nope. So that same letter, though, is also the one where he explained something really interesting, that the real historical plural of dwarf, like teeth, of tooth, he says, is dwarrows. Anyway, rather a nice word, but a bit too archaic. We've gone into that on a couple of word nerd Wednesdays and a couple of philology fairs. The idea that had English followed the rules it was supposed to dwarf would then be dwarrows for the plural. But anyway. Now Moving on, on the 16th of October, this will be 1959, Tolkien wrote letter 220, a very brief note to Allen and Unwin, in which he was responding to the request of a cat breeder who wanted to register a litter of Siamese kittens using names from the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien responded, I fear that to me, Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor. But you need not tell the cat breeder that. And I have to remind folks that I do Own a cat now, but it's just an orange dumb cat. So.

[Don Marshall]

Just an orange dumb.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, you know, they share one brain cell. He gets his, I think, every third Tuesday.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, I had an orange cat as well. I. I know exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Cats being the fauna of Mordor, in fairness, it's not all cats. It's apparently, in Tolkien's mind, only the Siamese cats, which are apparently quite intelligent and very communicative, from what I understand.

[Don Marshall]

H. All right, well, before we alienate all of the.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I didn't say a. Tolkien did.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, Touche. All right. And on October 18, 1894, going way back, Tolkien's good friend and fellow TCBS member Geoffrey Bache Smith was born. As we read in John Garth's amazing book, Tolkien and the Great War, Smith had written a letter to Tolkien during the Battle of the Somme, where he wrote, my chief consolation is that if I am scuppered tonight, there will still be left a member of the TCBS to voice what I dreamed and what we all agreed upon. For the death of one of its members cannot, I am determined, dissolve the tcbs. Death can make us loathsome and helpless as individuals, but it cannot put an end to the immortal Four. May God bless you, my dear John Ronald, and may you say things I have tried to say long after I am not there to say them, if such be my lot. And less than eight weeks later, on December 3rd, Smith would lose his life at the Battle of the Somme.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Don Marshall]

You gave me a World War I fact.

[Alan Sisto]

I did, I did. Because I know my co hosts, man.

[Don Marshall]

You do? You do?

[Alan Sisto]

That's a tough one, because that letter always gets. Gets my tears going. I mean, it just so heartbreaking. And.

[Don Marshall]

And there's so many letters like that, too, from.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, folks, read Tolkien and the Great War, if you haven't already. Please.

[Don Marshall]

Such a good book.

[Alan Sisto]

So, so good. Speaking of which, that actually comes up in my little bit here, because we get to October 20th, so now we're talking about a week from today, but there's a lot going on on this day in Tolkien history. Pick a year and a book was probably published. In 1949, it was Farmer Giles of Ham. In 1955, the Lord of the Rings was finally complete with the publication of the Return of the King. So, I mean, we're talking, what now? Almost 70 years ago, after Tolkien's passing, October 20 still wasn't done. In 1994, Christopher Tolkien published the War of the jewels. That's the 11th volume of the History of Middle Earth. And in 2003, John Garth's book that we just referenced, Tolkien and the Great War, was published on October 20th.

[Don Marshall]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

So much.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. You know, for someone that has a very specific date, September 22, I wonder if October 20 holds any special reference to Tolkien. Just for.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know. It's interesting. I mean, typically books are published on the same day of the week, which is why none of those are consecutive years. But I don't know. I could be wrong.

[Don Marshall]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I believe books come out on a Tuesday in modern day, for at least.

[Alan Sisto]

In the U.S. i don't know.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Here. Okay. Yeah, I should say. Yeah, we should clarify that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's correct.

[Don Marshall]

All right, I'll have to think about that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Don Marshall]

Alan, would you like to read aloud?

[Alan Sisto]

I would indeed. So, folks, we're going to actually pick up in the appendices. Finally, here we go. Concerning the sources for most of the matter contained in the following appendices, especially A TO D. See the note at the end of the prologue, the section A3 Durin's folk was probably derived from Gimli the dwarf who maintained his friendship with Peregrin and Meriaddoc and met them again many times in Gondor and Rohan. The legends, histories and lore to be found in the sources are very extensive. Only selections from them in most places much abridged, are here presented. Their principal purpose is to illustrate the War of the Ring and its origins and to fill up some of the gaps in the main story. The ancient legends of the First Age in which Bilbo's chief interest lay are very briefly referred to, since they concern the ancestry of Elrond and the Numenorean kings and chieftains. Actual extracts from longer annals and tales are placed within quotation marks. Insertions of later dates are enclosed in brackets. Notes within quotation marks are found in the sources. Others are editorial. And we'll stop there.

[Don Marshall]

It's just such a light, pleasant read. You know, there's. There's nothing difficult about reading Tolkien at all, but.

[Alan Sisto]

No, not at all. It's just like. Yeah, I know. It's like reading the opening chapter of an encyclopedia. I know. That wasn't exactly the most exciting reading. It almost is as good as the Ride of the Rohirrim and nearly as dramatic as the death of the Witch King. No, seriously, hang with us, folks. Trust me, the appendices get really good.

[Don Marshall]

Really does. But before we get to all of that and Numenor, or really a brief summary of the Silmarillion that This section on Numenor begins with. We should really spend a bit of time to introduce the annals and on Tolkien's own struggles in getting us these appendices basically at all.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. Now, we'll start with the introductory section, Independence A, that I just read. That lays the groundwork for the appendices themselves, giving us detail on the sources of all this information. I mean, after all, we are talking about histories that go back a lot farther than the personal diary of Bilbo, which was carried on by Frodo.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, but the only source that we are sort of explicitly given within this section is that a 3 on Doran's folk was probably derived from Gimli, the dwarf who maintained his friendship with Peregrine and Meriadoc and met them again many times in Gondor and Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

But why would his ongoing friendship with Merry and Pippin matter? Well, for that, I want to look at the place that this introduction points us to. Right. It says, for more on these sources, go to the note at the end of the prologue. And what Tolkien is telling us here is by note, he means note on the shire records. And there. There are parts that we really should read. These are relevant to the existence of the physical book in which these appendices are found. Don't.

[Don Marshall]

This account of the end of the Third Age is drawn mainly from the Red Book of Westmarch. That most important source for the history of the War of the Ring was so called because it was long preserved at Undertowers, the home of the Fairbairns wardens of Westmarch. It was in origin Bilbo's private diary, which he took with him to Rivendell. Frodo brought it back to the Shire together with many loose leaves of notes. And During Shire Reckoning, 1420, he nearly filled its pages with his account of the war. But annexed to it and preserved with it probably in the single red case, were the three large volumes bound in red leather that Bilbo gave to him as a parting gift. To these four volumes, there was added in Westmarch a fifth containing commentaries, genealogies, and various other matters concerning Hobbit members of the Fellowship.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, so the content that you just talked about there, the. The single red case of the three large volumes and then the fourth volume that was added, and then the fifth that contained all the commentaries, the genealogies, and other matter concerning the Hobbit members. Okay, that's going to be some of what we find in the Appendices, but not all. So let's keep reading to find out about the sources for the rest of that. So after we learn a bit more about the history of the Red Book, specifically that the most important copy made at the request of King Elessar of the Red Book of the Peryanath was known as the Thane's Book, we read. The Thanes book was thus the first copy made of the Red Book and contained much that was later omitted or lost in Minas Tirith. It received much annotation and many corrections, especially of names, words and quotations in the Elvish languages. And there was added to it an abbreviated version of those parts of the tale of Aragorn and Arwen which lie outside the account of the war. The full tale is stated to have been written by Barahir, grandson of the steward Faramir, sometime after the passing of the king. But the chief importance of Findegil's copy, Findegil being the one who actually transcribed the Thanes book, is that it alone contains the whole of Bilbo's translations from the Elvish. These three volumes were found to be a work of great skill and learning in which between 1403 and 1418, he had used all the sources available to him in Rivendell, both living and written. But since they were little used by Frodo being almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days, no more is said of them here. Hint, hint, there's great stuff in there. We're not going to talk about it. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Nope, not at all. So now we get an explanation for how the tale of Aragorn and Arwen got included, but also the addition of the translations from the Elvish, which is not in the appendices. In the Prologue. In the Book of Lost Tales, Part 1, Christopher Tolkien writes that he has assumed that the Book of Lore that Bilbo gave Frodo provided in the end the solution. They were the Silmarillion. However, he also acknowledges that there is, so far as I know, no other statement on this matter anywhere in my father's writings.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, but that totally makes sense. The translations from the Elvish is going to be the content that we know of from the Silmarillion.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, later in this note on the Shire records in the Prologue, we read that Pippin and his successors at the Great Smiles collected many manuscripts written by scribes of Gondor, mainly copies or summaries of histories or legends relating to Elendil and his heirs. Only here in the Shire were to be found extensive materials for the history of Numenor and the arising of Sauron. It was probably at great smiles that the Tale of Years was put together with the assistance of material collected by Meriadoc. Though the dates given are often conjectural, especially for the Second Age, they deserve attention. It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from Rivendell, which he visited more than once. Now, those histories or legends relating to Elendil and his heirs, that is appendix A1. I mean, that is. That is all of it. So we're excited to finally be able to get into that information. It's what we're going to be covering together between now and the end of November, I think.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, it's going to be very good. This is the whole of the appendices is such a great treat to get into. And now that we know how the appendices got here, let's take a quick look at what they are said to be containing by this introductory section. So, first, what we get here is just a summary. The histories in the sources are, as the texts say, very extensive. So we're just getting the heavily abridged histories that sort of fill in the gaps of that story.

[Alan Sisto]

Right now, we do get some explanation of why some things are in quotation marks and some are not, why some dates are in brackets and how to understand the dating abbreviations. But we're also told that the First Age legends, those are the stories that Bilbo was interested in, hence Bilbo's translations from the Elvish are very briefly referred to, since they concern the ancestry of Elrond of the Numenorean kings and chieftains. That is, of course, what we're covering today, the summary of the events of the First Age that lead us to the kingdom of Numenor. Now, before we do, because that sounds like a perfect segue into our next reading, it isn't yet, I promise. I want to look a little bit at Tolkien's efforts to get these appendices to us as readers. This is sort of a meta discussion, right? We're not. We're not actually talking about the appendices themselves. We're talking about what it took to get them to us. It was a close thing, really. And we're going to start with a book that, honestly, I thought we'd seen the last of for a bit. Wayne Hammond and Christina Skulls, the Lord of the Rings A Reader's Companion. Now, we relied on this a lot over the last six seasons. They do a fantastic job of pointing us to a lot of different primary sources where we can find more details.

[Don Marshall]

And context and Even here, they acknowledge that they can only annotate the appendices very selectively, or the book would become two volumes, I guess.

[Alan Sisto]

Definitely, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

But they do point out that some of Tolkien's own words on the appendices, we wanted to talk through some of those because in the first edition of the Lord of the Rings, in Tolkien's original forward, he mentioned that there would be extra details provided at the end of the third volume to include some abridged family trees which show how the hobbits mentioned were related to one another and what their ages were at the time the story opens. There is an index of names and strange words with some explanations. And for those who like such lore, in an appendix, some brief account is given of the language, alphabets and calendars that were used in the Westlands in the Third Age of Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, so in the forward of the very first edition, he was already talking about all of this extra content that he wanted to provide.

[Don Marshall]

You ever hype up your own epilogue there?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. That sort of summarizes really what the appendices contain. Languages, alphabets, calendars, index of names, which really is the index, not the appendix, but still family trees. All of that is in there. Now, Tolkien had long wanted to include the appendices, as we can see, in the volume of his letters. Writing to rainer Unwin in 1953 after completing his revision for press of what we now know as the Fellowship of the ring, in letter 137, Tolkien said also, the matter of appendices at the end of volume three, after the final and rather short sixth book has not been decided. It is no good promising things that are not going actually to appear. But I very much hope that precisely what is here promised in however reduced a form will in fact prove possible. Now, in the same letter, he expressed his hope that the facsimiles of the burned and torn pages of the runic book that would be the Book of the Chamber of Mazarbol, originally planned to appear at the beginning of book two, chapter five, that's the Bridge of Khazad Dum, would be included in the appendix. Alas, those pages from the Book of Mazarbal were too expensive to print.

[Don Marshall]

That darn paper and that darn capitalism getting in the way of my fantasy stories.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, like we talked about before, if you have the. The more recent special edition of the Lord of the Rings, they did do a full reproduction, full color, cut out and everything. Fantastic.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. Let's go to another letter, because in 1954, in letter 144 to Naomi Mitchison. He says that her letter, in which she asks a bunch of questions.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Would guide me in choosing the kind of information to be provided as promised in the appendix, and strengthen my hand with the publishers. Since the third volume will be rather slimmer than the second, events move quicker and less explanations are needed. There will, I believe, be a certain amount of room for such matter. My problem is not the difficulty of providing it, but choosing from the mass of material I have already composed.

[Alan Sisto]

I've already written appendices that would put the entire length of the book to shame, but I can only include so much. That is the problem, isn't it? He had so much information, but how to decide what to include and what to exclude? Well, later, in that same letter to Naomi Mitchison, he acknowledges having to make compressed versions of such historical, ethnographical and linguistic matter so that he can fit it in an appendix. And this process continues. He acknowledges being hopelessly behind in letter 157, so that by December 1954, in letter 158A, he's promising Rainer Unwin to send off at least the main matter tomorrow. Unwin had told him, send whatever he produced for the appendices, or they'd have to publish the Return of the King without them.

[Don Marshall]

No. Well, to the shock of no one, it still didn't happen, because by March 1955, after handing over some of the material, Allen and Unwin pressed him for more. So March 2nd, Rainer Unwin wrote to him saying that they would have to, quote, yield to the intense pressure that is accumulating to publish the Return of the King without all the additional materials. Tolkien wrote in letter 160 and acknowledged, I must accept your challenge.

[Alan Sisto]

Accepted.

[Don Marshall]

A lie that is just a line of, I love that. I love that so much.

[Alan Sisto]

But then he ends up regretting the whole thing. He says, I now wish that no appendices had been promised, for I think their appearance in truncated and compressed form will satisfy nobody, certainly not me. Clearly, from the appalling mass of letters I receive, not those people who like that kind of thing, astonishingly many, while those who enjoy the book as an heroic romance only and find unexplained vistas part of the literary effect will neglect the appendices very properly. I am not now at all sure that the tendency to treat the whole thing as a kind of vast game is really good. Certainly not for me, who find that kind of thing only too fatally attractive. Man, I'm feeling called out by the professor's words here. I mean, that is. I totally get that. All right, he goes on. It is, I suppose, a tribute to the curious effect that story has when based on very elaborate and detailed workings of geography, chronology and language, that so many should clamor for sheer information or lore. But the demand such people make would again require a book at least the size of volume one. In any case, the background matter is very intricate, useless unless exact and compression within the limits available leaves it unsatisfactory. It needs great concentration and leisure, and being completely interlocked cannot be dealt with piecemeal. I have found that out since I let part of it go. Oh, man. What. How hard is that for him to have to decide what goes in?

[Don Marshall]

That's tough. That's truly one of those things you don't even think about until you're like, oh, I guess if I were an author, I would want to. But wait a minute, hang on. And then it just. Yeah, it.

[Alan Sisto]

It a whole separate book. And yet that's something that he was thinking about, wasn't it?

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Yeah, it was. Finally, in letter 187, which is a draft to H. Cotton Mitchin in April 1956, he Adm. Once having the idea to publish a special volume of material for specialists.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you, Tolkien. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Even then, under the shadow of the risk of the great production cost, it was not ill received by Allen and Unwin and would now, I think, be a practical possibility before acknowledging that the limiting factor would be that he'd actually have to get it done. Professor, the work.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

[Don Marshall]

We know part of what would be included. As Tolkien later writes, my plans for the specialist volume were largely linguistic. An index of names was to be produced, which, by etymological interpretation, would also provide a large Elvish vocabulary. This is, of course, a first requirement. I worked at it for months and indexed the first two volumes. It was the chief cause of the delay for volume three until it became clear that size and cost were ruinous.

[Alan Sisto]

Ruinous, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Or great adjective. Great adjective there.

[Alan Sisto]

And one thing is for certain, and he kind of hinted at that in that earlier letter, everybody wanted more. Tolkien explained that part of the problem in determining what would be in this extra volume, this specialist volume that, you know, ends up being kind of the appendices, kind of unfinished tales, is that there were so many demands and interests from readers. He writes, while many, like you, demand maps, others wished for geological indications rather than places. Many want elvish grammars, phonologies and specimens. Some want metrics and prosodies, not only of the brief elvish specimens, but of the translated verses in less familiar modes, such as those written in the strictest form of Anglo Saxon alliterative verse. Musicians want tunes and musical notation. Archaeologists want ceramics and metallurgy. Botanists want a more accurate description of the Mallorn of Elenor, Nithradil, Alfarin, Malos and Cymbelminna. And historians want more details about the social and political structure of Gondor and Grr. Martin wants to know the tax structure of Aragorn's. No, I'm kidding, sorry. Going back to Tolkien's actual letter, general inquirers want information about the Wainriders, the Harad Dwarvish origins, the Dead Men, the Beornings and the Missing. Two wizards out of five. It will be a big volume, even if I attend only to the things revealed to my limited understanding.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, I mean, yes, all of, please. All of that, all at once.

[Alan Sisto]

All of one big book, please. Yes, please. Well, as Hammond and Skull point out, going back to the reader's companion to end this part of the conversation, this separate book never materialized. But some of the abundant material it might have contained in draft, if not finished form, or which was prepared for the appendices, but omitted due to insufficient space, has appeared in posthumous volumes such as Unfinished Tales and the Peoples of Middle Earth. Which is precisely Don, why you and I are going to be tapping into those resources to flesh out what we read here in the appendices, actually, through the entire season.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, and it's going to be a really great way of sort of piecemeal, putting together Tolkien's content in the way it was meant to be consumed.

[Alan Sisto]

I hope so.

[Don Marshall]

In an understandable format and not a bunch of notes at the end of scribbles. We will get right into that just as soon as we take a quick break.

[Alan Sisto]

It's the new year, so it's time to start turning your resolutions into reality. I know, for me that means getting back to the gym after a rough year, fitness wise and, well, without getting too blunt. That also means trying to smell better. And there's a resolution we could all use. I've been using Mando. It's a whole body deodorant. I've been using it for a few weeks now and I've really been happy with, well, with smelling better. Mando is a whole body deodorant. So you don't just use it on your armpits, any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control. You can use Mando there. Yes, there too. It's proven to block and control odors all day, even in this tiny podcast booth. And it's available in solid stick spray or even cream. Now, personally, I like the Pro Sport scent, but Bourbon leather is pretty nice too. Now, as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code. Now that equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Use code [e-mail] S-H O P M A N-D O.com Please support our show and tell them we sent you smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence with Mando. It's the new year and it's time to start tackling those things you've been putting off for too long. You've been kicking around a business idea for a while now and you're wondering how you're going to make 2025 different look. It's time to do this and Shopify is how you're going to get it done. Shopify makes it easy to create your own brand, open up your business and get that all important first sale. You can get your store up without any coding skills. Man, I couldn't code my way out of a paper sack. You just drag and drop with thousands of customizable templates. Shopify handles all the details that would bog you down. Things like shipping, taxes, payments, all from one easy to use dashboard so that you can focus on the important stuff growing your business. Speaking of which, Shopify has really powerful social media tools to connect all of your channels and create posts so that you can sell where people scroll. Don't kick yourself when you hear this again in a year because you spent 2025 still thinking about it with Shopify. Your first sale is closer than you think. Established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase go to shopify.com pony to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com pony pony now soon we're going to get back to introducing the fan or before we do, we want to remind you that there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.

[Don Marshall]

That's right. We also have broom handles for the pinata and an amazing listener community. They are always coming up with great questions and memes in the discord as we record these sorts of things live all across our social media spaces. You can check out the common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and.

[Alan Sisto]

More now on Facebook. Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news and episode drops, but you're going to want to join the group to get in those great discussions.

[Don Marshall]

And if you prefer Reddit, there is us @R PrancingPonyPod or on Twitter and Instagram. We are simply Prancing Pony Pod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's my new short format Daily Show. I shouldn't say new anymore. It's been around what, a year and a half? With everything from Mailbag Monday to Silmarillion Saturday. But be sure to check it out at YouTube.comtimes and follow TolkienTimes on all your social media. Now, Don, it's time to get into the appendices proper. Finally, after about a half hour, will you read about our favorite pinata, which if you ask me, must be filled with nothing but black licorice and the vomit flavored jelly bellies? Ew.

[Don Marshall]

No thank you. Yes, I have grabbed my Sorry, wouldn't.

[Alan Sisto]

That be like the worst pinata ever?

[Don Marshall]

Worst pinata of all time. All right, I have grabbed my blindfold. The pinata is set. And here we go.

[Alan Sisto]

All right.

[Don Marshall]

Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore. Don interrupting here. Arguable, but I love it. I love it, but also the proudest and most self willed.

[Alan Sisto]

Alan interrupting not doubtful, just to be clear on that one. Anyway, no more interruptions. We go.

[Don Marshall]

He wrought the three jewels, the Silmarils, and filled them with the radiance of the two trees, Telperion and Laurelin, that gave light to the land of the Valar. The jewels were coveted by Morgoth, the enemy who stole them, and after destroying the trees, took them to Middle Earth and guarded them in his great fortress of Thangorodrim. Against the will of the Valar, Feanor forsook the blessed realm and went in exile to Middle Earth, leading with him a great part of his people, for in his pride he purposed to recover the jewels from Morgoth by force. Thereafter followed the hopeless war of the Eldar and the Edain against Thangorodrim, in which they were at last utterly defeated. The Edain were three peoples of men who, coming first to the west of Middle Earth and the shores of the Great Sea, became allies of the Eldar against the enemy. There were three unions of the Eldar and the Luthien and Beren, Idril and Tuor, and Aragorn and Arwen by the last, the long sundered branches of the Half Elven were reunited and their line was restored. Luthien Tinuviel was the daughter of King Thingol, Greycloak of Doriath in the First Age. But her mother was Melian of the people of the Valar. Beren was the son of Barahir of the first House of the Edain. Together they rested a silmaril from the Iron Crown of Morgoth. Luthien became mortal and was lost to Elvenkind. Dior was her son. Elwing was his daughter and had in her keeping the Silmaril. Idril. Celebr was the daughter of Turgon, King of the hidden city of Gondolin. Tuor was the son of Huor of the House of Hador and the Third House of the Adaine, and the most renowned in the wars with Morgoth. Earendil the Mariner was their son.

[Alan Sisto]

Nicely done. I mean, that may be the most compressed summary of the Silmarillion that I've ever encountered. I mean, granted it skips over just about all of the detail, but we get what matters, don't we?

[Don Marshall]

We get basically everything with Feanor. Who he was, what he made, what he did. The text doesn't really us much. He was the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore. So you know, a really rich theater kid with a father who was king or something, but also understandably the proudest and most self willed. Then he goes on to make the Silmarils. They get stolen and against the will of the Valar, Feanor forsook the blessed Realm and went in exile to Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Now that is all that we get on Feanor in the appendices. But if you think we're going to leave the fan or pinata alone on this show, you got another thing coming. We can't read much because it's one episode, but we want to jump to the Silmarillion to at least give you a tiny bit more flavor on this guy. He was tall and fair of face and masterful, his eyes piercingly bright and his hair raven dark in the pursuit of all his purposes, eager and steadfast. Few ever changed his courses by counsel, none by force. He became of all the Noldor then or after, the most subtle in mind and the most skilled in hand. In his youth, bettering the work of Rumil, he devised those letters which bear his name and which the Eldar used ever after. And he it was who first of the Noldor, discovered how Gems greater and brighter than those of the earth might be made with skill.

[Don Marshall]

We'll get to the actual Silmarils in the next bit, but about them we read that the heart of Feanor was fast bound to these things that he himself made. And that for though at great feasts Feanor would wear them blazing on his brow, at other times they were guarded close, locked in a deep chamber of his horde in Tyrion. For Feanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love and grudged the sight of them to all, save to his father and his seven sons. He seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own.

[Alan Sisto]

See, I got things to say. I got things to say. But we're not going to because this isn't the Feanor episode. But you know, if we're going to get a one paragraph summary of the Silmarillion, we know we have to expand on a little bit. Of course, Feanor also forged fell swords and began openly to speak words of rebellion against the Valar. He threatened to kill his half brother. He ends up getting banished for a time because of it.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, it's not really looking good for him. He was a master of words and his tongue had great power over hearts when he would use it. And that night he made a speech before the Noldor which they ever remembered. Fierce and fell were his words, and filled with anger and pride, and hearing them, the Noldor were stirred into madness. His wrath and his hate were given most to Morgoth. And yet well nigh all that he said came from the very lies of Morgoth himself.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh man, that is just. And that is how Morgoth worked too.

[Don Marshall]

I mean, it's rough. I mean it's really rough.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. So Feanor would then swear what Tolkien would call a blasphemous oath by the name of Iluvatar, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the end of the world anyone who possessed a Silmaril. By the way, I don't remember which episode, but there was a first Age Friday episode not that long ago on today's Tolkien Times where I read the version of that oath that's in the Lay of Lathian. Oh man, hearing that in in verse is stunning, I gotta say. But go find that anyway. He would. He, like I said, swore this oath, vowing to pursue with vengeance. Then he led his sons and his people out of Valinor. And when the Teleri gently refused to help him, as friends would do, suggesting maybe Feanor, you Should wait a little bit. Since the great among the Valar would redress the hurts of Morgoth. Feanor steals the Teleri ships and a great part of their mariners that dwelt in Aqualonde were wickedly slain. And then when he and a small group of his people managed to sail east on these stolen ships to Middle Earth, he burned the ships, leaving the majority of the Noldor, his own people, to endure the grinding ice of the Helcaraxa.

[Don Marshall]

Feanor. Yeah, just in general. One of those guys you never really want to be around, but can't help it, because even as he is dying from mortal wounds suffered at the hands of Balrogs, and he knew with the foreknowledge of death that the elves could not defeat Morgoth, he still doesn't do anything. He still, quote, laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath and to avenge their father. So great guy that. Yeah, that Feanor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, absolutely. Just quality people right there. The kind of guy you should all look up to. Nope, nope, not at all.

[Don Marshall]

Not even remotely close.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, while we could easily spend the rest of the episode bashing Feanor, and part of me wants to, we're going to move on because the appendix moves on. It gives us the description of the Silmarils, or the Quenya plural Silmarilli. Pretty much the entirety of the First Age hinges around the Silmarils. And we're not going to do a season long sidebar, much as I'm interested in doing so. But we will at least remind you a bit about these incredible jewels from.

[Don Marshall]

Of the Silmarils and the unrest of the Noldor within the Silmarillion. We read that, like the crystal of diamonds, it appeared and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the kingdom of Arda. Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils, but as is the body to the children of Iluvatar, the house of its inner fire that is within and yet in all parts of it, and is its life and the inner fire of the Silmarils, Feanor, made with the blended light of the trees of Valinor, which lives in them yet though the trees have long withered and shine no more. So, you know, spoilers for like the first few chapters of the Silmarillion.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. That's okay. Unlike the Lord of the Rings, Tolkien does a fantastic job of spoiling the Silmarillion all within itself, all the time.

[Don Marshall]

I love it.

[Alan Sisto]

All the Time. Chapter titles. Well, that's Christopher Tolkien, but yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So Varda the Valier, who made the stars and is the wife of Manwe, howled these three Silmarils, and we read so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them. But it was scorched and withered, and Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, Earth, sea and Air lay locked within them.

[Don Marshall]

Great description. Melcore lusted after them and eventually stole them after he took Ungolian on their first and last date. Killing the trees, Baron and want to go to dinner?

[Alan Sisto]

I know a great tree restaurant. We can eat these two trees.

[Don Marshall]

It's vegetarian, I swear.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

After killing the trees, Baron and Luthien were able to retrieve one from the crown of Morgoth, which eventually got placed in the Nowglamir. And the tldr on this one is that eventually it guided Earendil to Valinor, where he successfully pled his case to the Valar, who came and defeated Borgoth. And then the Silmarils are now bound on Earendil's brow as he sails his ship Vingulot, up in the skies as Elrond watches from Middle Earth. Very sad. Wondering where his parents are.

[Alan Sisto]

Hey, Arendelle. You know, part of the ship, part of the crew.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

So now the other two Silmarils, because the one is on Earendil's brow, very bright light. The other two were taken from Morgoth when said Valar came and defeated him. But the last two sons of Feanor, Maedhros and Maglor stole them because the stones had been hallowed. And these guys definitely had some unclean hands. Their hands were burning. Or hand, in one case. Maglor threw his into the sea, while Maedhros, not willing to lose his other hand, threw himself into a fiery chasm. So now there's a Silmaril in the sky, one in the Earth and one in the water, just like we read in Mandos, foretelling that the fates of Arda, Earth, Sea and Air lay locked within them.

[Don Marshall]

Feels like the introduction to Avatar the Last Airbender.

[Alan Sisto]

Little bit, huh?

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, but with stones.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Don Marshall]

And the mention of the two trees and the land of the Valar. The trees, which we just read, the source for the Light of the Silmarils, are also mentioned here in a brief summary, and they deserve a little bit of coverage for those who have maybe not listened to the entirety of season one of ppp. It's. It's deep.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. So we just want to give you a little bit of the history of the trees so that you can kind of understand why this is so important. So back at the very beginning, the Valar made these lamps. I say the Valar because they were kind of all involved, right? Aule wrought them at Yavanna's request. Varda filled them and Manwe himself hallowed them. They were put on pillars taller than any mountains and they lit up the whole world. Now, Melkor, being Melkor, couldn't abide this. He ends up casting down the pillars, breaking the lamps, destroying much of the earth in the process. But Don, the Valar weren't done. Can you read that next little bit?

[Don Marshall]

I certainly can, and they never are. After they had fully established their realm in Aman and built the city of Valmar, we read before its western gate there was a green mound, Azelohar, that is named also Coralyre. And Yavanna hallowed it. And she sat there long upon the green grass and sang a song of power in which was set all her thought of things that grow in the earth. But Nienna thought in silence and watered the mold with tears. In that time the Valar were gathered together to hear the song of Yavanna. And they sat silent upon their thrones of counsel in the Mahanaksar, the Ring of Doom near the golden gates of Valamar. And Yavanna Kemintari sang before them, and they watched.

[Alan Sisto]

And what did they see when they watched? As they watched upon the mound there came forth two slender shoots. And silence was over all the world in that hour. Nor was there any other sound save the chanting of Yavanna. Under her song the saplings grew and became fair and tall and came to flower. And thus there awoke in the world the two trees of Valinor. Of all things which Yavanna made, they have most renown. And about their fate all the tales of the elder days are woven. The one had leaves of dark green that beneath were as shining silver. And from each of his countless flowers a dew of silver light was ever falling. And the earth beneath was dappled with the shadows of his fluttering leaves. The other bore leaves of a young green, like the new opened beech. Their edges were of glittering gold. Flowers swung upon her branches in clusters of yellow flame formed, each to a glowing horn that spilled a golden rain upon the ground. And from the blossom of that tree there came forth warmth and a great light. Telperion, the one was called in Valinor, and Silpion and Ninquelote and many other Names. But Laurelin, the other was. And Malinalda and Culurian, and many names in Sog beside. Ah, there's the trees. Folks, if you've never read the Silmarillion, you haven't gotten through season one of the ppp. There's your crash course.

[Don Marshall]

It's going to be good. I mean, it's. It's kind of a bit of a longer list of names. I feel like we are kind of harkening back to the. To the. The Ents a little bit with this as a kind of. Oh, well, there's this name and then there's that name, and then we could go on for many other.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely.

[Don Marshall]

We could turn it into song and.

[Alan Sisto]

Then we could do a Philology fair on each of the names.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, outstanding. We've got content for at least the next two decades as we skip ahead to the theft by Morgoth and the rebellion of Feanor. We already talked about the theft of the Silmari, the Feanor Rebellion, but let's at least get one quote in there about the theft. For they told how the blind darkness came northward, and in the midst walked some power for which there was no name, and the darkness issued from it. But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Feanor, and there he slew Finwe, King of the Noldor, before the doors and spilled the first blood of the blessed realm. For Finwe alone had not fled from the horror of the dark. And they told that Melkor had broken the stronghold of Formenos and taken all the jewels of the Noldor that were hoarded in that place. And the Silmarils were gone first.

[Alan Sisto]

Just if you'd brought them with you to this festival. But then again, everything else would have still happened. I'll beat up. I'll absolutely criticize Fenway all day long about some of his decisions, but give the man props. He alone did not run from the horror of the dark. So, yeah, yeah, all right.

[Don Marshall]

A little bit of bravery there.

[Alan Sisto]

Then we get the line about the wars in Beleriand and their hopelessness. Now, as for the war, it would take far too long to talk about each of the battles, wouldn't it? So instead we're just going to summarize the fact that they were indeed hopeless. Even combined with the houses of the Edain, the Eldar were never going to be able to overthrow Melkor, formerly one of the Valar and a being of immense power far more than his Maya protege, Sauron. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Now, for a moment, just put yourself in the shoes of a reader almost 69 years ago today. Yeah, this episode comes out October 13th. This was happening on October 20th, 1955. The return of the King has been published.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. And you're reading this. Except you aren't reading this because you're thinking, okay, folks, at least the guys in 1955 that were reading this, they got all this stuff on the Silmarillion, this one paragraph, but they didn't. This whole paragraph wasn't in the text until the second edition in 1965.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, and even then, this was all you get of that stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, sure.

[Don Marshall]

You get a little bit more about Beren and Luthien, some story fleshed out in the books, not much else on any of the rest. And you know, Feanor gets a mention. Woo hoo.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, he actually gets three. The first mention is when Gandalf points out the star of the house of Feanor and the doors of Durin. And then the second and third are kind of connected. Gandalf, when he that Feanor himself might have wrought the Palantiri. Later in that same chapter, he says that he wishes he could use one to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor at their work, while both the white tree and the golden were in flower. Those are the only mentions of Feanor. So if you're reading these books, you just are getting these textual ruins. And that's it.

[Don Marshall]

Mm. You get the explanation of one Silmaril when Aragorn is explaining basically to the Hobbits the Song of Beren and Luthien. And then that's it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that really is it. Now, Thangorodrim is mentioned twice in the text, right? Once by Sam, who recalls the feats of Beren, and then once by Elrond, who explained that even at the last alliance the elves and men were, quote, not so many nor so fair as when Thangorodrim was broken and the elves deemed that evil was ended forever. And it was not so. By the way, is that line heavy or what?

[Don Marshall]

And it was not so, and it was not. That sucks. But you should have expected that. But that's. That's basically it.

[Alan Sisto]

That's it.

[Don Marshall]

Just these very brief glances into the first Age and all the appendices do is to just make you want more. But it would be 22 more years after Return of the King was published and 12 years after the second edition with this paragraph until 1977 when Christopher Tolkien published the Silmarillion giving fans of Tolkien just this very rich, very dense, often confusing, but no less wonderful version of these stories in the first age.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, no, absolutely. After that one paragraph summary of the Silmarillion, we move into a brief recap of the three unions of Elves and men. And by unions, I mean I'll check a. Wow. Wow. Yeah, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

They had children. But before we get to the unions themselves, we should note that this was revised. The version was originally published read. There were only three unions of the High Elves and men.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, he made that change for two reasons, Right. First, the High Elves were only those who had lived in Amman before returning to Middle earth. In letter 144, he explains that the Eldar are those who heard the summons and began the journey. The High Elves are exiles of one branch of the Eldar, that is specifically the Noldor. But since neither Luthien nor Arwen ever lived in Amon, they technically weren't exiled High Elves, but they were Eldar. So he made that change.

[Don Marshall]

Just the most bizarre, random bloodline, things of. What's that thing about how all squares.

[Alan Sisto]

Are all rectangles are squares, but not all squares are rectangles?

[Don Marshall]

That's the one. That's the one. Kind of feels a little bit like that. The second reason was to clarify for Tolkien, the men are the Edain. So those men of the three houses who allied with the elves, those are the Edain. And of course, that leaves room for other unions between Elves and men. We've got Mithralas and Imrazor, but she was Silvan, so technically Eldar, unless we take Eldar to mean only those who at least got to Belerian.

[Alan Sisto]

And there are some notes of Tolkien's that would suggest that's actually the fact. So, like, okay, Mithrelas and Imrazor could still fit and not be a contradiction of this line that, you know, the three unions of Elves and men. Now, we won't go deep on each of these three unions. The Beren and Luthien story was part of the Lord of the Rings already. And the Arwen and Aragorn story is going to be told in full when we get to that later in Appendix A.

[Don Marshall]

There's not a lot in the Silmarillion on a Tuor in Idril, so we'll just read a tiny bit here. And Tuor remained in Gondolin, for its bliss and its beauty and the wisdom of its people held him enthralled. And he became mighty in stature and in mind and learned deeply from the lore of the exiled Elves. Then the heart of Idril was turned to him and his to her. So high did Tuor stand in the favor of the king that when he had dwelt there for seven years, Turgon did not refuse him even the hand of his daughter. For though he would not heed the bidding of Ulmo, he perceived that the fate of the Noldor was wound with the one whom Ulmo had sent. And he did not forget the words that Huor spoke to him before the host of Gondolin departed from the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, I think we have to do a little more justice to that, though, because the words that Huor spoke to him are pretty important. Those words were spoken to him when Huor and his brother Hurin held the rear guard to allow Turgon to escape back into Gondolin unseen. And we read. Then Huor spoke and said, yet if Gondolin so. Yet if it is what he means, is what he says, but he means Gondolin. Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and men. This I say to you, Lord, with the eyes of death, though we part here forever. And I shall not look on your white walls again. From you and from me a new star shall arise. Farewell, man. Yeah, fantastic.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And while there is more on the relationships of Beren and Luthien, as well as Aragorn and Arwen, it is the union between Tuor and Idril that I should say has probably the biggest impact on Middle Earth through their son, Earendil in the First Age.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely right. And we'll talk more about that after the break. Now, with two full seasons of the Rings of Power out on Amazon, the upcoming release of the film the War of the Rohirrim, and all of the other ways that the Tolkien fandom is growing, there's going to be a brand new group of folks who are going to be looking to learn more about the rich world of Middle Earth fandom. And that is why Sean Marchese and I wrote why We Love Middle Earth.

[Don Marshall]

You ever see a book so perfectly timed and titled you get a little jealous you didn't write it yourself? Well, Alan and Sean wrote this book as a guidebook for those diving into Middle Earth for the first time, as well as the legendarium veterans who are looking for more information on specific aspects of Tolkien's work and the fandom on TikTok. I'm sorry, the fandom in general as well. The book is a collection of short chapters, each serving as an introduction to a different one of Tolkien's works, adaptations, areas of study or fan interests. The idea is to essentially draw readers deeper into Middle Earth so that you can never leave as you read along with Alan and Sean.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. And of course, as much as we could, we tried to mirror the experience of listening to this podcast. A bunch of asides and digressions, commentary in each of our two individual voices, and then plenty of pop culture references and terrible dad jokes. So pick up a copy of why We Love Middle Earth at your local bookstore or on Amazon.

[Don Marshall]

Welcome to the Hotel Thangaradrim. Let's get back to the show.

[Alan Sisto]

You can check out anytime you like, but you can.

[Don Marshall]

That's right, you're stuck here. All right. Shall we keep going?

[Alan Sisto]

I think we should.

[Don Marshall]

I think you're up to read Earendil.

[Alan Sisto]

Wedded Elwing, and with the power of the Silmaril passed the shadows and came to the uttermost west, and speaking as ambassador of both Elves and men, obtained the help by which Morgoth was overthrown. Earendil was not permitted to return to mortal lands, and his ship bearing the Silmaril was set to sail in the heavens as a star and a sign of hope to the dwellers in Middle Earth oppressed by the Great Enemy or his servants. The Silmarilli alone preserved the ancient light of the two trees of Valinor before Morgoth poisoned them. But the other two were lost at the end of the First Age. Of these things, the full tale and much else concerning Elves and men is told in the Silmarillion. The sons of Earendil were Elros and Elrond the Peredyl, or Half Elven. In them alone, the line of the heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved, and after the fall of Gil Galad, the lineage of the High Elven kings was also in Middle Earth, only represented by their descendants. At the end of the First Age, the Valar gave to the Half Elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond chose to be of Elvenkind and became a master of wisdom. To him, therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle Earth, that when weary at last of the mortal lands, they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the uttermost West. And this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed to pass with him from the circles of the world, or, if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle Earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the War of the Ring were fraught with sorrow. Elros chose to be of mankind and remain with the Edain, but a great lifespan was granted to him many times that of lesser men.

[Don Marshall]

All right, Yeah, A lot to unpack there. So.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. So now we've gone from the third of those unions, right, the only union we wanted to spend some extra time on into the result of that union. Right. El Ros and Elrond and what happened with them.

[Don Marshall]

Yep. So Arndil, son of the mortal man, to war. And the Elf Princess Idril marries Elwing, the granddaughter of Baron and Luthien, and thanks to the power of the Silmarils, they make it to Valinor to ask for help. And for that, we want to go all the way back to the Silmarillion and pick up with perhaps one of the most dramatic arrivals of anyone anywhere.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, maybe right. Right ahead of Aragorn's arrival at the Pelennor Fields, maybe, you know, the Eucatastrophe at the. At the Lord of the Rings there. But this one. Fantastic. But Earendil climbed the green hill of Tuna and found it bare. And he entered into the streets of Tirion and they were empty and his heart was heavy, for he feared that some evil had come even to the blessed realm. He walked in the deserted ways of Tirion, and the dust upon his raiment and his shoes was a dust of diamonds. And he shone and glistened as he climbed the long white stairs. And he called aloud in many tongues, both of elves and men, but there were none to answer him. Therefore he turned back at last towards the sea. But even as he took the shoreward road, one stood upon the hill and called to him in a great voice, crying, hail Earendil of mariners most renowned the looked for that cometh at unawares the longed for that cometh beyond hope. Hail Earendil, bearer of light before the sun and moon, Splendor of the children of earth, Star in the darkness, jewel in the sunset, radiant in the morning. That voice was the voice of Eonwe, herald of Manwe. And he came from Valimar and summoned Earendil to come before the powers of Arda. Man, a guy knows how to show up at a party, doesn't he?

[Don Marshall]

Man, I want that guy following me around all day, every day. John Marshall is getting in his car. Most resplendent of all drivers of podcasters.

[Alan Sisto]

Most annoying. Oh, I love it the avoided for that cometh. Anyway.

[Don Marshall]

Okay, join us next time when Alan and I will just be doing this for a half hour.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, we could do some. I'm still working on lyrics for Hotel Thangarodrim, by the way. I'm not done with that gig.

[Don Marshall]

All right, so as the story here in the appendix tells us that we just read, they get help that they asked for. The valar come and they defeat Morgoth. But Earendil is now just the morning star.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Oh, Venus. And this bit about much else concerning elves and men is told in the Silmarillion is actually new in the 1965 version. But the Silmarillion was mentioned in the original version in the previous version of the sentence where it read. But the other two were lost at the end of the first age, as is told in the Silmarillion. So just cut out that bit about.

[Don Marshall]

Elves and men getting so meta here.

[Alan Sisto]

Cool. I love digging in deep like this. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

All right, let's get even deeper as we move on to the perithil. The half Elven, the sons of Arendil and Elwing, who were just six years old when the sons of Feanor slew most of their people and their mother Elwing cast herself into the sea, holding on to the Silmaril, their status as the only men still living who could be tracing their descendants as the chieftains of the Adain.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Don Marshall]

Those are the Parathyl.

[Alan Sisto]

That's correct. Now, after Gilgalad's death at the end of the second Age, only those descended from Elrond and Elros were of the line of the High Elven King. So they represented the only source for royalty among both elves and men.

[Don Marshall]

Basically all you've got left. It's like, what else is there? Oh, well, we've got Elrond and Elrond. Oh, okay, well.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, now we just have Elrond. You know, 500 years later, Elros is dead. But spoilers, we just got to that. 52 years after the third kinslaying, Elrond and Elros are given the option of choosing which of the kindred they would be considered as elves or men.

[Don Marshall]

Recall everybody that men are mortal and their spirits leave Arda altogether. But they also have more agency and free will. So that is their actions can take place outside of the that is as fate to all else.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, elves are not immortal, though that's kind of the word most people bandy about. They're serially long evil. That is A, they can be killed. They just get rehoused in new bodies. And B, their fate after the end of Arda is unclear. So immortal would be the wrong word.

[Don Marshall]

Whichever choice they made is irrevocable, obviously. Of course it would. You know, choosing to be man, you can't just be a man and be immortal. Getting that ability to work outside the music of the fate, changing your mind right before your death. Probably a little bit of cheating. Cheating?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

As would being an elf. Until you just kind of got tired of Arda and then changing your mind to receive that gift. It's like, oh, sorry, doesn't work like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's been nice to be around for 5,000 years. But I'm done and I want to go someplace else. Where's that gift? Iluvatar.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway, we will address these two, by the way, in reverse order of the text. Only because Elros is so easy to talk about, Right? He chooses to be a man. He's given a long lifespan, even longer than the long lives of the Numenoreans. He actually lives to be 500 years old.

[Don Marshall]

And that like, I love that because it's so, like, isn't 500 enough? But apparently not. Spoilers. Elrond, on the other hand, chose to be counted among the elves. He gets immortality or serial longevity. Your serial longevity. Plus the right to sail west when he grows tired of Middle Earth. Because he has chosen to be of elf kind. His own kids also get that same choice.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, why didn't Elros kids get that choice? Right? Why did Elrond's kids get to choose, but not Elros's kids? Both choices were irrevocable for Elrond and Elros. But the choice to become mortal automatically means that Elros's kids would be mortal. And the Valar don't have the authority to withdraw the Gift of Iluvatar. So once he made that decision, it was made permanently for all of his descendants. But they could still allow Elrond's kids to make the same choice. Arguably, they could have chosen more descendants. They could have said to two generations. But they didn't.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, just the one generation seems kind of.

[Alan Sisto]

And it wouldn't. It turns out it wouldn't matter. Because Arwen's the only one who had offspring. And her offspring was also immediately mortal because she was with a mortal man. So you got any. Any bit of mortal blood, you're mortal.

[Don Marshall]

We've got plans within plan, Weaves within weaves, bloodlines with it. It's it's all very, very, very strange. However, it does bring us back to something we talked about during the questions after nightfall last week.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

One of our guests, Arthur, reminded us of this line that the kids of Elrond either had to pass with Elrond, right, or become mortal. And since Eladon and Elro here weren't on the boat, they chose by that inaction to become mortal. And that is the, I guess, literal understanding of. With him. So that's sort of so how I can understand it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, it certainly is the literal understanding. I don't know that that's the. The reading that I subscribe to. But Tolkien makes it very clear in letter 153. He writes that their end is not told. They delay their choice. So that suggests that their choice could be delayed and remain for a while. And that suggests that the password line does not literally mean on the same ship.

[Don Marshall]

Interesting. All right, so of course then we come back to the whole what is canonical question. And the letters might not actually be that for some people. So that's the thing up in the air. All right, all right, next part. Alan, I think this is you.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, and it's actually the last reading for this episode. As a reward for their sufferings in the cause against Morgoth, the Valar, the guardians of the world granted to the Edain a land to dwell in, removed from the dangers of Middle Earth. Most of them therefore set sail over sea and guided by the Star of Earendell, came to the great isle of Elenna, westernmost of all mortal lands. There they founded the realm of Numenor. There was a tall mountain in the midst of the land, the Meneltarma, and from its summit the far sighted could descry the white Tower of the Haven of the Eldar in Eresseaea. Thence the Eldar came to the Edain and enriched them with knowledge and many gifts. But one command had been laid upon the the ban of the Valar. They were forbidden to sail west out of sight of their own shores, or to attempt to set foot on the Undying Lands. For though a long span of life had been granted to them in the beginning, thrice that of lesser men. They must remain mortal, since the Valar were not permitted to take from them the gift of Men, or the doom of Men, as it was afterwards called. Elros was the first king of Numenor and was afterwards known by the high Elven name Tar Minyatur. His descendants were long lived but mortal. Later, when they became powerful. They begrudged the choice of their forefather, desiring the immortality within the life of the world. That was the fate of the Eldar. And murmuring against the ban in this way, began their rebellion, which under the evil teaching of Sauron, brought about the downfall of Numenor and the ruin of the ancient world, as is told in the Akalabeth.

[Don Marshall]

This feels like another prequel to the actual main course, which of course it is. Yeah. We move on essentially to the establishment of Numenor as a reward to the Edain for everything they endured in their alliance with the Eldar against Morgoth. And it's like setting you up for.

[Alan Sisto]

Stuff, it really is. And let's be real about that, what they endured in their alliance, right. When an elf dies in combat against Morgoth and his Orcs, his spirit, poof, runs off to the halls of Mandos and after a time, unless you're Feanor, receives a new body and everything is good again. And more importantly, every single one of the Eldar knew this to be true. I mean, no, that doesn't make dying on the battlefield any less physically painful, but they knew what was going to happen with their spirits. When a man died in combat against Morgoth, he had no idea where his spirit would go and knew at least this much, no new body was on its way.

[Don Marshall]

Does kind of remind you, if anyone has played Warhammer, as Ellen and I have, I think mentioned a few times, this is very similar to the Stormlord Eternals who basically get to be reborn over and over and over again.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, that's right.

[Don Marshall]

In their never ending battle. And in that way, you know, I, I feel as though Tolkien didn't necessarily hit home as much as I wish he did about the idea of mortality and death, because death for men is so much more permanent than like the death air quotes for elves. So, yeah, I'm, I'm with the Valar here. Give them their land. Don't worry about Middle Earth. It's. It's bad.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I love that. It's a land removed from the dangers of Middle Earth. And we're going to talk about that a lot next week when we look at Numenor itself.

[Don Marshall]

So after the land is established, the men set sail, guided by Earendil, and they come to what the text says is the Great Isle of Elendation, where the kingdom of Numenor is established.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, Elena is the allative form of the Quenya word Elen, meaning star. Now I want to make clear what that is. The Alative form simply means that it's an expression of direction towards. So Elena means toward star. And a little more word nerdery here. The alative means towards. The ablative means from. And we see both ablative and allative forms in the oath of Elendil that Aragorn speaks or sings. If you're looking at the Lord of the Rings films at his coronation. Et aurello Endorena Utulian Erello is the ablative form of the sea. So it means from the sea. And Endorena is the allative form of Endore Middle Earth. So to Middle Earth. So eirelo means from the sea. Endorena means to middle Earth. So in two words we get from the sea to Middle Earth, the island.

[Don Marshall]

Is Elena, which is star. Word towards star.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, or towards star. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

The kingdom of Numenor, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Clearly given next week's section in Unfinished Tales that we're looking at, it's apparently okay to call it the island of Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean technically that's not right. Right. It's technically the island of Elena and the Kingdom of Numenor, but we all call the island Numenor anyway. Right. It's just that's the name of the kingdom that's there, not the name of the island.

[Don Marshall]

Does Tolkien specify that I have to go back?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, very clearly. The island is Elena, though the island is also known as Andor, which means the land of gift. You know your word nerdery enough to mean to recognize door, Gondor, Eriador, etc. Means land or realm. The an prefix is also something we know. Do you remember Annatar's name? Lord of Gifts? So this is the land of gifts, Andor.

[Don Marshall]

I also remember that Andor is perhaps one of the greatest pieces of Star Wars.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you. I was gonna say I absolutely 100 yes.

[Don Marshall]

Back to the Lord of the Rings stuff though. The podcast for Star wars comes later is mentioned and we're going to talk about that a lot next week when we look at a description of the island of Numenor from Unfinished Tales to bring this section to life just a bit more here it is mentioned that far sighted Numenoreans could see the tower at the Haven in Erasea.

[Alan Sisto]

Now I would sit here and do stuff about the curvature of the earth, but guess what? The earth wasn't curved yet. What do your elf I see? Oh, they see a really long way because the earth is still flat.

[Don Marshall]

But anyway, you guys aren't gonna believe this, but this thing that's happening right outside that's right.

[Alan Sisto]

That's absolutely right. Now, that little bit about the far sighted Numenoreans and the tower at the Haven of Erossea segues nicely into the fact that very early on there were really good relations and a lot of communication, a lot of back and forth. Well, mostly fourth, because the Numenoreans were allowed to go to the Eldar, but there was a lot of communication between the Eldar and the Edain. And that does remind me though of the ban of the Valar. That's that law that the men of Numenor are not allowed to go any further west than they could see their own shore. So they. That might actually be a pretty decent distance, given that it's again, not a curved earth, but they're not allowed to even try to get to Valinor.

[Don Marshall]

And this ties back to the gift of men as we've talked about before. The Valar could not take that away from mortals. And as we talked about very late last season, this was episode 339. Mortals in Valinor would wither even as a moth in a flame too bright.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So even if you have a lifespan triple that of ordinary men, you still have to, you know, die. Yeah, just.

[Don Marshall]

Sorry about that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

And in the last paragraph that we covered tonight, we learn a little bit about Elros and his descendants, though we get a full list when we come back to this part of the appendices in two episodes.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Don Marshall]

We learn that he was known by the name Tar Miniatur. That is a Quenya name, High Elven, meaning high first ruler.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now we're going to see that Tar prefix with every single ruler of numero. It means high, and it's everybody that's got that name. Minya means first. Now, we don't really see that at any other place in the published legendarium, but there is a writing where Tolkien's talking about the various tribes of elves. And there's one of the tribes, the Vanyar, that we know were once called the Minyar, which just mean firsts. They were the first tribe of the elves and so they were the Minyar. So Minya means first and then Tur means master or lord, as in Turambar, master of Doom.

[Don Marshall]

It's all coming together. It's just this spider web of interconnecting the language, people and names and languages and words. It's. That's what makes Tolkien so brilliant. It's all connected. We also learned that over time, the Kings regretted Elros's choice to become mortal and wanted the immortality of the elves. Can't see anything going wrong there.

[Alan Sisto]

No, not at all.

[Don Marshall]

This would. No. However, this would lead to a rebellion and the downfall. Spoilers for Rings of Power season three, I suppose the downfall of Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm thinking four. I'm thinking season three is when season four, when Farazan will capture Sauron, they'll come back and they'll build the temple, and then we're gonna get King's Men and the faithful split and season four, or maybe even the opener of season five will be the downfall of Numenor. That's my hunch, but I don't know. I really don't know anything. It could be next episode for all I know.

[Don Marshall]

I really hope not.

[Alan Sisto]

But I think end of season four will be the downfall of Numenor because they got to build the temple.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, it seems right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, they got to give Ari.

[Don Marshall]

A certain person needs. Yeah, well, I mean, they very clearly are getting Ari and some the architect.

[Alan Sisto]

And she's already gone bad. So. Yeah, spoilers. And if you like Rings of Power, or even if you don't like Rings of Power, listen to the Rings of Power. Wrap up.

[Don Marshall]

Seriously, please do. Because not only do we have one segue, what about second segue, Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, you know, the men of Numenor were murmuring against the ban. And that sounds a lot like murmuring against the bag, which is what I hear Bartleman do all the time. Don, what does Bartlem have for us tonight besides hopefully better segues going forward?

[Don Marshall]

No, no such luck. We're all out in the bag. Well, we've been talking a lot the last few episodes about the future of Middle Earth. So our question today will bring us, just like Elsa, into the unknown.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my God, that song in my head, man. Because my daughter's watched that movie 18 million times. Thank you.

[Don Marshall]

This comes from Delilah, New York, who asks, what do you wish Tolkien had written about that he did not. Whether a time period or a land or a people's thing that did not get explored as much as, say, Gondor. And it's a two parter. Do you think that there are still other Tolkien writings out there that we have not yet seen? Like the up and coming poetry book.

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh, the poetry book that we're going to do a kingly gift segment on in a few episodes. I'll answer that second part first. I think with the release of the poetry, which digs really, really deep, and with the release of the nature of Middle Earth, which was sort of like the leftovers from the history of Middle Earth. I don't think there's anything of significance still out there, still hidden, that we're going to get to read down the line. I, I think it's all, almost all out. The rest might be just a handful of notes here and there, but, but, but nothing of significance. Everything of significance Christopher Tolkien put into History of Middle Earth almost, and the things that he didn't. Carl F. Hostetter did when putting together the nature of Middle Earth.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, true.

[Alan Sisto]

So I think we're probably done with the substance of Middle Earth. Like we're not going to find out some secret writing about what happened with the Entwives. You know, I think there's more letters. I do know that. I do know that. Even this expanded edition, because when, when Humphrey Carpenter and Christopher Tolkien put together the original. Set the original letters book back in, I want to say 78, but I may be wrong. They had to cut it down quite a bit by the instructions of the publisher, because otherwise it was going to be too big a book to publish. They were going to do two volumes. So they cut a lot, basically about a third. And what got cut is what got restored in this revised and expanded edition that just came out last year. But there are additional letters, letters that were never even originally in that first set of letters to be published. I think we might eventually see more of those, but I don't think we're going to get any actual Middle Earth writings, so.

[Don Marshall]

Well, I was kind of hoping to have a better answer for Delilah from both of us, but. No, you bring up a good point. You do bring up a good point. I don't believe it at all. I truly believe that there is some desk that is yet to be auctioned off. I would love somewhere I'll have.

[Alan Sisto]

I'll hold out hope.

[Don Marshall]

I'll hold out hope, but some writing desk. Yeah, some thing. Piece of paper behind a painting. Some sort of. Of thing that will tell us obviously not who Tom Bombadil is.

[Alan Sisto]

An exam book that somebody is going to find in their great grandfather's desk and be like, oh, my goodness, look at what Tolkien wrote on the back of this. Or studied and judged to be accurate because nobody can read it. Oh, that's Tolkien, all right. And then we'll find out what happened. Yeah, that's the easy part of Delilah's question, the hard part. But I also say the fun part is what do we wish that Tolkien had written about that he didn't? A time period, A land of People. Oh, man. I mean, everything is what I want to know, right? I want to know everything. I want to know about Rune. I want to know about Harad. I want to know about all the other lands. I want to know about the people of Dale. I want to know about the people of every single place. Give me all of it. Give me all of it. Give me what was going on. I want to. Okay, if I'm going to pick one, I want to know more about the origin of Men. I want to know. I know we get some from the. After Beth. When Andreth is talking about what men believe their origin story was and sort of the journey west, I want that. I want the full version of the origin of Men and the journey of the three houses of the Edain to the west. That's. That would be the one thing I would want.

[Don Marshall]

I dig it. I dig it. So I'm going to. Not to steal yours, but I am also there a little bit as well. Well, I would love to have something like the Ombar fleshed out a little bit more.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Don Marshall]

You've got this pirate culture, second choice that is just, like, ripe for the pickings. Just take it. Do what you got to do. And. And I. I wish that there was something there. I truly do, because I think there's.

[Alan Sisto]

I especially want it tied in with more understanding of that Gondorian civil war and the whole, you know, customer usurper and his descendants. And, I mean, that. That bitterness that went on for generations between Umar and Gondor, there's a story there.

[Don Marshall]

I just don't know how to flesh it out or to get it, because it just. It doesn't exist in a way that Tolkien would find even acceptable because it's just these little, you know, footnotes, which is a story to him, but not exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I mean, I will say this. If you're gonna find, like, a. A fictional adaptation of that. I've been playing Lord of the Rings online, and the. The Umbar expansion, which is the current endgame, is fantastic in that regard. Tells a really good story there.

[Don Marshall]

Excellent.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I. Again, I'm not trying to vouch for the authenticity of it. It's not like they found secret Tolkien notes, but it is a fun way of fleshing out the story, and it's really well done. Very beautiful.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, I quite like it, man.

[Alan Sisto]

There's so much, though, that I want written more about. I want to know more. I want to know more about. I want to know more about why the three sons of. Oh, goodness, I'm Losing my recollection. The last king of Arnor before it got split into the three realms of Arthedain, Rhudauer and Cardalan. I want to know why the three sons decided it was worth splitting up the kingdom. I mean, that was the beginning of the downfall of Arnor. Oh, yeah, like, come on, keep that kingdom intact. And then you have a better claim when you end up in the south after the. Oh, I just want to know more about that, I guess for me, it's all about the men, right? I want to know more about their origins. I want to know more about that split. I want to know more about Umbar. I feel like we already know a lot about the elves.

[Don Marshall]

I don't know. We do. We do. I mean, the. Most of the Silmarillion is dedicated to the elves and the inner workings, the trappings, the. The bad stuff about the elves. Tell us. Like, you know what? I want the good stuff about the elves. Tell us the stuff that didn't make the Silmarillion. All of the little stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Publish a. Publish a book about all the good things Feanor did. And then comes a pamphlet, like a house sheep poster.

[Don Marshall]

This is my science fair project. I do not think that Feanor did anything wrong. My hypothesis. Sorry, I'm reverting back to grade school.

[Alan Sisto]

But there's a little postage stamp. It lists all the accomplishments of Feyen or, you know. Yeah, all right, I guess we have to have the Feanor pinata make an additional appearance, don't we?

[Don Marshall]

I think so. I think so, yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Will it come back? I make no promises, but we'll see. Folks, that does wrap it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. But please be sure to come back next week when after only one episode in the appendices proper, we take a break to visit unfinished Tales and learn more about the home of Elros and his people in a description of the island of Numenor.

[Don Marshall]

Spoiler alert. It looks like a star. Am I really going to be here for a. We've had one. Yes. What about second version of the map chapter, Alan? Really? Are we doing okay? Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolute map chapter.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, provided I haven't pulled all of my hair out before then. Alan and I very much want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you're gonna find show notes and outtakes. It's where you'll find Prancing Pony ponderings that maybe one day I'll write more Our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including all the really cool episode artwork that Megan done for the PPP over the last two seasons, and more.

[Don Marshall]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books, so if you're interested in a book that we have mentioned in the show, you will find a link for it in our library. We get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase and we do thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Cirdance contribution tier. I'll start with demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Karen in the uk, June in Ireland, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, and Keith in Alabama.

[Don Marshall]

There's also Erica in Texas, Carson in Oklahoma, Viv, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California and Joe in Maryland. Thank you all very much for the support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Don Marshall]

You also make sure you don't miss an episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcasting app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing, as always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and, well, most of all, your one paragraph versions of the Silver Iliad. Too long didn't read to parliamenthebrancypohningpodcast.com if.

[Don Marshall]

You want your voice literally heard, just send us audio of your questions, visit pod inbox.com prancingponypod and record your questions for us. Please, though, be sure to email the questions to Barleyman.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, even though Barliman's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through and we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But as until next time, I have.

[Don Marshall]

Been a pinata shaped like Feanor, and that has been Alan Sisto, the Hotel Thangaraja manager. Ch Ch Chumba Looking for excitement? Chumba Casino is here. Play anytime, Play anywhere. Play on the train, play at the store. Play at home. Play when you're bored. Play today for your chance to win and get daily bonuses when you log in. So what are you waiting for? Don't delay. Chumba Casino is free to play. Experience social gameplay like never before. Go to Chumba Casino right now to play hundreds of games, including online slots, bingo, Slingo and more. Live the chumba [e-mail] VGW approved no purchase necessary. Void Web Prohibited by law. See terms and conditions 18.