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- [00:12]
Alan Sisto
Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 349 of the Prancing Pony Podcast, where the Wayne writers really messed things up for Gondor.
- [00:19]
Don Marshall
Pellendor didn't really help matters, though. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I am Don Marshall, the obscure Lord of the Rings, Facts guy. And I am here with the man of the west who. Whose claim upon the throne of Gondor has been rejected, Alan Sisto.
- [00:33]
Alan Sisto
Well, I guess for good reason, to be honest. I mean, yeah, who can blame him? I'm a little short to be the King of Gondor. Folks, join us as Arved we argues in the Dunedain dismiss as we work our way through Appendix A14, covering the end of the kings in Gondor.
- [00:49]
Don Marshall
Folks, no matter how you arrived, you are all welcome here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast, where we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.
- [00:59]
Alan Sisto
And we love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more.
- [01:03]
Don Marshall
But we do try to keep it light and fun. Think of this like a couple of friends chatting at a pub. And we're very glad you've joined us.
- [01:08]
Alan Sisto
Are you saying you're old enough to go to a pub now, Don? You know, I got you speechless, didn't I? You did. Happy birthday to you, by the way.
- [01:19]
Don Marshall
Thank you very much.
- [01:20]
Alan Sisto
As we're recording this, his birthday was very recent, so I do have to wish him that. Now, folks, I am sure that you'll be glad you joined as well once we get past the bad jokes. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time for fan favorite Philology Fair. Now, we'll start with an easy one, and it's the name of Arvedui, the last king of Arthedain, which spoilers we know because it says that his name means last king. The first element is something you should certainly recognize by now, ar or Ara, meaning noble or royal. We see that everywhere, like in Aragorn, Arwen, Argonath, and so on. So the second element is the lenited form vedwi with a V of the element medwi with an m meaning last. And we see this exact form of Vedwe in one other spot in the Lord of the Rings, it's back when Glorfindel encounters Strider and the hobbits. Then he cries out, ay na vedwi dunedan megovanen. Well, in parma, El de Lambaran 17, Tolkien translates Glorfindel's cry as Ah, at last Dunedan well met. So Vedwi is last. Now we see the same root of the original element Medwi. We see the same root met in the oath of Elendil. Et erello endrena utulien sinumaruvan arhildeniar 10ambar metta. And that's out of the great sea to Middle Earth I am come. In this place will I abide and my heirs unto the ending of the world. That ending of the world Ambar meta. Same element, just that it undergoes a soft mutation from M to V. Love that song.
- [02:55]
Don Marshall
Just Viggo Mortensen's interpretation of it gets me every time. It is so good.
- [02:59]
Alan Sisto
I it. I don't know. Did you hear when we did that in Stewart and the King? I actually tried to sing it. It took like 17 takes, but yeah.
- [03:09]
Don Marshall
You got to get it just right. We also see that met root in methedras, which means last peak. And a song about one of my favor well known characters, Borondir.
- [03:21]
Alan Sisto
Well known characters. You're saying too much. Nobody knows who Barondir is.
- [03:26]
Don Marshall
Well, he is a little known character. He was one of only six Gondorian riders sent by Cirion to make it to Aorl in the north of the story of Cirion and Eorl. That song is called Rohan Mephisto Rider of the Last Hope. So even though there were six of them, it only is one.
- [03:44]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, because he's the only one who made it. So he was the Rohan Mestel, the writer of the Last Hope. Now later in this episode, we'll talk about his claim. That is Arvedui, not Barondir. Arvedui's claim on the kingship of Gondor after the death of Ondaher and his sons. But first, let's take a look at the name On Deher.
- [04:00]
Don Marshall
Yeah, we mentioned the meaning of On Deher's name in passing last week near the end of that discussion, where we were looking at the names Tarandor. This is the nephew of King Telemnar who died alongside with his children in the plague of 1636. We mentioned that Tarondor's name means king of stones and referenced onto her's name Stone Lord, to help illustrate the point.
- [04:22]
Alan Sisto
Right.
- [04:22]
Don Marshall
And that is is in fact the meaning of his Quenya name Ondohere. The ondo element means stone, as in the the material, as opposed to like a small individual stone, which was Quenya sar. Think of Elisar meaning elf stone. Ando is Cognate with Sindarin's. Cognate with Sindarin, Gond or Gondo, which we see in a lot of words, like Gondor, Gon, Hirim, masters of stone, Argonath, royal stones. But we also see the Quenya Ondo in the original Quenya name for Gondolin, Ondolinde, singing Stone or stone of music.
- [04:59]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now, there was also a town or settlement in Numenor that we saw a few episodes back when we looked at the island of Numenor, called Ondosto. And that means stone city or stone fortress, which Christopher Tolkien believes was named after the stone quarries in the area. But the really interesting thing about Ondohere's name is that in the original drafts of the appendices and even in the first edition of the Lord of the Rings, his name was not Ondoher, but Ondohir, with h I r instead of H e r. Now, that's a mixed name, with the Quenya element for stone still Ondo, but the Sindarin element for Lord Hir, as in Rohirrim, horse lords, or Gwaihir Windlord. Now, for the second edition, Tolkien changed it back to the pure Quenya version, Ondohere. That final element, her, is from the Quenya element heru, meaning lord or master. And we see that in the names of Kyria, her ship Lord, the 15th king of Gondor, who would later take the name Hyrumendacil, and Herunumen. The heretical Quenya Name of the 20th Ruler of Numenor are Adunokor.
- [06:01]
Don Marshall
Then there's the name of his daughter, Furiel, the only of his children to survive the plague. Maybe because she was married to Arvedui and, you know, living far to the north when the plague, it didn't quite hit as hard in that area. She shares a name with none other than Feanor's mom, who was called Miriel during her life, but was given the name Feriel when she died.
- [06:23]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now, that Iel suffix, that's somewhat common, and you've seen it in other women's names. It means daughter literally, but it is often applied simply as a feminine suffix. So I, E, l. Pretty straightforward. The fir element is actually a verb meaning to die. And for more on that, I want to go to Morgoth's ring. That's volume 10 of the history of Middle Earth, where Tolkien writes, before the passing of Miriel, the Eldar of Valinor had no word for dying in this manner. Natural, peaceful, that is though they had words for being destroyed in body or being slain, but firae meant to expire as of one sighing or releasing a deep breath. And at the passing of Miriel, she had sighed a great sigh and then lay still. And those who stood by said, she hath breathed forth this word the Eldar afterwards used of the death of men.
- [07:16]
Don Marshall
Huh. So the name means literally. Correct me if I'm wrong, Alan. She that died or she that sighed.
- [07:23]
Alan Sisto
Correct. Both, really. I mean, in a literal sense, she that sighed, but it references or represents she that died.
- [07:29]
Don Marshall
Got it. But in this case, I think it's simply mortal woman. I'm not sure you want a name that, you know, constantly reminds you of your own mortality, so.
- [07:38]
Alan Sisto
That's a very good point.
- [07:39]
Don Marshall
Yeah, thanks for that one.
- [07:41]
Alan Sisto
Hi, mortal woman. My name. Never mind, I'm not interested.
- [07:45]
Don Marshall
Hi, my name is. My death is imminent. But no, there is another name, though, that we need to take a look at next, and it is the name of the guy that gave Arvedui his name and comes up a little bit more. The seer and loremaster of Arthedain. This is Malbeth.
- [08:03]
Alan Sisto
Oh, I like that. I like that. Yeah. Because Arvedwi wasn't named Arvedwi by his parents, he was named Arvedwi by Malbeth the Seer. Now, there are two very simple Sindarin elements here that combine to mean golden word. That's an apt name for a seer as good as Malbeth. The mal element comes from malt, meaning gold as metal, as opposed to golden in color, which is Laura. Now, we see this mal or malt element in things that don't actually have any gold medal whatsoever, Most notably the Mallorn gold tree, Malos gold flower, and a couple of the names of the kings of Arthedain, including Malvigil the sixth king, whose name means sword of gold. Now, the beth element in Malbeth's name is the lanaid form of peth, with a p meaning word. Now, we don't see that element often, but it is there in the Athrabeth, which means interchange of words. That's why we call it a debate. And one of the spells that Gandalf tries to use to open the doors of Moria. I love this. He says, fennas nogothrim lasto beth lam, which means doorway of the dwarf folk. Listen to the word of my tongue. So golden word is Malbeth.
- [09:13]
Don Marshall
Oh, Tolkien's linguistics again. It feels like I say this every episode of the podcast, because you do.
- [09:19]
Alan Sisto
But it's still true.
- [09:20]
Don Marshall
Yeah, it's still true. We only have two more to go, though. They are the names of the new king of Gondor after Orodreth's passing and the decision of the council to reject arvedui's claim. This is Earnil and his son Earnor. Both have the very familiar ear prefix that means the sea or great sea that we encounter with Earendil, Earwen and many more. So that is a good start.
- [09:44]
Alan Sisto
Exactly. So you know already that C, or the great sea, is part of their name. And Earnil's name uses the shortened suffix of Endil making his name simply a shorter form of Earendil's name. So it means the same thing, Lover of the Sea. Similarly, Earnur's name uses the shortened version of Endur meaning a shorter version of Earendur's name which means servant of the sea. There you have it.
- [10:08]
Don Marshall
Speaking of sea, I think I see the next portion is a reading. Alan, would you like to begin for us?
- [10:13]
Alan Sisto
I think I will. All right. We're going to pick up with the third Evil. The third Evil was the invasion of the Wainriders which sapped the waning strength of Gondor in wars that lasted for almost a hundred years. The Wainriders were a people or a confederacy of many peoples that came from the east. But they were stronger and better armed than any that had appeared before. They journeyed in great wanes and their chieftains fought in chariots. Stirred up, as was afterwards seen, by the emissaries of Sauron. They made a sudden assault upon Gondor and King Narmacil II was slain in battle with them. Beyond Anduin in 1856, the people of eastern and southern Rhovanion were enslaved and the frontiers of Gondor were for that time withdrawn to the Anduin and the Emen Muil. At this time it is thought that the Ringwraiths re entered Mordor. Calimechtar, son of Narmacil ii, helped by a revolt in Rhovanion, avenged his father with a great victory over the Easterlings upon Dagorlad in 1899. And for a while the peril was averted. It was in the reign of Araphant in the north and of Ondaher, son of Kalemechtar in the south that the two kingdoms again took counsel together after long silence and estrangement. For at last they perceived that some single power and will was directing the assault from many quarters upon the survivors of Numenor. It was at that time that Arvedui, heir of Araphant, wedded Firiel, daughter of Ondaher. But neither kingdom was able to send help to the other, for Angmar renewed its attack upon Arthedain. At the same time as the Wainriders reappeared in great force. Many of the Wainriders now passed south of Mordor and made alliance with men of Khand and of Nir Harad. And in this great assault from north and south, Gondor came near to destruction. In 1944, King Ondaher and both his sons, Artemir and Faramir, fell in battle north of the Meranon, and the enemy poured into Ithilien. But Earnil, captain of the southern army, won a great victory in South Ithilien and destroyed the army of Harad that had crossed the River Poros. Hastening north, he gathered to him all that he could of the retreating northern army and came up against the main camp of the Wainriders. While they were feasting and reveling, believing that Gondor was overthrown and that nothing remained but to take the spoils, Arnall stormed the camp and set fire to the wanes and drove the enemy in a great rout out of Ithilian. A great part of those who fled before him perished in the dead marshes.
- [12:49]
Don Marshall
We've had one evil. Yes. What about second evil? Oh, I know. I guess we've had that, too. All right, what about third evil?
- [12:56]
Alan Sisto
Sure. Five Wain Riders. Let's do it. Yeah.
- [13:00]
Don Marshall
So this is the Invasion of the Wain Riders, which began, according to.
- [13:03]
Alan Sisto
Not to be confused with the Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
- [13:06]
Don Marshall
Right. That is a completely different franchise. However, one we will, or at least I would like to cover many years from now, once we finish all the Tolkien stuff.
- [13:14]
Alan Sisto
Oh, okay.
- [13:15]
Don Marshall
I'm setting up Alan, for, like, six different podcasts in the future. Just let me cook. So this is the Invasion of the Wain Riders. It began according to the Tale of Years. This is third age 1851. But it would last until the third age 1944. But we don't want to get, you know, too ahead of ourselves.
- [13:31]
Alan Sisto
There's a lot. Now, the first thing to know about these Wain Riders is that they were stirred up by the Emissaries of Sauron. Now, just as he was behind the great plague in 1636, here he is a couple of centuries later, continuing to try to weaken Gondor. After all, he is not yet strong enough on his own to defeat Gondor.
- [13:50]
Don Marshall
Yeah, he needs his little buddies help. So who are these Wain riders, not little buddies. In fact, the text says that they are a confederacy of many peoples that came from the east, said to travel in large wagons with their leaders fighting in chariots and lots of horses.
- [14:06]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now what's interesting about that, if you'll pardon a brief sidebar.
- [14:12]
Don Marshall
I will Ish.
- [14:13]
Alan Sisto
Which are you snorting at? The fact that it's a sidebar. The fact that it's supposedly going to be brief.
- [14:17]
Don Marshall
Yes.
- [14:18]
Alan Sisto
Okay, fair enough. So if you'll pardon the sidebar, there are some parallels between the Wain riders and the Huns of the primary world. Now, from what we know about the huns from the 6th century Roman writer Jordanus, the Huns came from the east, historically fought alongside allied peoples like the Ostrogoths, used horses extensively, and most interestingly, defeated and enslaved Goths. Remember last week when we pointed out how Tolkien used Gothic names for the Northmen since they were the predecessors of the Rohirrim who used Old English names? Well, not a surprise. Tolkien was very familiar with Gothic. Take a look at letter 272. As well as Latin, the language in which Jordanus history of the Goths was written. For that you can take a look at letters 163 and 294, and frankly, we might look at those in the postscript for this episode, get really deep into his understanding of Gothic and Latin and then maybe tie this together.
- [15:10]
Don Marshall
Yeah, it's a lot going on and especially we've got letter 289 to his son Michael, written in 1966. Tolkien says something about Mirkwood that's actually fascinating. He writes, mirkwood is not an invention of mine, but a very ancient name weighted with legendary associations. It was probably the primitive Germanic name, name for the great mountainous forest regions that anciently formed a barrier of the south of the lands of Germanic expansion. In some traditions, it became used especially of the boundary between Goths and Huns.
- [15:45]
Alan Sisto
Now that is interesting. So the name Mirkwood has a legendary connection to the boundary between Goths and Huns. And we already know that the Northmen are essentially Goths. They've been given Gothic names for a very clear reason. So if a real world comparison is to be made between the Northmen and the Goths, then the same can certainly be said for the Wainriders and the Huns. Now, again, this is not arguing for a one to one allegorical connection. We're just pointing out some possible sources of inspiration.
- [16:14]
Don Marshall
Yeah, but this group of Wainriders, clearly not the first they are better equipped than previous invasions. Their attacks are significant enough that King Narma Kill ii, whose name means Fire Sword. This is like we mentioned. We went through the line of kings and we encountered the lazy son of Alkarin.
- [16:31]
Alan Sisto
Yes, that would have been Narmacil the First. This is King Narmacil ii? Yes. Same name, different guy. And this guy actually is more Fire Swordy. Yeah.
- [16:38]
Don Marshall
Yeah, he is. He leads his men into battle with them. However, he is killed in 1856.
- [16:44]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now, there's more on this from Unfinished Tales. Not surprisingly, in the earlier portion of the story of Kirjana Naoral we read first that while the Northmen were slow to recover from the plague that would have been 1636, the peoples further east had been equally afflicted so there weren't any attacks to fend off. But then we read. But when the invasions of the Wainriders began and involved Gondor in wars that lasted for almost a hundred years the Northmen bore the brunt of the first assaults. King Narmacill II took a great army north into the plains south of Mirkwood and gathered all that he could of the scattered remnants of the Northmen. But he was defeated and himself fell in battle. The remnant of his army retreated over the Dagorlad into Ithilien and Gondor abandoned all lands east of the Anduin, save Athelian.
- [17:33]
Don Marshall
So he brought the Gondorian army up for this, joined what was left of the Northmen and then promptly, you know, got himself killed in battle. Very Feanorian of him. The defeat was actually so bad that Gondor basically gave up all of their lands east of the Anduin aside from that small little region of Ithilien. That's a huge loss for Galador.
- [17:52]
Alan Sisto
It's a huge loss. I mean, remember when we talked about the realm, the size of the realm and how it went all the way up to the Celebrant and, you know, all the way over to the Sea of Rhun. I mean, we had another king earlier who was defeating enemies on the other side of the Sea of Rhun. And now they've abandoned all their lands east of the Anduin aside from that small strip of Ithilien. Now, as for how that remnant of his army escaped and retreated, I love this. There is a really, really cool footnote here in Unfinished Tales about this. It tells us that the escape of the army of Gondor from total destruction was in part due to the courage and loyalty of the Horsemen of the Northmen. Under Marhari, a descendant of Virugavia, King of Rhovanion. We met him before involved, you know, it was his daughter that married the king of Gondor, led to the civil war, who acted as rearguard.
- [18:41]
Don Marshall
Now recall how Valacar, this is the king, king's heir of Gondor. He went north and he was dwelling with Vidugavia, fell in love with the north, married his daughter, uniting Gondor and the Northmen, all of that stuff. Well, Marhari was kin to Narma Kill II and helped his people escape by fighting a valiant guard for basically the retreat of those people. One that as we're going to read in a moment, did cost him his life.
- [19:06]
Alan Sisto
I love that. I think there's something to be said about these noble sacrifices. Fighting rear guard actions to protect the retreat of a historically important force.
- [19:17]
Don Marshall
Not to belabor the point, that's a World War I reference as well, I think for. Okay, that's a huge thing that happened especially when the British were retreating. The British Special Forces were the last line of defense for, you know, the, the 14 year olds and 18 year olds that were lining up to defend and they were, you know, trying to help them escape and get on the trains. I love that. Sorry. Another brief World War I side.
- [19:37]
Alan Sisto
I appreciate that because I mean, I, I'm thinking the rear guard action that Hurin and Huor fought, you know, to allow Turgon and the Gondolyndrim to escape from the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, right? They're the ones who are there fighting to protect them, enabling them to get away because the minute Gondolin falls, right, the rest of, of Elvendom in Beleriand is going to fall. I mean, that's the end of things. So they fight and they sacrifice themselves, knowing they're going to die. I mean, who or even says, you know, from you and for me, a new star shall arise. I know I'm not going to see your White City again. I'm going to die here. But I'm going to die and in so doing enable you to get back to your city and from you these historical things are going to come. So here, Marhari pulling a Hurin and Huor sacrifices himself to allow the remnants of Narmacil's army to escape. But that is not all that we learn there, right? It turns out that even though Gondor was defeated and King Narmacil II was killed, they had actually managed to really hurt the Wain Riders. And the text explains the forces of Gondor had inflicted such losses on the Wain riders that they had not strength enough to press their invasion until reinforced from the east and were content for the time to complete their conquest of Rhovanion.
- [20:51]
Don Marshall
It's really nice for Gondor. Maybe not so nice for the Northmen that are remaining in Rhovania, unfortunately. Yeah. A few, it is said, fled over the Kelduin river running and were merged with the folk of Dale under Erebor, whom they were also akin. Some took refuge in Gondor, while others were gathered by Marhwini, son of Marhari, who fell in that rearguard action. After the Battles of the Plains, passing north between Mirkwood and Anduin, they settled in the vales of Onduin, where they were joined by many fugitives who came through the forest. This was the beginning of the Eotheod, though nothing was known of it in Gondor for many years. Most of the Northmen were reduced to servitude, and all their former lands were occupied by the Wain Riders.
- [21:37]
Alan Sisto
Now we're going to spend a lot more time on this when I cover Kyrian and Aorl as a very extended sidebar. Think seven episodes or so to Appendix A2 on the House of Aoral. Now that will be with Matt from the Nerd of the Rings, and we'll be running those in starting in January.
- [21:53]
Don Marshall
Very apt timing given the release of a movie that will be coming out very soon. Nicely done, nicely done. We also get some more information though, from Christopher Tolkien, because he also explains that the information in the Unfinished Tales account doesn't conflict with the Lord of the Rings account, though he does acknowledge it doesn't mention a lot like Ramenda Kill II's defeat of the Easterlings in 1248, the fact that Gondor took in many of the Northmen, or the marriage of Valacar to that Northman's princess right now.
- [22:25]
Alan Sisto
Still, though Christopher points out, it adds things that aren't in the Lord of the Rings version. That the waning of the Northmen of Rhovanion was due to the great plague, that the battle in which King Narma Kill II was slain in the year 1856, said in appendix A to have been beyond Anduin, was in the wide lands south of Mirkwood and was known as the Battle of the Plains, and that his great army was saved from annihilation by the Wain riders through the rear guard defense of Marhari, descendant of Viavia.
- [22:51]
Don Marshall
We got to come back to the text in the Appendices though, because we do get a brief mention of what we've seen here in the Unfinished Tales account that the people of Rhovanian were enslaved and Gondor pulled back their borders. We also then get the foreboding mention that the Nazgul re enter Mordor around the same time.
- [23:11]
Alan Sisto
So what I'm hearing here is you knock Gondor down and it gets up again. You ain't ever going to keep it down, are you?
- [23:19]
Don Marshall
That's our podcast, folks. Thanks so much for coming. Special thanks to our editor, Jordan PPP community manager Kate McKenna Patreon.
- [23:26]
Alan Sisto
And it gets up again. You never gotta keep it down. All right. Narma killed the second son, Kalimekhtar, whose name is Koenya for bright warrior, got vengeance for his father's death by defeating the wainriders at Dagarlod 43 years later in third age 1899.
- [23:42]
Don Marshall
That's right. Even if the father is knocked down, the son will get back up again. And though the description here is rather brief, helped by a revolt in Raanian, we have a lot more for you from Unfinished Tales, starting with this but at length. King Ktar, son of Narmakil ii, being free from the other dangers, determined to avenge the defeat of the Battle of the Plains, messengers came to him from Marhwini, warning him that the Wainriders were plotting to raid Calenardhan over the Undeeps. But they said also that a revolt of the Northmen who had been enslaved was being prepared and would burst into flame if the Wainriders became involved in war.
- [24:27]
Alan Sisto
So the Northmen who had been taken as slaves were getting ready to lead an uprising. And if the Easterlings were drawn into battle right, so they wouldn't have as many numbers there, perhaps then these Northmen slaves and the uprising could maybe do something about all this. So Kalamechtar takes his army up through Ithilien and purposefully did not hide his approach or his numbers. The idea, his objective really was to draw the Wain riders into battle, and for a very good reason. As we read at length, battle was joined upon the Dagorlad, and the result was long in doubt. But at its height, horsemen that Kalemechtar had sent over, the Undeeps, left unguarded by the enemy, joined with a great Ered led by Marhwini, assailed the Wainriders in flank and rear, and this proved to be a crushing defeat for the Wainriders, who turned tail and ran back north.
- [25:15]
Don Marshall
Love to see it. So while King Kalamektar didn't pursue them. We read that the horsemen of Marhwini harried the fugitives and inflicted great loss upon them in their long route over the plains until they were within far sight of Mirkwood. There they left them, taunting them, fly east, not north. Folk of Sauron, see the homes you stole are in flames, for there was a great smoke going up.
- [25:41]
Alan Sisto
I love that. That would, of course, be the slave revolt. Now, unfortunately, as is probably the case more often than not when it comes to slave revolts, most of them died in the attempt. The Wayne Riders, of course, left behind their youths and old men, aided by the younger women, who in that people were also trained in arms and fought fiercely.
- [26:00]
Don Marshall
Marhwini pulled his people out and the Northmen never returned to their former homes, while Kalimekhtar went back to Gondor, which enjoyed a brief break from war for about 45 years. 37 years later, this is in third age 1936, Kalamektar died and his son Ondaher became King of Gondor. And then, sometime between then and the third age 1940, Ondoher and the then king of Arthedain, Ariphant, got together to talk about these attacks.
- [26:29]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now, they both believed, correctly, of course, that there was a unified attempt to attack the people who had escaped the downfall of Numenor. Of course, Sauron is the one behind all of this. Now, in third age 1940, Arafat's son Arvedui, and yes, we're talking about the same Arvedui that we talked about two episodes ago, married Ondoher's daughter, Firio.
- [26:50]
Don Marshall
But even with this allegiance strengthened in marriage, neither of those kings was able to help the other. Because in the North, Angmar is attacking Arthedain, and in the south, the Wainriders have decided to appear just again.
- [27:01]
Alan Sisto
Again, One more time. Why not? Third time's a charm. Now, the text tells us that the Wain riders allied themselves with Haradrim and the men of Khand. Now, just a very quick thing on condition we don't know anything about it, all right? We know nothing about Khand or its people who are called the Varyags. In the Return of the King, when we read about the Varyags of Khand that were kept in reserve. Now, we speculated last season that since the word Varyag is a Slavic word derived from Norse varingar, meaning mercenary people, Tolkien may have been suggesting that the Varyags were mercenaries serving Khan. But we don't know. And that's all we have on Khand.
- [27:38]
Don Marshall
So now we have forces attacking Gondor from both the south, Harad and Khand. And from the north, the Wain riders pushing Gondor basically to the brink.
- [27:46]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [27:47]
Don Marshall
Then in the Third Age, 1944, King Andoher and both of his sons, Artemir and Faramir. Not the Faramir we knew. This is a previous Faramir. They were killed in battle near the Morannon.
- [27:58]
Alan Sisto
And there's such a great story on that, but we'll have to cover that when we get to Kitaryon and Aora later this season. Now, after the enemy came into Athilien, they encountered Ail in his force. He already destroyed the southern half of this threat. He ended up storming their camp, burning their wanes routing the Wainriders with a large number of them dying in the Dead Marshes.
- [28:17]
Don Marshall
Now, there's a lot more of this in Unfinished Tales but we're only bringing you a few bits and pieces so that we can leave something for you and Matt to cover later this season.
- [28:26]
Alan Sisto
Absolutely. So there we learn in Unfinished Tales that after the defeat by Katamekhtar the Wainriders licked their wounds and plotted their revenge. It turns out they were eager for conquests and booty and filled with hatred of Gondor. But they waited a long time to do anything about it.
- [28:42]
Don Marshall
Yeah, primarily because they didn't know how weak Gondor was. They were afraid that it was bigger and stronger than it was in reality. Plus, they'd been in conflict with the people of Khand and the Haradrim. But eventually, as our primary text in the appendix tells us a peace and alliance was agreed between these enemies of Gondor and an attack was prepared.
- [29:03]
Alan Sisto
Now, the appendix doesn't give us any of the in between here. It just says that King Ondoher and his sons all died in third age, 1944. But of course, there is more in Unfinished Tales. That information was, according to the text deduced from the events long afterwards by historians to whom it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom was due to the machinations of Sauron.
- [29:33]
Don Marshall
It is always that slimy little guy, isn't it?
- [29:37]
Alan Sisto
In other words, the Wain Riders and the east, all these people that are allying to go on Gondor. These historians are realizing that they didn't have the will or the wisdom to defeat Gondor on their own. It was all Sauron that was driving them so that's why it hurts, because Sauron is like, you know, using lesser.
- [29:51]
Don Marshall
That does kind of hurt. You know, you're not smart enough or strong enough to come together to fight your enemy. But you know, Sauron can make it happen through his little manipulations. We do learn that Gondor was warned about the Wain Riders recovery and that they were raiding some of the lands of the Northmen. It's not like Gondor, you know, ignored the warning. It's just there's not much that they could have done about it.
- [30:12]
Alan Sisto
No, there really wasn't. They, they were still, realistically still recovering from the plague, just like the Northmen were and just like even the Wainriders were. Now we will save the actual description of this series of battles, of the tragic deaths of Andehere and his sons and the victory of Earnil for the discussion of Kirian and Eoral later this season and move on. And we will come back right after the break. It's the new year and it's time to start tackling those things you've been putting off for too long. You've been kicking around a business idea for a while now and you're wondering how you're going to make 2025 different. Look, it's time to do this and Shopify is how you're going to get it done. Shopify makes it easy to create your own brand, open up your business and get that all important first sale. You can get your store up without any coding skills. Man, I couldn't code my way out of a paper sack. You just drag and drop with thousands of customizable templates. Shopify handles all the details that would bog you down. Things like shipping, taxes, payments, all from one easy to use dashboard so that you can focus on the important stuff growing your business. Speaking of which, Shopify has really powerful social media tools to connect all of your channels and create posts so that you can sell where people scroll. Don't kick yourself when you hear this again in a year because you spent 2025 still thinking about it with Shopify. Your first sale is closer than you think. Established in 2025. Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase go to shopify.com pony to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com pony it's the new year, so it's time to start turning your resolutions into reality. I know for me that means getting back to the gym after a rough year fitness wise and well, without getting too blunt. That also means trying to smell better. And there's a resolution we could all use. I've been using Mando. It's a whole body deodorant. I've been using it for a few weeks now and I've really been happy with. Well, with smelling better. Mando is a whole body deodorant so you don't just use it on your armpits. Any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control. You can use Mando there. Yes, there too. It's proven to block and control odors all day, even in this tiny podcast booth. And it's available in solid stick spray or even creams now. Personally, I like the Pro Sport scent, but Bourbon Leather is pretty nice too. Now, as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code. Now that equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Use code pony@shopmando.com S H O P M A N D O.com Please support our show and tell them we sent you Smell Fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence with Mando. Soon we're going to get back to the aftermath of King Ondaher's death, but before we do, we want to remind you that there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.
- [33:29]
Don Marshall
The PPP has an amazing listener community, some of whom are listening to us on Discord right now, and they are constantly coming up with ways to make Alan and I laugh as we record these things, as well as great questions and discussions across all of our social media spaces. You can check out the Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and much more.
- [33:47]
Alan Sisto
Now on Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news, but you're going to want to join the group for some great discussions or.
- [33:55]
Don Marshall
If you prefer Reddit, find us there at R Prancing Pony Pod on Twitter and Instagram. We are simply at Prancing Ponypod now.
- [34:02]
Alan Sisto
If you want daily Tolkien content. And again, I'm just going to say this, who doesn't check out today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Silmarillion Saturdays. Be sure to check it out@YouTube.com times and follow Tolkien Times on all your social media. Don would you pick up the next reading about Malbeth, one of my Favorite.
- [34:28]
Don Marshall
Parts of the entire book? Yes, absolutely. So we will skip a paragraph and head to the Council of Gondor. The Council of Gondor answered, the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Mineldil son of Anarion to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor. To this Arvedui replied, elendil had two sons of whom Isildur was the elder and the heir of his father. We have heard that the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the line of the kings of Gondor since he was accounted the High King of all lands of the Dunedain while Elendil still lived, the conjoint rule of the south was committed to his sons. But when Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father and committed the rule in the south in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided forever. Moreover, in Numenor of old the scepter descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile, ever troubled by war. But such was the law of our people to which we now refer seeing that the sons of Ondahir died childless. To this, Gondor made no answer. The crown was claimed by Earnil, a victorious captain and it was granted to him with the approval of all the Dunedain in Gondor since he was of the royal house. He was son of Siriondil, son of Calimakil, son of Arkirios, brother of Narmakil ii. Arvedui did not press his claim for he had neither the power nor the will to oppose the choice of the Dunedain of Gondor. Yet the claim was never forgotten by his descendants even when their kingship had passed away. For the time was now drawing near when the North Kingdom would come to an end. Arvedui was indeed the last king, as his name signifies. It is said that his name was given to him at his birth by Malbeth the Seer who said to his father, arvedui, you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dunedain and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass until the Dunedain arise and are united again.
- [37:14]
Alan Sisto
All right, that whole section has got a lot of stuff to talk through but I want to start with the paragraph that we skipped. Right there. We read about the claims of Arvedui. Now, I'm sure you remember a couple of weeks ago when we talked about Arvedui, the last king of Arthedain and his unfortunate death in Forochel in third age 1974.
- [37:33]
Don Marshall
But let's rewind that 30 years to third age 1944. This is after the death of King Ondoher and his sons. At that point, Arvedui, who is not yet King of Arnor, believes that he is qualified to take the crown of Gondor and once he succeeds his father Ariphant as King of Arthedain to reunite the realms in exile and rule as High King. And he has basically two arguments for the claim. Alan, you want to take the first?
- [37:57]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. So the first is that he is a direct descendant of Isildur and that Isildur never relinquished his royalty in Gondor. He just handed over leadership to Meneldil, the son of his brother Anarion. If you remember, Isildur and Anarion were co rulers of Gondor but both subject to their father Elendil, who reigned as King of Arnor and High King of the two realms in exile.
- [38:19]
Don Marshall
But let's be real here though, Alyn, every king of Arthedain could have made that sort of same claim based on this reasoning. Because they're all descended, right? They're all descended from Isildur.
- [38:28]
Alan Sisto
Exactly. That's the whole point. I mean, the irony here is that if Arnor hadn't split into three in third age 861, Amlaith, the eldest son of Earendur, who would have been King of Arnor at that time could have made a claim when Tyrannon Falastor died without an heir in third age 913. He was the very first childless king in Gondor and It was barely 50 years after the split of Arnor. So if he had been king, he would have been able to make a very valid claim like, hey, your king died without an heir. And I'm the High King anyway because I'm the only one descended from Isildur. But here the problem was that amlaith was only 50 years removed from the split of Arnor and he's trying to deal with the fact that there's splinter kingdoms now of Arthedain, Cardalan and Rhudar.
- [39:11]
Don Marshall
There's just so much going on. But then, what does? What makes Arvedui's claim more persuasive than any of the other kings of the Arthedain or even Arnor before that? It is this second element of his claim, and that is the fact that he is married to On Deher's daughter, Viriel. You remember that name. He married her four years before, in third age, 1940.
- [39:33]
Alan Sisto
Now, why is that a valid reason? Well, as we'll see in his rebuttal to Gondor's rejection of his claim, the scepter went to the oldest child of the king, not the oldest son. At least. If we look at their history in Numenor, Numenor had changed from agnatic primogeniture to absolute primogeniture. That means they'd gone from eldest son to eldest child back in second age 892, some 4,500 years ago. So if Gondor is following the same law of succession as numenor did for 2400 years before its fall, then Firiel should be the ruling queen. Now, before we get to what the Council replies with, which is where you picked up, let's talk about the validity of these claims. Obviously, yes, the Isildur thing is legit. Yeah.
- [40:22]
Don Marshall
The thing for me is that I as a person don't hold much stock in the. This person has my blood and therefore they should be the ruler. Maybe that's because I was raised in a democratic society. Well, elect. So I'm showing my boss for a king. But nobody's handing out swords from lakes or reforging them in Elvis. You know, we don't have that here in the United States or anywhere, really. If your system of government is based on Elven magic here in 2024, we might have a much bigger problem. But validity in terms of the. The ruling and all of this, it does seem as though Furiel should be the one, the. The female queen of all of this.
- [41:04]
Alan Sisto
Well, that's the thing. She should be the queen of Gondor. Which would make our Vedwi. I don't know, the prince consort or something. I suppose.
- [41:10]
Don Marshall
I suppose so, yeah.
- [41:11]
Alan Sisto
You know, but then their son would be the united king of both. Yeah, it's a really interesting claim. But let's see what Gondor has to say, shall we? In what might be one of the most snarky little work email threads I've ever seen.
- [41:26]
Don Marshall
This is as per my last email as it gets. We pick up where we started reading Council of Gondor pretty much is, yeah. Led by the steward, Pelendor rejected both claims in the as the line of Isildur part of a claim. They argue that the line of kings of Gondor is reckoned only through Meneldil's sons because Isildur relinquished the realm. As to the sort of claim based on ferial status as the only child of Ondaher still living, Gondor's reply is that they have determined heritage is only through the sun. So the goalpost just keeps moving and moving and moving and they're just going to get what they want.
- [42:07]
Alan Sisto
Well, that's the thing. I mean, this is the first time anybody from Arnor, or in this case Arthedain, has tried to make a claim on the kingship of Gondor. So, you know, in that amount of time, apparently the rules have changed. And simply put, Pelendur and the rest of the council are notifying arvedui. You are hereby notified that your application for Kingship of Gondor is rejected. You may submit your application again in the future. I mean, now I'm thinking of it not just as an email chain. This is like a job application. And they have rejected him. They're not even going to do an interview. They're like, I'm sorry, we made it clear that our qualifications are X, Y and Z. And you're telling me something totally different.
- [42:48]
Don Marshall
It just doesn't make any sense. You know, we appreciate you taking the time. We understand how much effort it takes to apply for jobs.
- [42:56]
Alan Sisto
Nicely written cover letter. Yeah.
- [43:00]
Don Marshall
Yeah. I'm not terribly hopeful. But, you know, it's arvedui. You know, all of these people, they all have potential claims, but obviously Tolkien, being the author, that he is sticking with what would happen sort of in the natural occurrence of things based in the world.
- [43:17]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, yeah. Very political move. I mean, that's the thing. I think there's a reason why the text says, led particularly by Pelendor the steward, who had really, let's face it, a position of power to solidify and maintain. Because now the death of Ander and his sons, he's in charge until a new king is appointed. And he wants to say who that new king is. He doesn't want our Vedwe coming down, who he has no control over, no influence over. It's interesting. It's interesting. So our Vedue, of course, doesn't give up right away, right? He's like, you know, thank you for. Thank you for your rejection of my application. I'm here to explain why, once again, you need to consider me. Right. He sends back a rebuttal, making several good points. Right. First on the Isildur topic, he reminds him, hey, I know you keep mentioning this Meneldil dude, but Elendil is the head of the line of kings. And then you have to remember that Isildur didn't relinquish that kingship. So I don't know what you mean. Relinquishment, that word. Keep on using that word. I do not think that word means. What do you think it means? Because I don't think Isildur would say he relinquished the royalty in Gondor. I mean, yes, he did give over the rule of Gondor to Meneldil to Anarian's son, but you know, he was still going to be High King. Now second, on the ferial topic, he points back to the Numenorean law of absolute primogeniture. But he does make a very interesting observation that we may have overlooked earlier. Right. He says not been observed in the lands of exile. So I wonder if maybe we have had some eldest children that are daughters but not been mentioned in the histories. Because I mean, think about it. How many generations of kings have we had? It seems like it's all sons. The daughters are never mentioned. Whereas in Numenor they were mentioned.
- [44:57]
Don Marshall
Yeah, we don't even get Aragorn's daughters names going forward in the fourth age. Remember that part is still.
- [45:03]
Alan Sisto
Well, I mean, we do at least get. In some cases we mentioned that somebody had daughters. I get their names. I mean, you know, they're not important enough for that apparently. But it's interesting because in Numenor we do get the names of the daughters, even the daughters who are not going to end up as ruling queens. I'm thinking of Silmarian, for instance, who ends up being the head of the. The kind of the. The matriarch of the lords of Andunie and the, you know, her son ends up being the first lord of Andunier and then the faithful descend from there. Yeah, well, and then we have the ruling queen. So they obviously get names, but we don't get that here. And you kind of think that the odds are that somewhere along the line an eldest child would have been a daughter. I mean, you gotta figure eventually odds. So, yeah, I don't know.
- [45:48]
Don Marshall
Something to consider.
- [45:49]
Alan Sisto
It is interesting. But yeah, I think what this suggests, the fact that it's not always been observed in the lands of exile suggests that maybe there have been some eldest daughters.
- [45:56]
Don Marshall
Yeah, let's Briefly take a look at these points. We've got the original text. First, the Isildur thing. In the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, we learn about what Isildur did. Basically, after the fall of Sauron and the death of his father, he first returned to Gondor, took on the Elendilmir as the King of Arnor and the lordship over both Gondor and Arnor.
- [46:17]
Alan Sisto
Now, he stayed there a year, but when he left for arnor, per footnote 10 of the disaster of the Gladden Fields, he established Meneldil as King of Gondor. But there's nothing anywhere that suggests he was relinquishing his role as High King of both realms. In fact, he was following in his father's role as King of Arnor and High King of both realms while Meneldil was taking over the role that he and his brother Anarion had had as the co rulers of Gondor. And I love this. It's just so detailed.
- [46:44]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah, he put a lot of thought into this because then there's this change in the law of succession. And for that we go to Aldarian and Arendus. Now, in the year892, when Ankalime was 19 years old, she was proclaimed the king's heir. And at that time, Tar Aldarien caused the law of succession in Numenor to be changed. It is said specifically that Tar Aldarian did this for reasons of private concern rather than policy and out of his long resolve to defeat Erendis.
- [47:16]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, I'm gonna have so much fun going through the story of Aeldarion and Erendis next season. In the meantime, let's take a look at Gondor's response to arvedui's detailed rebuttal. Instead, they give the crown to Earnil with full approval of the Dunedin of Gondor. I mean, this is just. They left him on read.
- [47:39]
Don Marshall
They did.
- [47:39]
Alan Sisto
They absolutely just left Arvedi on Reed. Our ved's like, hey, wait a minute. I hear what you're saying. Let me, let me clear this up. And they just ghost him. It is so, so passive aggressive.
- [47:50]
Don Marshall
We're not interested. Yeah, this is, this is the, this is the pettiness of, of Gondorians full.
- [47:55]
Alan Sisto
Remember, this is the same group of people who just a few hundred years ago had a son civil war because one of their kings dared marry a Northman. And basically, you know, the, the racists in Gondor wouldn't have it. And. Yeah, yeah.
- [48:09]
Don Marshall
So coming back to Arnil, he is basically doing the Most he possibly can. He is not only a victorious military leader who defeated the Wain Riders, these are the same ones who killed King Ondaher and his sons. But he is also of royal lineage. His great great grandfather was King Telemechtar Umbardakil. He was descended from the younger brother of King Narmacil ii whose name we've heard a lot.
- [48:32]
Alan Sisto
So he was a royal lineage. You just had to go back a little bit. Now Arved, we wisely didn't keep pushing. I mean it's not like he's going to take Arthedain's mighty army and come force Gondor to give him the crown. He does not have the power to take the crown. He just had to make the argument and it got rejected. So in truth is he's barely keeping his kingdom alive as is. And not for long.
- [48:53]
Don Marshall
Yeah, not for long at all. We get this very foreboding line about his claim never being forgotten and the time of the North Kingdoms is coming to an end. And indeed that is, you know, the point of his name as we talked about in the Philology Fair, last king.
- [49:07]
Alan Sisto
That's right. That was the name given to him at his birth. Again like we talked about in the Philology Fair by Malbeth. Now though, this is a prophecy with a choice. If Gondor chooses the quote unquote less hopeful option then Arved, we gets to change his name and take the High Kingship. I don't know. Maybe we'll speculate about this here. Maybe a little bit. We'll speculate a little bit more on the P5 probably because we'll need to do a little more digging into into some word nerdery. But what might his new name have been if Gondor had accepted his claim? Right. He was going to change his name. What would that name be?
- [49:41]
Don Marshall
I feel like there's some sort of, you know, youngness or newness or renew. Rebrand, birth. So there's very much like a cycle of birth and rebirth.
- [49:50]
Alan Sisto
Renew. Actually Elessar takes one of his titles is Envinatar when he takes the throne, which means renewer. So I almost wonder whether his name might have been in Vignatar or something along those lines. It could be good or, or probably something like Vinyaren, which would be a combination of Vinya which is young or new and Aran meaning king. So new king or young king maybe. I don't know.
- [50:11]
Don Marshall
Okay.
- [50:12]
Alan Sisto
And Vignettear. No, I like it. Like, I mean Aragorn wouldn't be able to take the name in Vinyatar when he became king. But I could see that fitting our vedw Gondor had said, okay, let's do this. Maybe what we'll do in the P5 is speculate about what would have happened had he been king. Had Gondor said, you know what? That's a pretty valid claim. Come on down like a Bob Barker.
- [50:31]
Don Marshall
On the Price is Right sort of thing.
- [50:33]
Alan Sisto
That's right.
- [50:33]
Don Marshall
No, they.
- [50:35]
Alan Sisto
I'll take what's behind door number three. Oh, no, that's. Let's. Let's make a deal. Wrong show.
- [50:40]
Don Marshall
We carry on because they don't. It's just going to be a very, very long time before these kingdoms are reunited. And it was the. The prophecy was made when Arvedui was born. This is third age, 1864. It was not until third age 3019 when Aragorn reunites the kingdoms as king LSR as we just mentioned, nearly 1200 years all because Pelendor and the rest of that council just couldn't allow themselves to be ruled by our Vedui. And just. Oh, yeah, so sad.
- [51:14]
Alan Sisto
Just. I know. You know, Malbeth was obviously a pretty good seer. I mean, he knew what was up with our bedway in the kingdom of Gondor. But do you know his other famous prophecy?
- [51:23]
Don Marshall
So that first one was made in the third age, 1864. Then sometime during the reign of Arvadui from 1964 to 1974 he foretold something else and it's in this lovely alliterative verse. Alan, would you do us a favor?
- [51:41]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, I suppose if it's alliterative. You want me to read it? All right.
- [51:44]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [51:45]
Alan Sisto
Over the land there lies a long shadow Westward reaching wings of darkness the tower trembles to the tombs of kings Doom approaches, the dead awaken for the hour is come for the oathbreakers at the Stone of Erech they shall stand again and hear there a horn in the hills ringing. Whose shall the horn be? Who shall call them from the gray twilight? The forgotten people. The heir of him to whom the oath they swore. From the north shall he come. Need shall drive him. He shall pass the door to the paths of the Dead.
- [52:25]
Don Marshall
Sure enough, when Aragorn called them, they came. And this is. Oh, it's so good. That's why we love this so much. Let's take a look at the passage. From the passing of the Gray Company to the stone. The company came and halted in the dead of night. Then Elrohir gave to Aragorn a silver horn and he blew upon it. And it seemed to those that stood near that they heard a sound of answering horns as if it was an echo in deep caves far away. No other sound they heard, and yet they were aware of a great host gathered all about the hill on which they stood. And a chill wind, like the breath of ghosts came down from the mountains. But Aragorn dismounted, and standing by the stone, he cried in a great voice, oath breakers, why have ye come? And a voice was heard out of the night that answered him as if from far away, to fulfill our oath and have peace. Then Aragorn said, the hour is come at last. Now I go to Pelagir upon Anduin, and ye shall come after me. And when all this land is clean of the servants of Sauron, I will hold the oath fulfilled and ye shall have peace and depart forever. For I am Elessar, Isildur's heir of Gondor.
- [53:46]
Alan Sisto
Man. I love that. I love that. Top down. Go back to those episodes where I covered that. I think that was right after your run. I think it was with James Tauber that I did these chapters. And I remember digging into some of the deeper details on the Oathbreakers and the Stone and all of this. But one thing that I totally missed that line, a chill wind like the breath of ghosts. Is that not one of the most vivid descriptions of a cold mountain wind like that.
- [54:16]
Don Marshall
You can feel the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.
- [54:20]
Alan Sisto
Oh, my goodness. So that is exactly what the prophecy of Malbeth was referring to. Right? The dead awaken. The hour has come for the oath breakers at the Stone of Erech. They shall stand again. I absolutely adore that connection. And the fact that, you know, he makes that. That prediction sometime during arvedui's reign, so 1964 to 1974. So, you know, 1100 years or more before we get to 3019 and the fulfillment of that particular prophecy.
- [54:50]
Don Marshall
Well, when you're a dead ghost hanging out in the mountains, it doesn't really seem like that long.
- [54:54]
Alan Sisto
Really. No, probably not. Any guest from you, based on the Rings of Power television show, who that might be, that speaks when he calls the oath breakers. God, do we want to go on record with this? Because I will. I'm going to go on.
- [55:09]
Don Marshall
I'll go on. This is so. Just for the record, because this is going to be some sort of thing like six years from now. For the record. Yeah, for the record, I would like to say that following the end of season two of the Rings of Power, I do think Theo is going to Be.
- [55:24]
Alan Sisto
That's exactly what I'm saying. They're establishing that relationship between he and Isildur. I got you, bro. I got you covered. And then something will happen. He'll be like, no, not gonna do it. Sorry. And he's gonna be the King of the Dead. I'd originally pegged him as a Nazgul from day one, but I think we're gonna see him as.
- [55:43]
Don Marshall
When I saw him holding the sword, I'm like, oh, yeah, child soldier.
- [55:48]
Alan Sisto
He's a little young for a Witch King. Maybe he's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. Just a fantastic reading, though. Thank you for that. And I love the prophecy from Albeth. Great, great stuff.
- [55:59]
Don Marshall
All right, Alan, do you want to take it away for the next portion of the reading?
- [56:02]
Alan Sisto
I will, indeed. In Gondor also, one king only followed Earnil. It may be that if the crown and the scepter had been united then the kingship would have been maintained and much evil averted. But Earnil was a wise man and not arrogant. Even if, as to most men in Gondor, the realm in Arthedain seemed a small thing for all the lineage of its lords. He sent messages to Arvedui announcing that he received the crown of Gondor according to the laws and the needs of the South Kingdom. But I do not forget the royalty of Arnor, nor deny our kinship nor wish that the realms of Elendil should be estranged. I will send to your aid when you have need, so far as I am able. It was, however, long before Earnil felt himself sufficiently secure to do as he promised. King Arafat continued with dwindling strength to hold off the assaults of Angmar. And Arvedui, when he succeeded, did likewise. But at last, in the autumn of 1973, messages came to Gondor that Arthedain was in great straits and that the Witch King was preparing a last stroke against it. Then Earnil sent his son Earnur north with the fleet as swiftly as he could and with as great strength as he could spare. Too late, before Earnur reached the havens of Lindon, the Witch King had conquered Arthedain and Arvedui had perished. But when Earnur came to the Grey Havens, there was joy and great wonder among both elves and men so great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harborage though both the Harland and the Forlond also were filled. And from them descended an army of power with munition and provision for a war of great kings. Or so it seemed to the people of the north, though this was but a small sending force of the whole might of Gondor. Most of all, the horses were praised. For many of them came from the Vales of Anduin, and with them were riders tall and fair and proud. Princes of Rhovanion. Then Cirdan summoned all who would come to him from Lindon or Arnor. And when all was ready, the host crossed the Lune and marched north to challenge the Witch King of Angmar.
- [58:21]
Don Marshall
Devastating stuff.
- [58:23]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [58:24]
Don Marshall
So were we overstating the case at the end of the last section when we said the Gondor had to wait 1200 years to have a proper king because they all basically refused to accept arvedui's claim? No, no, not really.
- [58:35]
Alan Sisto
We were not overstating the case. I mean, look, Arno was a perfectly fine guy. He was a good king. But let's wait and see what happens. Something that wouldn't have happened or is likely not to have happened had arvedui become king. That's all we're saying. The writer of whatever account is being included here in the appendix openly speculates, suggesting that if Arnor and Gondor had been united here, the kingship might have stuck around.
- [58:59]
Don Marshall
After all, Earnil was very humble and wise. This is kind of in contrast to many in Gondor who saw Arthedain as a small thing, despite the fact that its kings and its descendants are all of Isildur.
- [59:12]
Alan Sisto
Right. And in that wisdom and humility, again, Earnil, not Earnur, let's be clear. Earnil reached out to Arvedwi saying, look, I've accepted the crown of Gondor based on our laws and needs, paragraph 7, subsection 13. You know, it's just a little detail. I don't know why I just broke out, Kermit. It wasn't even intended to be. It was just supposed to be sort of this.
- [59:31]
Don Marshall
No, it's canon now.
- [59:32]
Alan Sisto
Like, you know, I can't take it back now. But yeah, I was trying to just make him a little bit like sort of dweebish, you know, spreadsheet guy, you know, little rules lawyer. So I love it, you know. And you got our venue up to, Ah, the rules. They're more like guidelines.
- [59:47]
Don Marshall
Oh, my God. All right, so Barbossa and Kermit the Frog walk into.
- [59:54]
Alan Sisto
Anyway, so Aaron will, you know, look, I accept the crown of Gondor based on the laws and needs, right? I'm here. I'm a mighty, mighty warrior and they've chosen me, so good on them. But, hey, you know what? I hear you Right. You guys are royal up there, too. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. And I do like, though, that he recognizes the royalty of Arnor. Right. What does he actually say? He says that very specifically, I do not forget the royal royalty of Arnor. He doesn't say Arthedine. He's not talking about these. These, you know, successor kingdoms. He seems to see Arthedine as simply Arnor Part Two. And it was, of course, the more legitimate of the three successor kingdoms.
- [60:33]
Don Marshall
And not only that, he acknowledges basically their kinship and the desire for their kingdoms to one day be, you know, united together. Except, I guess, just not right now, you know?
- [60:43]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, just not right now. Right. Not while I'm going to be king. But, yeah, maybe eventually down the road. Yeah. But he does, of course, promise to send aid when needed to the best of his ability. But that's the problem. It's his ability, not his willingness, that is in question.
- [60:56]
Don Marshall
Yeah. And while Ariphant and after him, Arvedui keep holding off Angmar, the situation is getting desperate. Until third age, 1973, when Arthedyne was on the edge of being wiped out, with the Witch King preparing a last stroke against it. Finally, Earnil sends his son Earnor more on him in a little bit. Sends it north with a fleet and soldiers, however.
- [61:22]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, but it was definitely too late. By the time that the fleet reached Lindon, Arthedain was gone and Arvedui was dead in the Ice Bay of Foragel. He died in March of 1975. Still, we've got to do something with all these ships and soldiers, right?
- [61:39]
Don Marshall
Yeah, there's a lot of ships, and we're not talking about the Rings of Power ones. There are so many boats, ships, that they could barely find a place to anchor all of them. Even with all three havens filled. We've got forand 200 miles to the northwest of the Gray Havens, the Gry Havens themselves. Then you've got harand about 150ish miles southwest of the Gry Havens. And then when the armies disembarked, it was. I mean, it was massive. The positively massive. To the people that are basically remaining here in the North, a provision of a war of great kings.
- [62:14]
Alan Sisto
And, I mean, this is a massive force that's been transported up here, but as a percentage of the armed forces of Gondor, it was tiny. The text says a small sending force. Not only do we have ships and sailors, infantry and munitions, we've got cavalry with their horses. Now, that's interesting, because, you know, I gave Rings of power. A lot of trouble for trying to suggest that they shipped a massive cavalry force. But that had more to do with the fact that they sent a much larger cavalry force than they had quantity of ships. Here we've got ships filling three harbors. So, fine, I'm going to buy it. But not only do we have these cavalry and their riders, the thing to note, though, is that most of them are from the Vales, with riders who were proud princes of Rhovanion. And I feel like this is another thing that Tolkien's doing to connect the Northerners who would later become the Eotheod, who would then, of course, become the Rohirrim. And it also, though, reminded me of something we talked about recently on our discussion about Numenor. The Numenoreans didn't use cavalry, but instead would often use mercenary cavalry when they were having to fight battles in Middle Earth. And the Gondorians seemed to carry on in the same way. Yeah, they figured out how to transport cavalry on ships. But note that the cavalry is described as primarily coming from the Vales of Anduin, and the riders being princes of Rhovanion.
- [63:26]
Don Marshall
Once these huge forces had disembarked, Cirdan basically took command of a combined force of Lindon and Arnor, crossed the loon, and headed off to face off against the Witch King.
- [63:36]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. Now, in the part that we didn't read but talked about a few weeks ago, the Witch King was now kicking his feet up in Fornost, the former capital of Arnor. And then Arthedain just having a little party because he's filled it with evil folk.
- [63:49]
Don Marshall
Yeah, love just filling it up with evil folk. And then, of course, because evil is, in Tolkien's case, often prideful, he didn't wait for them to attack him in a strong, defensible position. He went out to crush them, driving them basically back into the river.
- [64:05]
Alan Sisto
Now, here's the thing. That's not an unlikely result. I mean, just the year before we read, and this was just a few weeks ago, that he, meaning the Witch King, captured Fornost and drove most of the remaining Dunedain over the loon. Among them were the sons of the king. That would be Arvedui. But, man, once again, this is something that we see constantly with Sauron, too. He attacks too early instead of waiting for his forces to build up. And in this case.
- [64:30]
Don Marshall
Well, in this case, we're going to find out what happens after the break.
- [64:53]
Alan Sisto
Now, folks, if you're enjoying the show, I would appreciate it if you would consider supporting. Supporting the PPP by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. Now that's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show better. Every season when you join, you get the best discord community around. That includes live episode recordings that are about 70 or 80 people listening in right now as we do this talk. You also get hangouts every month, get episode post scripts, you get ad free episodes, free merch and more.
- [65:19]
Don Marshall
You can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.
- [65:32]
Alan Sisto
Now. You can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcast and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. But Don, as we come back in, the next reading is yours.
- [65:44]
Don Marshall
Oh thank you so much, Alan. It is a I was gonna say a doozy, but that doesn't quite feel like what this battle is going to be. It feels more like chaos. Let's dive in. But the host of the west came down on him out of the hills of Evendim, and there was a great battle on the plain between Nenuial and the North Downs. The forces of Angmar were already giving way and retreating towards Fornost, when the main body of the horsemen that had passed round the hills came down from the north and scattered them in a great rout. Then the Witch King, with all that he could gather from the wreck, fled northward seeking his own land of Angmar. Before he could gain the shelter of Karn Doom, the cavalry of Gondor overtook him, with Earnor riding at their head. At the same time a force under Glorfindel the Elf came up out of Rivendell. Then so utterly was Angmar defeated that not a man nor an orc of that realm remained west of the mountains. But it is said that when all was lost, suddenly the Witch King himself appeared, black robed and black masked upon a black horse. Fear fell upon all who beheld him, but he singled out the captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight upon him. Earnor would have withstood him, but his horse could not endure that onset, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it. Then the Witch King laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter, the Witch King turned to Flight and passed into the shadows, for night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went. Earnor now rode back. But Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said, do not pursue him. He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall. But instead, a really pretty blonde lady.
- [67:57]
Alan Sisto
Oh, and a little tiny Hobbit. Yeah, it would have helped, though, if Chlorfidel would have added those details. But let's go back to the beginning of that passage. Cirdan shows up. Mama. There goes that man, or elf, as the case may be. He leads the host to the west as they come flying out of the hill. Evendim, engaging in battle on the plain between Lake Evendim and the North Downs. That would be, of course, then, between Anuminous and Fornost.
- [68:22]
Don Marshall
Angmar was already retreating back with their newly captured stronghold of Fornost, but they were intercepted by those horsemen we were talking about. They had basically gone around the hills of Evendim to the north, then came down onto the plains, routing all of the bad guys.
- [68:35]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now, the Witch King did what he could, right? He got a few of his forces together and was beginning to retreat towards Angmar. Now, that's a long retreat from Fornost. But Gondor's cavalry, led by none other than the king's son, Earnur, himself, caught up to him.
- [68:49]
Don Marshall
And as if that weren't enough, we have yet another force that is joining the battle. Glorfindel is here, leading the Elves from Rivendell that came up and attacked as well.
- [68:57]
Alan Sisto
I see it now. Glorfindel joins the chat. Glorfindel, who, of course, has killed multiple Balrogs. I mean, this dude, he is something else. Let's be clear. But interestingly, I was thinking about this. They must have gotten word in Rivendell a while back, because the distance from Fornas to Carn doom is about 25 to 30% less than the distance from Rivendell to Karndum. So they would have had to be, you know, on the way a long time before they must have gotten some word. Maybe Kirdan sent word. Maybe there was a little Osanwe involved there.
- [69:30]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking. Like, a message of, like, hey, we could probably use some help right now. That'd be great, if you don't mind.
- [69:36]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [69:36]
Don Marshall
And then these forces combined to wipe out Angmar so badly that not a man nor an Orc of that realm remained west of the mountains.
- [69:45]
Alan Sisto
Ugh. That's a pretty thorough defeat. I mean, that suggests that every single man and Orc of that realm was at the battle and got slaughtered. Or it suggests that the good guys then went around chasing down every last remaining man or Orc and killed them.
- [70:02]
Don Marshall
I think the. The way he's describing it, for me at least, Tolkien is saying everyone showed up there.
- [70:07]
Alan Sisto
Like the.
- [70:08]
Don Marshall
The women and children back at the home of these Northern folk. They're not about to start a revolt. They don't have the, you know, they don't have the. The manpower.
- [70:15]
Alan Sisto
It also could just be a poetic way of saying, that's true. This, you know, that they were that badly defeated. Yeah, yeah.
- [70:22]
Don Marshall
But the dramatic moment, Alan, is not over. The Witch King has not had his say yet.
- [70:27]
Alan Sisto
No, he's not. He shows up in full Goth gear, right? Black robes, black masks, on a black horse, probably listening to the Smiths.
- [70:37]
Don Marshall
I don't know, Black Sabbath, maybe.
- [70:39]
Alan Sisto
Oh, well, okay. I was thinking something really, really goth, but. Yeah, that works too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Fits completely. He terrifies everyone, of course, but is focusing all of his hatred on one guy in particular, and that's Earnor. And I have to ask you, why do you think that is? He's got Glorfindel to direct his hatred on. Why is he directing his hatred toward Arnor?
- [71:02]
Don Marshall
Because bullies don't pick on people as strong as them.
- [71:06]
Alan Sisto
I like that. No, you're absolutely right, Glorfindel. I mean, if you notice later, oh, Glorfindel's here. I'm out. Right? He's. So, Yeah, I think it's also a little bit of that sort of inherited hatred of the men of Westerness. Right. I mean, Sauron hates Elendil more than anybody, you know, but all the way back to his days in Numin, he's.
- [71:26]
Don Marshall
The worst of the worst. Yeah. It's like, oh, this guy's been bothering me for thousands of years. So the Witch Kings got like, all right, I'm riding straight at this guy, full speed. The text says, Aror would have stood his ground, but his horse couldn't quite manage it, bolting and running away. Yeah.
- [71:43]
Alan Sisto
I mean, he is a horse, even if he's well trained, that's a terrifying thing. But then, as he often did, you know, before being stabbed in the leg by a Hobbit, then stabbed in the face by a woman, the Witch King laughed, his terrible laugh, literally traumatizing everybody in earshot.
- [71:57]
Don Marshall
Yet the laughter, though, turns very quickly into an, oh, okay, I gotta Go that the minute Glorfindel shows up, yeah.
- [72:04]
Alan Sisto
He peace outs right out of there. Can we talk about what must have gone through the Witch King's mind more than a thousand years later when he's chasing a little hobbit dude that he stabbed with a Morgul blade and suddenly Gore freaking Findel shows up and chases him into the river, causing him to lose his horse. I mean, he's got to be. Not that guy again.
- [72:24]
Don Marshall
What is up with that guy again?
- [72:26]
Alan Sisto
First time he's seen him in a thousand years and he chases him into the river.
- [72:29]
Don Marshall
Do you think maybe like in the same way that we think. Why does Tolkien keep having the eagles show up? The Witch King is like, why is Glorfindel always here? Oh, so he turns tail.
- [72:39]
Alan Sisto
Why is he. I don't get it.
- [72:41]
Don Marshall
Why? I don't understand. So obviously he turns tail and he runs as night comes so that no one can even see where he went. Remember, wearing all black. Everything has its advantages. Just ask.
- [72:54]
Alan Sisto
Jay Z does have its advantages. That's right. Not so much in the daytime.
- [72:57]
Don Marshall
And we now get. Yeah, not so much. But we get this great prophecy from Glorfindel as Arnor comes back to his now sort of more chilled out horse and the Elf Lord is saying, hey, don't go after him. He is not coming back here. Stop.
- [73:11]
Alan Sisto
No. And you know what? Thinking of Glorfindel, though, now I'm thinking of the Witch King riding off, being invisible because he's wearing all black on a black horse at night. And I'm thinking of Glorfindel who we meet, but before we meet him, we hear these bells on his horse, like he's got little bells on the harness of his horse. And now I'm mixing the Witch King with bells on the harness of his horse, and we're chasing him because we can hear him getting away.
- [73:36]
Don Marshall
I love that. I absolutely love that.
- [73:39]
Alan Sisto
That would be funny. But of course it doesn't happen that way. So, like you said, you know, the Elf Lord advises him, you know, he's not coming back here, and that's good news. Okay, what next? Well, far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall. Let's discuss that prophecy, including its notorious lack of clarity. The hand of man. Not by the hand of man, but far off yet is his doom. Okay, so it is a ways off.
- [74:05]
Don Marshall
Yep.
- [74:06]
Alan Sisto
More than a millennium later.
- [74:07]
Don Marshall
That's the thing about Tolkien that I have to keep reminding myself is that he uses the word human and man interchangeably. But Every so often when referring to an individual man, he can sort of say, haha, I got you. You thought I was being sexist, but it's actually just this aha. I. Yeah, that's.
- [74:26]
Alan Sisto
I mean, if it was capitalized not by the hand of man capitalized, then you would know he was saying specifically the race of man. Yeah, but the fact that he uses the little M makes me think he is talking about the gender. But he could also be speaking about the race, because of course, he doesn't just fall to Eowyn, he falls to Mary and to Eowyn. And that's the point. You've got a male, but he's not a man. And then you've got somebody of the race of man but who's a woman. It's such an interesting thing. And you know, of course it wouldn't be a prophecy if it was like. And not by the hand of anyone except for Meriatic of the Shire and Eowyn, niece of the King of God. That's not how prophecies work, right?
- [75:08]
Don Marshall
No, Glorfindel, they're so specific right now. You gotta chill out, man. You're freaking out the kings.
- [75:13]
Alan Sisto
What's going on? Okay, now, going on, before we get to the next reading, in the part that we skipped, we do see that Earnur is embarrassed at being driven off and he wants his revenge. That is not a good look. And it's not going to lead to good things.
- [75:25]
Don Marshall
Yeah, it never is in Tolkien's book. But hey, at least Angmar is finally destroyed. However, it is at the cost of Arnor earning the chief hatred of the Witch King. And boy, oh boy, that does not end well.
- [75:39]
Alan Sisto
No, it does not.
- [75:41]
Don Marshall
You know what does end well, though? Alan, you have our final reading of the evening. Would you like to get into it?
- [75:46]
Alan Sisto
Indeed I do. Earnur was a man like his father in valor, but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood, but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king, and retaining his vigor and skill to a later age than was usual. When Earnur received the crown in 2043, the king of Minas Morgul challenged him to single combat, taunting him that he had not dared to stand before him in battle in the North. For that time, Mardil the steward restrained the wrath of the king, Minas Anor, which had become the chief city of the realm since the days of King Telemnar and the residence of the kings was now renamed Minas Tirith. As the city ever on guard against the evil of Morgul Earnur had held the crown only seven years when the Lord of Morgul repeated his challenge taunting the king that to the faint heart of his youth he had now added the weakness of age. Then Mardil could no longer restrain him and he rode with a small escort of knights to the gate of Minas Morgul. None of that riding were ever heard of again. It was believed in Gondor that the faithless enemy had trapped the king and that he had died in torment in Minas Morgul. But since there were no witnesses of his death Mardil, the good steward ruled Gondor in his name for many years now. The descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the kin strife. Whereas since that time, the kings had become jealous and watchful of those near Akin. Often those on whom suspicion fell had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels while others had renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Numenorean blood. So it was that no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood or whose claim all would allow and all feared the memory of the kin Strife knowing that if any such dissension arose again then Gondor would perish. Therefore, though the years lengthened the steward continued to rule Gondor and the crown of Elendil lay in the lap of King Earnil in the Houses of the Dead where Earnur had left it.
- [78:16]
Don Marshall
Mmm. Somber. Yeah, somber. Chilling, all of that. Ugh. It can never be good, can it? All right, so in the paragraph we skipped we learned that the Witch King indeed did not come back to those lands in the North. He escaped and went to Mordor. This is around third age, 1980. This is also when we learn that he was the chief of the Ringwraiths.
- [78:37]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now, 20 years later, after he escaped to Mordor in Third Age 2000, the Ringwraiths leave Mordor via Cirith Ungol and besiege Isildur's old outpost of Minas Ithil, taking it two years later and capturing the palantir there.
- [78:52]
Don Marshall
We read about this in the Council of Elrond as the Lord of Rivendell is basically filling every an in on the history of Gondor. He says in the wearing of the swift years of Middle Earth, the line of Minnel, son of Anarion failed and the tree withered and the blood of the Numenoreans became mingled with that of lesser men. Then the watch upon the walls of Mordor slept and dark things crept back into Gorgoroth. And on a time evil things came forth and they took Minas Ithil and abode in it and they made it into a place of dread. And it is called Minas Morgul. The Tower of Sorcery. Then Minas Anor was named anew. Minas Tirith, the Tower of Guard. And these two cities were ever at war. But Osgiliath, which lay between, was deserted and in its ruins shadows walked.
- [79:43]
Alan Sisto
Man, I love that passage. Fatimir talks about it too, warning Frodo and Sam about that valley. The valley of Minas Morgul passed into evil very long ago and it was a menace and a dread. While the banished enemy dwelt yet far away Ithilien was still, for the most part in our keeping. As you know, that city was once a strong place, proud and fair. Minas Ithil, the twin sister of our own city. But it was taken by fell men whom the enemy in his first strength had dominated and who wandered homeless and masterless after his fall. It is said that their lords were men of Numenor who had fallen into dark wickedness. To them the enemy had given rings of power and he had devoured them. Living ghosts they were, become terrible and evil. After his going, they took Minas Ithil and dwelt there. And they filled it and all the valley about with decay. It seemed empty and was not so for a shapeless fear lived within the ruined walls. Oh, man, that's a creepy passage.
- [80:48]
Don Marshall
He's a ghost story writer, I swear. Tolkien.
- [80:51]
Alan Sisto
That's the thing. He's so good at the. The sort of. The psychological aspects of. Of terror and fear and horror.
- [80:56]
Don Marshall
Yeah. And after they took it, they held it, not expelled while the Third Age lasted. And at the same time, and for good reason most of the Gondorians living in Ithilian moved away. They weren't interested in being there.
- [81:10]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. Suddenly the neighbors are not such great neighbors. We got to get out of this tract. Yeah. So coming back to what we did read, we learn about Arnor, the son of Arnel. Remember when we said Arnil was wise and humble?
- [81:23]
Don Marshall
Yeah. That is. That is not the case for Arnor. He may have been brave like his father, but he was a man of hot mood, shall we say? Only really enjoying himself when he's fighting to the point where he was a better fighter than any of the other men in Gondor. Rather a champion than a captain. Or a king.
- [81:42]
Alan Sisto
And I have to be really clear about that. I mean, yeah, okay, he's talented. He's really good at fighting. I mean, he sounds like such a. A gym guy, right? I mean, yeah, I know the exercise of arms is weapons, but I'm just sitting here watching him, like, you know, doing curls with. With, you know, pieces of armor or something. He's just. Look at how buff I am. And I'm so strong, you know, only pleasure is in fighting. I'm not gonna. I'm not even gonna get married, right. He's just. He's a king. These are not compliments. The fact that, you know, are described as a champion rather than a captain or a king says, you are not a leader of men. You are just a fighter. You are one dimensional. It is just not a good thing to describe a king as rather like something else than a king.
- [82:28]
Don Marshall
Yeah, really, you want to be described as a king that in and of itself has enough description words for sure. But keep in mind, Aror becomes king in the year 2043. This is 68 years after the Witch King has already laughed at him.
- [82:44]
Alan Sisto
Think he would have let this go by now?
- [82:46]
Don Marshall
No, no, he has not forgotten that. It's. He's. He's just that kind of person, I guess. But. But neither had the Witch King. Neither of them went to therapy.
- [82:56]
Alan Sisto
I can't imagine the Witch King going to therapy. That's right. For sure now.
- [83:00]
Don Marshall
Just having some trouble at work. My boss is just. I feel like I'm his slave or something.
- [83:06]
Alan Sisto
So the moment that Arnor gets the crown, 68 years after the Witch King laughed at him, the Witch King challenged him to single combat. Call him a coward for not standing up against his charge back in 1975. And all I can think of is Marty McFly.
- [83:20]
Don Marshall
Oh, for sure. This has the high school bully waiting until you're in their third 30s to. This is just Biff, I think, from. From Back to the Future.
- [83:29]
Alan Sisto
You're right.
- [83:30]
Don Marshall
It's just Biff. From Back to the Future.
- [83:31]
Alan Sisto
I got Biff as the Witch King. Uncle J. Fox is a Aror. Oh, man.
- [83:37]
Don Marshall
Oh, man.
- [83:38]
Alan Sisto
That works. That works.
- [83:39]
Don Marshall
Meantime, the steward, Mardil, who would later be given the epithet Voron Way the Steadfast, was very steadfast and able to talk him out of it this time. And this is around the same time Minas Anor, Tower of the sun, is renamed Minas Tirith, Tower of the Guard.
- [83:55]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now, Minas Anor had been the capital since King Tyrandor moved it. Now we Talked about that last week. Yes, the text says since the days of King Telemnar. But it was Telenar that died in the plague. And it was only after that, as Osgiliath began falling into ruin, that his nephew Tyrandor moved the residents of the Kings there.
- [84:12]
Don Marshall
But Mardil was not successful in restraining earnor A full seven years later. This is in the year 2050, when the witch King sent his challenge again, saying that not only was he a coward, but he was now an old coward.
- [84:29]
Alan Sisto
Okay, maybe I get why he couldn't be held back. I'm beginning to have a little bit of sympathy for Arnor here. No, it's. Dude, it's been 75 years since he laughed at you. And you're doing what now? So, yeah, I totally get this. I mean, I'm feeling what Ar Noor is feeling here. Calling me old. I'm going to come out and I'm going to come fight you now. So he rides off with an escort of knights. Now, I got to say though, for the knights, I'm thinking I'd have called in sick that day. Right? I mean. Where are we going, boss? Oh, we're going to go. You know, we've been given this challenge by the Witch King. I'm going to go fight him in single combat. You're just there to kind of give me a ride. I'm not feeling so great. I think I have a fever. I've tested positive for Covid. I'm staying home today. Yeah, I don't think I want to go to Minas Morgul. No. So they head over there and poof. We never see hear from them again. They're all gone. And let's talk about this, because this is a fun thing to speculate about. What happened to Arnor? What happened?
- [85:27]
Don Marshall
So, I. I know that there is a Lord of the Rings online speculation slash non canonical version of Arnor that I believe he's a boss to be fought at some point.
- [85:40]
Alan Sisto
Well, yeah. So he's. I mean, the game's been out forever, so it's spoilers, I suppose, but they decided to come up with this idea where he got transformed into a Wraith. Not as powerful as an Asgard, of course. In fact, he's subject to the Nazcul and they end up making him this steward of the Witch King in Angmar. So he ends up. Oh, it's really nasty. It goes even further afield than that. I don't want to spoil it completely for people who are playing the later expansions, but it. The idea is that he is stuck serving the Witch King and it's miserable and terrible. I have.
- [86:11]
Don Marshall
I have a question then, Alan, and forgive me if I'm. If I'm speculating too much. Have the Nine Ringwraiths been established within canon at this point? Are there already nine? Or are there simply.
- [86:23]
Alan Sisto
Long time ago, the Nine. The Nine reappear, the Nine reemerge. Yeah, it's all through the Taylor years. I know, yeah.
- [86:30]
Don Marshall
Like, is there a world that exists where you take someone like Arnor and say, okay, this Nazgul is out. You're in. Because, you know, great kings of men, he's still the ruler, technically. So, yeah, yeah, maybe.
- [86:43]
Alan Sisto
I mean, well, they already have the Nine, so I guess you'd have to fire one of them. And I don't know what happens to one of them if you fire them. I mean, I assume they just disappear, but probably. Now, what you're talking about is stuff that we saw in the Shadow of Mordor game where they end up making, like a Ring Wraith. They make helm, hammer, hand, a Ring Wraith. It's sort of like the Nazgul is sort of like Oprah Winfrey. You get a ring and you get a ring, and everybody gets a ring, and everybody's a flipping Ringwraith in that game. It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.
- [87:12]
Don Marshall
And she Lob is a sexy spider.
- [87:15]
Alan Sisto
Don't get me wrong, I love sort of Assassin's Creed. Mordor, which is what I call it. It's really.
- [87:20]
Don Marshall
That's exactly. That's what it is.
- [87:22]
Alan Sisto
I mean, that's really what it is. But, yeah, the idea that. I mean, it's just silliness. Pure silly.
- [87:28]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [87:29]
Alan Sisto
On second thought, let's not go to Shadow of Mordor. Tis a silly place.
- [87:34]
Don Marshall
Well, whatever Arnor's fate actually was, Mardil the good steward, rules in his name in Gondor. Arnor has not married, has no heir, so his father, Earnil, also had no other children.
- [87:48]
Alan Sisto
Right. So who do they turn to? Because this is a whole new branch of the line, right? Because the previous line with Ondaher and his sons is gone. So they can't go back to that line, otherwise they already would have, and Earnil would never have been king. But Earnil only has Earnur, and Earnur has no children. So this line ends. And once again, you just can't help but think, what if they'd taken arvedui's claim, but they couldn't turn to Arvedui now. He'd been dead for 75 years by this point. So. Yeah. And it thus proves Malbeth's point in the prophecy. Had Gondor allowed Arvedwi to take the throne this all would have been avoided and the kings of Gondor would continue to rule and he would have gotten a new name. But we don't know what it was.
- [88:27]
Don Marshall
Oh, it is a tragedy. The line of kings had very few descendants. After all, most of them had been killed during the kin strife. And then after that, the kings would get suspicious and their, you know, potential alternate heirs would occasionally go to Umbar start joining the rebels, maybe.
- [88:45]
Alan Sisto
I mean, you're sitting here minding your own business and then your. Your uncle or your second cousin or whoever's the king comes and sends somebody to take you away. So, yeah, you end up leaving and going to Umbar and joining the rebels. Or you, you know, just renounce your heritage altogether and say, don't worry. I don't even want anything to do with the kingship. I'm down. I'm out. So, no.
- [89:02]
Don Marshall
So this is just Dune. And that's the Harkonnens?
- [89:05]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, kind of.
- [89:06]
Don Marshall
That's the Harkonnens in the Dune franchise, yeah. Oh, incredible.
- [89:11]
Alan Sisto
Nobody can claim the throne as a result of all this. Right. There's nobody who is of pure enough blood and certainly nobody whose claim would be sufficient for all. Because that's sort of the thing here. Yeah, you can say somebody's king but if the people don't accept him as king. Well, that's what happened with the kin strife, Right. They didn't all accept Eldacar as king. That's how Castamir became the usurper. So you can't just have a king who, the council says, this guy's king. If everybody isn't going to get behind him you really have to have consensus. And there's nobody, given that kin strife, who's going to be able to step up and be accepted by everybody. And I gotta say that last bit, the last part of the reading. Right. The very last couple of lines about if any such dissension arose again Gondor would perish. Totally. Just reminds me of the fragility of the kingship. I mean, the civil war just wasn't that long ago and nobody wanted to risk that again.
- [90:03]
Don Marshall
Yeah. No, and I think it's saying something that how Aragorn did it is so great. He goes to Gondor, he earns the respect of the people in Gondor before he even claims the kingship and then he leaves he's saying, I've got other places to be, but I'm glad you guys like me. Maybe I'll be back. And so the stewards basically continue to rule Gondor. Sometimes the king pops in for a little bit, but then leaves. And guess what? We're taking a look at all of those stewards next week as we close the episode here.
- [90:32]
Alan Sisto
So it was that no claimants to the pony could be found who was a pure Butterbur blood or whose claim the common room would allow and all feared the memory of the bag strife. Don, what does Barlow and have for us tonight?
- [90:47]
Don Marshall
Sorry, I keep. That was very, very clever, Alan. I'm gonna. I'll get a tip of the cap to you on that.
- [90:53]
Alan Sisto
Thank you, Don. You know, it is proving to be more and more of a challenge every time. Like, I'm. I'm trying to write these segues. It's getting fun, but it's getting hard in the appendices, that's for sure.
- [91:05]
Don Marshall
I absolutely love it. Well, obviously, we do a lot of what if and speculation here, but I thought we could add a little bit of contextual reference because we've been talking a lot about him this episode, and that is Glorfindel. And the question comes from Cara B. And it's. It's a. It's a small question, but I promise I added way more context and got way more quotes. Is that the same Glorfindel? She asks.
- [91:28]
Alan Sisto
Ah. Aha. Is that the same Glorfindel? What does she mean? Is it the same. Is the same Glorfindel that we see later in the Third Age?
- [91:36]
Don Marshall
Yes. So for a bit of. Of setup for all of this, is the Glorfindel that we see rescuing Frodo in the forest from the Nazgul, the same one that we see killing the Balrog, saving the people of Gondolin during the siege? Are they the same elf? And you know, how and why did all of this come about? And I do want to mention just very briefly before we get into it, because in his essay on fairy stories, Tolkien says that after speculating that since fairy stories are made by men and not by fairies, they must deal with what he calls the Great Escape, the escape from death. He went on to the singular assertion that the human stories of the elves are doubtless full of escape from deathlessness. And I think Glorfindel really encompasses that sort of deathlessness, because he is, for all intents and purposes, the only elf we see in the legendarium. Say, hey, all right, my time has come. I'm back. Let's do this. I've also got something here from Christopher Tolkien. In the Return of the Shadow, Christopher Tolkien says that sometime after the publication of the Lord of the Rings, his father, quote, gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel. This is in the book. And decided that it was a, quote, somewhat random use of a name from the Silmarillion that probably would have been changed had it been noticed sooner.
- [93:00]
Alan Sisto
Ah, so then he retcons that it's the same guy. Okay.
- [93:04]
Don Marshall
Yes. As he does so many times, because we have things like, remember that other elf named Legolas or that other human named Denethor? There are instances of names being repeated. So Christopher here is potentially saying, oh, well, perhaps it's random, perhaps it's another elf. But if he had changed this, may it also have been the same one. Tolkien wrote that Glorfindel is basically sent back to Middle Earth by the valar during the second age. This is around 1600 of the second age. This is when Barad Dur is complete, when Sauron has forged the One Ring. And while Numenor is basically friendly with the elves, this is under the reign of Tar Monastir. And he is sent as. Or at least I think the understanding is that he is sent as a kind of predecessor to the Astari. There are some versions where he is sent together with the. The Blue Wizards. At one point, it is considered that Glorfindel might have even been one of those Blue Wizards, though it's fairly immediately.
- [94:02]
Alan Sisto
I was going to say that sounds like something Tolkien would have said. Nope, scratch this idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [94:07]
Don Marshall
One of those ideas you get at the pub next to CS Lewis going like, no, I think not. There's. There's too much. But it's that escape from deathlessness that I think really stuck with me.
- [94:17]
Alan Sisto
The.
- [94:17]
Don Marshall
The thing that I love about social media these days is that the algorithms can bring you such perfect timing for things. Because I saw this pop up on my for you page on T Tock. This is an interview that JRR Tolkien said that human stories are always about one thing, aren't they? Death, the inevitability of death. And then he pulls out a piece of paper and starts quoting from a very easy Death from Debauvoir. And it's just. It's a very beautiful piece. But Glorfindel, to me, is that sort of escape from deathlessness that the elves are sort of fighting.
- [94:51]
Alan Sisto
So not so much escape from death like we. When you say escape from deathlessness, I'm thinking like the lay of Laythean and Luthien actually becoming human and dying, you're saying more like the escape from death itself. So it's like the escape from death rather than the escape from deathlessness.
- [95:05]
Don Marshall
The escape from deathlessness that is sort of the humanizing of the story. So that when, you know, the Hobbits or the humans are looking at Glorfindel they're just sort of seeing this, you know, elf. But then there is also the death less they come back. And Glorfindel, you'll remember when in his. In his portion with the fight against the Nazgul, he's glowing. Frodo sees this great elf that has sort of become as he is on.
- [95:28]
Alan Sisto
The other side, I believe.
- [95:29]
Don Marshall
Yes, exactly.
- [95:31]
Alan Sisto
Now why is he like that? Well, because he has returned. He's. He's come back. So what you said he came back around second age 1600. Why was he there in the first place? Did we mention for those who don't know how he died in the first place, we've talked about him killing Balrogs. That's actually how he died. At the very end, in the middle of the escape from the Fall of Gondolin. He was trying to sort of shepherd the survivors through the Cirith Thoronath, the pass between the mountains and they were attacked. They were ambushed by Orcs and a Balrog and Glorfindel ends up fighting alone against the Balrog and they both die falling into the abyss. That I believe there's something about the duel is sung and sung of by many songs or something like that. And then his body is rescued by Thrandor and they, they, you know, raise a cairn over it and that stays there until the world has changed. So he dies in the first age. First age 5, 10. So you know, he does have to wait a little while to come back to get a new body and get rehoused. But nowhere near as long as, let's say Feanor and his kin because Feanor is still hanging out there and going to stay there until the end of time.
- [96:37]
Don Marshall
Anyway, I don't think he's coming back.
- [96:39]
Alan Sisto
So. Yeah, so he is the same Glorfindel. So it's Glorfindel in the First Age kills the Balrog, dies killing the Balrog, goes to the Halls of Waiting and then eventually gets sent back to Middle Earth. In Second Age 1600 he ends up in this scene where he ends up scaring off the Witch King laying out this prophecy and Then in the Third Age, he's there to help make sure that Frodo gets across the river when he's being chased by the Nazgul. Like we said, there's that guy again.
- [97:07]
Don Marshall
There's that guy. He just keeps showing up.
- [97:12]
Alan Sisto
Great, great stuff. Well, I love that. And Glorfindel is an awesome note on which to wrap up this episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Please be sure to come back next week when we take a close look at the line of stewards who ruled Gondor for nearly a thousand years.
- [97:27]
Don Marshall
Much like we myself, Matt from the Nerd of the Rings, are taking Shawn's place until a thousand years from now, when Shawn's ancestor or descendants will come back and form the Prancing Pony Podcast anew.
- [97:40]
Alan Sisto
We are the podcast in exile. Yes.
- [97:44]
Don Marshall
No civil wars here though, thankfully. For real, though, no civil wars. All friendship. Alan and I do want to thank all of the members of Team PPP with whom we have not had kin strife with. This is editor Jordan Rannells Barleyman, Becca Davis, Social Media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.
- [98:04]
Alan Sisto
Now, please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you're going to find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony Ponderings, our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including all the really, really cool episode artwork. I was actually thinking about one of her pieces when we talked about the horn that Aragorn blew at the Stone of Erek. I believe that's actually in the design for that chapter. Just fantastic stuff. And her work on the appendices this year is off the charts, so definitely go take a look at that.
- [98:31]
Don Marshall
Love that. You can also visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about books. So if you are interested in a book that we've mentioned, you're going to find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make that purchase, and we do thank you for that.
- [98:47]
Alan Sisto
Indeed. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kir Dance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Karen in the uk, June in Ireland, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, and Keith in Alabama.
- [99:17]
Don Marshall
There's also Erica in Texas, Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California and Joe in Maryland. Thank you all very much for the support indeed.
- [99:46]
Alan Sisto
Thank you.
- [99:47]
Don Marshall
Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. You can subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcasting app.
- [99:55]
Alan Sisto
And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all, your arguments for claiming the Crown of Gondor to Barloman at the prancing pony podcast.com per my last email.
- [100:10]
Don Marshall
If you would like to to have your voice literally heard instead of per my last email, it can be a voice note. You can send us the audio of your per my last email Questions@pod inbox.com Francisco Record your claim to the throne and or your questions there. Though be sure to still send the email to Bart.
- [100:31]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, please do. Now, even though Bartleman's been a lot more reliable lately and will hopefully be a lot less passive aggressive than Contrast Door was, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We will try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, I am Don.
- [100:50]
Don Marshall
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